O'Brien vs. Kubiak

[Mr teX]

Slaton:

Steve Slaton Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Steve Slaton. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

I have a baseline for RB:
- one fumble per 100 touches, great.
- one fumble per 75 touches; OK, but you need to make a few plays.
- one fumble per 50 touches ==>> bench, unless you make a ton of big plays to make up for it.
If you don't even make play: CUT

Slaton's rookie year: 318 touches, 5.2 yards per touch, total 1,659 yards from scrimmage, 10 TDs, 3 fumbles (that's 1 fumble every 106 touches) ==>> Excellent.

He had speed; he made good cuts; he bounced off defenders, made them missed, or pulled away from them.

Slaton's second year: 175 touches, 4.9 yards per touch, total 854 yards from scrimmage, 7 TDs, 7 Fumbles (terrible).
Look at the game log here:

Steve Slaton 2009 Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Get Steve Slaton 2009 game log for regular season and playoff games on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

In game 7, a win against the Niners, Slaton scored 2 TDs, but he lost a fumble.
He rode the bench from then on.

The guys that replaced him:
- Ryan Moats, 114 touches, 4.4 yards per touch, 5 TDs, 3 fumbles (one every 38 touches; also terrible).
- Chris Brown, 95 touches, 3.6 yards per touch, 1 fumble (safe but not any good.)

.......

So you see, Slaton did ride the bench; and he was relegated to punt return duty the next year.

Where's that 2 seasons afterward that you're talking about.

P.S. - And like I told Steelb, I still have all the games somewhere in the house; at least a couple of his fumbles were of the unfortunate kind. He protected the ball correctly.

He rode the bench b/c he was hurt pretty much for every season after his rookie season, but he still saw touches every year after his rookie year all the way up to 2011 however few they were. Still does not erase the FACT of what i said........ which is that Kubiak kept giving him the ball after the debacle of 2009 that his season was. The only real reason why he was relegated to the bench & didn't see more touches is b/c by that time Foster was emerging..who he himself would have a bit of fumblitis in 2011 & had had fumble concerns coming out of college.

 

[Uncle Rico]

As a comparison, last year for Carlos Hyde:
255 touches, 4.4 yards per touch, 6 TDs, 4 fumbles (one every 64 touches) - poor to bad.

And on one of the play he almost made, after running for 60 yards (due to a big hole - not really making play to begin with), he fumbled the ball just before he reaches the end zone simply because he didn't switch the ball to the outside, away from the defender. So all 60 yards went for naught.

And here, he didn't have the ball in and tight.

Frank Clark Snags Carlos Hyde's Fumble on the Texans' First Drive

www.chiefs.com

That gave the ball to the Chiefs at the Texans 18.
It was fortunate that the D held the Chiefs to a FG there.

are you sure it wasnt a bad handoff by Deshaun Watson??? ------------------>

 

[steelbtexan]

As a comparison, last year for Carlos Hyde:
255 touches, 4.4 yards per touch, 6 TDs, 4 fumbles (one every 64 touches) - poor to bad.

And on one of the play he almost made, after running for 60 yards (due to a big hole - not really making play to begin with), he fumbled the ball just before he reaches the end zone simply because he didn't switch the ball to the outside, away from the defender. So all 60 yards went for naught.

And here, he didn't have the ball in and tight.

Frank Clark Snags Carlos Hyde's Fumble on the Texans' First Drive

www.chiefs.com

That gave the ball to the Chiefs at the Texans 18.
It was fortunate that the D held the Chiefs to a FG there.

That was an unfortunate play.

I was very happy with the year Hyde had last year and would take another one just like it. You wouldn't?

With that said a 3 down RB would be great, but it's a luxury the Texans can't afford in this draft. Because this is a deep RB draft they may get lucky and find one late. A guy like Damien Williams

 

[Mr teX]

You can nitpick & come up with all types of special metrics all you want, Fact is Hyde was a good pick up for what we sent off vs. what we got in return vs. what we would've went into the season with.

Listening to your drivel you would be trying to convince us that Keenum is a franchise qb when pretty much all 32 teams in the league have RESOUNDINGLY said otherwise.

 

[Uncle Rico]

LMAO the logic being used in here to argue vs stats and video evidence is equivalent to this:

2 + 2 = turtle

 

[76Texan]

He rode the bench b/c he was hurt pretty much for every season after his rookie season, but he still saw touches every year after his rookie year all the way up to 2011 however few they were. Still does not erase the FACT of what i said........ which is that Kubiak kept giving him the ball after the debacle of 2009 that his season was. The only real reason why he was relegated to the bench & didn't see more touches is b/c by that time Foster was emerging..who he himself would have a bit of fumblitis in 2011 & had had fumble concerns coming out of college.

You meant all the 22 touches in 2010 and 8 touches in 2011?
He was still on a rookie contract that cost pennies.
Just a third string back that doubled up as a Kick returner (with no fumble).

 

[76Texan]

You can nitpick & come up with all types of special metrics all you want, Fact is Hyde was a good pick up for what we sent off vs. what we got in return vs. what we would've went into the season with.

