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Peyton Manning Derby (Signs with Broncos)
- Thread starter Texan Asylum
- Start date
DonnyMost
lol football :D
Several things have to happen to get Peyton here.
1) Schaub's career has to essentially be over
2) Peyton has to be completely healthy
3) Peyton has to settle for being paid peanuts
The chances of even 1 of those things happening is pretty small, the chances of all 3 of them happening are pretty much non-existent.
1) Schaub's career has to essentially be over
2) Peyton has to be completely healthy
3) Peyton has to settle for being paid peanuts
The chances of even 1 of those things happening is pretty small, the chances of all 3 of them happening are pretty much non-existent.
Señor Stan
El Guapo
coachdent
Waterboy
Regardless as to whether or not it would happen with Manning coming to Houston, I have yet to hear anyone who can offer up how the Texans would get this done under the cap.
Borrowed from gs27:
The Texans numbers for the 2012 Salary Cap - $122 million is probably going to be at least $126 million.
Need to set baseline
42 projected returning players before cuts = 110.0 million before releases
6 projected signed FA = 26.0 million (see below)
Total cap overage = 10.0 million to cut
The chart then went on to explain whom the Texans should keep. I ommitted Foster now that he is signed.
Chris Meyers - 4.0 (if we can get him for that)
Mike Breisel - 2.0
Joel Dressen - 2.0
John Weeks - 1.0
Neil Rackers - 1.0
So that is $120 million. Factor in around $4-5 million for signing draft picks and we are right at the cutoff figure.
There would be cuts to be made. But it's all number crunching to a point.
Matt Leinart - 2.5
Jacoby Jones - 4.1
Kevin Walter - 3.0
Wade Smith - 1.5
Doubt very highly that Kubes would admit the mistake of WR2A and WR2B and getting rid of BOTH Jones and Walter. Walter's number of #3 million is manageable. But even so, this only frees up another $10 million or so.
The bottom line is, even with an incentive ladden contract, how do you fit Peyton Manning's number under the salary cap? He's got to command at least $15 million per year right?
I guess Schaub leaving would clear up another $8 million. Seems like a lot of moving and shaking for the Texans to really commit to.
:kubepalm:
Borrowed from gs27:
The Texans numbers for the 2012 Salary Cap - $122 million is probably going to be at least $126 million.
Need to set baseline
42 projected returning players before cuts = 110.0 million before releases
6 projected signed FA = 26.0 million (see below)
Total cap overage = 10.0 million to cut
The chart then went on to explain whom the Texans should keep. I ommitted Foster now that he is signed.
Chris Meyers - 4.0 (if we can get him for that)
Mike Breisel - 2.0
Joel Dressen - 2.0
John Weeks - 1.0
Neil Rackers - 1.0
So that is $120 million. Factor in around $4-5 million for signing draft picks and we are right at the cutoff figure.
There would be cuts to be made. But it's all number crunching to a point.
Matt Leinart - 2.5
Jacoby Jones - 4.1
Kevin Walter - 3.0
Wade Smith - 1.5
Doubt very highly that Kubes would admit the mistake of WR2A and WR2B and getting rid of BOTH Jones and Walter. Walter's number of #3 million is manageable. But even so, this only frees up another $10 million or so.
The bottom line is, even with an incentive ladden contract, how do you fit Peyton Manning's number under the salary cap? He's got to command at least $15 million per year right?
I guess Schaub leaving would clear up another $8 million. Seems like a lot of moving and shaking for the Texans to really commit to.
:kubepalm:
A time to chill
Waterboy
Wow, I couldn't have said it any better.
DonnyMost
lol football :D
Yes, you could have.
Manning is a savant at play-action, but not since the mid 2000's has he really been able to throw on the run effectively.
And that "noodle-arm, oft-injured" QB you speak of is top 5 in downfield passer rating (20+ yard passes) and also has started more games in the last 5 years than Andre Johnson. (64 vs 63) You ready to trade 'Dre away, too?
