infantrycak
Hall of Fame
The variance in empty ball weights dwarfs the weight difference of the air pressure differentials we are talking about. It's silly to go that route.
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Patriots under investigation
- Thread starter Sigma
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The variance in empty ball weights dwarfs the weight difference of the air pressure differentials we are talking about. It's silly to go that route.
I think an inflated ball is supposed to weigh between 14 and 15 ounces. I also think a commonly accepted weight of a cubic foot of uncompressed air is 1.29 ounces (there are a lot of factors that can affect that). I can't find out how much air must be compressed to fill a football to appropriate pressure.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Someone else mentioned this up-thread but it bears asking again:
Why don't the refs keep control of the balls until game time? Isn't that how MLB does it? Don't the umpires keep control of the baseballs until game time? Don't NBA refs keep control of the ball to be used in play throughout the game from tip off until final whistle?
Why is the NFL different?
I suspect that change may happen since teams like New England do not appear to concern themselves with following the rules.
Showtime100
Got JJ?
Someone else mentioned this up-thread but it bears asking again:
Why don't the refs keep control of the balls until game time? Isn't that how MLB does it? Don't the umpires keep control of the baseballs until game time? Don't NBA refs keep control of the ball to be used in play throughout the game from tip off until final whistle?
Why is the NFL different?
Second bolded part first. The stupidity in many NFL rules is what I was griping about during the Championship games. They are far and away the dumbest bunch of rules of any sport.
As for the first part. How's about the NFL put someone in charge of the footballs before AND during the game. Give the guy a needle and an air compressor and he can maintain the f'ing things throughout?
Whole story has been enlightening. I had no idea that teams were able to doctor the footballs to their liking prior to the game. To top it off, when a team gripes about it during a playoff game the NFL acts like their own standard mode of operations suddenly a big deal. Utterly incomprehensible. Only in the NFL.
I'll say one thing, the NFL knows when to stoke the fake fire.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
The total weight of air in an inflated to NFL max football is about 9.5 g. 2 psi off that drops it .7 g. So you have a ball weight variance of over 28 g and you're trying to measure a weight difference in approx .35 g per ft lb of pressure change. It's a bass ackwards way to come at the problem.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
There's one set of balls for each team.
I'm sure some of those are used in warmups.
But I bet the new process will be for teams to prepare 12/18/24 game balls plus however many clearly marked warm-up balls each needs, with the officials controlling the game balls from PSI check to pre-kickoff and then a league-employed ball-handler assigned to each team/sideline.
Interesting note: Tom Brady has had the same ball-boy since 2001.
9.5 grams = 0.33 ounces. Not much at all. I wonder how much water a ball absorbs on a wet day; a lot more than that, I'm sure.
My Physics is spot on because that was my original point.
Pressure and Weight are NOT the same thing.
YOU were the one who said they were...
You can get air pumps all day long on Amazon for $10-20. The requirement is in PSI, why wouldn't you stick a calibrated gauge on it?
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
So shouldn't he now be referred to as a ball-man?
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
And I quote the great Brisco_County:
Wise man indeed.
This relates to one of the reasons I dismiss most conspiracy theories out of hand. They're always elaborate, and require a bunch of people to keep a secret. Well people can't keep secrets.
Unless it's one person who you can trust to not sell you out.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Coincidentally, the only ball boy who drives a Lamborghini to the stadium.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
CSNNE @CSNNE
Man, the girls at CSNNE are really pushing it.
Blame somebody else/weather. Check. Post videos of anyone remotely related to the Patriots who questions the organization/coach/player to expose them to public backlash. Check. Attack anything that's not pro-Patriots. Check. "They hate us cuz they ain't us." Check. Now that's reporting, sheesh.
I think it was one of these guys who was pushing the idea that the Colts did this to the Patriots on Twitter yesterday, day before.
Man, the girls at CSNNE are really pushing it.
Blame somebody else/weather. Check. Post videos of anyone remotely related to the Patriots who questions the organization/coach/player to expose them to public backlash. Check. Attack anything that's not pro-Patriots. Check. "They hate us cuz they ain't us." Check. Now that's reporting, sheesh.
I think it was one of these guys who was pushing the idea that the Colts did this to the Patriots on Twitter yesterday, day before.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Belichick doing presser right now on the balls... they did reenactments over last 3 days.
Says texture you can feel, pressure is more difficult...
Patriots process of breaking in game balls surface adds 1 lb. PSI.(?)
Patriots set pressure to minimum allowable 12.5 lbs. PSI in controlled environment.
Took balls outside and they lost 1.5 lbs PSI due to atmospheric pressure.
Brought them back inside and the gained 1 lb PSI.
Never used "hot room" to prepare balls.
Now onto variations in pressure gauges.
And all footballs are different... non are the same.
Our QBs were able to differentiate some balls at 2 lbs. PSI difference, but not at 1 lb. difference. Belichick says he can't tell the difference.
