Nick Caserio - keeper or kerb?

[jradMIT]

Whether or not trading the first round pick "fixes the problem" you absolutely trade up to get a potential probowl caliber player who was compared to Vonn Miller and Demarcus Ware. That's a risk I will take.

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Now if you want to say WA should've been taken at 1.2 and use the traded picks for players , we agree.

The trade to me only makes sense if it’s a QB OR you are one piece away from either having dominant top D or the teams one player away from being a SB contender. You need to be in a place where there are few holes, solid players down the line where only an impact players moves the needle.

The Texans have lots of holes. The three picks the #12, #33, 2024 1st can all be used. And this is the point that i think is missed, the trade up LIMITs your upside and concentrates your risk. How much better can WAJ be than expected? He was a top pick, his price was steep, he’d have to be a HOF with a healthy career. If something goes wrong (God forbid) then it’s a failure. However, if you use those picks, there’s a lot more room for upside, if you draft well,(I realize that might be a departure from the past), it’s much more possible for those players to exceed their expectations, and also you’ve now spread the risk among multiple players. Demarcus Ware and Micah Parsons are good examples of pass rushers exceeding expectations drafted around #12. Drafting Ware or Parsons or Watt or even Duane Brown or Deandre Hopkins for that matter isn’t like drafting TB12 in the 6th, it’s a realistic goal. If you look at history most trade ups don’t work out. Also now there isn’t an insurance against a bad season, which isn’t that improbable giving all the rookies, new systems and overall lack of talent and depth on the team.


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[steelbtexan]

The trade to me only makes sense if it’s a QB OR you are one piece away from either having dominant top D or the teams one player away from being a SB contender. You need to be in a place where there are few holes, solid players down the line where only an impact players moves the needle.

The Texans have lots of holes. The three picks the #12, #33, 2024 1st can all be used. And this is the point that i think is missed, the trade up LIMITs your upside and concentrates your risk. How much better can WAJ be than expected? He was a top pick, his price was steep, he’d have to be a HOF with a healthy career. If something goes wrong (God forbid) then it’s a failure. However, if you use those picks, there’s a lot more room for upside, if you draft well,(I realize that might be a departure from the past), it’s much more possible for those players to exceed their expectations, and also you’ve now spread the risk among multiple players. Demarcus Ware and Micah Parsons are good examples of pass rushers exceeding expectations drafted around #12. Drafting Ware or Parsons or Watt or even Duane Brown or Deandre Hopkins for that matter isn’t like drafting TB12 in the 6th, it’s a realistic goal. If you look at history most trade ups don’t work out. Also now there isn’t an insurance against a bad season, which isn’t that improbable giving all the rookies, new systems and overall lack of talent and depth on the team.


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Spot on post and a reason I wanted them to pass on QB in the last draft, pick WA and draft a QB in the better 2024 QB class.

 

[badboy]

The trade to me only makes sense if it’s a QB OR you are one piece away from either having dominant top D or the teams one player away from being a SB contender. You need to be in a place where there are few holes, solid players down the line where only an impact players moves the needle.

The Texans have lots of holes. The three picks the #12, #33, 2024 1st can all be used. And this is the point that i think is missed, the trade up LIMITs your upside and concentrates your risk. How much better can WAJ be than expected? He was a top pick, his price was steep, he’d have to be a HOF with a healthy career. If something goes wrong (God forbid) then it’s a failure. However, if you use those picks, there’s a lot more room for upside, if you draft well,(I realize that might be a departure from the past), it’s much more possible for those players to exceed their expectations, and also you’ve now spread the risk among multiple players. Demarcus Ware and Micah Parsons are good examples of pass rushers exceeding expectations drafted around #12. Drafting Ware or Parsons or Watt or even Duane Brown or Deandre Hopkins for that matter isn’t like drafting TB12 in the 6th, it’s a realistic goal. If you look at history most trade ups don’t work out. Also now there isn’t an insurance against a bad season, which isn’t that improbable giving all the rookies, new systems and overall lack of talent and depth on the team.