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
im not criticizing mcnair at all. ever since he put a gun to Kubiak's head and forced him to hire a competent Def. Coordinator, McNair has been in my good graces. Then with him signing Foster and taking care of him, he is the cat's meow.
I doubt he is going after Manning, but I would blame Kubiak/Smith and their warped sense of loyalty/chivalry more than McNair.
In fact, I bet McNair would rather have Manning truth be told. He would make a killing on merchandise and could extort the sponsors for more money.
I am sad you think I would put an agenda of criticizing the owner over my own desires for a championship for the Texans...also I wouldnt even be having this discussion if not for Matt's injury. If were going to have a QB coming off an injury, why not the better QB...and anyone with a pulse knows Manning is a better QB than Schaub...and I am a huge Matt guy and have been since day one.
A time to chill
Waterboy
No, I definitely would not trade away Andre Johnson. I think the Texans should at least make an attempt to woo Peyton Manning and Reggie Wayne to Houston. Our offense with Matt Schaub is good but not great. Think of how many red zone drives ended with Neil Rackers field goals. Also, Matt Schaub isn't really good under pressure situations like the 2 minute drill. Think back to last year's game vs. Oakland.
The Texans have a prime opportunity to turn their offense to one of the best in the league with Arian Foster, Peyton Manning, Reggie Wayne, and Andre Johnson. It's hard to see that team, if healthy, not winning the AFC championship and making a Super Bowl appearance this season.
DonnyMost
lol football :D
Good but not great?
You mean top 3/top 5 on a consistent basis isn't "great"??
Remember 2009? No running game, tons of field goals? How is that Matt's fault?
Not good under pressure? I beg to differ.
ckhouston
Veteran
Our offense is great when running the ball well. Matt is not great. Matt folds like origami under pressure. Someone posted the Raiders game to show he was talking to teammates and trying to fire them up. Funny thing the first pass he threw in that video was high, and the last was directly to the defender in the end zone to cost us the game. You Matt lovers can keep talking but I think his days with the Texans are over.
DonnyMost
lol football :D
We were 4th in total offense in 2009 with one of the worst running games in the entire NFL.
ckhouston
Veteran
Wait, you arent trying to say that we are a pass first team and all of our success is only attributed to the two good years Matt has had in his eight year career are you? Should we cut Foster and Tate to sign Matt to a 10 year extension? We are a running football team "now" ... it isn't 2009. I love that people have to go back to prove Matt's worth. I will do the same with Yates ... I will go back to when he was a rookie and won the only playoff game in franchise history.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Fgs in the redx zone are a direct effect of qb play. Redzone production is tracked and falls upon the qb unless you have a good running game. Schaub has had a better running game than peyton every yr he's been in houston,yet the colts have outscored houston every yr especially in the redzone.
Comparing what schaub has had and his lack of success and comparing that to peyton in the same light doesn't even stack up. Teams don't gameplan to play keep away with matt schaub. Miami had the ball for all but 14mins and still lost. Peyton and the colts always lead the league in fewest possession,yet they are always top 5. Why is that? Peyton Manning. He is a huge upgrade to schaub and I'm being conservitive.
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
For the record, I'm against bringing Manning to Houston in this particular situation. I think the Texans should talk about, and I'm sure they have, and say no.
I don't think anyone is trying to compare Manning at 100% and Schaub at 100% at the same age. That comparison would be ridiculous and would not be anywhere close to being in Schaub's favor or even to being even.
But what we're comparing is a 35 yo Manning coming off 4 neck surgeries to 30 yo Schaub coming off a foot injury. To me, there is just too much risk with Manning.
Malloy
Hall of Fame
I think you're right.
Man, all six are hot!!
hurray for common sense.
I think that if Manning wasn't a huge health risk, the Colts would have happily paid him.
1. Manning, not Luck, gives them the best chance to win the AFC South and possibly make another Super Bowl appearance (especially since Eli has more rings than he does)
2. Who better to teach the youngster Luck the tricks of the QB trade than, as some of you say, "the best QB in the history of the NFL" (I don't think so, BTW)
3. The Colts' offense is built around Manning, so why not put him back where he belongs?? If you don't, it's total rebuild city.
