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State of the O-line

I think at this point BO'b has done all he can. He even brought in a new, well respected QB coach.

Watson isn't seeing the blitz. Until he does, nothing anyone can do.

Only other thing I can think of is to always have a guy, TE, RB, whatever, that is a very quick pass for 3-5 yard gain and just call that play as often as he does the whole "RB up the middle play" yeah defenses will pick up on what they are doing but it might slow the blitz down. I think the not seeing the blitz is compounded by Watson himself admitting he likes the home run hit but given how often that is the play I think BoB likes the home run hit to. Only other reason why it SEEMS all of our passing plays are designed to get 15+ yards instead of the 5-10 ones Brady use to use to chew up defenses. Of course Brady also had Gronk to help make those work. Its why I was, and still am, hoping Warring can be something special.
 
I think it's both Mahomes' talent in Reid's system. Alex Smith, known by some as Mr. Checkdown, still managed 4000+ yds, 26 TDs vs. 5 (that's FIVE) INTs in his last year under Andy Reid. Now you put a young gunslinger like Mahomes in that system and you get 5000 yds and 50 TDs. Somehow I don't think he's that prolific this season. But that's just me.

My point is it's both Reid's system and Mahomes talent. Don't overlook the fact that Reid sat Mahomes an entire year to let him learn - after spending significant draft capital to move up to snag him - to make sure he (Mahomes) had all the concepts down cold before handing him the starter's job.

I do find it interesting that the Chiefs 4 losses were against the Rams, Patriots, Seahawks, and Chargers. All top tier QBs.


Absolutely his system gives him better stats. That doesn't mean mahomes wouldn't be great elsewhere, but in the OBrien system his box score might look weaker even if his PFF grades (like Watson's) stay high.

IMO the stat that teams lose more against elite QBs isn't an interesting one. That's why they are elite.

The better question is if they do better compared to the rest of the league vs good QBs. If you can be at or above .500 vs the elite that's pretty good
 
Top 10 OG Pass Block Win Rate
1. Joel Bitonio, Browns, 100%
2. Joe Thuney, Patriots, 100%
3. Tytus Howard, Texans, 100%
4. Will Hernandez, Giants, 98%
5. Billy Turner, Packers, 98%
6. Lane Taylor, Packers, 97%
T7. Zack Martin, Cowboys, 97%
T7. Joe Dahl, Lions, 97%
9. Larry Warford, Saints, 96%
T10. David DeCastro, Steelers, 96%
T10. Jamil Douglas, Titans, 96%


https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...s-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard
 
QB coach is Carl Smith sooooooo….

Yep, and Smith did pretty good with Wilson.

I consider Wilson and Watson to be on par talent wise.

Watson needs to learn how to take what's given to him.

He's young and with 2 rookie OL starting you get what we saw Sunday. The OL did a decent job and should get better as the season progresses.
 
Yep, and Smith did pretty good with Wilson.

I consider Wilson and Watson to be on par talent wise.

Watson needs to learn how to take what's given to him.

He's young and with 2 rookie OL starting you get what we saw Sunday. The OL did a decent job and should get better as the season progresses.

None of this is OBriens job?
 
Top 10 OG Pass Block Win Rate
1. Joel Bitonio, Browns, 100%
2. Joe Thuney, Patriots, 100%
3. Tytus Howard, Texans, 100%
4. Will Hernandez, Giants, 98%
5. Billy Turner, Packers, 98%
6. Lane Taylor, Packers, 97%
T7. Zack Martin, Cowboys, 97%
T7. Joe Dahl, Lions, 97%
9. Larry Warford, Saints, 96%
T10. David DeCastro, Steelers, 96%
T10. Jamil Douglas, Titans, 96%


https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...s-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard

Still didn’t play well against the Jags. His run blocking is something to be desired.
 
Only other thing I can think of is to always have a guy, TE, RB, whatever, that is a very quick pass for 3-5 yard gain and just call that play as often as he does the whole "RB up the middle play" yeah defenses will pick up on what they are doing but it might slow the blitz down. I think the not seeing the blitz is compounded by Watson himself admitting he likes the home run hit but given how often that is the play I think BoB likes the home run hit to. Only other reason why it SEEMS all of our passing plays are designed to get 15+ yards instead of the 5-10 ones Brady use to use to chew up defenses. Of course Brady also had Gronk to help make those work. Its why I was, and still am, hoping Warring can be something special.
I agree. This is why I posted earlier that Duke Johnson should have that role. 3-5 better than chunking ball away, throwing int, or getting QB hurt.
 
