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Should we trade Watson?
- Thread starter theCATALYST
- Start date
My bad, and fair enough..
If we're not being overly pedantic though it's effectively the same thing, ya?
Not necessarily.
Really depends upon his meaning of that statement or your interpretation of it.
There are things that never change and should.
There are things that need to change and don't.
Ok, couldn't be different things bud..
Like I said , the interpretation of the statement ....
He didn't say "some things need to change".
He did say "some things never change".
What could that mean ?
You really have to take a step back and consider why it matters to him (Watson) who the GM is.
This is , in a perfect world is someone who would outlast him with the organization. Players come and go , GM's and HC's , if they are good are around for much longer.
Its not someone he's going to work directly with , his only concern should be that the individual is qualified to do the job well - to put good players around me.
Neither Khan nor Caserio were my top choice or even top two choices (Dorsey / Wolff) but I do believe that both have excellent track records in the field and that both are well qualified for the job - both with far superior resume's to the #2 guy on the Korn Perry list Louis Riddick.
So again , ask yourself what that statement means - Some things never change.
It could mean he believes that the organization did the typical thing - They did what they wanted to do and didn't listen to a thing I or anyone else said.
It could mean that the typical happened. In this case , the social justice aspect - as is typical the minority didn't get the job.
It's not about what needs to change , its that the result was .... typical. Some things never change.
NY_Jets_Fan
Practice Squad
@Texian the Jets definitely won't want to face Watson twice a year, but there's one factor that will impact where they send Watson and none of us will really know the answer.
Of the available QB's, do they have a strong preference for one over the other? If you're trading Watson with an eye on drafting his replacement and you feel significantly better about one prospect than the other, you risk losing the guy you prefer if you trade for pick 3 because the Jets may take the guy you want at pick 2.
Then you lose the QB you have along with the QB you wanted to replace him with.
Is it worth getting an extra couple of picks if it means losing out on the guy you believe you could win with if you build around him?
Of the available QB's, do they have a strong preference for one over the other? If you're trading Watson with an eye on drafting his replacement and you feel significantly better about one prospect than the other, you risk losing the guy you prefer if you trade for pick 3 because the Jets may take the guy you want at pick 2.
Then you lose the QB you have along with the QB you wanted to replace him with.
Is it worth getting an extra couple of picks if it means losing out on the guy you believe you could win with if you build around him?
Texian
Hall of Fame
We can keep Watson, or trade him to MIA and use the #1 pick in the 2022 draft on a QB.
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I'm starting to think a "fresh start" is not their goal.
NY_Jets_Fan
Practice Squad
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NY_Jets_Fan
Practice Squad
Not sure how many teams are going to be willing to tank after a season of no fans in the stadiums. And nobody knows better than the Jets right now that you be historically bad and still find a way to screw yourself out of the top pick.
I wouldn’t call him mediocre. But his holding on to the ball too long and taking sacks can lead to a shorter career
Texian
Hall of Fame
You're being cheap, just think of it as trading Jamal Adams and 2 1st rd draft picks.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
To be fair we don't know for sure that he is generating interest. We know that the media is going crazy because this was a big story dropped in their laps and the Texans have such a small fan base that they can rag on them all day and no one will care. As far as what actual teams are offering or if they are offering anything nothing has been confirmed or even really hinted at.
PT Barnum once said, there's a sucker born everyday.
Nobody said he's a bad QB. Just not a championship level QB on the level of say Brady/Mahomes.
theCATALYST
Football Messiah
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
My feelings are a bit mixed about Lawrence. I am thankful he chose to don the Orange and White. He'll likely go down as the second greatest QB in Clemson history. But there are a few things about his play that irked a lot of fans. So I'll focus on some of the negatives that could be issues moving forward.
Probably the biggest criticism of TL among some of the Clemson fanbase (not all) is that he is not a gamer. In this regard, he is very different from Joe Burrow, who was one of the ultimate gamers at the collegiate level, so I can't really agree with badboy's assessment at all. This is no fault of his own, but the ACC essentially collapsed by the time Lawrence arrived to campus, so we spent the better part of a year putting up big numbers against Wake, Duke, a Lamar Jackson-less L'Ville, a Jimbo Fisher-less FSU, etc. Even then, TL's performances against these teams were good, not outstanding. Some of this I blame on our offensive coordinators. But then again, our stud freshman QB executes the same game plan against Boston College and Notre Dame and lights them both up in a way we've never seen TL do. When the pressure is on, he seems to get rattled easily, and starts sailing balls. He looks fantastic when the O-Line is protecting him and he can work through his reads, but he hasn't shown nearly the ability to execute off-script as Burrow and Watson had. He also doesn't have the best sense of pocket pressure and will sometimes step up right into a sack when he probably needs to leave the pocket and try to extend plays with his feet.