Listening to your drivel you would be trying to convince us that Keenum is a franchise qb when pretty much all 32 teams in the league have RESOUNDINGLY said otherwise.

You need to read more carefully.
I said that Hyde was fine; he's just not a franchised back.

I never said Keenum was a franchised QB.
I said he was at least a good stop-gap QB; back then, he was too young to be a journeyman, a status that he had now reached.

I thank you for bringing it up though.
It's a good opportunity for me to clarify things a bit.

Case Keenum Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Case Keenum. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Career 62.4% completion percentage on 2,091 attempts in 62 games
75 TDs (3.6% - meaning 3.6 TDs per 100 attempts)
47 Ints (2.2%)
6.6 AYA (Air yard per attempt)
6 4QC (4th quarter come back) one in every 10.33 games
10 GWD (Game winning drive) one in every 6.2 games
131 rushing attempts, 6 TDs (one TD in every 10.33 games)
42 first downs, .68 per game
33 fumbles, .53 per game

Joe Flacco

Joe Flacco Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Joe Flacco. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Career 61.9% on 5,932 attempts (Worse than Keenum) 171 games
218 TDs (3.7%) (Just .1% more than Keenum)
141 Ints (2.4%) (.2% worse than Keenum)
6.4 AYA (lower than Keenum - ie; he didn't go deep as much)
18 4QC - one in every 9.5 games (more often than Keenum)
24 GWD - one in every 7.125 games (fewer than Keenum)
357 rushing attempts, 16 TDs, one in 10.69 games (slightly lower than Keenum)
118 1st downs, .69 per game (pretty much the same as Keenum)
89 fumbles, .52 per game (pretty much the same as Keenum)

.......................

So, which one is the franchise QB, and which one is the nothing-more-than a third-string QB?
You tell me.

And Flacco, overall, had the continuity in staying with one team for the most part, except for last year.

Keenum had a new OC pretty much every year, a new offensive line pretty much every year (which were almost always worse than what Flacco had), worse weapons overall, worse defense overall, and worse HCs overall.

 

[Texecutioner]

You can nitpick & come up with all types of special metrics all you want, Fact is Hyde was a good pick up for what we sent off vs. what we got in return vs. what we would've went into the season with.

Listening to your drivel you would be trying to convince us that Keenum is a franchise qb when pretty much all 32 teams in the league have RESOUNDINGLY said otherwise.

Oh he did!


@76Texan argued it for Keenum years all over this site, and still can't admit about those failures in analysis.

Funny thing is it sure does go against and contradict half of the crap he tried to argue in this thread for Kubiak.

There's no consistency what so ever from that crowd. It's only standard is the double standard for that argument.

 

[Mr teX]

You need to read more carefully.
I said that Hyde was fine; he's just not a franchised back.

I never said Keenum was a franchised QB.
I said he was at least a good stop-gap QB; back then, he was too young to be a journeyman, a status that he had now reached.

I thank you for bringing it up though.
It's a good opportunity for me to clarify things a bit.

Case Keenum Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Case Keenum. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Career 62.4% completion percentage on 2,091 attempts in 62 games
75 TDs (3.6% - meaning 3.6 TDs per 100 attempts)
47 Ints (2.2%)
6.6 AYA (Air yard per attempt)
6 4QC (4th quarter come back) one in every 10.33 games
10 GWD (Game winning drive) one in every 6.2 games
131 rushing attempts, 6 TDs (one TD in every 10.33 games)
42 first downs, .68 per game
33 fumbles, .53 per game

Joe Flacco

Joe Flacco Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Joe Flacco. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Career 61.9% on 5,932 attempts (Worse than Keenum) 171 games
218 TDs (3.7%) (Just .1% more than Keenum)
141 Ints (2.4%) (.2% worse than Keenum)
6.4 AYA (lower than Keenum - ie; he didn't go deep as much)
18 4QC - one in every 9.5 games (more often than Keenum)
24 GWD - one in every 7.125 games (fewer than Keenum)
357 rushing attempts, 16 TDs, one in 10.69 games (slightly lower than Keenum)
118 1st downs, .69 per game (pretty much the same as Keenum)
89 fumbles, .52 per game (pretty much the same as Keenum)

.......................

So, which one is the franchise QB, and which one is the nothing-more-than a third-string QB?
You tell me.

And Flacco, overall, had the continuity in staying with one team for the most part, except for last year.

Keenum had a new OC pretty much every year, a new offensive line pretty much every year (which were almost always worse than what Flacco had), worse weapons overall, worse defense overall, and worse HCs overall.

You meant all the 22 touches in 2010 and 8 touches in 2011?
He was still on a rookie contract that cost pennies.
Just a third string back that doubled up as a Kick returner (with no fumble).

Again, all the rookie contract stuff and where he was on the depth chart is immaterial to what Kubiak kept doing with him..which is continue to put the ball in his hands when he knew this dude was a fumble machine.

And u need to argue the topics at hand instead of pulling out every strawman and excuse you can to prop up Kubiak....& keenum.

Noone has said Hyde was a franchise back...everyone here has been in agreement that he was a good pick up and had a good season for us ......FOR WHEN AND WHERE WE GOT HIM & WHAT WE GAVE UP TO GET HIM.