No I don’t “stand up” for him. I just look at everything and unlike certain posters here, I don’t lay everything at his feet.

It is easy to misinterpret people on a message board. But I do take you as a "defend O'Brien at all costs" guy. The polar opposite to KDog. I could easily be wrong, but just letting you know, that is how I interpret you.
 
No I don’t “stand up” for him. I just look at everything and unlike certain posters here, I don’t lay everything at his feet.

You kinda do big homie. I mean his offense was terrible against the Jaguars. And even then you tried to find the light at the end of the tunnel. Which is all good but dang we looked terrible on that side of the ball.
 
This is a serious question so I understand some folks point of view. When tape shows open guys and a play to be made and the wrong guy is targeted, drops the ball, or a misfire, is it:
- Bad coaching
- Bad execution by the players
- Bad players in the first place

It is pretty hard to tell apart #1 and #2 without being in the room hearing how these guys are coached up. In the end this is getting to be all BOB as everyone else is gone except Cal and the players so it is time to put up or shut up. I actually feel when watching discussions the frustration occurs when people don't admit the players have a role here too as I am sure they are coached on some of these errors. I still lean to say BOB has to do better and get through or get smarter guys who take coaching. Anyway, just watching the debates, and wanted to chime in.
 
This is a serious question so I understand some folks point of view. When tape shows open guys and a play to be made and the wrong guy is targeted, drops the ball, or a misfire, is it:
- Bad coaching
- Bad execution by the players
- Bad players in the first place

It is pretty hard to tell apart #1 and #2 without being in the room hearing how these guys are coached up. In the end this is getting to be all BOB as everyone else is gone except Cal and the players so it is time to put up or shut up. I actually feel when watching discussions the frustration occurs when people don't admit the players have a role here too as I am sure they are coached on some of these errors. I still lean to say BOB has to do better and get through or get smarter guys who take coaching. Anyway, just watching the debates, and wanted to chime in.

I think players have a job absolutely and they can screw up, but when
Watson looks like crap and the offense scores 13 points despite tons of talent, I have to question the schemes and situations they're put in.

I'm not a fan of freeze framing the split second a wr is open and saying the ball should already be there. I don't think that's how teams analyze plays.


Patdstat and rivers mccown have had a good back and forth on this in twittter. Mccown comes down to the side that scheme is bad and has a good explanation why. Ringer just did something similar too.
 
Along with release time and movement patterns, scheme and coaching can also help a team overcome a talent deficiency on the offensive line. And for a former quarterback like Orlovsky, that’s been the most frustrating part of the Texans’ first two games: The coaching staff is making the same mistakes that plagued it last season. Houston had significant problems picking up blitzes in 2018, and that’s continued with Tunsil, running back Duke Johnson, and the rest of its new personnel up front. During the Texans’ loss to the Saints, New Orleans consistently sent blitzes on the side opposite the tight end, and the Texans failed to pick up those pressure packages. “They can’t pass it off well,” Orlovsky says. “Part of me was a little bit understanding with the new tailback and the new tackle. But it’s the same story. It has to fall on Bill O’Brien at some point.”


In the meantime, though, there are ways that O’Brien and the Texans can find a balance between giving Watson the freedom to push the ball downfield and doing a better job of protecting him. One method is with more heavy sets and max-protection looks that feature only two or three receivers running routes. Houston tries to create deep play-action shots on early downs, but too often, those designs come out of sets with three receivers and a single tight end. Which leaves the Texans blockers at a disadvantage. Orlovsky says that against the Saints, O’Brien used designs that asked a tight end to block All-Pro defensive end Cameron Jordan on two separate occasions. “That’s just stupid,” Orlovsky says. “I don’t care who the tight end is.” The Texans have their share of max-protection, play-action shot plays in the playbook. It’s just a matter of leaning on them more than they have in the past.

ezgif.com_optimize__27_.gif

When the Texans do choose to put three receivers on the field and spread defenses out, they generally do it in ways that leave them vulnerable. In most situations, an offense’s rules for dealing with the blitz are fairly uniform: Some combination of the quarterback and the offensive line (the roles vary by team) will designate a specific linebacker pre-snap as the “Mike.” That player, along with the front four defenders, becomes the responsibility of the offensive line. If a different defender blitzes after the Mike is assigned, it’s the quarterback’s job to throw the ball “hot” to the receiver in the vacated area.