Those three things are well worth the signing bonus.
....oh wait, Irsay distinctly said, "it's not about the money"
So if the Colts don't want him, neither do I.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
SJP??? Holy threadjack, Batman!
Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Denver Post reports Manning will also visit #Cardinals & #Dolphins, after tonight's #Broncos visit. There's your 3 favorites to sign him.
Denver Post is correct. Peyton Manning is en route to Denver to visit the Broncos. First visit does not mean Denver is leader in clubhouse.
More Schefter on Manning: "Miami doesn't seem to have an advantage that it did a few days ago, in the estimation of ppl around the league."
Schefter on #Dolphins & Manning: "I think their chances are dwindling some." Cites same "circumstances" that drove away Harbaugh, Fisher.
******************************
John Clayton ‏ @ClaytonESPN Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Manning to Denver makes sense. Tim Tebow is the choice of the fans but Manning is the one name that can trump Tebow.
With Denver being Peyton Manning's first stop, they are big players in the Manning sweepstakes. Miami is still the favorite.
Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Denver Post reports Manning will also visit #Cardinals & #Dolphins, after tonight's #Broncos visit. There's your 3 favorites to sign him.
Denver Post is correct. Peyton Manning is en route to Denver to visit the Broncos. First visit does not mean Denver is leader in clubhouse.
More Schefter on Manning: "Miami doesn't seem to have an advantage that it did a few days ago, in the estimation of ppl around the league."
Schefter on #Dolphins & Manning: "I think their chances are dwindling some." Cites same "circumstances" that drove away Harbaugh, Fisher.
******************************
John Clayton ‏ @ClaytonESPN Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Manning to Denver makes sense. Tim Tebow is the choice of the fans but Manning is the one name that can trump Tebow.
With Denver being Peyton Manning's first stop, they are big players in the Manning sweepstakes. Miami is still the favorite.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
2007
18 Indianapolis Colts 16 28.1 450 446 27.9 1,706 3.8 106.6 19 23 119 26.7 4 0 1
22 Houston Texans 16 23.7 379 417 26.1 1,586 3.8 99.1 12 41 96 23.0 7 1 4
theory destroyed.
DonnyMost
lol football :D
A time to chill
Waterboy
Just because the Colts don't want him back doesn't mean Manning isn't still an elite QB. True enough he is in the twilight years of his career, but I think he still has it in him to win at least 1 more Super Bowl before he retires. Why can't that be with the Texans? The Colts are letting Manning go because they are willing to do something the Texans management have never really done - TAKE RISKS. The Colts realize that Luck may be one of the future elite QB of the NFL and are willing to let their franchise QB so that they can start to build around him. The Texans are happy to play it safe, make minor adjustments while everyone around them is getting better by doing all they can to make their team the best it can possibly be.
I just get so frustrated with the way this team is ran. How could they not even consider getting Manning. Unbelievable!
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Chris Mortensen ‏ @mortreport Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Even though #Texans have not jumped in and reportedly won't, they likely would be the heavy favorite if they expressed interest. #NFL32
3m Chris Mortensen ‏ @mortreport Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Manning's trip not a negotiation; does not reflect Broncos as 1st choice, per sources. It's Manning research. Other trips planned. #NFL32
10m Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Peyton Manning's trip west to Denver is expected to include other visits, such as the Arizona Cardinals, @mortreport and I are told.
Even though #Texans have not jumped in and reportedly won't, they likely would be the heavy favorite if they expressed interest. #NFL32
3m Chris Mortensen ‏ @mortreport Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Manning's trip not a negotiation; does not reflect Broncos as 1st choice, per sources. It's Manning research. Other trips planned. #NFL32
10m Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Peyton Manning's trip west to Denver is expected to include other visits, such as the Arizona Cardinals, @mortreport and I are told.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
I had dinner with my brother-in-law last night and we were talking about "what would we do" if we were Peyton Manning. And we both concluded we'd travel to a ton of cities like New York, Miami, Houston, DALLAS, etc etc. and "be seen". Eat dinner downtown, be noticed.... and just watch ESPN and the media go crazy. We'd eff with the media so bad. LOL. Dallas would be great to get the rumor mill swirling!!