No one has said that BoB didn’t inherit a better team than Kubiak did....One thing among many you're failing to grasp is that it doesn't matter who inherited what & when. The point is 1 guy was still rather needlessly scuffling 4-5 years in to get his teams just to be mediocore & whose teams were CONSTANTLY falling short of expectations...even as they got good in his later years. The other guy is winning divisions and playoff games with Brian Hoyer & Brock Ozweiler while in an outright battle with a sub par GM picked by the previous HC...His teams more often than not OVER ACHIEVE despite obvious holes.

Those are the unequivocal facts. Deal with it.

 

[Uncle Rico]

Duke Johnson was a better back than Carlos Hyde especially at the 3rd round cost, and would have opened up the offense more than Hydes "3 yards and a cloud of dust" running style.

Hyde is a JAG. His numbers look just like Lamar Millers did. Duke Johnson in the lead role would get 1000 yards + be able to be a receiving option on 1st and 2nd downs. Starting RBs under Bill OBrien are guaranteed to get 1000 yards just be sheer attrition. Only when you get the special guys like Arian do the numbers pop at you. Same thing would happen with Duke or any other running back who defenses couldnt key on.

 

[76Texan]

Again, all the rookie contract stuff and where he was on the depth chart is immaterial to what Kubiak kept doing with him..which is continue to put the ball in his hands when he knew this dude was a fumble machine.

And u need to argue the topics at hand instead of pulling out every strawman and excuse you can to prop up Kubiak....& keenum.

Noone has said Hyde was a franchise back...everyone here has been in agreement that he was a good pick up and had a good season for us ......FOR WHEN AND WHERE WE GOT HIM & WHAT WE GAVE UP TO GET HIM.

No one has said that BoB didn’t inherit a better team than Kubiak did....One thing among many you're failing to grasp is that it doesn't matter who inherited what & when. The point is 1 guy was still rather needlessly scuffling 4-5 years in to get his teams just to be mediocore & whose teams were CONSTANTLY falling short of expectations...even as they got good in his later years. The other guy is winning divisions and playoff games with Brian Hoyer & Brock Ozweiler while in an outright battle with a sub par GM picked by the previous HC...His teams more often than not OVER ACHIEVE despite obvious holes.

Those are the unequivocal facts. Deal with it.

Regarding Slaton, you're moving the goal post.
You said Kubiak kept giving him the ball two years later.
Duh, he was cut less than 2 years after the fumbling thing occured.

 

[76Texan]

Again, all the rookie contract stuff and where he was on the depth chart is immaterial to what Kubiak kept doing with him..which is continue to put the ball in his hands when he knew this dude was a fumble machine.

And u need to argue the topics at hand instead of pulling out every strawman and excuse you can to prop up Kubiak....& keenum.

Noone has said Hyde was a franchise back...everyone here has been in agreement that he was a good pick up and had a good season for us ......FOR WHEN AND WHERE WE GOT HIM & WHAT WE GAVE UP TO GET HIM.

No one has said that BoB didn’t inherit a better team than Kubiak did....One thing among many you're failing to grasp is that it doesn't matter who inherited what & when. The point is 1 guy was still rather needlessly scuffling 4-5 years in to get his teams just to be mediocore & whose teams were CONSTANTLY falling short of expectations...even as they got good in his later years. The other guy is winning divisions and playoff games with Brian Hoyer & Brock Ozweiler while in an outright battle with a sub par GM picked by the previous HC...His teams more often than not OVER ACHIEVE despite obvious holes.

Those are the unequivocal facts. Deal with it.

Regarding Keenum, where's the strawman?

Straw man - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

If anything, it was you who's been presenting a strawman argument.

You said I claimed that Keenum is a franchised QB, which I never did, from even before the draft.

 

[76Texan]

Again, all the rookie contract stuff and where he was on the depth chart is immaterial to what Kubiak kept doing with him..which is continue to put the ball in his hands when he knew this dude was a fumble machine.

And u need to argue the topics at hand instead of pulling out every strawman and excuse you can to prop up Kubiak....& keenum.

Noone has said Hyde was a franchise back...everyone here has been in agreement that he was a good pick up and had a good season for us ......FOR WHEN AND WHERE WE GOT HIM & WHAT WE GAVE UP TO GET HIM.

No one has said that BoB didn’t inherit a better team than Kubiak did....One thing among many you're failing to grasp is that it doesn't matter who inherited what & when. The point is 1 guy was still rather needlessly scuffling 4-5 years in to get his teams just to be mediocore & whose teams were CONSTANTLY falling short of expectations...even as they got good in his later years. The other guy is winning divisions and playoff games with Brian Hoyer & Brock Ozweiler while in an outright battle with a sub par GM picked by the previous HC...His teams more often than not OVER ACHIEVE despite obvious holes.

Those are the unequivocal facts. Deal with it.

We agreed on Hyde.
I never said he was a bad pick-up.

 

[76Texan]

Again, all the rookie contract stuff and where he was on the depth chart is immaterial to what Kubiak kept doing with him..which is continue to put the ball in his hands when he knew this dude was a fumble machine.

