Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Well there was a 1-15 Dolphins team where a new HC got them into the playoffs in the very next season. It's not impossible.
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Put the pink soap away for good: Kubiak extended until 2012
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Well there was a 1-15 Dolphins team where a new HC got them into the playoffs in the very next season. It's not impossible.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
I reckon the odds of y'all talkin any sense into SH are less than teaching a newborn trigonometry.
What's trigonometry?
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
I think this is actually going to be really interesting to watch. They're situation is pretty similar to the Texans in '06. 1st time Head Coaches coming with a legit #1 WR to work with and having the #1 pick in the Draft. They're the Division doormats. Rodgers is the real deal (not quite as good as Peyton, but he's really good). Chicago is lots of questions like Jacksonville. Favre is soon to be done and the Vikings have a Defense like the Titans did.
I will say the Lions roster/depth chart is not as bad as you might think. Go take a look at it if you don't believe me! Schwartz really has every opportunity to turn that team around. I will say if I was a Free Agent, Houston sounds like a better landing spot than Detroit.
Kubiak started with Petey Faggins AND Philip Buchanon on his team. And by gawd.... Jim Schwartz started with Petey Faggins AND Philip Buchanon on his team!!!
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
The Cam Cameron 1-15 team started T. Green / Cleo Lemon
The Sparano 11-5 team started Chad Pennington
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
So they got a new QB. I don't really see what the point is other than stating that it's an upgrade. No one was considering Chad Pennington some world beater or elite QB at that time period and no one expected that team to improve anywhere close to the way that they did last season. Pennington barely even got there in time for the season and was very late into pre season because of how late the Jets got that deal done with Favre. Pennington barely had any time with that team before the season started. The WR's were terrible as well and were again this season for the Dolphins. They won games by running the ball well and not turning the ball over much and playing pretty consistent defense. Sparano didn't make many coaching mistakes either. Their over all roster wasn't that great though. Sparano went in there and over achieved and got them into the playoffs after being a doormat in one season. The Falcons had a similar turn around as well last year.
& what exactly was the right situation for Cowher?
He didn't want to go to the Bills.. why not?
The rumor, was that he wanted to go somewhere with an established QB. Personally, if that is true, I'll have to lower the pedestal I've got Cowher on. I know he had some issues trying to find one in the past... but c'mon is he a head coach or not?
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Fine. Kubiak, as a coach, has underperformed Sparano's one remarkable season. I can live with that. Kubiak does not hold the record for the most amazing one year turnaround. Perhaps we should stone him, and every other coach who takes over a team, and only triples the win total of the previous season.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
What HC wouldn't want to go to a team with an established QB?? I'd call that common sense to if you're in a spot to "cherry pick" the right place to go. Hell, a lack of a QB is what kills tons of coach's chances in the NFL. Washington and Detroit have been perfect examples of that for years. Don't be surprised to see Mike Singletary out of a job in two years if they don't find a QB over there soon either. Most coaches looking for work aren't in that position though and they'll go wherever they can find work especially if it's a HC job.
And that wasn't the rumor in the first place either, nor does it make any sense. If it was because of a QB situation that the Bills didn't have then why would Cowher have ever gone over there and gone through negotiations in the first place?? He already knew what the Bills QB situation was. It was reported that Wilson was willing to pay Cowher a high salary that was acceptable, but Cowher couldn't get enough commitment from Wilson that he would be aggressive in spending money in free agency and on personal and that's a very big concern that any coach should have especially if we're talking about a penny pinching cheap ass like Ralph Wilson who is known for being one of the cheapest owners in the league.
Buffalo is a terrible destination for any coach to go into right now. Add to the fact that it's cold as hell, the owner is cheap, and there has been talks about the team possibly moving in the next few years, well Cowher would have been really foolish to take that job when he's as sought after as he is around the league. Cowher obviously wasn't that stupid and neither was Shanahan. The Bills have had a very hard time trying to find a HC. No one wants to work for Ralph Wilson and I can't blame them.
"But Logan has an intriguing new nugget, posting Wednesday night on Twitter. He writes that Cowher is "OK" with the Bills' salary offer, but that Cowher wants a "commitment" from Russ Brandon regarding the money that would be available to sign players."