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I've argued your points myself, however I don't agree that WA has to be HOF to make it a good deal. You and I have our opinions but they crumble before Caserio/Ryans. I think most everyone agrees Anderson was DeMeco’s guy. DeMeco is 100% liked and respected. He okayed the trade. He felt the greater risk was worth it.

If he's correct, will you congratulate him as vociferously as you will blast him if he's wrong?

 

[jradMIT]

I didn't like the Stingley pick either. Lovie worked out both Sauce and Stingley and chose Stingley. My hope from the Stingley/Green draft is that while Caserio/Ryans are working together, Caserio will be able to tell Ryans, hey man we've got these 2 prospects rated about equal, lets go with the healthiest prospect.

The McNair's have always been meddlesome owners for different reasons. The Stroud pick was Hannah's attempt to fill NRG back up. (It worked) The Anderson pick was to placate Ryans. Agreed with the last sentence and it's one of the main reasons why the McNair's have never won anything and wont win anything significant as long as they own the team. This tradition has been carried on from Casserly/RS/BOB and now Caserio. Nothing has changed down on Kirby.

If Stroud by some chance of luck turns out to be a top 5 QB then the Texans will be a contender. I wouldn't bet on this.

I think that is the reality of this, and I should stop trying to layout why the trade wasn’t the right move, because it was a great move when your goal is to fill seats and energize the fan base which it was. When did the sell out streak end? Right after Covid? There were tickets still available for the first game, I remember when those would be gone the first day they went for sale, so needless to say the excitement even after the off season is still below where it was. I’m not that confident either, this team is really lacking in depth, very inexperienced, and I still believe the Texans organization has created a poor culture. I like Demeco a lot, but there has been so much dysfunction the past few years it’s a lot to right i his first season.


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[JB]

The trade to me only makes sense if it’s a QB OR you are one piece away from either having dominant top D or the teams one player away from being a SB contender. You need to be in a place where there are few holes, solid players down the line where only an impact players moves the needle.

The Texans have lots of holes. The three picks the #12, #33, 2024 1st can all be used. And this is the point that i think is missed, the trade up LIMITs your upside and concentrates your risk. How much better can WAJ be than expected? He was a top pick, his price was steep, he’d have to be a HOF with a healthy career. If something goes wrong (God forbid) then it’s a failure. However, if you use those picks, there’s a lot more room for upside, if you draft well,(I realize that might be a departure from the past), it’s much more possible for those players to exceed their expectations, and also you’ve now spread the risk among multiple players. Demarcus Ware and Micah Parsons are good examples of pass rushers exceeding expectations drafted around #12. Drafting Ware or Parsons or Watt or even Duane Brown or Deandre Hopkins for that matter isn’t like drafting TB12 in the 6th, it’s a realistic goal. If you look at history most trade ups don’t work out. Also now there isn’t an insurance against a bad season, which isn’t that improbable giving all the rookies, new systems and overall lack of talent and depth on the team.


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Didn't you want a QB drafted early? Seems I remember you were all in on a QB at 2. I believe they only drafted Stroud at 2 because they knew they could get WA at 3 (who Ryans and Caserio wanted). They didn't pay too much for a QB at 2

 

[jradMIT]

I've argued your points myself, however I don't agree that WA has to be HOF to make it a good deal. You and I have our opinions but they crumble before Caserio/Ryans. I think most everyone agrees Anderson was DeMeco’s guy. DeMeco is 100% liked and respected. He okayed the trade. He felt the greater risk was worth it.

If he's correct, will you congratulate him as vociferously as you will blast him if he's wrong?

If WAJ was DeMeco’s guy, great use your pick get a QB next season. This isn’t about WAJ per se it’s a about paying a premium to utilize your draft capital early to fill seats. What’s the goal? Hopefully to win a championship, I’ll back down to get to a conference championship game. WAJ could be very good, but if the team doesn’t reach that level of success you can’t say the trade worked out. If Stroud isn’t the guy, hard to say the trade was a failure in its own right. But if they do make an AFC title game I will be first in line to congratulate them.