Experienced lines can skillfully tweak protection schemes and rules each week for specific plays and opponents, a tactic the Packers used regularly as their linemen spent more time together. “We’d used to have little side meetings with Aaron and the offense where we’d sit down on Saturdays and say, the coaches really like this play, but we’re not really digging it that much because we think there’s a weakness here,” Lang says. “We used to not have two different game plans, but have modified game plans as players.” For the new-look Texans, though, that would be like asking junior high students to take a calculus test. At this point, Houston is botching even basic “hot” rules at an alarming rate.

ezgif.com_optimize__25_.gif


The Texans’ best hopes moving forward involve Watson heaving deep balls and keeping plays alive, but if they keep going about it this way, he won’t be on the field to do it. Houston has to find ways to protect Watson—and ways to protect him from himself.

More here:

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/...s-deshaun-watson-pass-protection-quarterbacks
 
This is a serious question so I understand some folks point of view. When tape shows open guys and a play to be made and the wrong guy is targeted, drops the ball, or a misfire, is it:
- Bad coaching
- Bad execution by the players
- Bad players in the first place

It is pretty hard to tell apart #1 and #2 without being in the room hearing how these guys are coached up. In the end this is getting to be all BOB as everyone else is gone except Cal and the players so it is time to put up or shut up. I actually feel when watching discussions the frustration occurs when people don't admit the players have a role here too as I am sure they are coached on some of these errors. I still lean to say BOB has to do better and get through or get smarter guys who take coaching. Anyway, just watching the debates, and wanted to chime in.


Then there is the elephant in the room. Just maybe we have crowned Watson as a franchise qb too soon.

Obrien has brought in OB coach Carl Smith to work with Watson. Smith is credited with coaching up Russell Wilson.

I haven't seen any improvement in Watson yet. Still holding the ball too long and fails to locate his secondary receivers.

Can Watson be coached up............or had he reached his ceiling at Clemson?

We've already blamed owners, GMs, coaching, scheme, Olinemen, every receiver not named Hopkins, cheerleaders and water boy.

Just askin'

:coffee:
 
Then there is the elephant in the room. Just maybe we have crowned Watson as a franchise qb too soon.

Obrien has brought in OB coach Carl Smith to work with Watson. Smith is credited with coaching up Russell Wilson.

I haven't seen any improvement in Watson yet. Still holding the ball too long and fails to locate his secondary receivers.

Can Watson be coached up............or had he reached his ceiling at Clemson?

We've already blamed owners, GMs, coaching, scheme, Olinemen, every receiver not named Hopkins, cheerleaders and water boy.

Just askin'

:coffee:

I'd rather try a new coach rather than give up on Watson. Watson > O'Brien
 
Along with release time and movement patterns, scheme and coaching can also help a team overcome a talent deficiency on the offensive line. And for a former quarterback like Orlovsky, that’s been the most frustrating part of the Texans’ first two games: The coaching staff is making the same mistakes that plagued it last season. Houston had significant problems picking up blitzes in 2018, and that’s continued with Tunsil, running back Duke Johnson, and the rest of its new personnel up front. During the Texans’ loss to the Saints, New Orleans consistently sent blitzes on the side opposite the tight end, and the Texans failed to pick up those pressure packages. “They can’t pass it off well,” Orlovsky says. “Part of me was a little bit understanding with the new tailback and the new tackle. But it’s the same story. It has to fall on Bill O’Brien at some point.”