He's a good QB but I think scouts are mostly salivating over him because of his measurables and mobility. Personally, I don't think he has that "it" factor, but he could always prove me wrong at the next level and he certainly has the talent to prove any of his doubters wrong. But I can only go by what I saw on the field as a fan.
I’ll stick with Jerry Rice’s assessment.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Issue with hunker is if you trade DW to Jets you know you have a QB at 1.2 plus your boatload of picks to improve team. If you wait until 2022 we have no clue what record will be. Let's say top five in draft; how many of those picks we get in trade has to go to trade up for Howell? In addition, '21 draft QBs are healthy and Howell & others still have to get through a season healthy. Much to large a gamble for me.
Trade Watson for a Boatload of picks then "Hunker Down For Howell" in 2022..
It could also be he didn't think Kelly or Crennel were necessary changes..
Like this originally had to do with..
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Do we even know what a Burrow/Herbert level is? Burrow only played half a season. These guys could be the next Brady. They could be the next Wentz.
Landing a top tier QB is almost entirely sheer luck. In hindsight, everyone would take Aaron Rodgers at No. 1. In hindsight, everyone would NOT take Mitch Trubisky at No. 2 overall. We never know what a guy will amount to at the next level so all of the projections are almost pointless. Whether you're taking a "generational talent" at No. 1 or a project in the 4th Round, it's a crapshoot either way.
This is why, imo, it makes close to zero sense to trade away a 25-year old Pro Bowl QB. You could draft QBs for the next 30 years and not find a QB who's nearly as good.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Hey really appreciate your input and you obviously know more about him than I. I remember from an earlier post you like DJ Uiagalelei better than TL. You disagree with me saying TL better than Burrows but you didn't compare him to Tag? For the record lol, I didn't compare DJ to any of these other QB and I think he could be better and 247 claims he has "generational" arm strength. Yet they also said he has just above average pocket awareness and out of the pocket ability. That is huge concern. 117 passes at Clemson encourages me to not say too much yet.. His stats were okay at 67 % completions and five TDs but I want to see him for a complete season before I start comparing him to known guys.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
I'd still take Snyder over Cal though. I think Dan actually cares about putting a competitive product on the field. He's historically tried to do that by grabbing his checkbook and paying whatever some GM told him he needed to pay to acquire the services of a 30+ Deion Sanders or Bruce Smith. I'm sure it took every fiber of his being not to try to sign Tom Brady to a $1 billion lifetime contract. To Dan's credit, he's made some very solid hires over the years and has largely removed himself from the day-to-day operations of the team. And it still hasn't worked out. Shows you how hard it is to win even with competent people.
Cal is something entirely different. He wants the Texans to be the Chick-fil-A of the NFL. No way Snyder would tolerate Easterby or even BOB for as long as Cal did.
Max
Veteran
Deshaun Watson could be the next Brady. He could be the next Wentz.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
As a college QB, I'd say Tua was a more complete QB than Lawrence. I think everyone is down on Tua now because he had a subpar rookie season. No one was down on him when he subbed in for Jalen Hurts as a freshman in the title game and tore Georgia's defense to shreds in front of a hostile crowd. Sure, you could say he was so good because he had Waddle, Ruggs, Smith, etc., but Hurts also had Waddle, Ruggs, Smith, etc. Nobody knew Alabama could have any semblance of a modern offense until Tua showed up.
I would put more stock into what Clemson fans say than what 247 says. 247 rated Hunter Johnson as a 5-star QB. Higher than Deshaun Watson. Have you ever heard of Hunter Johnson? We've had several 5-star "can't miss" talents who have transferred out to different programs and ultimately done nothing.
It is true that DJU has played a lot less football than Lawrence. But just compare their first starts. Trevor's first start came on the road against an "okay" Texas A&M team. He was jittery, inaccurate and needed the veteran Kelly Bryant to come into the game and save him. DJU's first start came against a BC defense that actually had a rather strong defensive line. He passed with flying colors. His second start came against No. 3 Notre Dame on the road and he threw for 3 TDs and 400+ yards. He was in total command of the offense.
This isn't to say that we know everything there is to know about these guys. But the TAMU game, imo, was kind of a microcosm of TL's career at Clemson in some ways. A bit shaky under duress with moments on the big stage that seem too big for him. DJU was definitely more "Watsonesque" as he trots out on the field with a big smile and then starts throwing darts all over the field. There's a difference in confidence/swagger that's hard to explain.
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ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
He's definitely not the next Wentz because he's already put together a better body of work than Wentz has in 4 years. When I say "the next Wentz," I mean a guy who had one great season and then regressed. Contrary to the belief of some around these parts, Watson has actually improved.