Premier
Rookie
you proved him wrong, but whats your point?? that youre a good fact checker??? both run games were pedestrian, in the bottom half of the league, and a little over 100 yds separating them.. still waiting for your point..
DonnyMost
lol football :D
Lombardi's idea about signing Peyton and trading Schaub to the Redskins would work if not for one small problem. We have no money to give Peyton (especially if we ink all of our current FAs). The Skins would give us quite a haul for Schaub, though, as the Shannahan-Kubiak connection is strong and they no doubt appreciate Matt's talent. So, if Peyton is absolutely healthy and willing to take a significant pay cut, then we should explore this option, however unlikely it may be.
ckhouston
Veteran
Manning has been medically cleared to play, his neck is completely structurally healed, and he has been seen throwing again with velocity and accuracy (only questioned that had remained). Schaub has not been cleared to play, and may or may not ever be. I go with option 1.
Premier
Rookie
skins could find a much better package trying to move up or standing pat at #6. three of the teams infront of them have recently invested high picks on qbs and they could find themselves in a position to select RG3/Tannahill. the rams have decided to trade out of the #2 so theres washingtons chance to grab their qb there..
lets face the facts here with schaub, he wont get anywhere near the return people think hes worth.. 1 year left on his deal, his potential ready date is a bit sketchy, coming off an injury with a low success rate. all those things add up to him just being released to clear cap if they decide to go in another direction...
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
Yeah, and Schaub will be fully ready by May.
Sure... The biggest question about Manning that STILL remains is whether nerve regeneration in his neck had even started. There were recent reports that MAYBE it has. I'm not a doctor, I'm not going to pronounce him ready or not ready, or whatever. But like I said, the risks with him are way too high in my opinion.
Premier
Rookie
thats what i dont think people understand, peyton has been cleared, hes rehabilitating already. also schaubs injury is very serious. more serious than some people would like to believe..
http://www.sportsmd.com/SportsMD_Articles/id/283.aspx
DonnyMost
lol football :D
How are they going to get a "better package" by trading up? In that situation, you trade away assets to move up... you do not receive them.
The whole point is that the Redskins *like* Schaub, which we have many reasons to believe is true. They're not in the market for a QB to draft in this scenario. Shannahan wants to and needs to win *now*, and I'm guessing he trusts a Kubiak groomed QB over a rookie to save his career any day.
More baseless bullcrap with zero support to back it up.
Premier
Rookie
youre putting way too much stock in schaub... RG3 or Tannehill are right there for the skins taking.. Rams want to trade out, could open the door for the skins.. hell even flynn will be on the market. theres still a ton of questions about schaubs recovery that wont be answered until TC... RG3 sounds a lot more enticing than schaub...
ckhouston
Veteran
Not true. The regeneration allowed him to do what he was doing in the Duke video. If it wouldn't have regenerated he wouldn't have that kind of arm strength or accuracy. He is back. Is he 100%, no. But is he 70-80%, probably. If anyone says that a Manning (either one) at 75% doesn't own a Schaub at 100%, they should choose another sport to follow. Olympic curling would be the front runner.
Premier
Rookie
"better package" as in
RG3>>>>Schaub
baseless bullcrap.. sure ignore the facts about schaubs injury.. he'll be ready by may because kubiak says so.. if blind hope is your thing i see why youre so high on schaub...
DonnyMost
lol football :D
You're putting *way* too much stock in Tannehill and completely ignoring the context of the situation. It sounds like you were ready to bury Schaub before his body even turned cold. Remember, this is the Washington Redskins and Mike Shannahan is in his 3 year as head coach. He and Kubiak have a very strong relationship and they are very familiar with Schaub and recognize his value. Of all the teams in the NFL, the Redskins would be not only the most likely place for him to go and fit, but also the place that would pay the highest price.