In the meantime, though, there are ways that O’Brien and the Texans can find a balance between giving Watson the freedom to push the ball downfield and doing a better job of protecting him. One method is with more heavy sets and max-protection looks that feature only two or three receivers running routes. Houston tries to create deep play-action shots on early downs, but too often, those designs come out of sets with three receivers and a single tight end. Which leaves the Texans blockers at a disadvantage. Orlovsky says that against the Saints, O’Brien used designs that asked a tight end to block All-Pro defensive end Cameron Jordan on two separate occasions. “That’s just stupid,” Orlovsky says. “I don’t care who the tight end is.” The Texans have their share of max-protection, play-action shot plays in the playbook. It’s just a matter of leaning on them more than they have in the past.

ezgif.com_optimize__27_.gif

When the Texans do choose to put three receivers on the field and spread defenses out, they generally do it in ways that leave them vulnerable. In most situations, an offense’s rules for dealing with the blitz are fairly uniform: Some combination of the quarterback and the offensive line (the roles vary by team) will designate a specific linebacker pre-snap as the “Mike.” That player, along with the front four defenders, becomes the responsibility of the offensive line. If a different defender blitzes after the Mike is assigned, it’s the quarterback’s job to throw the ball “hot” to the receiver in the vacated area.

Experienced lines can skillfully tweak protection schemes and rules each week for specific plays and opponents, a tactic the Packers used regularly as their linemen spent more time together. “We’d used to have little side meetings with Aaron and the offense where we’d sit down on Saturdays and say, the coaches really like this play, but we’re not really digging it that much because we think there’s a weakness here,” Lang says. “We used to not have two different game plans, but have modified game plans as players.” For the new-look Texans, though, that would be like asking junior high students to take a calculus test. At this point, Houston is botching even basic “hot” rules at an alarming rate.

ezgif.com_optimize__25_.gif


The Texans’ best hopes moving forward involve Watson heaving deep balls and keeping plays alive, but if they keep going about it this way, he won’t be on the field to do it. Houston has to find ways to protect Watson—and ways to protect him from himself.

More here:

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/...s-deshaun-watson-pass-protection-quarterbacks

Could the OL issues have anything to do with having a new LT/2 rookie OL and new RB's?

It takes time to develop the rookies/Tunsil and the RB's to form a cohesive unit.
 
Then there is the elephant in the room. Just maybe we have crowned Watson as a franchise qb too soon.

Obrien has brought in OB coach Carl Smith to work with Watson. Smith is credited with coaching up Russell Wilson.

I haven't seen any improvement in Watson yet. Still holding the ball too long and fails to locate his secondary receivers.

Can Watson be coached up............or had he reached his ceiling at Clemson?

We've already blamed owners, GMs, coaching, scheme, Olinemen, every receiver not named Hopkins, cheerleaders and water boy.

Just askin'

:coffee:

Hopefully this is a learning process for the young man. He's essentially going into his 2nd yr. Look at Steve Young's career as a guide. If he's having the same issues next yr then we can talk about his ability to learn and retain.

I think the young man is a hard worker and will learn as he sees more things. Some people can learn from seeing something on a chalk board, other have to learn by doing the work at hand.

Which one is Watson? Time will tell.
 
Definitely. But it's also an ongoing issue. Let's see if they gel

They have 4 more weeks before I will start being more critical of them.

Last week they only gave up 1 sack that was the OL's fault, so that's a good starting point.
 
Can Watson be coached up............or had he reached his ceiling at Clemson?

Just askin'

:coffee:
He’s basically being coached down by another college coach. O’Brien wasn’t even a college coach on Dabo’s level, so what can he possibly teach Watson that’s better than what Dabo taught him? O’Brien is a downgrade!
 
It is easy to misinterpret people on a message board. But I do take you as a "defend O'Brien at all costs" guy. The polar opposite to KDog. I could easily be wrong, but just letting you know, that is how I interpret you.

I get that..and that doesn’t really bother me as much as guys on here flat out lying or stretching the truth to try to make their points. Or those acting as if there aren’t other very plausible reasons for why something is what it is. that bothers me more than anything.
 
He’s basically being coached down by another college coach. O’Brien wasn’t even a college coach on Dabo’s level, so what can he possibly teach Watson that’s better than what Dabo taught him? O’Brien is a downgrade!

Coached down? The Texans have a QB coach that should be contributing to Watson's growth. The team even decided to invest in Wilson's former QB coach. I'm sure that man is plenty capable of teaching Watson, OB aside. That coach ought to be considered an upgrade for this season.
 