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/07/bills-could-still-be-chasing-cowher/
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Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
What is this??? I bring up a fact to what Thunderkiss mentioned with the Lions and once again you come roaring back in to defend Kubiak behind it. If you think the guy is that great of a HC, then why act so paranoid about things like you have to prove something here? If he's as going to be as great as you think he'll be in the future than you should just let the results speak for themselves. Whether this is a discussion about Kubes or Capers or whomever, what Sparano did in his first season there was pretty remarkable and that can't be denied and it proves that turn arounds in the NFL can happen a lot faster than some of you are willing to believe.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Good point!!
A coach looking for the "right" situation sounds like a coach that doesn't have the 'fire in the belly' and looking to skate. A coach with the fire in the belly would just want a) a challenge and b) really just want to compete.
LMAO!!!
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Ronnie Brown started 7 games for Cameron.
Ronnie Brown started all 16 Sparano's first season.
[In my best Dr. Cogslotter voice] NEXT?
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
So you think Ronnie Brown made the difference in that entire season? That 916 yards and 10 TD's was what did it all to you ha? Ronnie Brown was actually having a much better season by far under Cameron than he was in Sparano's first season as HC. He put up 602 yards and 4 TD's rushing and 389 yards receiving and 1 TD. That's 991 all purpose yards 5 TD's in only 7 games that year.
Your attempt at discrediting Sparano was a fail. NEXT!
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
At least do apples to apples. It's 1170 all purpose yards to compare to 991 all purpose yards.
Then add Ricky Williams being back/getting back into shape going from 15 yds to 878 yds with 5 TDs.
You want to discount Brown and Pennington but what happened when they went down? 4 game regression with no playoffs.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Gary Kubiak v. Tony Sparano?
Kubes in the lead 2-0
*EDIT*
Dalemurphy, you may want to hold off on stoning Kubiak..
Kubes in the lead 2-0
*EDIT*
Dalemurphy, you may want to hold off on stoning Kubiak..
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
He tried acting like Ronnie Brown was the big difference maker without even looking at his stats to see what the difference was from both seasons at how he was producing. He didn't mention Ricky Williams and I don't even think he was aware of Ricky's production either or he would have mentioned it. I showed him the difference at how Ronnie had been producing in both of those seasons since he thought it had some bearing which was the apple right with the seed.
Are you going to chime in now to discredit Sparano to now Icak? Boy, you guys sure are reaching now aren't you? Discrediting a new HC that went to a 1-15 team and got them into the post season winning the division over the 16-0 Patriots over one year was a very big achievement no matter how you want to spin it. What's funny is you guys talk go on and on about baby steps and small improvements each year with Kubes and how comforting that is, but yet you guys try to pull out every punch to discredit a coach who took a 1-15 team to the playoffs in one season. It's funny really and it's a double standard and that's why I don't think any of this really matters at "what man" we're talking about with some of you. It's all about the logo and who coaches for whom. If Sparano was here right now and he did for the Texans what he did for the Dolphins, and Kubes was pulling off 8-8's every year with the Dolphins, you guys would be cracking jokes on Kubes probably and this discussion would be all about how Sparano was better than guys like Cowher, Holmgren, and Bill Billicheck for what he did last season and in the end it would be simply because he's the coach of the Houston Texans and wears battle red. Even If capers was our coach I think this discussion would be exactly the same.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Gary Kubiak v. Tony Sparano?
Kubes in the lead 2-0
*EDIT*
Dalemurphy, you may want to hold off on stoning Kubiak..
What is he leading in? More seasons of not making the playoffs? The actual score is
Sparano 1/2
Kubes 0/4
But don't let me stop you from
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
What is he leading in? More seasons of not making the playoffs? The actual score is
Sparano 1/2
Kubes 0/4
But don't let me stop you from
Yes Ronnie Brown missing 9 games is huge. See Cak's detailed post.
Sparanos so great that he plays a 1-15 schedule, has Bill Parcells get him Chad Pennington, has a healthy entire 16 game season Brown and Williams and yet he can't beat pathetic, incompetent Kubiak?? Really??