I'm more willing than some others to let a QB play 4-5 seasons before making a judgment about him either way. That even goes for Mahomes.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Except Chick-fil-A delivers every time. Agree with tolerance. Cal is soft.
badboy
Hall of Fame
and that's what makes what I do fun and interesting. Justin Field was right there with Wilson IMO until his final game. Is that enough to change my mind? yep. Still a Devonta Smith or Terrace Marshall or perhaps a solid LT after a trade down with Detroit for example bringing us another pick would be sweet. Trey Lance or even Trask may not be Lawrence but not a slop jar either.
badboy
Hall of Fame
to be fair, it is not about how we evaluate Watson but how other teams do in a trade scenario. I don't think he is elite but I certainly hope Jets and Dolphins do. Each of those teams are deciding how he will impact them. I don't see him QB Texans to SB in three years but what we might get for him could; meaning the entire trade package.
Fine,
Time will tell
Tell me what is your definition of generational and give me some examples of QB's from the past that you think were generational.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Haha. Very true.
Snyder/Cal provide an interesting contrast in the way they've treated their franchise QBs. Snyder treated RG3 like a son, letting him ride in his limousine and taking him out for expensive dinners with his wife all over town. This understandably created a lot of tension in the locker room since RG was seen as a teacher's pet. Even after it became apparent to most fans that RG3's rookie season was most likely a flash in the pan, Snyder still sided with RG3 over a coach who had won 2 Super Bowls.
Then you look at Cal. Your franchise QB had a stellar season and nearly every team is biting at the chomp to get him and your attitude is "meh." Dan Snyder wouldn't let Watson walk for the jersey sales alone. If Snyder owned the Texans, Watson and his GF would be on Snyder's private jet on their way to the Maldives right now.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Clemson has 3 national championships. The Washington Football Team has 3 Super Bowl titles.
Houston football teams have how many championships?
It's hard for you to know what winning looks like considering you've never actually seen it in your life. No matter what you think about Watson, the man knows what a winning culture looks like.
If the Texans do what they should do and clean the books in 2021 they will have a really high draft pick in 2022 to get their QB. If they trade with the Dolphins at #3 and dont want any other QB besides Wilson and Wilson is chosen at #2 then I could see Caserio trading back adding more picks to build a solid foundation including even more 2022 picks so his team will be loaded with young talented guys on their rookie deals when they draft a QB in the 2022 draft.
The theory is if you cant get the QB you want build your team up and draft your QB in 2022. This is the mistake Rick Smith made, he got his QB but didn't have the picks to build around him because of the draft capital he had to give up to get DW4 and get rid of Os. History has repeated itself under BOB as GM. Hopefully Caserio is smarter than those guys and knows how to roster build.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
So Washington is only a year away, huh?
The problem there is that you build your team up to the point where they're good enough to win 7-9 games each season with a middling, aging QB. Then you screw yourselves out of a premium first round pick.
I guess we could have been better had Haskins worked out at 1.15, but therein lies the problem in drafting QBs. The ones you think will be good rarely ever pan out.
If you need a QB and have a high draft pick, it would be smart to hire Scott McCloughan to help you find your QB. Russ/Baker are just 2 of the QB's he's recommended to be drafted. He also recommended Kaep. No I dont have a link but he was with the orgs when those QB's were drafted.
Max
Veteran
Wentz didn't have just one great season and he had shown enough in the league that his peers voted that he was the 3rd best player in the league. I don't think Watson is Wentz either but we don't know that he's going to bring us a championship either. The best way for me to say what I'm trying to is with an example. I don't expect this to be popular, but I would take Joe Burrow straight up in a trade for Deshaun Watson and I'm basing that off of what I saw in college. Pocket awareness, vision, timing, accuracy, touch...it's all there for me and I think he's much more likely to be the next Brady than Watson. I'd get what I could for Watson in a heart beat if I could get Burrow in this year's draft even after knowing that Watson is damn good as a pro. So that's what it comes down to for me and I'm hoping Caserio -- is there that guy that there is that kind of conviction about in this years draft. If there is, then I pull the trigger on a trade if I'm not being low balled. If not, Watson's my guy.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Wentz's knee is not the problem. It's his head. His deficiencies were masked by a very good offensive line. In fact, the offensive line was so good that a journeyman QB was able to win a SB behind it and has not come close to duplicating his results behind that offensive line anywhere else.
Do you read any other fan boards besides this one?
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Yes, for that one season. How many Pro Bowls has Wentz been selected to since?
Burrow was amazing during his last season at LSU. The caveat there is that he was a 5th year grad. We'll never know what Watson, Mahomes, Fields, Lawrence, etc. would look like with 2 additional years of practice, film study, drills, etc. The 2018 version of Joe Burrow was nothing like the 2019 version of Joe Burrow.