And u need to argue the topics at hand instead of pulling out every strawman and excuse you can to prop up Kubiak....& keenum.

Noone has said Hyde was a franchise back...everyone here has been in agreement that he was a good pick up and had a good season for us ......FOR WHEN AND WHERE WE GOT HIM & WHAT WE GAVE UP TO GET HIM.

No one has said that BoB didn’t inherit a better team than Kubiak did....One thing among many you're failing to grasp is that it doesn't matter who inherited what & when. The point is 1 guy was still rather needlessly scuffling 4-5 years in to get his teams just to be mediocore & whose teams were CONSTANTLY falling short of expectations...even as they got good in his later years. The other guy is winning divisions and playoff games with Brian Hoyer & Brock Ozweiler while in an outright battle with a sub par GM picked by the previous HC...His teams more often than not OVER ACHIEVE despite obvious holes.

Those are the unequivocal facts. Deal with it.

Regarding O'Brien, the unrefutable fact is that he inherited 17 starters that took him years to replace.
Not to mention the kicker, the punter, the LS, and depth like Bouye and Manning.

O'brien came up with mediocre results even as he only need to reload.
Bob McNair said so.
And Bill O'Brien agreed with everything McNair said - at least publicly.

You critize Kubiak for bringing in Schaub, yet you praise OB for "winning" with Hoyer, Mallett, Osweiler and the likes.

The same fault is only Kubiak, but not O'Brien.
How does that work?
Come on, bro.
You need to be consistent, please.

 

[Mr teX]

Regarding Keenum, where's the strawman?

Straw man - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

If anything, it was you who's been presenting a strawman argument.

You said I claimed that Keenum is a franchised QB, which I never did, from even before the draft.

never said you claimed he was a franchise qb. i said you would be trying to convince everyone he was one since you're the only one on this entire website that seems to think the texans would've been more than what they were the years he was brought back here under BoB.

Your whole premise for why you think Kubiak was a better HC here than BoB has been is based on things that have next to nothing to do with the results of his tenure here. Creating narratives that only want to focus on a select & limited view of his tenure while completely ignoring or downplaying the overall end results......or trying to explain away those things with excuses. I've seen JB alone correct you in this thread twice with "no one's arguing that".

 

[Mr teX]

Regarding O'Brien, the unrefutable fact is that he inherited 17 starters that took him years to replace.
Not to mention the kicker, the punter, the LS, and depth like Bouye and Manning.

O'brien came up with mediocre results even as he only need to reload.
Bob McNair said so.
And Bill O'Brien agreed with everything McNair said - at least publicly.

You critize Kubiak for bringing in Schaub, yet you praise OB for "winning" with Hoyer, Mallett, Osweiler and the likes.

The same fault is only Kubiak, but not O'Brien.
How does that work?
Come on, bro.
You need to be consistent, please.

The only reason the Schaub thing was brought up was b/c you asserted that Kubiak never "robbed Peter to pay Paul" or "mortgaged the future".....when in fact he did just that, yet another fib you came up with.

And again..........for the umpteenth time, Noone that is debating with you has been or is arguing with you that BoB has been better. The only person who seems to think there's a clear marked difference between the 2 is you.........in favor of Kubiak. Your whole argument is centered around crap that in the grand scheme of each of their tenures DOESNT MATTER & at least 4 of us in here have pointed to things that show that Kubiak and BoB are at worst the same guy. You're the only one trying to adamantly assert that 1 is better than the other. Remember, YOU started this thread. So the onus is on YOU to prove what you apparently firmly believe...............................

So far you've failed miserably.

 

[steelbtexan]

Duke Johnson was a better back than Carlos Hyde especially at the 3rd round cost, and would have opened up the offense more than Hydes "3 yards and a cloud of dust" running style.

Hyde is a JAG. His numbers look just like Lamar Millers did. Duke Johnson in the lead role would get 1000 yards + be able to be a receiving option on 1st and 2nd downs. Starting RBs under Bill OBrien are guaranteed to get 1000 yards just be sheer attrition. Only when you get the special guys like Arian do the numbers pop at you. Same thing would happen with Duke or any other running back who defenses couldnt key on.

You know this how?

 

[Mr teX]

You know this how?

he's right. a 1000 yard season isn't but an average of 70 yds per game...but there's nothing in Duke Johnson's career to suggest he would be able to do it or that he would be better than Hyde at running the ball this past season..At least Hyde had been a feature guy and had come close to doing it a few years tho. Duke's never seen more than 150 rush attempts in any 1 season...

Don't expect a response tho...don't you know you're on his ignore list lol.

 

[Uncle Rico]

2014 RB = Arian Foster - 260 attempts/1246 rushing yards 8TDs/327 yards receiving 5 TDs
2015 RB= ALFRED BLUE (LMAO) - 183 attempts/700 yards rushing 2Tds/106 yards receiving 1 TD (Arian was still the best RB in the passing game even with injury)
2016 RB= Lamar Miller - 268 attempts/1073 yards rushing 5 TDs/188 yards receiving 1 TD
2017 RB= Lamar Miller - 238 attempts/888 yards rushing 3TDs/327 yards 3TDs (crazy anomaly look at Arians pass catching yards year 1 wow) D'Onta good rookie that year.
2018 RB= Lamar Miller - 210 attempts/973 yards 5TDs/163 yards receiving 1 TD
2019 RB= Carlos Hyde - 245 attempts/1070 yards 6TDs/ 42 yards receiving (LOL) ... Duke Johnson 83 attempts/ 410 yards rushing 2 TDs/ 410 yards receiving 3TDs in a part time "scat back" role.