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[jradMIT]

Didn't you want a QB drafted early? Seems I remember you were all in on a QB at 2. I believe they only drafted Stroud at 2 because they knew they could get WA at 3 (who Ryans and Caserio wanted). They didn't pay too much for a QB at 2

Not me, I didn’t have a strong opinion either way.


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[JB]

If WAJ was DeMeco’s guy, great use your pick get a QB next season.

That's what I wanted. But rumor has it the owner insisted otherwise

 

[The Pencil Neck]

The trade to me only makes sense if it’s a QB...

My position is that the trade was for the package of the QB and the DE.

Although this was not the QB I wanted and I would not personally have made this trade, IF you think CJ was the QB you wanted AND you thought WA was worth the #2 pick, then the strategy was sound.

If we had drafted WA at 2, we would have had to trade a helluva lot more to trade up from 12 to 3 to get CJ. Drafting CJ at #2 and then trading up for WA at #3 was the smartest/cheapest way to get both of them.

Now, if you don't like CJ and/or you don't think WA was worth a #2 pick, then this move was bad. But I think looking at the trade in isolation is short-sighted.

 

[Speedy]

San Fransisco 49ers:
1976 - Monte Clark
1977 - Ken Meyer
1978 - Peter McCulley

Also San Fransisco 49ers:
2015 - Jim Tomsula
2016 - Chip Kelly

The Texans don't even lead the league in being dysfunctional.

But their 70's dysfunction led them to Bill Walsh, and recently it led them to Shanahan. Hopefully all of this the Texans have gone through leading them to Ryans plays out the same way.

 

[thunderkyss]

This isn’t about WAJ per se it’s a about paying a premium to utilize your draft capital early to fill seats.

Where do we get this from?

I think there were only 8 true blue chips in this draft. Houston got two of them. Regardless the reasoning, that can only make your team better, faster if the coaches are able to maximize the talent they are given.

 

[steelbtexan]

My position is that the trade was for the package of the QB and the DE.

Although this was not the QB I wanted and I would not personally have made this trade, IF you think CJ was the QB you wanted AND you thought WA was worth the #2 pick, then the strategy was sound.

If we had drafted WA at 2, we would have had to trade a helluva lot more to trade up from 12 to 3 to get CJ. Drafting CJ at #2 and then trading up for WA at #3 was the smartest/cheapest way to get both of them.

Now, if you don't like CJ and/or you don't think WA was worth a #2 pick, then this move was bad. But I think looking at the trade in isolation is short-sighted.

Quoted for truth.

I just wish the football people had been able to make the call.

 

[steelbtexan]

Where do we get this from?

I think there were only 8 true blue chips in this draft. Houston got two of them. Regardless the reasoning, that can only make your team better, faster if the coaches are able to maximize the talent they are given.

Depends on if you think Strouds a true blue chip

 

[thunderkyss]

I just wish the football people had been able to make the call.

I think the football people made the call to get both. Do you have any reason to believe the football people did not like Stroud?

I'm not a football person, but my reason for not wanting to draft a QB was not because I didn't think there was a "worthy" QB. I don't think the team is good enough. Had I thought the team was good enough I wouldn't have argued against drafting a QB.

Maybe that was why the football people preferred the DE.

Depends on if you think Strouds a true blue chip

if the football people think Stroud is a true blue chip. Do you have any reason to think they do not?

I don't know if the marketers told them to take a QB. But even if they did, why Stroud? Why with the 2nd pick? A first round QB is a first round QB (to marketers), they could have satisfied them with a QB at 12. Hendon Hooker, Will Levis...

I think the football people decided which QB they were going to take & when.

 

[steelbtexan]

I think the football people made the call to get both. Do you have any reason to believe the football people did not like Stroud?

I'm not a football person, but my reason for not wanting to draft a QB was not because I didn't think there was a "worthy" QB. I don't think the team is good enough. Had I thought the team was good enough I wouldn't have argued against drafting a QB.

Maybe that was why the football people preferred the DE.


if the football people think Stroud is a true blue chip. Do you have any reason to think they do not?

