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State of the O-line

Honoring Earl 34 said:
If the super bowl is what defines success , then I would agree . They were 11-5 last year so some may call that successful .
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When we won those 9 games in a row, one would think, " watch out for these up and coming Texans ". But the talking heads kept saying we didn't play anyone. Maybe a few showed us some love and excitement.

Here's the time to prove all the naysayers wrong as well being talked up like the Chiefs and Mahomes. Go 11-5 with this tough ash schedule.
 
steelbtexan said:
He coached who he was given. I think they wanted Watson to sit his rookie yr to avoid the beating he took behind the putrid OL. (Smartly) Savage sucked so bad that he put Watson in and predictably Watson got hurt.

Like you said that was yesterday lets move forward.
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They wanted Watson to sit first and avoid the beating of a putrid OL, yet he decided to insert him game 1 where our QB got sacked 10 times in the first half?

That makes no sense, even by OB's standards
 
TheKDog said:
Yes he looked good. But he averaged 3.4 yards per carry last year. Let's see if he can keep it up.

Agreed Rankin was bad but I wouldn't be surprised if Andy Reid develops him into a rotational G/C
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I agree Rankin will probably be coached up at least to a good rotational OL by the Chiefs.

But if we can turn that 3.4 YPC Hyde into a strong starting RB here, then what does that say?

It's ok for both teams to win on a trade, they aren't always highway robberies in favor of one team only...
 
vupac1 said:
They wanted Watson to sit first and avoid the beating of a putrid OL, yet he decided to insert him game 1 where our QB got sacked 10 times in the first half?

That makes no sense, even by OB's standards
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It actually does, he didn't want to see Savage have happen what happened to Savage later in the yr.

Serious Head Trauma
 
vupac1 said:
They wanted Watson to sit first and avoid the beating of a putrid OL, yet he decided to insert him after 1 half where our QB got sacked 10 times?

That makes no sense, even by OB's standards
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At this point the carousel is just a normal aspect of OBriens coaching. Never seems to get the starters right. Seantrel is the latest example
 
vupac1 said:
I agree Rankin will probably be coached up at least to a good rotational OL by the Chiefs.

But if we can turn that 3.4 YPC Hyde into a strong starting RB here, then what does that say?

It's ok for both teams to win on a trade, they aren't always highway robberies in favor of one team only...
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Yes but Hyde is a free agent after this year while they have Rankin on a cheap contract for 3-4 years. If Hyde has a good year we'll have to probably give him a decent raise.
 
Speedy said:
Is this the guy who told you Henderson had a solid game week 1?

I take PFF with a grain of salt basically because I don’t know how it is they come up with their grades. I mean, with passer rating, for example, there’s a number that you come up with, but at least I know the numbers that are plugged into the formula. So when a QB has a good passer rating, I know those numbers that are used have to be good. That still doesn’t tell the whole story, of course, but it does help tell the story.

Not the case when grading guys that don’t have traditional stats, like OL.

That said, I didn’t need a bad PFF grade on Henderson to know he had a bad game. I saw that with my eyeballs. They agreed with their grade of him and apparently someone on the Texans did too because he was catching splinters yesterday.

But back to PFF grades, does somebody else have a better way to grade than them? Serious question.
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IMO, when you combine PFF and Football Outsiders, you get an overall picture.
PFF doesn't take into account the blocking of the TEs and RBs.
And we also need to watch the game.

For example, IMO, when it's third and long, depending on field position and the score of the game and the time left, the QB could hold the ball longer trying to make a play.
A sack could be meaningless, since the offense is going to punt anyway.

Sometimes, stats are meaningless.
For example, third down (let's say third and long), the QB throw an INT down the field.
It's like a punt.
If he takes a sack. They'll punt just the same.
So, it all depends on situational football.
And stats often don't account for that.
 
https://texanswire.usatoday.com/2019/09/16/bill-obrien-explains-roderick-johnson-started-rt/

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Bill O'Brien explains why Roderick Johnson started over Seantrel Henderson at right tackle
 
steelbtexan said:
Rankin had a bad habit of his 1st movement was always standing up. It's a hard habit to break.
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Couldn’t be coached up to keep pad level down? Highly doubt it. Devlin does not connect, Hell he can’t get down and breath @ the same time. What a f’n joke!
 