"derr howr du yer knew hows two extrapomalate noombers lyke dat?"


at·tri·tion
/əˈtriSH(ə)n/
noun
1.
the action or process of gradually reducing the strength or effectiveness of someone or something through sustained attack or pressure.

ex: Bill OBrien produces 1000 yard running backs through attrition on the defense with his inside dive.

 

[Mr teX]

Right...b/c a guy whose never seen more than 120 carries in any 1 season in his career & never come close to a 1000 yard season is all of a sudden ready to tote it 250+ times (touches over 270) in a run game primarily designed to attack through "attrition". Ok, gotcha .............on pace guy.

 

[steelbtexan]

2014 RB = Arian Foster - 260 attempts/1246 rushing yards 8TDs/327 yards receiving 5 TDs
2015 RB= ALFRED BLUE (LMAO) - 183 attempts/700 yards rushing 2Tds/106 yards receiving 1 TD (Arian was still the best RB in the passing game even with injury)
2016 RB= Lamar Miller - 268 attempts/1073 yards rushing 5 TDs/188 yards receiving 1 TD
2017 RB= Lamar Miller - 238 attempts/888 yards rushing 3TDs/327 yards 3TDs (crazy anomaly look at Arians pass catching yards year 1 wow) D'Onta good rookie that year.
2018 RB= Lamar Miller - 210 attempts/973 yards 5TDs/163 yards receiving 1 TD
2019 RB= Carlos Hyde - 245 attempts/1070 yards 6TDs/ 42 yards receiving (LOL) ... Duke Johnson 83 attempts/ 410 yards rushing 2 TDs/ 410 yards receiving 3TDs in a part time "scat back" role.

"derr howr du yer knew hows two extrapomalate noombers lyke dat?"


at·tri·tion
/əˈtriSH(ə)n/
noun
1.
the action or process of gradually reducing the strength or effectiveness of someone or something through sustained attack or pressure.

ex: Bill OBrien produces 1000 yard running backs through attrition on the defense with his inside dive.

So you think Duke can last for 16 games and the playoffs running the inside dive. LMAO

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Funny how the ignorer is engaging all the ignored.

 

[Texecutioner]

Funny how the ignorer is engaging all the ignored.

Have we ever had a guy that bragged this hard about all the people on ignore but still addresses with his posts? Lol!

 

[76Texan]

The only reason the Schaub thing was brought up was b/c you asserted that Kubiak never "robbed Peter to pay Paul" or "mortgaged the future".....when in fact he did just that, yet another fib you came up with.

And again..........for the umpteenth time, Noone that is debating with you has been or is arguing with you that BoB has been better. The only person who seems to think there's a clear marked difference between the 2 is you.........in favor of Kubiak. Your whole argument is centered around crap that in the grand scheme of each of their tenures DOESNT MATTER & at least 4 of us in here have pointed to things that show that Kubiak and BoB are at worst the same guy. You're the only one trying to adamantly assert that 1 is better than the other. Remember, YOU started this thread. So the onus is on YOU to prove what you apparently firmly believe...............................

So far you've failed miserably.

No.
The facts are out there; it's just you that twist them to try to wishy wash things.
Like I said, I don't want to get beyond year one yet.
But I definitely will, later on.

I had succeded partially showing that Kubiak started out with a much worse team.
Right now, I'm still concentrating on showing how vast of a gap that was.

That gap alone shows that O'Brien is a worse HC.

 

[76Texan]

Back to the situation of the RB Domanick "Davis" Williams; he cost $6.2M in 2006 (NFL cap space $102M)
That's a huge chunk of money, just lower than the 10th highest paid QB at the time.

2006 Quarterback Contracts and Salaries | Over The Cap

Ranking the top NFL 2006 Quarterback contracts and salaries in the NFL

overthecap.com

That's the equivalence of Le'Veon Bell's salary today ($13M vs. $188.2M cap space 2019)

And Kubiak did not have his service.
(Roughly 1,500 yds from scrimmage and 9 TDs average a year.)

In 2006, the Texans had one loss by 3, one loss by 4, another loss in OT, and a loss by 6.

 

[76Texan]

Then you have David Carr as the 8th highest paid QB who played nowhere near that status while the Saints signed Drew Brees to a six-year deal worth $60M
The cap charge for 2006 was only $5.5M though.

Brees takes money, runs to Saints

Drew Brees agreed to a six-year, $60 million deal with the New Orleans Saints that included a $10 million signing bonus.

www.espn.com

Don't forget that the Texans signed Matt Schaub a year later 6yr $48M (just $2M more per year), but the salary cap had increased from $102M (2006) to $109M (2007), so signing Brees would have been a breeze in 2006.