We were best team in AFC. I'm embarrassed to have put so much time into these ball tests instead of the upcoming game. We [the Patriots] always stay as far away from "the line" of any rules as possible.
Declines to say anything about what the league has told him about what they have documented.
Says the balls changed themselves.
Wow. BB actually took a question about filming other teams signals... We filmed that in front of 80,000 people. If that was wrong, so be it. We've been disciplined for it.
Clearly a bit testy.
Says texture you can feel, pressure is more difficult...
Patriots process of breaking in game balls surface adds 1 lb. PSI.(?)
Patriots set pressure to minimum allowable 12.5 lbs. PSI in controlled environment.
Took balls outside and they lost 1.5 lbs PSI due to atmospheric pressure.
Brought them back inside and the gained 1 lb PSI.
Never used "hot room" to prepare balls.
Now onto variations in pressure gauges.
And all footballs are different... non are the same.
Our QBs were able to differentiate some balls at 2 lbs. PSI difference, but not at 1 lb. difference. Belichick says he can't tell the difference.
We were best team in AFC. I'm embarrassed to have put so much time into these ball tests instead of the upcoming game. We [the Patriots] always stay as far away from "the line" of any rules as possible.
Declines to say anything about what the league has told him about what they have documented.
Says the balls changed themselves.
Wow. BB actually took a question about filming other teams signals... We filmed that in front of 80,000 people. If that was wrong, so be it. We've been disciplined for it.
Clearly a bit testy.
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TexansBull
Hall of Fame
They should be able to recreate the low pressure balls by recreating the process that the patriots use and the temperature of the rooms and the temperature outside at the afccg. Do a series of tests and see what happens.
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Bulls on Parade
2017 Astros: Earn It!
But it still comes down to this. 11 of the 12 balls the Patriots prepped up were deflated under the NFL minimum size. Why weren't any of the 12 to 20 balls the Colts brought with them deflated? They had the same weather and the same preparation procedure. Or did the Colts initially set theirs to 13.5 PSI while the Patriots initially started at 12.5? If that's the case then of course you're going to have one go down to 11.5 or lower throughout the game if you started at the exact minimum in those weather conditions. The balls should have been tested again at halftime and deemed tainted balls.
The officials even threw some of the Patriots footballs out of the game - you could actually see them replacing the ball live - and bringing in a new ball that was concealed safely inside a chest. Do I believe the Patriots tried to gain a competitive advantage? Yes. They legally rubbed those balls down and tried to give Tom Brady the best possible grip in bad weather conditions. And they knew they were going to be under 12.5 PSI during the game if the balls were inflated to that minimum to begin with. The NFL has to change the rule that all balls have to be tested at 13.5 PSI before games (always on the high side) from now on.
I'm just sitting back relaxing and waiting to see what new clever way the Patriots will try to take advantage of the rules during the actual Super Bowl. They won three of their Super Bowls in the Belichick and Brady era by a field goal in each game against the Rams, Panthers and Eagles. And then they lost a couple of nailbiters to the Giants. If not for some of these "extra advantages" they might be 0-7 all-time in the Super Bowl and 0-5 in the Belichick and Brady era going into the Super Bowl against the Seahawks.
The officials even threw some of the Patriots footballs out of the game - you could actually see them replacing the ball live - and bringing in a new ball that was concealed safely inside a chest. Do I believe the Patriots tried to gain a competitive advantage? Yes. They legally rubbed those balls down and tried to give Tom Brady the best possible grip in bad weather conditions. And they knew they were going to be under 12.5 PSI during the game if the balls were inflated to that minimum to begin with. The NFL has to change the rule that all balls have to be tested at 13.5 PSI before games (always on the high side) from now on.
I'm just sitting back relaxing and waiting to see what new clever way the Patriots will try to take advantage of the rules during the actual Super Bowl. They won three of their Super Bowls in the Belichick and Brady era by a field goal in each game against the Rams, Panthers and Eagles. And then they lost a couple of nailbiters to the Giants. If not for some of these "extra advantages" they might be 0-7 all-time in the Super Bowl and 0-5 in the Belichick and Brady era going into the Super Bowl against the Seahawks.
Bulls on Parade
2017 Astros: Earn It!
He pretty much admitted to the fact that they used illegal under-inflated footballs but just made it sound like the Patriots weren't responsible for deflating them. Blame it on mother nature and science I guess. Well done, Bill Belichick. Just like he dodged that one reporter's question about "spygate" back in 2007. He just shrugged it off like it was a guy giving signs in front of 80,000 people. No big deal. They moved on and were punished by the NFL for it. It's not like the Patriots air on the side of caution and try to stay away as far as they possibly can from breaking any rules according to Belichick.