The point is that everybody gets QB projections wrong all the time. A frequent poster on this board (will go unnamed) said Mahomes' ceiling was Matthew Stafford and also said DW4 would be lucky to be as good as Jameis Winston was. The predictions on this board alone are laughable. That's why I don't make predictions about QBs. It's tough enough to predict how any player's career will turn out, but QB has to be the toughest of all since there are so many variables that determine how a QB performs.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
We hired Scot. Too bad he was a lush.
Fanbases can't resist the temptation of blowing everything up and rebuilding. The "Football Team" does so every decade or so in emphatic fashion. The only constant is the ownership. Kinda makes you wonder if there's any point to a rebuild if Cal still owns the team. And he's a far less competent owner than Snyder. Snyder is at least a self-made man and understands business. He wasn't just handed a franchise by his daddy.
I remember Snyder, Shanahan and Bruce Allen sitting at the table with the Redskins and FedEx logos in the background just like it was yesterday. It was the ultimate power move. Shanny was sitting there chewing gum like an old school coach and going on and on about culture, winning mentality, Elway, etc, etc. With the No. 2 pick in the draft, and a promising Heisman trophy QB waiting in the wings, what could possibly go wrong?
The reality is that the Texans will probably never win a SB in your lifetime. I think you said you're in your 50s. So there's probably about a 0.5% chance it happens in your lifetime. You guys need to get in a long line behind lots of other fanbases that are thirsting for a title. The Texans haven't even been around that long.
With Watson, you probably won't win a Bowl, but at least it would be entertaining. And at the end of the day, this is a game and games are about entertainment. I'd take this over the other very likely option of losing game after game without being entertained.
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ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
EXPECTATIONS VS REALITY
Expectations
Reality
Expectations
Reality
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
I'm not willing to put Mahomes on the same level as Brady. We need to see how he performs without Hill and Kelce for long stretches of time. I know everyone says you just can't plug any QB into the KC system and get the same results, but I don't think that's even the argument that gets made. The argument is that Hill and Kelce elevate him to almost godly levels and I don't see how anyone can deny this with a straight face.
Kelce is completely unguardable. There's literally nothing you can do about him. He was posting 1,000 yard+ Pro Bowl seasons before Mahomes even got there. Add Hill to the mix--who literally runs the same diagonal route across the field every other play--and you have an offense you can't contain. How many plays have we seen where Hill runs past the defense like Usain Bolt in 2008? I can assure you that scheme will not work with Jordan Akins and Chad Hansen.
He's not the same QB as he was before the ACL.
He tore multiple ligaments. CnD can speak to the difference between just tearing the ACL vs multiple ligaments. I fear the same outcome for Burrow.
Yes.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
We agree on that. Where we differ is correlation vs causation.
Here is what we do know: Wentz played the best football of his career behind an offensive line that won a Super Bowl. Nick Foles played his best football behind the same offensive line. Neither has had the same statistical output since playing behind that line.
How much does his knee have to do with his regression? I don't know. He didn't completely fall off a cliff the next season so I don't think that's really an excuse. I think things went south for him when the Eagles were no longer as dominant in the trenches. That dominant offensive line is the common thread that runs through his success as well as Foles'.
Well, there's that, and the rumor that Wentz would disregard Pederson and basically go rogue.
I dont care about if a guy drinks to much or not. Can he evaluate talent? Bruce Allen won a power struggle and when the team predictably failed he was shown the door. BTW, I think Snyder is a terrible owner. He made his team draft Haskins and got to close to RGIII. Shanny ruined RGIII's career by playing him with an ACl tear. I wonder if Snyder was behind that? Snyder has now given a football guy Rivera control of his franchise and I see a good future ahead for them. Hopefully Cuck does the same with Caserio.
As far as DW4 and not winning a championship goes, if you dont think DW4 can win a championship then you move on. This game should be all about trying to win championships. If it's not why even keep scores. I'm entertained by teams that make moves that are made in trying to win championships. Not just status quo and seeing great players making highlight play film plays. BTW, I dont care how long the franchise has been around, yhey could possibly win a championship but that would take the McNair's selling the team to an owner whose sole focus is on winning a championship. (Biscotti) Or a hands off owner that just lets his GM pick the best players regardless of their backgrounds. This is the common denominator between teams like the Chiefs/Ravens etc... and teams like the Texans/Bengals etc... where ownership is involved.
I really dont care what players do in their off time either as long as they're willing to put in the time to be the best they can be.
Texian
Hall of Fame
If the Texans were as well run, operated at the same high degree of efficiency and provided the customer service that Chick-Fil-A does, I would be the first to say, let us all take a knee, join hands and pray.
Max
Veteran
Amen brother.
We're in a transitory position right now. We don't know how the Texans are going to be ran going forward. Well, you know because you have ESP, but the rest of us don't.
I don't care if Cal hired Khan, Dorsey, or Reddick... I've been waiting to see if Cal would step back & let his GM do his job. If Cal does that, I think we'll be headed in the right direction.