Or you can sign a guy like Charles Woodson
Charles Woodson 7-yr with Packers, only $18M total first 3 years guaranteed.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=2423159

Heck, with the money paid to Carr and DDWiliams, the Texans could have signed both Brees and Woodson.

 

[Mr teX]

No.
The facts are out there; it's just you that twist them to try to wishy wash things.
Like I said, I don't want to get beyond year one yet.
But I definitely will, later on.

I had succeded partially showing that Kubiak started out with a much worse team.
Right now, I'm still concentrating on showing how vast of a gap that was.

That gap alone shows that O'Brien is a worse HC.

So basically U want to focus in on the things you want to focus on to make him look better than he was here?.....gotcha. Fact are facts. If Kubiak was 1/2 as great as you claim he was, it wouldn’t have taken him 1/2 as long to accomplish the little bit of success he did have here. You can twist, exaggerate and get lost in all the minutia all u want. The MACRO picture of his tenure here speaks for itself...period.

Kubiak seems to be dealing with it better than u.?

 

[76Texan]

You guys just don't realize how much the NFL screw up the Texans expansion team.
They were stuck with some big contracts to old veterans from other teams; the one that did not work out at all was Boselli, and the team had to spent all of that guaranteed money.
And that only hurt the team further as they had to scramble to find and pay other vets.

 

[76Texan]

So basically U want to focus in on the things you want to focus on to make him look better than he was here?.....gotcha. Fact are facts. If Kubiak was 1/2 as great as you claim he was, it wouldn’t have taken him 1/2 as long to accomplish the little bit of success he did have here. You can twist, exaggerate and get lost in all the minutia all u want. The MACRO picture of his tenure here speaks for itself...period.

Kubiak seems to be dealing with it better than u.?

Why do you keep going away from year one when I repeatedly said that it's where I'm at right now.
If you want to talk about the next year, wait.

 

[76Texan]

So basically U want to focus in on the things you want to focus on to make him look better than he was here?.....gotcha. Fact are facts. If Kubiak was 1/2 as great as you claim he was, it wouldn’t have taken him 1/2 as long to accomplish the little bit of success he did have here. You can twist, exaggerate and get lost in all the minutia all u want. The MACRO picture of his tenure here speaks for itself...period.

Kubiak seems to be dealing with it better than u.?

And your point has always been that Kubiak should have done it better, but better than whom?
You can't even bring up a single example of a HC that is anywhere close to the same situation that had done it.

 

[76Texan]

Then you have David Carr as the 8th highest paid QB who played nowhere near that status while the Saints signed Drew Brees to a six-year deal worth $60M
The cap charge for 2006 was only $5.5M though.

Brees takes money, runs to Saints

Drew Brees agreed to a six-year, $60 million deal with the New Orleans Saints that included a $10 million signing bonus.

www.espn.com

Don't forget that the Texans signed Matt Schaub a year later 6yr $48M (just $2M more per year), but the salary cap had increased from $102M (2006) to $109M (2007), so signing Brees would have been a breeze in 2006.

Or you can sign a guy like Charles Woodson
Charles Woodson 7-yr with Packers, only $18M total first 3 years guaranteed.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=2423159

Heck, with the money paid to Carr and DDWiliams, the Texans could have signed both Brees and Woodson.

Let me remind everybody about the David Carr's situation here:

$8M bonus money charged to 2006 forward, plus base pay of $5.25M.
A total sum of $13.25M of wasted cap space and Kubiak was saddled with a lost cause.

That's a huge number.
The Texans could have signed Drew Brees easily with the salary/bonus for Carr and Schaub combined and still have money left.

 

[JB]

The Texans could have signed Drew Brees easily with the salary/bonus for Carr and Schaub combined and still have money left.

Except that the Texans never had to carry the salary/bonus monies for both at the same time

 

[dream_team]

4 Super Bowl rings VS zero.

End thread.

Go back to your regular lives. There's nothing to see here.

 

[76Texan]

Except that the Texans never had to carry the salary/bonus monies for both at the same time

What I meant is that they can use the money for Carr to pay for Brees in 2006, with leftover carried forward to pay Brees in the future years.

 

[76Texan]

Except that the Texans never had to carry the salary/bonus monies for both at the same time

Kubiak had to shell out $13.25M for Carr in 2006.
Schaub's 6-yr contract was worth $48M.
That's a total of $61.25M

Brees' 6-yr deal (starting with 2006) was $60M.

That's money left over to spend on something else.
And that doesn't even take into account the year-to-year cap space.

Brees' cap space in 2006 was only $5.5M vs. $13.25M for Carr.
The Texans could have used that cap space to bolster other positions and rebuild faster.

 

[Mr teX]

And your point has always been that Kubiak should have done it better, but better than whom?
You can't even bring up a single example of a HC that is anywhere close to the same situation that had done it.

Lol it’s not that I can’t name a coach who did it better, damn positive there are other coaches in the 100 year history of this league who have turned around a franchise inside of 3-4 years. What it is that I don’t care to play your little game b/c it’s utter nonsense. You act like Kubiak was in Dom Capers’ position when he took over the Texans, he wasn’t. There was talent on this team on both sides of the ball when he took over. Not a whole lot, but there was talent. And even though there was less on the offensive side, he had most of the MAJOR pieces of what would become his best teams in place by year 3....& it still took him 2 more years after that to get us to the point where we were somewhat a contender. And even then we were suspect.