I'd just sit back and be amazed if OB once had an audible in play for when Watson sees big blitz......maybe a nice and fast 2 step drop with the receivers making themselves available via short quick slant in and out routes. At the moment, Watson can see a blitz and it's still same old long developing passing routes as the option and if he doesn't see anyone getting open tuck and run if there's an opening.....only problem, there's no one open and the escape lanes are suddenly filled with defenders. At some point, OB is going to have to learn how to beat an obvious blitz situation.

My gut tells me Watson could execute this type of play with no problem and can probably identify NFL blitzes. Bottom line, burn the blitz a couple times and defenses will think twice about exposing themselves.
 
Fulton play was most disappointing followed by Martin then Johnson. Howard seems pretty equal to Tunsil, hence most the pressure leaks in from right side so expect that to continue as teams target Texans soft spot. Just a matter of time until Scharping starts RG.
 
beerlover said:
Fulton play was most disappointing followed by Martin then Johnson. Howard seems pretty equal to Tunsil, hence most the pressure leaks in from right side so expect that to continue as teams target Texans soft spot. Just a matter of time until Scharping starts RG.
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Hopefully Johnson grows as a starter and Scharping begins starting and plays well. Both of these things have an above avg chance of happening. Except Devlin is ding the coaching.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
I'd just sit back and be amazed if OB once had an audible in play for when Watson sees big blitz......maybe a nice and fast 2 step drop with the receivers making themselves available via short quick slant in and out routes. At the moment, Watson can see a blitz and it's still same old long developing passing routes as the option and if he doesn't see anyone getting open tuck and run if there's an opening.....only problem, there's no one open and the escape lanes are suddenly filled with defenders. At some point, OB is going to have to learn how to beat an obvious blitz situation.

My gut tells me Watson could execute this type of play with no problem and can probably identify NFL blitzes. Bottom line, burn the blitz a couple times and defenses will think twice about exposing themselves.
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Its not the playcall. Check downs & short dump off routes are built into like 90% of pass plays....yes even BoB's. I challenge anyone to look at every 1 of these sacks and pressures in these last 2 games and count how many times DW4 hasn't had a WR, RB or TE he can dump or throw the ball to within 0-8 yards of him on a blitz. You won't find very many instances if any at all. He has to take what the defense is giving him MORE. This is how the sacks & hits he took after the Cowboys game somewhat slowed last year..........which, considering he still took 65 sacks last year, its somewhat frightening to think of the pace he was on before that slow down.

Presnap, DW4 needs to do more to get the defense to reveal itself...change up his snap counts...his cadence. All these things help him & the WR's with their sight adjustments so that what you're stating in the bold can actually happen. The biggest way BoB can help him is by getting the play in earlier & perhaps doing some drastic tendency breaking by running more up tempo b/c when you do that the defense can't disguise it's blitzes as effectively. The 1st thing doesn't seem to really be an issue....for the most part anyway. The 2nd thing he can help with simply just authorizing & trusting DW4 more in running it...but what we have seen is that what happens on 1st down largely dictates that. If its 2nd & long, uptempo is a no-go.
 
Mr teX said:
Its not the playcall. Check downs & short dump off routes are built into like 90% of pass plays....yes even BoB's. I challenge anyone to look at every 1 of these sacks and pressures in these last 2 games and count how many times DW4 hasn't had a WR, RB or TE he can dump or throw the ball to within 0-8 yards of him on a blitz. You won't find very many instances if any at all. He has to take what the defense is giving him MORE. This is how the sacks & hits he took after the Cowboys game somewhat slowed last year..........which, considering he still took 65 sacks last year, its somewhat frightening to think of the pace he was on before that slow down.