I don't know if the marketers told them to take a QB. But even if they did, why Stroud? Why with the 2nd pick? A first round QB is a first round QB (to marketers), they could have satisfied them with a QB at 12. Hendon Hooker, Will Levis...

I think the football people decided which QB they were going to take & when.

Hannah wanted Stroud and that's who she got. Stroud was the safe pick in this draft if you needed a QB to market. He may or may not be a keeper, but the Stadium will be full on the 1st game of the season and that's what matters to the McNair's the most. Sad part is if they could've built a dynasty. Now they may if Stroud's good win a championship. But I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[jradMIT]

Where do we get this from?

I think there were only 8 true blue chips in this draft. Houston got two of them. Regardless the reasoning, that can only make your team better, faster if the coaches are able to maximize the talent they are given.

No one is arguing the team isn’t better, I’m arguing the team forewent the opportunity to make itself even better while having more flexibility for the future and also having a hedge against a bad season in 2023. Speeding up the clock as if this team was in a win now mode doesn’t make sense because this team is far away from competing for a title. As was just said, waiting a year to draft a QB made sense especially when considering the offense could be bolstered and more complete through another draft and off season. Also considering it’s everyone’s first year in the system and the OCs first year at the helm, might have been better if it wasn’t everyone’s first day.


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[thunderkyss]

Hannah wanted Stroud and that's who she got.

So it was Stroud specifically. Had Carolina taken Stroud the Texans wouldn't have drafted a QB? Is that what you're saying?

Stroud was the safe pick in this draft if you needed a QB to market.

I wonder why the Panthers took Young & the Colts took Richardson.

Are you saying Young & Richardson are better "football people" decisions & not as "marketable" as Stroud?

but the Stadium will be full on the 1st game of the season

I'm sure that's going to be more about DeMeco than anything else. Especially with Jj talking him up. When Jj talks, people in Houston just start buying sht... makes no sense to me.

Nobody... practically is "excited" about Stroud. I remember the David Carr marketing campaign. This ain't nothing like that.

 

[OptimisticTexan]

So it was Stroud specifically. Had Carolina taken Stroud the Texans wouldn't have drafted a QB? Is that what you're saying?


I wonder why the Panthers took Young & the Colts took Richardson.

Are you saying Young & Richardson are better "football people" decisions & not as "marketable" as Stroud?


I'm sure that's going to be more about DeMeco than anything else. Especially with Jj talking him up. When Jj talks, people in Houston just start buying sht... makes no sense to me.

Nobody... practically is "excited" about Stroud. I remember the David Carr marketing campaign. This ain't nothing like that.

If Stroud goes one, Texans go in another direction. I think the Texans draft Anderson at two, a WR with the other first round pick. Since the Texans did spend some time with Hooker, he might’ve been the QB on their radar.

Stroud’s initial success will be predicated on the play-calling, ability to run the ball, and the Texans receivers ability to break containment. I think fans are excited to see Stroud start versus having Mills (as much as I wanted this for 2023) back out there as the starter.

I’m just going to sit back and enjoy the season, and hope to see more than a few players establish themselves as the Texans core going forward.

 

[steelbtexan]

So it was Stroud specifically. Had Carolina taken Stroud the Texans wouldn't have drafted a QB? Is that what you're saying?


I wonder why the Panthers took Young & the Colts took Richardson.

Are you saying Young & Richardson are better "football people" decisions & not as "marketable" as Stroud?


I'm sure that's going to be more about DeMeco than anything else. Especially with Jj talking him up. When Jj talks, people in Houston just start buying sht... makes no sense to me.

Nobody... practically is "excited" about Stroud. I remember the David Carr marketing campaign. This ain't nothing like that.

They wanted Young, you know this, they settled for Stroud because he was the safest QB they could sell that was available. If they had to pick a QB high Young was the guy I wanted them to pick. But you know how I feel about this QB class.

Maybe your right about Ryans, but I doubt the stadium would be full if Mills was the long term starter.

 

[thunderkyss]

They wanted Young, you know this

No, I don't. There's no way I would have ever drafted Young at the top of the first. I can't understand how anyone would.