Doesn’t matter if it’s year 1 or year 8, All you do...all you’ve continued to do in this thread is pull out every excuse in the book for Kubiak while minimizing the excuses on the other end for BoB. And I’ve said, this isn’t to say that BoB’s been Vince Lombardi, but it’s pretty obvious your in the bag for Kubiak. But the fact remains...the fact will ALWAYS remain that his tenure here was an utter failure.

 

[76Texan]

Lol it’s not that I can’t name a coach who did it better, damn positive there are other coaches in the 100 year history of this league who have turned around a franchise inside of 3-4 years. What it is that I don’t care to play your little game b/c it’s utter nonsense. You act like Kubiak was in Dom Capers’ position when he took over the Texans, he wasn’t. There was talent on this team on both sides of the ball when he took over. Not a whole lot, but there was talent. And even though there was less on the offensive side, he had most of the MAJOR pieces of what would become his best teams in place by year 3....& it still took him 2 more years after that to get us to the point where we were somewhat a contender. And even then we were suspect.

Doesn’t matter if it’s year 1 or year 8, All you do...all you’ve continued to do in this thread is pull out every excuse in the book for Kubiak while minimizing the excuses on the other end for BoB. And I’ve said, this isn’t to say that BoB’s been Vince Lombardi, but it’s pretty obvious your in the bag for Kubiak. But the fact remains...the fact will ALWAYS remain that his tenure here was an utter failure.

You keep using a circular argument.
A guy that shoots a 28 handicap in golf cannot be compared to a regular golfer.

.........

Even Bill Belichik can only muster one winning season with the Browns (and 4 losing seasons).
Kubiak also had one winning season in the first five years, but only 2 losing seasons.

.....

All of that are facts, not excuses.

 

[76Texan]

And I rephrase/summarize the skill positions here:

QB

In 2005, The QB was David Carr.
Before Kubiak came in, the Texans extended him;
$8M bonus money charged to 2006 forward, plus base pay of $5.25M.
A total sum of $13.25M of wasted cap space and Kubiak was saddled with a lost cause.

In contrast, when Matt Schaub was extended in 2012, he was guaranteed $24.75 - all of which was paid out between 2012-13

Schaub gets 4-year extension from Texans

Texans quarterback Matt Schaub announced Sunday that he's signed a four-year contract extension.

www.espn.com

Matt Schaub | NFL Contracts & Salaries | Spotrac.com

Matt Schaub signed a 2 year, $3,780,000 contract with the Atlanta Falcons, including $750,000 signing bonus, $750,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $1,890,000.

www.spotrac.com

The Texans traded Schaub in March 2014 for a 6th rounder.
O’Brien was free and clear to do whatever he wanted, with an extra pick in hand.
OB also got a solid backup QB in Keenum and a third string QB in Yates.
But he liked to bring in Mallett and Savage instead.

 

[76Texan]

After the QB and RB positions come the receiver’s.



WR


Kubiak inherited a great no. 1 receiver in AJ, who tallied 66, 79, and 63 catches the previous 3 years.

But he lost both no. 2 (Gaffney) and no. 3 (Bradford) as UFAs.

Gaffney was inconsistent, allowing the veteran Bradford to see the field.

He (Gaffney) was out of football in 2006 while Bradford played sparingly with Detroit in his last year in the league.


O’Brien inherited:

AJ who still had one good year left as the no. 1, and at least another year as a no. 2 receiver.

(But O’Brien told AJ he would not start in 2015, prompting the demand for a trade/release, no cap casualty.)

He also inherited a first-rounder star-on-the-rise in Hopkins with another year in the wing, ready to replace AJ - and still on a cheap rookie contract.

 

[76Texan]

For TE, the only one that Kubiak inherited was soon-to-be 34-yr-old Mark Bruener, a blocker.

And nobody else.

O’Brien decided to move on from OD, who went on to play for the Ravens (15 games, 48 catches, 4 TDs) and Broncos (16 games, 46 catches, 3 TDs).


O’Brien also inherited Graham and Griffin. These two had combined for 68 catches and 6TDs in 2013 (besides OD’s 24/3). The TE group as a whole, tallied 92 catches and 9 TDs.



The 27 year-old Griffin had a break out year for the Texans in 2016 with 50 receptions for 442 yards and two touchdowns. OB liked him enough to resign him in 2017

He was drafted in the sixth round of the 2013 NFL draft, so OB was benefited by his rookie’s contract.,


Another big advantage for O’B

 

[76Texan]

The contrast is so stark; it's not even funny.

But it doesn't end there.

 

[steelbtexan]

And your point has always been that Kubiak should have done it better, but better than whom?
You can't even bring up a single example of a HC that is anywhere close to the same situation that had done it.

Jimmy Johnson?
Bill Walsh?
Parcells?

 

[steelbtexan]

For TE, the only one that Kubiak inherited was soon-to-be 34-yr-old Mark Bruener, a blocker.

And nobody else.