Presnap, DW4 needs to do more to get the defense to reveal itself...change up his snap counts...his cadence. All these things help him & the WR's with their sight adjustments so that what you're stating in the bold can actually happen. The biggest way BoB can help him is by getting the play in earlier & perhaps doing some drastic tendency breaking by running more up tempo b/c when you do that the defense can't disguise it's blitzes as effectively. The 1st thing doesn't seem to really be an issue....for the most part anyway. The 2nd thing he can help with simply just authorizing & trusting DW4 more in running it...but what we have seen is that what happens on 1st down largely dictates that. If its 2nd & long, uptempo is a no-go.
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I don't totally disagree with your post... would LOVE for DW4 to change up his cadence. Would irk me when Peyton would do that to us and we'd always bite and show where the blitz is coming from. Would love to see DW4 add that to his game.

But at the same time, I took you up on your challenge. Didn't take along, this is the first sack of the Jax game. I took a screenshot of when DW4 recognized the free blitzer and there's no where to throw. All receivers have their back to the ball, except for the RB, but he's well covered.

24ec49487b.png
 
dream_team said:
I don't totally disagree with your post... would LOVE for DW4 to change up his cadence. Would irk me when Peyton would do that to us and we'd always bite and show where the blitz is coming from. Would love to see DW4 add that to his game.

But at the same time, I took you up on your challenge. Didn't take along, this is the first sack of the Jax game. I took a screenshot of when DW4 recognized the free blitzer and there's no where to throw. All receivers have their back to the ball, except for the RB, but he's well covered.

24ec49487b.png
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And even then the RB is not evening looking to receive the ball. He's looking at the defender. Lol
 
dream_team said:
I don't totally disagree with your post... would LOVE for DW4 to change up his cadence. Would irk me when Peyton would do that to us and we'd always bite and show where the blitz is coming from. Would love to see DW4 add that to his game.

But at the same time, I took you up on your challenge. Didn't take along, this is the first sack of the Jax game. I took a screenshot of when DW4 recognized the free blitzer and there's no where to throw. All receivers have their back to the ball, except for the RB, but he's well covered.

24ec49487b.png
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Similar on a sack against the Saints.

Sack.jpg

4 receivers in the pattern, 2 on each side of the field, close proximity to one another with both pairs, and all 4 at or outside the numbers. Not a single white jersey in the middle of the field.

Not saying that open, check down guys aren't missed by DW4. I think a lot of times too, that instead of taking the check down, he keeps waiting and waiting to try and hit the HR. But a lot of these route combos are just pure garbage.
 
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Speedy said:
Similar on a sack against the Saints.

View attachment 4649

4 receivers in the pattern, 2 on each side of the field, close proximity to one another with both pairs, and all 4 at or outside the numbers. Not a single white jersey in the middle of the field.

Not saying that open, check down guys aren't missed by DW4. I think a lot of times too, that instead of taking the check down, he keeps waiting and waiting to try and hit the HR. But a lot of these routes combos are just pure garbage.
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On this particular play Watson has to get rid of the ball. Trust in his receiver.

The receiver on the left was open, the defender had his back to that receiver. He must've thought the receiver was going deep.

Let it fly Watson. Let it fly
 
Dejaview said:
Yep. It’s just a personal observation but Rankin just doesn’t look the part. His body seems too round or something to me. I wanted too see more of a mean streak from him.
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That may be true but if it is, then it's something they should have known before they drafted him in the 3rd round last year
 
Speedy said:
Similar on a sack against the Saints.

View attachment 4649

4 receivers in the pattern, 2 on each side of the field, close proximity to one another with both pairs, and all 4 at or outside the numbers. Not a single white jersey in the middle of the field.

Not saying that open, check down guys aren't missed by DW4. I think a lot of times too, that instead of taking the check down, he keeps waiting and waiting to try and hit the HR. But a lot of these route combos are just pure garbage.
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I have to ask this dumb question:

Why consistently draw up plays with no WR/TE in the middle?
 
dream_team said:
I don't totally disagree with your post... would LOVE for DW4 to change up his cadence. Would irk me when Peyton would do that to us and we'd always bite and show where the blitz is coming from. Would love to see DW4 add that to his game.

But at the same time, I took you up on your challenge. Didn't take along, this is the first sack of the Jax game. I took a screenshot of when DW4 recognized the free blitzer and there's no where to throw. All receivers have their back to the ball, except for the RB, but he's well covered.