DonnyMost
lol football :D
Why would they trade up if everyone ahead of them, besides Indy, isn't the market for a QB? How is that a better "package"? Giving away assets to receive a pick that you were going to get anyway?
The facts? Tell me, what do you know about Schaub's injury that no one else does? Are you drinking buddies with his doctor or something? We all know the risks of Schaub's injury, so don't act like you're privy to some information that we're not. You know just as much about Schaub's health and recovery chances as you do Peyton's, which would be damn near nothing.
Don't talk about ignoring facts when you've already gotten nearly every quantifiable statistic about Matt Schaub wrong in this thread (and then consequently doubled down on them!).
ckhouston
Veteran
"Stable Lisfranc injuries that do not require surgery may cause an athlete to miss 2 months or more of their season. However, most athletes are able to successfully return at some point. Those injuries that are unstable, and require surgical repair, are serious injuries that almost always cause the injured athlete to miss the remainder of their season. It is also not uncommon for a high level athlete to not be able to return to the same level of athletic performance even in following seasons. Two well-known examples are Eric Rhett and Duce Staley both of whom had surgery for a serious Lisfranc injury and never successfully returned to their pre-injury form."
DonnyMost
lol football :D
DonnyMost
lol football :D
Speaking of blind faith. You're willing to believe Peyton Manning's personal doctor's "cleared to play" recommendation without any kind of independent or team verification. You're also willing to believe reports that he was seen throwing with "velocity and accuracy" without corroboration. So, don't talk about having blind faith. You've clearly got an agenda against Schaub, so much so that you're even arguing against his trade value, despite the fact you obviously want to get rid of him no matter what happens.
ckhouston
Veteran
Wow, Oliver Stone is that you? Everything is huge conspiracy to this guy. His personal doctor "and" and second opinion from an independent surgeon in Los Angeles are what I base his being cleared on. As far as not corroborated that he threw ... are you serious? Have you ever watched him play? What is that a Peyton mimic throwing at Duke? His trade value is zero until he is cleared to play, and we do not know yet that he will ever be.
ckhouston
Veteran
DonnyMost
lol football :D
No, I'm waiting for some NFL people, particularly those interested in signing him, to verify his health and ability.
Neither of which has happened yet.
Would it make you feel better if I showed you a grainy 27 second youtube video of Schaub walking around without a boot? That has to mean he's totally NFL ready, right?
Last edited:
DonnyMost
lol football :D
You think Schaub's foot sees nearly as much wear and tear as other guys?
Think about it for a second. How much pressure is exerted on the foot of a guy who is running 4.40 second 40s and cutting all over the field? (WR/RB) How much pressure is exerted on the foot of a guy who is 320lbs and very on his ability to anchor himself in the ground? (OL/DL)
If you're a QB, your foot is certainly not the most career threatening place to have an injury, even if it's something severe. If he played another position, I would be significantly more worried.
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
That's exactly how I feel when I read Schaub haters' "arguments"
PapaL
Loose Screw
I don't understand why it has to be a "haters" argument. If you can upgrade your roster you should. No one in their right mind would say Schaub is better than Manning. Even an injured Schaub vs an injured Manning.
If they don't at least have the conversation of what can Player X, Manning in this case, do for us/will he make our team better then they, management, are doing a disservice to to the city, the franchise, and the fans.
If they don't at least have the conversation of what can Player X, Manning in this case, do for us/will he make our team better then they, management, are doing a disservice to to the city, the franchise, and the fans.