O’Brien decided to move on from OD, who went on to play for the Ravens (15 games, 48 catches, 4 TDs) and Broncos (16 games, 46 catches, 3 TDs).


O’Brien also inherited Graham and Griffin. These two had combined for 68 catches and 6TDs in 2013 (besides OD’s 24/3). The TE group as a whole, tallied 92 catches and 9 TDs.



The 27 year-old Griffin had a break out year for the Texans in 2016 with 50 receptions for 442 yards and two touchdowns. OB liked him enough to resign him in 2017

He was drafted in the sixth round of the 2013 NFL draft, so OB was benefited by his rookie’s contract.,


Another big advantage for O’B

Terrible example, mediocre TE's at best, all of them. Bruenner wasn't brought in to catch passes, he was brought in as a blocking TE. Something he was light yrs better at than Griffin/Graham.

SMDH

LMAO

 

[steelbtexan]

After the QB and RB positions come the receiver’s.



WR


Kubiak inherited a great no. 1 receiver in AJ, who tallied 66, 79, and 63 catches the previous 3 years.

But he lost both no. 2 (Gaffney) and no. 3 (Bradford) as UFAs.

Gaffney was inconsistent, allowing the veteran Bradford to see the field.

He (Gaffney) was out of football in 2006 while Bradford played sparingly with Detroit in his last year in the league.


O’Brien inherited:

AJ who still had one good year left as the no. 1, and at least another year as a no. 2 receiver.

(But O’Brien told AJ he would not start in 2015, prompting the demand for a trade/release, no cap casualty.)

He also inherited a first-rounder star-on-the-rise in Hopkins with another year in the wing, ready to replace AJ - and still on a cheap rookie contract.

Why did he lose Gaffney, who went on to have a few very productive yrs with the Pats? For that matter why in 8 yrs couldn't RS find a better WR2 than Walter?

 

[steelbtexan]

And I rephrase/summarize the skill positions here:

QB

In 2005, The QB was David Carr.
Before Kubiak came in, the Texans extended him;
$8M bonus money charged to 2006 forward, plus base pay of $5.25M.
A total sum of $13.25M of wasted cap space and Kubiak was saddled with a lost cause.

In contrast, when Matt Schaub was extended in 2012, he was guaranteed $24.75 - all of which was paid out between 2012-13

Schaub gets 4-year extension from Texans

Texans quarterback Matt Schaub announced Sunday that he's signed a four-year contract extension.

www.espn.com

Matt Schaub | NFL Contracts & Salaries | Spotrac.com

Matt Schaub signed a 2 year, $3,780,000 contract with the Atlanta Falcons, including $750,000 signing bonus, $750,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $1,890,000.

www.spotrac.com

The Texans traded Schaub in March 2014 for a 6th rounder.
O’Brien was free and clear to do whatever he wanted, with an extra pick in hand.
OB also got a solid backup QB in Keenum and a third string QB in Yates.
But he liked to bring in Mallett and Savage instead.

Solid backup QB?

 

[76Texan]

Jimmy Johnson?
Bill Walsh?
Parcells?

The Cowboys won 27 games the 4 years prior, not 18.

The Niners, 20.
And Walsh had 2 winning seasons vs. 3 losing seasons.
Also, that was before the cap area.

The Giants won 23,
And Parcells also had just 2 winning seasons same as the Niners.
And that was also before the cap era.

 

[steelbtexan]

The Cowboys won 27 games the 4 years prior, not 18.

The Niners, 20.
And Walsh had 2 winning seasons vs. 3 losing seasons.
Also, that was before the cap area.

The Giants won 23,
And Parcells also had just 2 winning seasons same as the Niners.
And that was also before the cap era.

Johnson inherited talent that lead to a 1-15 season and within 3 yrs won a SB.

Numbers lie sometimes.

Kubiak being mentioned in the same breath as these legends is laughable and shows that 1. You have a very misguided view of the avg at best Smithiak regime. 2. You dont know what you're looking at.

 

[76Texan]

Jimmy Johnson?
Bill Walsh?
Parcells?

The Cowboys won 27 games the 4 years prior, not 18.

The Niners, 20.
And Walsh had 2 winning seasons vs. 3 losing seasons.
Also, that was before the cap area.

The Giants won 23,
And Parcells also had just 2 winning seasons same as the Niners.
And that was also before the cap era.

Terrible example, mediocre TE's at best, all of them. Bruenner wasn't brought in to catch passes, he was brought in as a blocking TE. Something he was light yrs better at than Griffin/Graham.

SMDH

LMAO

Oh, we all knew Bruener was mostly just for blocking; I even said so.
It doesn't remove the fact that the Texand did not have a pass-catching TE at that time.

 

[76Texan]

Johnson inherited talent that lead to a 1-15 season and within 3 yrs won a SB.

Numbers lie sometimes.

Kubiak being mentioned in the same breath as these legends is laughable and shows that 1. You have a very misguided view of the avg at best Smithiak regime. 2. You dont know what you're looking at.

A team that had won 27 games is not devoided of talents as a team that had won 18 games.
I don't see how you can even dispute that fact.

 

[76Texan]

Solid backup QB?

More than a solid back up.