24ec49487b.png
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This doesn't negate my point about him having a route he can check it down immediately to within 8 yards to avoid the sack though. That's not a RB. That's Coutee..matched up with a LB that DW4 is looking to get the ball to immediately; you can tell by where his head is looking to....SHOULD be an instant mismatch in our favor.

Aside from that though, sight adjustments aren't just on the QB. The WR has to see the same thing. This particular situation, Coutee took a little too long getting off the LOS & the outstretched arm of the LB...he was trying to shake & **** at the top of the route. He should've came straight off the LOS across the LB face DW4 would've been able to get him the ball immediately.
 
Texansballer74 said:
On this particular play Watson has to get rid of the ball. Trust in his receiver.

The receiver on the left was open, the defender had his back to that receiver. He must've thought the receiver was going deep.

Let it fly Watson. Let it fly
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Exactly. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this route combination. twins left with Akins slightly flexed out up top with WFV. Standard look. 2 guys inside the numbers, 2 guys outside the numbers. Both WR's down on the left inside & outside the numbers are wide open & DW4 for his part..the ball should've been out by the time he sets up with his hitch step. If you watch the actual play, Stills, as WR's often do, points out the blitzer for DW who is right in front of him. The sight adjustment called for him to break his route off & Stills did just that; he broke it off to a 5 yard out & is already looking back at DW4 out of the break. On the bottom, (Nuk) is coming out of his break 5 yards deeper than Stills..perhaps this is just a repoire thing that he has to continue to develop with Stills.........but It appears more that DW4's eyes had just probably already come down at the rush in this situation. The pressure did get on him quick..but he still had time to get the ball out to Stills on that play.

He also had Akins up top...who also ran a 5 yard out, but then broke back inside & was wide open once DW4 pulled the ball down. He has to get better here to take that next step.
 
Mr teX said:
Exactly. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this route combination. twins left with Akins slightly flexed out up top with WFV. Standard look. 2 guys inside the numbers, 2 guys outside the numbers. Both WR's down on the left inside & outside the numbers are wide open & DW4 for his part..the ball should've been out by the time he sets up with his hitch step. If you watch the actual play, Stills, as WR's often do, points out the blitzer for DW who is right in front of him. The sight adjustment called for him to break his route off & Stills did just that; he broke it off to a 5 yard out & is already looking back at DW4 out of the break. On the bottom, (Nuk) is coming out of his break 5 yards deeper than Stills..perhaps this is just a repoire thing that he has to continue to develop with Stills.........but It appears more that DW4's eyes had just probably already come down at the rush in this situation. The pressure did get on him quick..but he still had time to get the ball out to Stills on that play.

He also had Akins up top...who also ran a 5 yard out, but then broke back inside & was wide open once DW4 pulled the ball down. He has to get better here to take that next step.
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Free education
 
Mr teX said:
This doesn't negate my point about him having a route he can check it down immediately to within 8 yards to avoid the sack though. That's not a RB. That's Coutee..matched up with a LB that DW4 is looking to get the ball to immediately; you can tell by where his head is looking to....SHOULD be an instant mismatch in our favor.

Aside from that though, sight adjustments aren't just on the QB. The WR has to see the same thing. This particular situation, Coutee took a little too long getting off the LOS & the outstretched arm of the LB...he was trying to shake & **** at the top of the route. He should've came straight off the LOS across the LB face DW4 would've been able to get him the ball immediately.
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So in that particular play, who exactly can he check it down too immediately? No one came open until the blitzer already has a hand on Watson.

I see a lot of "shoulds" in your post, which I agree with would have been better options to take, but didn't change reality in that particular play. Once Watson recognized the blitz, there was absolutely no one to throw to.
 
dream_team said:
So in that particular play, who exactly can he check it down too immediately? No one came open until the blitzer already has a hand on Watson.

I see a lot of "shoulds" in your post, which I agree with would have been better options to take, but didn't change reality in that particular play. Once Watson recognized the blitz, there was absolutely no one to throw to.
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Well my original post was in response to someone saying that the plays being called only have guys running long developing routes, which, as demonstrated in your clip and the other below it shows that to be not true. There is always someone he has the option to throw it short or check it down to on pretty much every pass play...so it’s not really play design.