Wolf
100% Texan
being the discussion is about injuries. Cloak has given insight on the injuries (for some of y'all fairly new posters, Cloak is a doctor(not an official team doctor or anything like associated with either players ) but he puts things in easy to understand form))
some old info on Peyton injury from Cnd a while back
post 10
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82094&highlight=manning
and some more from CnD on Schaub
I know CnD has posted other stuff about both QB's but I haven't found it yet
some old info on Peyton injury from Cnd a while back
Only about 4% of cervical spine injuries in the NFL are suffered by QBs. When a QB expects to be sacked, he usually takes a fetal like position, with his head tucked in. Any trauma, accidental or not, to the top of his head by a defensive player is enough to create a herniation of a cervical disc. Once it occurs once, it becomes more vulnerable to lesser trauma. If one level is treated, it can put more stress on the adjacent disc. It can act as a domino effect. If Manning had his 2nd non-invasive procedure on the same segment, he can probably expect to go on to an open cervical fusion procedure (ala Slaton) sometime in the future........especially if he sustains further trauma to the area.
post 10
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82094&highlight=manning
and some more from CnD on Schaub
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86913&highlight=shaub&page=30
I know CnD has posted other stuff about both QB's but I haven't found it yet
I disagree. I think letting Manning go means just the opposite. The Colts are faced with a classic Risk Vs. Risk Trade. And they went the direction that presented their franchise with the best payoff.
Risk 1. Pay Manning and let him start, return the franchise to AFC South dominance (maybe), and school/groom Andrew Luck (they still have that #1 pick) while still maintaining respectability (and possibly Super Bowl appearances). Risk defined/Worse Case: Peyton doesn't have it any longer and you just wasted $28 million bucks that could have gone to rebuild your team. However, you can toss Luck into the fire and let him start taking his lumps.
Risk 2. Dump Manning and let Andrew Luck start. This saves $28 mil in cap space that can be used to start a "youth movement". Risk defined: Andrew Luck, and therefore the team, will likely suck until all the offensive pieces that were assembled for Peyton are replaced with pieces to support Andrew Luck. Worse Case: Luck is a bust and, you're right, Manning returns to form and appears in another Super Bowl.
In this Risk vs. Risk trade, kicking Peyton to the curb only makes sense if Irsay believes he's damaged goods.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
But the Texans have access to both Schaub and his doctors, and have throughout the entire process. Not even the Colts have that any longer as it relates to Peyton.
Wolf
100% Texan
I feel the same way about Manning as I do with Mario
If the Texans can afford him, fine that will be great.
but I also think the Texans have to look into what will happen within the next few years. Can we lock up Brown with a contract?
Cushing, Barwin, (and I am forgetting someone else) are going to need a new contract also
all these key players are fixing to hit their prime. Would a massive contract to Mario or Manning hurt the chances of those players staying in Houston? or will they be let go for basically nothing?
I know signing Manning would instantly put the Texans as favorites in the Super Bowl talk. however I guess I have my battle red koolaid glasses on,because I felt that last year with a healthy Schaub, we would have been in Indy.
either way I will be glad when Payton makes a decision
on a side note, I doubt Denver has a chance in hell. If I recall Manning doesn't hates to play in cold weather. (I don't have a link so that might just be an internet rumor that went wild)
If the Texans can afford him, fine that will be great.
but I also think the Texans have to look into what will happen within the next few years. Can we lock up Brown with a contract?
Cushing, Barwin, (and I am forgetting someone else) are going to need a new contract also
all these key players are fixing to hit their prime. Would a massive contract to Mario or Manning hurt the chances of those players staying in Houston? or will they be let go for basically nothing?
I know signing Manning would instantly put the Texans as favorites in the Super Bowl talk. however I guess I have my battle red koolaid glasses on,because I felt that last year with a healthy Schaub, we would have been in Indy.
either way I will be glad when Payton makes a decision
on a side note, I doubt Denver has a chance in hell. If I recall Manning doesn't hates to play in cold weather. (I don't have a link so that might just be an internet rumor that went wild)
Premier
Rookie
http://youtu.be/GOVAiFAmLc4
anyone questioning the validity of this video should be informed that peytons qb coach is Duke HC, David Cutcliffe..
anyone questioning the validity of this video should be informed that peytons qb coach is Duke HC, David Cutcliffe..