Only naive people could sit their with a straight face and not cringe at that unexpected conference. The man contradicted himself quite a few times. Either way he told the truth and if he did lie he did so in a gentleman's way. The Patriots aren't cheaters. If they are to be labeled anything negative it's the fact that they are "very classy cheaters" and do so in an elegant way.
TEXANRED
Texan-American
That we know. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find out other teams did the same thing. Probably nitrogen in a couple of those balls too. Yeah I am looking at you kickers.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/25/nfl-bears-plenty-of-blame-for-deflategate/
I think the air is coming out of deflategate.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
I think the air is coming out of deflategate.
But not before this(watch to end)...
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/patriots-press-conference-cold-open/2842425
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
You still didn't get it even when I spelled it out. Both the weight and pressure are components of mass with everything else being equal so they are directly correlated. The pressure and weight are simply separate paths to the same measure of mass. The rules reflect one path and weight reflects another. They are not unrelated as you suggested.
They're tied together. Volume = mass x density. Given that the football and the space inside are fixed, the amount of air will determine the weight. But it varies in miniscule amounts
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
AMAZING. He actually made a free throw. Conclussion: Shaq is a lousy free throw shooter and deflated balls are not the issue.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I believe the proper way to enforce the rule is to require the measurement be taken after the balls have been brought to expected game temperatures and adjusted at half time if temperatures are changing drastically during the game.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-are-the-components-of-air.htm#didyouknowout
"There are five major components of air: nitrogen (78.0842%), oxygen (20.9463%), water vapor (about 1%), argon (0.93422%), and carbon dioxide (0.03811%). Trace components make up another 0.002%. Out of all these substances, the one that animals (including humans) need to survive is oxygen, while plants require carbon dioxide and nitrogen.
The respiration of animals consumes oxygen and produces carbon dioxide as a byproduct, while plants consume carbon dioxide and produce oxygen. The world's ecosystems depend on this balance. The components of air may be altered by human activity, such as the burning of fossil fuels, which has increased the proportion of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.
Air has been a subject of study for scientists for hundreds of years. Like other gases, air behaves according to Boyle's Law, which states that the pressure and volume of a gas are inversely proportional in a closed system where the total quantity of gas and its temperature remain fixed. This means that a person can decrease the volume of air by compressing it, but its pressure will increase proportionally."
You are correct sir.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
They're tied together. Volume = mass x density. Given that the football and the space inside are fixed, the amount of air will determine the weight. But it varies in miniscule amounts
And how is this different than what I said?
Of course the key variable in this story is temperature so the equation should involve Temperature, Mass and density (Pressure). And since mass is constant, the relationship is direct. As temperature increases, the pressure increases and it's corollary as temperature decreases, the pressure decreases. Therefore; the temperature of the balls should be controlled at the time of inflation and measurement to match the temperature on the field at game time.
ps I have no doubt that the balls were handled in such a way that they would be under-inflated at game time and that the Patriots knew exactly what they were doing. No one know the rules better than the ones who skirt, break and manuipulate them.
In the post I quoted, you didn't say anything. you just obfuscated the issue
Aaah... now you're misquoting me - and possibly why you're not understanding me. I never said they were unrelated.
I never said you couldn't back out the pressure if you know enough other variables, i.e., temperature, density of gas, final volume of football, etc. my point is that it's more straight forward to put a gauge on the football and measure that directly.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I think you nailed it. I didn't understand what you were saying. My apology.
If less inflation makes the ball easier to throw and easier to catch, why wouldn't the NFL want to allow it in order to improve their product on the field?
I understand rules are rules, but I'm more curious as to why this particular rule exists in the first place if more tolerance would allow for a better product.
I understand rules are rules, but I'm more curious as to why this particular rule exists in the first place if more tolerance would allow for a better product.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
It's not every QB's preference, so there has to be a compromise. Aaron Rodgers prefers footballs over-inflated >13.5 lbs. Maybe they need a wider variance...?
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Deflategate fallout: NFL focusing on Patriots' locker-room attendant
Bam.
Rogue lockerroom attendant acting on his own.
Bam.
Rogue lockerroom attendant acting on his own.
Yeah, I agree. I was just curious about it, because I cannot think of a logical reason to keep teams from setting their own psi preference, especially in light of everything else the teams are allowed to do to the footballs before games.
Deflategate fallout: NFL focusing on Patriots' locker-room attendant
Bam.
Rogue lockerroom attendant acting on his own.
There you have it. Now, let's get this game and investigation over with, because there is a locker-room attendant that needs to take a quick trip to Switzerland.
Yep, he did this without any knowledge or direction from above.Deflategate fallout: NFL focusing on Patriots' locker-room attendant
Bam.
Rogue lockerroom attendant acting on his own.
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
A patsy taking the fall has been inevitable. The question is whether he'll talk.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
I'm sure Belichick already has his family locked away somewhere and has promised their demise should any information damaging to he or Brady become known.
markn
All Pro
Probably simpler just to shuffle him out the door with a great big bag of cash.