Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
So if everybody cheats, it isn't cheating?
Interesting perspective. I suppose that those dummy's couldn't just propose a rule change to match what everybody was doing that would have passed then.
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Patriots under investigation
- Thread starter Sigma
- Start date
So if everybody cheats, it isn't cheating?
Interesting perspective. I suppose that those dummy's couldn't just propose a rule change to match what everybody was doing that would have passed then.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
You don't have to prove that nobody else does it to enforce the rules. The rules were obviously violated and it was done intentionally. It is irrelevant if others deflated balls to the minimum spec as long as it wasn't below the minimum spec.
Yes officer. I was speeding, but so were a lot of others. Now just put away that ticket because it's no big deal.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I suppose you conveniently forgot the data suggesting this has been occurring since 2006 when New England suddenly began having extreme abilities to hang on to the ball over every other team in the league, most of whom also DEMAND ball control and possession by it's players. And the same players suddenly get worse after leaving New England.
There is indirect historic data that something happened and this appears to be a great candidate to explain the aberrant statistics. It also suggests that it was an institutionalized procedure which does affect the integrity of the game, regardless of Beliarcheats protestations.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I suspect that many have no clue why some times it's easier to hang onto the ball than others. But those who do probably like the ball deflated as well.
It's the kickers and punters who like the ball to be fully inflated.
As you said yourself, the "data" is indirect. What I want to see is actual pressure data from those seasons. Oh and you also need to demonstrate that the reduced pressure was the ONLY factor not something like signing RBs that are not fumble prone or better coaching or benching any RB that shows fumbling tendancies so he/they don't see the field.
All I'm saying is if this was a court trial and I was on the jury, you haven't shown me sufficient evidence to warrant a conviction to prove continuing violations since 2006.
A conviction for the AFC CG instance? Open and shut case. But you don't get to extrapolate one speeding ticket into a historical tendancy for reckless driving.
edit: and to be clear, I'm not defending the Pats, I could care less what penalty they get. I just don't like the lynch mob process I'm seeing.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
They've done a comparison that the same players while playing on other teams don't have the same stark no fumbling tendencies.
And c'mon to a degree. Lots of coaches have benching reputations, Kubiak for instance. Coaches come and go, you really think Belichick has some mystical coaching power that none of his other coaches can learn and take with them on fumbling?
I get what you're saying to a degree but this isn't some "they're at the low end" thing. They're on a completely different field.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Look, what's the first thing a defense wants to do to a QB? Knock him out of his comfort zone. If it's a pocket QB, make him move off his spot. If it's a mobile QB, pen him in. Get in his passing lanes, get your hands up. Hit him as often as you can. Pre-snap motion to mess with him. Disguise looks to throw him off. A QB that is uncomfortable is not going to play as well. The psi level of the ball is less important for the QB than the mental comfort of having things they way you like. So all the speculation that the psi wouldn't have mattered because of the score is off. If Brady had been off, you know how things can spiral in a game. It may still have been a blowout, but it may have been one small catalyst that screwed up his comfort zone, leading to other screw-ups, leading to mistakes. This is football. there are a lot of things that factor into the game. It's part of the reason we all love the game so much.
For ball carriers, it probably makes a much bigger difference.
For ball carriers, it probably makes a much bigger difference.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Pretty easy to do, just need the ref who did it.
SI Wire @SI_Wire
Sooooo, prove it.
If the needle does not fit...
So, do they start now at the SB?
I think in the end this will come back on Brady. There is word out now that a former Patriots employee is singing and pointing at the QB. Tom probably thought it was innocuous, something that would not matter in the big scheme of things. He probably never thought he'd be caught, much less during an AFC championship game.
I don't think this is a Patriots thing. Just something the QB probably arranged with the ball guy. I can see a monetary fine and maybe a game or two suspension if/when it gets resolved.
I don't think this is a Patriots thing. Just something the QB probably arranged with the ball guy. I can see a monetary fine and maybe a game or two suspension if/when it gets resolved.
but I'd bet if, theoretically, you were defending the Pats you'd plea bargain the one incident (cause they got caught) and move for dismissal of the 6-year trending charge due to insufficient evidence.
but I'd bet if, theoretically, you were defending the Pats you'd plea bargain the one incident (cause they got caught) and move for dismissal of the 6-year trending charge due to insufficient evidence.
yep. So they'll suspend Tom for the fourth preseason game.
yep. So they'll suspend Tom for the fourth preseason game.
yeah, that'll learn 'em by gawd
He'll go on the testing list now I imagine and possibly suspended for the start of next year
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Fortunately, this is not a criminal trial and the burden of proof is even less than a preponderance of the evidence, the standard for civil matters and much less than the beyond reasonable doubt standard.