 

[76Texan]

Hannah wanted Stroud and that's who she got. Stroud was the safe pick in this draft if you needed a QB to market. He may or may not be a keeper, but the Stadium will be full on the 1st game of the season and that's what matters to the McNair's the most. Sad part is if they could've built a dynasty. Now they may if Stroud's good win a championship. But I wouldn't bet on it.

if it was all about selling seat, they wouldn't have keep trotting Mills out there all season while a vast number of fans already turned on him.
The Niners went out and get Jimmy G.
The Texans send Kyle Allen out there to make it a complete circus.

 

[steelbtexan]

No, I don't. There's no way I would have ever drafted Young at the top of the first. I can't understand how anyone would.

Ok, I guess you didn't see Cal's face when they lost to the Colts or heard the rumors.

Me either, but if I had to draft a QB, Young would have been my guy at 1-2.

 

[FuzzyLogic]

Ok, I guess you didn't see Cal's face when they lost to the Colts or heard the rumors.

Me either, but if I had to draft a QB, Young would have been my guy at 1-2.

That's a pretty epic logic jump, to go from Cal's face being 'disappointed' after the game and equating that to he wanted Young.

Maybe he just wanted the first pick in the draft, which means the Texans can do what they want - even trade it for a mint.
Perhaps it was a bad burrito at halftime.
Maybe Hannah ate all his chicken nuggets.

But it is a leap of faith to go from look he's frowning to he wanted Bryce.

 

[steelbtexan]

That's a pretty epic logic jump, to go from Cal's face being 'disappointed' after the game and equating that to he wanted Young.

Maybe he just wanted the first pick in the draft, which means the Texans can do what they want - even trade it for a mint.
Perhaps it was a bad burrito at halftime.
Maybe Hannah ate all his chicken nuggets.

But it is a leap of faith to go from look he's frowning to he wanted Bryce.

There have been reports that Caserio/Ryans wanted Young. Makes since, Bama alum.

 

[Texansballer74]

If Stroud goes one, Texans go in another direction. I think the Texans draft Anderson at two, a WR with the other first round pick. Since the Texans did spend some time with Hooker, he might’ve been the QB on their radar.

Stroud’s initial success will be predicated on the play-calling, ability to run the ball, and the Texans receivers ability to break containment. I think fans are excited to see Stroud start versus having Mills (as much as I wanted this for 2023) back out there as the starter.

I’m just going to sit back and enjoy the season, and hope to see more than a few players establish themselves as the Texans core going forward.

We would’ve had Young and Anderson. The Texans were very high on Young as well.

 

[sandman]

Ok, I guess you didn't see Cal's face when they lost to the Colts or heard the rumors.

Me either, but if I had to draft a QB, Young would have been my guy at 1-2.

There have been reports that Caserio/Ryans wanted Young. Makes since, Bama alum.

So Cal and Nick wanted Young real bad, but not bad enough to ensure a loss by firing Lovie before the final game or forcing him to sit good players?

 

[jradMIT]

So Cal and Nick wanted Young real bad, but not bad enough to ensure a loss by firing Lovie before the final game or forcing him to sit good players?

I think you’d get in trouble with the league for overtly tanking.


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[sandman]

I think you’d get in trouble with the league for overtly tanking.


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I guess the Bears didn't get that memo...

 

[thunderkyss]

Ok, I guess you didn't see Cal's face when they lost to the Colts or heard the rumors.

Did the look say, “CJ Stroud would sell a lot of tickets?” Was the rumor that he started the CJ Stroud marketing campaign then?

or was the look saying, “We gotta get better at the QB position!”

 

[thunderkyss]

There have been reports that Caserio/Ryans wanted Young

Funny no one else has seen them. Even if they had, it’s always lying season. We’ll never know what “they” we’re really thinking.

 

[Texansballer74]

So we’re looking at facial expressions and body language to validate your point.

What some will do to try to be right.

 

[OptimisticTexan]

I think you’d get in trouble with the league for overtly tanking.