I get that..and that doesn’t really bother me as much as guys on here flat out lying or stretching the truth to try to make their points. Or those acting as if there aren’t other very plausible reasons for why something is what it is. that bothers me more than anything.

At the end of the day, everyone on here knows jack s**t! Take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt. We are all taking guesses and expressing "how we would do things", which all amounts to pretty much useless info.
 
Coached down? The Texans have a QB coach that should be contributing to Watson's growth. The team even decided to invest in Wilson's former QB coach. I'm sure that man is plenty capable of teaching Watson, OB aside. That coach ought to be considered an upgrade for this season.
Carl Smith is a proven QB coach so I trust him more than I’d ever trust O’Brien. But I’m not talking about Carl Smith here, I’m talking about O’Brien! His system is not doing Watson any favors. Compared to Dabo, O’Brien is coaching Watson down. Dabo >> O’Brien any day if the week. Twice on Sunday!
 
Carl Smith is a proven QB coach so I trust him more than I’d ever trust O’Brien. But I’m not talking about Carl Smith here, I’m talking about O’Brien! His system is not doing Watson any favors. Compared to Dabo, O’Brien is coaching Watson down. Dabo >> O’Brien any day if the week. Twice on Sunday!

You say OB is coaching Watson down but you trust the QB coach. Is he not coaching Watson up? I feel like you're trying to have this both ways. Who is coaching Watson and trying to get him to find open receivers and get the ball out quicker? OB, Smith, or The System?
 
You say OB is coaching Watson down but you trust the QB coach. Is he not coaching Watson up? I feel like you're trying to have this both ways. Who is coaching Watson and trying to get him to find open receivers and get the ball out quicker? OB, Smith, or The System?
Again, a QB coach doesn’t NOT install his own offense to help the QB. They are still running O’Brien’s system that is so complex O’Brien himself doesn’t even know it. I’m not trying to have anything both ways, just stating facts. Dabo Sweeney is a better coach than O’Brien in any and every level. Their resumes speak for themselves. And, about Carl Smith...he has only had 2 games with Watson. Hopefully we will see progress down the stretch, despite O’Brien’s scheme or lack there of.
 
I am not anti Watson. Just discussing possibilities.

My thoughts on Obrien should be well known by posters here.

Just bringing up the lack of improvement in Watsons play.

Is it all coaching? Smith came here highly regarded.

Many highly successful college qb's have failed in the NFL.

Not everything is black/white right/wrong as some want to pose it.

I'm pulling for Watson to be one of the successful ones. :gotexans1

:coffee:
 
Again, a QB coach doesn’t NOT install his own offense to help the QB. They are still running O’Brien’s system that is so complex O’Brien himself doesn’t even know it. I’m not trying to have anything both ways, just stating facts. Dabo Sweeney is a better coach than O’Brien in any and every level. Their resumes speak for themselves.

We're talking past one another. I don't care about Dabo, he doesn't coach in the NFL. I am looking at Watson's NFL growth and what his coaches are doing to help him grow. Maybe the offensive scheme doesn't suit Watson, that's fine. But Watson has some things to learn and improve upon. Namely missing open receivers and getting rid of the ball on time. These are things he ideally would have learned under Dabo (situational awareness), yet here we are seeing Watson repeat some of the same mistakes from last year. That's not because of the offensive scheme. It's clear as day he misses reads that are open in this offensive scheme. One can assume he's being shown this in the film room if we can see it on the TV on Sundays. The scheme is not putting blinders on the QB.

I'm with you that OB isn't a great coach or offensive mind, but Watson has responsibility and accountability here, as does Smith. This isn't all on OB, his scheme or lack thereof.
 
The difference between what’s going on with Andy Reid and BoB right now is that Reid has a guy under center that’s not missing his opportunities...except when he attempts no look passes.

I love DW4...but in the Saints game he missed on 2 TD strikes to Nuk and Fuller when both plays schemed those guys wide open. In the Jax game he missed on another TD strike to Duke who was once again running wide open on a play that was perfectly schemed up.


Can you post images of these from All-22 ?
 
At the end of the day, everyone on here knows jack s**t! Take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt. We are all taking guesses and expressing "how we would do things", which all amounts to pretty much useless info.
Yeah but my useless information is better than all your (plural) useless information! Lol
 
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