But the smoking guns are the measurements of the balls two hours before the game by the ref compared to the measurements at half time with the balls used by Indianapolis providing a control group. That's close to the level of evidence you seek for that game. But the statistics do point toward institutionalized advantage by skirting and breaking the rules.
There's no Lynch Mob here. Just a desire for a level playing field.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
God those Patriots. Such an upstanding, outstanding franchise. Definitely a model to aspire to.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...-investigation-of-patriots-deflated-footballs
If true, why didn't the NFL just release this information and let the air out of this deflated footballs story before it blew up to proportions that they knew it would???
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
The IF is the problem. There are two anonymous "NFL sources" in conflict.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
That's from Rapoport, who is the league's media guy/gets their leaks.
They can just say Mortensen "mis-heard" the story. In 20 years one of the officials will break the real story and then we'll know. Maybe.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
I think this is morphing into a story about Roger Goodell.
There are questions about the integrity of the Patriots that rise up to ownership around the league.
There's a group of owners who think the Patriots get preferential treatment from Goodell, they see a real conflict of interest and this I think is key -- not just with Kraft, but some other owners as well.
There's lingering resentment about SpyGate and the leniency doled out and that the evidence of it all was destroyed by Goodell.
So why does the Commissioner have to hire outside council -- Ted Wells -- to conduct the deflation investigation? Because the other owners required an independent impartial outcome.
All of that is, to me, the beginnings of the end for Goodell, with the opposing force being the amazing revenue growth the NFL has had under Goodell's leadership. And money does speak. Let's see what salary the owners give him after this season/year.
There are questions about the integrity of the Patriots that rise up to ownership around the league.
There's a group of owners who think the Patriots get preferential treatment from Goodell, they see a real conflict of interest and this I think is key -- not just with Kraft, but some other owners as well.
There's lingering resentment about SpyGate and the leniency doled out and that the evidence of it all was destroyed by Goodell.
So why does the Commissioner have to hire outside council -- Ted Wells -- to conduct the deflation investigation? Because the other owners required an independent impartial outcome.
All of that is, to me, the beginnings of the end for Goodell, with the opposing force being the amazing revenue growth the NFL has had under Goodell's leadership. And money does speak. Let's see what salary the owners give him after this season/year.
How many superbowls have they won? Yeah, I think I'd be happy to aspire to those levels.
With the latest release that only ONE ball was under inflated by 2 pounds, I can't believe this is still even being discussed. Too funny.
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
Sooooo, do they now suspend the Superbowl winning coach/QB? No way that happens no matter what they find.
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
Hello, you seem like an impartial observer who happens to be from Boston. Do you think we should wait for the conflicting information to be vetted, or just forget about the whole thing immediately?
Remember when I asked to see the actual pressure data? This is why. It didn't make sense to me that you could get 11 footballs exactly 2 psi low without using a gauge (and a pump in case you've bled too much out) to do it. Think about it, how often do you miss your target pressure trying to pump up your car tires?
Much ado about nothing.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You're creating a false scenario. First you don't need the starting point. You know (a) it is at least 12.5 and (b) that the team is going to initially set all the balls at their chosen temp. By taking 12.5 as the starting point it if anything underestimates any change.
And nobody said "exactly." They said alternatively "at least" or "over."
Now where some actual data would be nice is the halftime measurements to clear up the conflicting reports there.
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Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
You are still beating your drum on this after countless players have blown this thing off and stated that it is fairly normal of QB's to get the footballs to how they like them? Now there is allegedly only one football that had the different PSI levels, and you still want to play Colombo here Cak? Lol!
Let it go man. It is over. The Patriots turned right around and beat one of the best defenses of all time, and at the end of the day they are never going to have any proof of the Patriots staff doing this in the first place. They were the best team all season, and they just beat the defending champs from last year. Tom Brady is now the GOAT as well.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You are still beating your drum on this after countless players have blown this thing off and stated that it is fairly normal of QB's to get the footballs to how they like them? Now there is allegedly only one football that had the different PSI levels, and you still want to play Colombo here Cak? Lol!