Your argument doesn't hold water so it's quite obvious you're arguing just to see yourself argue...
You win!!
/not
I'm done....
*EDIT*
Lastly, I did look at his stats, so don't try that bullshit!!
Now I'm done!!
Different team... different situation... stay with me, we're talking about the Lions.
I agree, very similar situation. 4 years ago, no one was comparing the Texans to the Dolphins, Falcons, Jets, or even Saints. Not in 2006 they weren't.
We were being compared to the Cardinals in 2006. Some even argued we were in a worse situation than the Lions.
But my point, is every team, every situation is different. That team, & that situation changes from year to year.
No question about it. This team underperformed in 2009. But, IMHO, only 2009. Good 2006. Good 2007. OK 2008. WTF 2009..... to me, that doesn't mean fire your head coach.
I totally understand the guys pissed about the 3 year extension. I personally don't think it was the right move. But y'know.
bckey
All Pro
You are right Cak. I give Kubiak credit for wanting Bush when many of us (including myself) wanted him to at least interview some other candidates before making a decision. Kubiak wanted Bush in the very beginning but got snubbed by Arizona. It turns out that Kubiak was right that Bush was going to be something special if given the chance to be in control of the defense. No complaints here on that decision.
Can we use stats in our arguments now?
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
I'm to the point now where I'm reading about every forth post. They are all starting to look the same in this thread.
You can throw every stat you want to at us, you can argue about Coach This or Coach That of the Whatever Team did something or the other, and its all going in one ear and out the other. Or in one eye and out the other eye since this is the internet.
Offseason really sucks, and this one apppears to have a really grandiose suckatude about it. I can't wait for free agency and our first signing so we at least have something new to fight over. LOL
You can throw every stat you want to at us, you can argue about Coach This or Coach That of the Whatever Team did something or the other, and its all going in one ear and out the other. Or in one eye and out the other eye since this is the internet.
Offseason really sucks, and this one apppears to have a really grandiose suckatude about it. I can't wait for free agency and our first signing so we at least have something new to fight over. LOL
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Yes Ronnie Brown missing 9 games is huge. See Cak's detailed post.
Sparanos so great that he plays a 1-15 schedule, has Bill Parcells get him Chad Pennington, has a healthy entire 16 game season Brown and Williams and yet he can't beat pathetic, incompetent Kubiak?? Really??
Your argument doesn't hold water so it's quite obvious you're arguing just to see yourself argue...
You win!!
/not
I'm done....
I haven't seen you even put an argument together yet. I'm still waiting. ICak at least brought something to the table that was meaningful. He at least knew that Ricky Williams was a part of that offense unlike you. The only thing you tried is to throw out was some Ronnie Brown argument without even realizing that he was performing better the year before.
I haven't even dumped on Kubes in this thread actually. It's been more of a defense for Sparano since their seems to be some double standard here as to how coaches are being judged or criticized, but I don't think you even realize how backwards you sound when one minute you're acting like Kubes is this next up and comer for minimal improvements each season and Sparano is just a phony for a huge improvement in one season.
But carry on with the jokes and the smilies. I'll wait for the insults and personal attacks to come next when you can't come up with anything else to use as a factual counter point to a civil discussion.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
So the Lions can't be compared to a team that was 1-15??? To answer your question, I think it's going to be a tough situation to turn around man. The Lions still have a lot of big needs. A lot of it will ultimately depend on Mathew Stafford and how he ends up playing for them in the next two years though. I figured that the Dolphins situation would be a much tougher situation to turn around to though and never would have expected the results that Sparano and Parcells achieved. So, it's a lot more possible than what you and I both think. The Falcons had a monumental turn around as well in one season under a rookie QB, so that was another example of a team turning things around much faster than what people would have expected, but they also had a great off season that year.
And for the record Thunder, I don't necessarily think that Sparano is this world beater as a coach. He got off to a great start though and over achieved. The Dolphins team over all is really not that great to me. It's good in some places, but not so good in others. They're balanced and they know their identity, but they still have quite a few missing pieces and there future will depend a lot on how their young QB develops as well and if they can get him some play makers to throw to. Their running game is solid though. The great thing with the Texans now is that we've got Schaub and seems to be the real deal, so we've got the most important piece.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
I would love to see Joe Texan lead a cheer called, "Put the Pink Soap Away," to the cadence of "Pants on the Ground." That would be friggin comedy, but I am not sure if that is what he does. 