The defense gets paid too though & they will win sometimes. Your particular clip the defense just won...but that only happened b/c they got a little help from Coutee who as we all know is basically still a rook by a games played standpoint and in a bunch of ways is still developing repoire with DW4.

They did just enough to prevent DW4 from unloading it as quickly as he would’ve liked.

like I said, sight adjustments are on both the qb and the WR’s & just that little hesitation by Coutee was enough for the defense.
 
TheKDog said:
Not sure how you can say I don't want him. To succeed. I've said many times he looks like a solid prospect.

But he will protect Watson worse than Kelemente who at least is an average veteran. That's the priority. Dillard is on the bench for the eagles and I think they know what they're doing
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Ok I'm very, very confused. You wanted us to draft Dillard even though he would be a rookie and that would mean either he gets thrown out there as a rookie trying to play LT, he gets thrown out there as a rookie trying to play some other position and most likely Davenport or Kalil would be the LT or he rides the bench and then he is no help at all this season and Watson gets killed. It was also your argument against Tunsil that Dillard would have been cheaper. But now you say that protecting Watson is the priority? Also that the Eagles are right to have Dillard ride the bench? Even though the only reason they can do that is because they have a HoF LT. Dude you are really contradicting yourself here and giving lots of evidence to TK's you don't want Howard to succeed theory. Or at least you don't want him to succeed as a Texan.
 
Mr teX said:
Well my original post was in response to someone saying that the plays being called only have guys running long developing routes, which, as demonstrated in your clip and the other below it shows that to be not true. There is always someone he has the option to throw it short or check it down to on pretty much every pass play...so it’s not really play design.

The defense gets paid too though & they will win sometimes. Your particular clip the defense just won...but that only happened b/c they got a little help from Coutee who as we all know is basically still a rook by a games played standpoint and in a bunch of ways is still developing repoire with DW4.

They did just enough to prevent DW4 from unloading it as quickly as he would’ve liked.

like I said, sight adjustments are on both the qb and the WR’s & just that little hesitation by Coutee was enough for the defense.
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Well I do generally agree that there's usually a check down guy in the play, but I'm of the opinion BOB should do more to help against blitzes. Because as of now, and all last season, we were poor against handling blitzes.

Have more guys running "quick" routes, not just one. When was the last time you saw a guy run a slant?

Do more designed plays to break a blitz, not just the occasional WR screen. What about an RB screen? Draw? 3-step drop?

If you & I can see that Watson should modify his cadence, why can't the coaches?
 
maverick512000 said:
Ok I'm very, very confused. You wanted us to draft Dillard even though he would be a rookie and that would mean either he gets thrown out there as a rookie trying to play LT, he gets thrown out there as a rookie trying to play some other position and most likely Davenport or Kalil would be the LT or he rides the bench and then he is no help at all this season and Watson gets killed. It was also your argument against Tunsil that Dillard would have been cheaper. But now you say that protecting Watson is the priority? Also that the Eagles are right to have Dillard ride the bench? Even though the only reason they can do that is because they have a HoF LT. Dude you are really contradicting yourself here and giving lots of evidence to TK's you don't want Howard to succeed theory. Or at least you don't want him to succeed as a Texan.
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Dillard would struggle as a rookie but not too the extent of Howard, who just put up a 40 grade at guard

If the preseason is an indication I would think Dillard could be near average as a rookie in pass protect, but would struggle in the run (who cares)

And even with Tunsil, Watson isn't protected. Seantrel and Howard are bad. OBrien schemes are terrible. One guy can't protect the QB


And with the loss of capspace and picks and obrien as coach, he won't be protected anytime soon.

This is a multi year failure going back to obrien running off Brooks and Jones, and it won't be fixed in one year
 
dream_team said:
Well I do generally agree that there's usually a check down guy in the play, but I'm of the opinion BOB should do more to help against blitzes. Because as of now, and all last season, we were poor against handling blitzes.