Let it go man. It is over. The Patriots turned right around and beat one of the best defenses of all time, and at the end of the day they are never going to have any proof of the Patriots staff doing this in the first place. They were the best team all season, and they just beat the defending champs from last year. Tom Brady is now the GOAT as well.
I said nothing to dispute Tom Brady or the Patriots greatness or wins so take your ankle-biter act somewhere else.
My bad... I wasn't clear. That's the data I wanted to see. The actual pressure measurements taken at halftime. I couldn't believe there were 11 balls at 10.5 psi. And, in my world (or former world) when you're X "below" requirements that means that's how much you missed the low end of the requirements spectrum. If you start at 13.5 and end up 2 psi below that, you're only 1 psi out of spec.
But I understand not everyone thinks like us geeks.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Generally I agree with you but in this particular instance I think given Brady's stated preference for a softer ball, it's safe to assume they routinely put them at or very near the lower limit.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
That was Mort's initial report. So now we either have dueling leaks or Mort misunderstood. It's beginning to sound to me like this "formal investigation" is a dog & pony show for those owners distrusting Patriots... and Goodell by extension. Roger trying to keep all 32 girlfriends happy at the same time, keeping those fat pay checks coming.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/03/ryan-grigson-asked-nfl-to-check-patriots-footballs/
So it wasn't a sting operation by NFL, and it wasn't brought to league's attention before kickoff...?
That begs the question, for me anyway, now how the hell would a GM who's sitting up with the owner in the press box, have any inkling whether the game balls had been tampered with...?
That begs the question, for me anyway, now how the hell would a GM who's sitting up with the owner in the press box, have any inkling whether the game balls had been tampered with...?
There's this newfangled thing called a communications network that all the coaches talk on and the owner listens to
There's this newfangled thing called a communications network that all the coaches talk on and the owner listens to
so the playcalls and associated chatter gets piped into the owner's box? 'cause I've yet to see a TV shot showing an owner with a set of headphones on. I'm askin' since you're in the know and all
so the playcalls and associated chatter gets piped into the owner's box? 'cause I've yet to see a TV shot showing an owner with a set of headphones on. I'm askin' since you're in the know and all
You know I'm guessestimatin' just as much as you are... and why limit to headsets when you can have Boze do it for you?
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
It's odd that conflicting information even exists. It's not like this is complicated or up to interpretation. It's a measurement. It happened or it didn't. And the league has all the involved personnel and data in-house and accessible. If Mortensen's report was inaccurate and causing damage, why wasn't it immediately challenged? I'm not asserting that Mort was right (it's still wait-and-see), but this already feels like it's being mishandled. If I were an owner, it would be triggering memories of the Spygate evidence.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Yup. The 2nd report is fishy. When Mort's story came out it was one phone call to investigate it and if it was as inaccurate as the 2nd report says, repudiate Mort before there was even a snowball to start rolling down the hill.
but isn't Mort the golden boy?
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
Pretty much he and Shefter.
Rapoport, who broke the second story, is the "insider" (like Shefter) for the NFL Network. He was also the Patriot's beat writer in Boston for three years. But Rapoport's "leaks" should be regarded as league-sanctioned press releases since they would otherwise serve a conflict of interest.
I can't remember a time when ESPN and NFL Network released conflicting reports on something so easily verifiable.
The personnel are accessible but I don't think they have recorded data. Think about it, would you recall, precisely, 11 specific data points without taking notes/writing them down. I saw someplace upthread where the refs didn't write any of the numbers down. They simple took pressure measurements and corrected the ones they found to be low. I doubt traceable data exists.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
On a 1 lb spec I think they would easily remember 2 lbs v. "a few ticks" whatever that means.
You normally fill your tires to 35 you may not remember which one you find at 32 and which at 31 but you damn sure notice if one or more are at 10.
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The part that really bothers me is the claim that you can't really tell the difference but "I like my footballs just so"...
If he's so exacting on how he likes them, then to say he can't notice if their different...
I'm thinking old Mort heard two statements from the refs... "11 of 12 footballs were low" and "one was 2 psi low" and mis-heard (and then reported) that all 11 were 2 psi low. Honest mistake.
Edit:
I wonder how Wilson got such exclusive rights to supply footballs that their name is written into the NFL rule book? Seems un-American.