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
I would love to see Joe Texan lead a cheer called, "Put the Pink Soap Away," to the cadence of "Pants on the Ground." That would be friggin comedy, but I am not sure if that is what he does.
That would be hilarious!!!
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I would love to see Joe Texan lead a cheer called, "Put the Pink Soap Away," to the cadence of "Pants on the Ground." That would be friggin comedy, but I am not sure if that is what he does.
Must spread the rep. Nice one.I think that we can all agree on that much.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
You don't get it! In one sentence you call what he did "remarkable" and then you try and use it as a measuring stick for others' performance. It's "remarkable"! You can't set expectation level there. That would be literally insane.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Wait until next off-season. Which might extend 18 months or more if there's a work stoppage. Imagine arguing about theset things for 1 1/2 years! Holy Crap!
Is it reasonable to believe that team could be in the play-offs 4 years from now? If it takes 5 instead of 4, is that unacceptable?
If you say so. But that Dolphins team had the #4 total defense the year before the 1-15 season. The #5 scoring D... The Lions (like the Texans in 2006) have nothing.
Even the 2007 Saints had a great turnaround. But to compare the 2006 Saints to the Texans.... the 2006 Dolphins (2004, they had the #4 total D, #5 scoring D)to the 2006 Texans, the 2006 Falcons (2004 NFC Championship game)...
I don't understand how we can't draw parallels to coaches who had been successful....
But it's okay to expect the Texans to achieve like NFL Franchises that have been successful to some extent in "recent" history.
Gee..... I thought they had a solid but aging defense... 2 talented running backs.. & a gimmick laden ball control offense.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
It's just really, really rare.
That's like... the ONLY time that's happened in the Super Bowl Era, iirc.
And after going 11-5, they turned around and went 7-9 and the team looked like they quit on their coach down the stretch. Granted, they had some injuries but that's what depth and coaches are for, right?
Silver Oak
All Pro
"Judge Smails: It's easy to grin / When your ship comes in / And you've got the stock market beat. / But the man worthwhile, / Is the man who can smile, / When his shorts are too tight in the seat."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGpQej3o9eo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGpQej3o9eo
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Of course not. We actually met each other at YOUR cook-off and he was cool. Tex can just be inexorable sometimes...
gary
Hall of Fame
I am only kidding bro. I like the two of you and am just poking fun that's all.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
It also happened the season after the Atlanta Falcon's star QB got
locked up in Ft. Levenworth, their head coach screamed "SOOOEEEYYY!!"
after quitting on the team, and their entire organization was in disarray.
Please. We need to quit implying this team is "Kubiak-or-Suck." There are
options out there, it just seems too much of the fanbase has no faith in our
front office to make the proper selection. Who can blame them?
They'd rather have 7-9 to 9-7 seasons time and time again, than entrust
the selection of a new head coach to the group that brought us Tony
Boselli, Charley Casserly, Dom Capers, and David Carr. Fair enough.
Fear rules the Texans.
LonerATO
All Pro
best movie ever
Joe Texan
Inducted 04
I would love to see Joe Texan lead a cheer called, "Put the Pink Soap Away," to the cadence of "Pants on the Ground." That would be friggin comedy, but I am not sure if that is what he does.
Well Maybe it is
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
So we beat the Dolphins this year. That's a fact. Now nobody qualifies that as a quality win because they went 7-9 on the season. Didn't beat any quality teams, blah, blah, etc. Hmmm, so why was that? Was it poor coaching, was it key players going down, multiple injuries, etc.? Are those excuses for the Dolphins?
If Sparano is such a good coach why did they regress 4 games without any reference to anything ever rejected as an excuse for the Texans.
PS - Brady isn't an excuse since without Brady they were out at 11-5, a game better than won the division this year.
If Sparano is such a good coach why did they regress 4 games without any reference to anything ever rejected as an excuse for the Texans.
PS - Brady isn't an excuse since without Brady they were out at 11-5, a game better than won the division this year.