Have more guys running "quick" routes, not just one. When was the last time you saw a guy run a slant?

Do more designed plays to break a blitz, not just the occasional WR screen. What about an RB screen? Draw? 3-step drop?

If you & I can see that Watson should modify his cadence, why can't the coaches?
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Because Modifying your cadence isnt necessarily something you coach...it’s purely a qb thing...a wrinkle the qb throws in once in a while to keep the defense honest and on their toes. Aside from that we don’t know that they aren’t telling him to do that more. I saw him do it a few times in the NO game...not so much in the Jax game. Coaches mostly have to be focused on developing the overall plan of attack and understanding how the defense is trying to attack the offense.

Go watch the 2nd drive of the Jax game. This is a great example of how DW4 has to be in consistently beating the blitz with short throws and just taking what the defense gives him most times. It ended with a calculated intermediate shot to the end zone That would’ve went for a TD, but the chemistry between Duke and DW4 still isn’t quite there yet. Nevertheless that’s what has to be done...take the short stuff with calculated shots...that particular play was beautifully designed to where Duke came wide open. He turned aggressively outside looking for the ball, DW4 threw it inside towards the Pilon.
 
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This contradicts absolutely everyt
TheKDog said:
Dillard would struggle as a rookie but not too the extent of Howard, who just put up a 40 grade at guard

If the preseason is an indication I would think Dillard could be near average as a rookie in pass protect, but would struggle in the run (who cares)

And even with Tunsil, Watson isn't protected. Seantrel and Howard are bad. OBrien schemes are terrible. One guy can't protect the QB


And with the loss of capspace and picks and obrien as coach, he won't be protected anytime soon.

This is a multi year failure going back to obrien running off Brooks and Jones, and it won't be fixed in one year
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Lol..this guy. Your critique directly contradicts what Wade Smith and Seth Payne have said about Howard’s performance against Jax. These are 2 guys who would most definitely be in the know and who played on opposite sides of the ball.

This is why you keep losing Cred. You really do want to see this team fail.
 
Mr teX said:
Because Modifying your cadence isnt necessarily something you coach...it’s purely a qb thing...a wrinkle the qb throws in once in a while to keep the defense honest and on their toes. Aside from that we don’t know that they aren’t telling him to do that more. I saw him do it a few times in the NO game...not so much in the Jax game. Coaches mostly have to be focused on developing the overall plan of attack and understanding how the defense is trying to attack the offense.

Go watch the 2nd drive of the Jax game. This is a great example of how DW4 has to be in consistently beating the blitz with short throws and just taking what the defense gives him most times. It ended with a calculated intermediate shot to the end zone That would’ve went for a TD, but the chemistry between Duke and DW4 still isn’t quite there yet. Nevertheless that’s what has to be done...take the short stuff with calculated shots...that particular play was beautifully designed to where Duke came wide open. He turned aggressively outside looking for the ball, DW4 threw it inside towards the Pilon.
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We can continue to discuss this on and on, but the bolded is the truth. We have no clue what the coaches are teaching Deshaun. They could be coaching Deshaun to be more patient in the pocket and trust the protection for all we know. I think we all agree Deshaun needs to get the ball out quicker. Are the coaches doing a poor job at prepping DW for that? Or is DW simply not taking what the defense is giving? We'll never know.
 
Mr teX said:
This contradicts absolutely everyt


Lol..this guy. Your critique directly contradicts what Wade Smith and Seth Payne have said about Howard’s performance against Jax. These are 2 guys who would most definitely be in the know and who played on opposite sides of the ball.

This is why you keep losing Cred. You really do want to see this team fail.
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And others said otherwise.
 
dream_team said:
We can continue to discuss this on and on, but the bolded is the truth. We have no clue what the coaches are teaching Deshaun. They could be coaching Deshaun to be more patient in the pocket and trust the protection for all we know. I think we all agree Deshaun needs to get the ball out quicker. Are the coaches doing a poor job at prepping DW for that? Or is DW simply not taking what the defense is giving? We'll never know.
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I don't think it's crazy to think Watson is poorly coached when his coach is bad at everything else
 
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