Mailman
Pwned by Hakeem
Dalemurphy for the muff'n win!
This is an excellent, nuanced, analytical post that the bottom-liners would be advised to read carefully and let it sink in.
Silver Oak
All Pro
if you're going to use the Falcons as an example, did they not show regression from '08 when they went to the playoffs, but missed them this year? using your logic, they should have won the conference and been in the SB this year.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Falcons had the first back to back winning seasons in franchise history after the mess they were in. They still finished 9-7, same as the Texans after losing their QB for games, their top RB and many other players. I heard Ryan interviewed yesterday. He said they weren't happy about it all and that the injuries were no excuse...that they expected more. I like that. As he said, many teams had injuries and it is something you have to deal with every year. The Texans should take that mindset.
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HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Falcons had the first back to back winning seasons in franchise history after the mess they were in. They still finished 9-7, same as the Texans after losing their QB, their top RB and many other players. I heard Ryan interviewed yesterday. He said they weren't happy about it all and that the injuries were no excuse...that they expected more. I like that. I think they get brought up because people seem to think the Texans are the only ones to come from a black hole. The Falcons were a certifiable mess and their coach and rookie QB have the team winning games. But I think we discussed this on page 105 or in another thread...it all runs together now
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Falcons had the first back to back winning seasons in franchise history after the mess they were in. They still finished 9-7, same as the Texans after losing their QB, their top RB and many other players. I heard Ryan interviewed yesterday. He said they weren't happy about it all and that the injuries were no excuse...that they expected more. I like that. I think they get brought up because people seem to think the Texans are the only ones to come from a black hole. The Falcons were a certifiable mess and their coach and rookie QB have the team winning games. But I think we discussed this on page 105 or in another thread...it all runs together now
The Texans finished 8-8 in 2007 and 2008 despite losing their starting CB and their starting QB for much of the time.
So, the Texans will have their first back to back winning seasons, one year after the Atlanta Falcons accomplished that feat... And, you are holding the Falcons up as an example!!! Wow! They've been in the league, what, 40 years?
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
You do know you are making my point right...floundering franchise, hopeless when it came to winning games for decades, top attraction goes down in a scandal of epic proportions and a rookie QB and a rookie coach with no NFL head coaching experience takes them to the playoffs and another winning record in their first 2 years. Kind of makes 4 years and almost there with all that talent seem insignificant huh?Thanks. Carry on.
No one from our organization has said any different.
Not saying you said they had..... but some people around here think the Texans F.O. & team are "Giddy" that they finished 9-7.
Everyone from the towel boy to the Owner has said they expected better, and are not satisfied with the 9-7 finish. Everyone has said they should have finished better than 9-7. Everyone of them said we should have been in the play-offs, and everyone of them said the goal is Super-Bowl, not 9-7, not play-offs.
Well yeah, if you want to negate the whole 40+ year history vs 8 years of history thing.
It's not like either coach removed 53 players from their roster, and added 53 players to their roster.
The Falcons had been to the NFC Championship game, and led the league in rushing less than 5 years before Smith got their. Some of the players, some of the infrastructure, and some of the "atmosphere" was still there when Smith got there. He started from a better perspective than Kubiak did.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Perhaps one of the reasons why some of these franchises flounder is because the owner listens to crazy fans talk about "all the talent" on a team like the 2007-2008 Houston Texans.
QB: mix between Sage Rosenfels and a QB with almost no starts
RB: Ron Dayne to a 3rd round rookie
WR: AJ and low level FAs and a 7th round trade
TE: 50yr old Bruener and a young 4th round QB convert
OL: E.Salaam, hasbeens and never will be's at C, young RT, UDFA RG
DE: Mario and nothing
DT: rookie 20yr old DT, TJ
CB: V.Hutchins, D.Faggins, rookie FBennett, etc...
S: N.Ferguson, C.Brown, and eventually E. Wilson
LB: DRyans, Greenwood, and a 7th round rookie playing out of position.
Yeah, I can't figure out how Kubiak only got 8 wins a season out of this roster!
Too much upheaval and unrealistic expectations plays a role in the failure of a lot of franchises.
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