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Firing Lovie would’ve been justified…..and Caserio taking the reins as interim HC for a game would’ve ensured the final results, not to mention….finally getting the coaching bug out of his system.

 

[jradMIT]

Firing Lovie would’ve been justified…..and Caserio taking the reins as interim HC for a game would’ve ensured the final results, and gotten the coaching bug out of his system.

You make a good point. I have this dark feeling, that it would be so Texan to tank for two seasons and fail to get the #1, and the year they try to win they end up picking in the same place.


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[OptimisticTexan]

You make a good point. I have this dark feeling, that it would be so Texan to tank for two seasons and fail to get the #1, and the year they try to win they end up picking in the same place.


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Unfortunately, the Texans and Caserio need the Browns to take a Texans like nosedive. Top 5 wouldn’t hurt my feelings, since that could put WR, Marvin Harrison Jr squarely in the teams cross-hairs. Even more important….the Texans need to finish the season with a record that would have them selecting between 10-15 to prevent the Cardinals from pulling off a back to back selection of QB- Caleb Williams and WR- MH Jr.

 

[steelbtexan]

So Cal and Nick wanted Young real bad, but not bad enough to ensure a loss by firing Lovie before the final game or forcing him to sit good players?

Do you realize how bad ownership is?

 

[steelbtexan]

Did the look say, “CJ Stroud would sell a lot of tickets?” Was the rumor that he started the CJ Stroud marketing campaign then?

or was the look saying, “We gotta get better at the QB position!”

Hannah wanted a QB to market, she got her guy. Let's hope it works out.

 

[badboy]

if it was all about selling seat, they wouldn't have keep trotting Mills out there all season while a vast number of fans already turned on him.
The Niners went out and get Jimmy G.
The Texans send Kyle Allen out there to make it a complete circus.

What if plan to get Stroud (or Bryce Young) was to play Mills?

 

[badboy]

That's a pretty epic logic jump, to go from Cal's face being 'disappointed' after the game and equating that to he wanted Young.

Maybe he just wanted the first pick in the draft, which means the Texans can do what they want - even trade it for a mint.
Perhaps it was a bad burrito at halftime.
Maybe Hannah ate all his chicken nuggets.

But it is a leap of faith to go from look he's frowning to he wanted Bryce.

Cal McNair doesn't eat burritos...
He is a burrito!

 

[badboy]

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[/QUOTE]
It's ok to tank as long as you put a 'C' in front of overtly...[/QUOTE]

 

[thunderkyss]

Hannah wanted a QB to market, she got her guy. Let's hope it works out.

So now it had nothing to do with the look on Cal’s face after the Colts game?

or did you mean the look on Hanna’s face after the Colts game?

 

[steelbtexan]

Funny no one else has seen them. Even if they had, it’s always lying season. We’ll never know what “they” we’re really thinking.

Either you believe this or you don't.

Hasn't the McNair's run org always been this way for the last 2 decades?

I'm out on the dog and pony show. Although I will hope for the best.

 

[steelbtexan]

So we’re looking at facial expressions and body language to validate your point.

What some will do to try to be right.

Let's revisit this after yr 3.

Get in bed with dogs and you're gonna get fleas

Better yet, let's not.

 

[steelbtexan]

Did the look say, “CJ Stroud would sell a lot of tickets?” Was the rumor that he started the CJ Stroud marketing campaign then?

or was the look saying, “We gotta get better at the QB position!”

Gotta get better is the quickest way to mediocrity. A McNair tradition.

 

[thunderkyss]

Either you believe this or you don't.

I'm just asking if you could stick to one conspiracy theory, or better yet, wrap them all into one.

 

[thunderkyss]

Gotta get better is the quickest way to mediocrity. A McNair tradition.

Only if you settle for "better" Hopefully, DeMeco won't let that happen.

 

[steelbtexan]

I'm just asking if you could stick to one conspiracy theory, or better yet, wrap them all into one.

It's not a conspiracy to believe the Stroud pick was a Hannah pick.

 

[Lucky]

It's not a conspiracy to believe the Stroud pick was a Hannah pick.

If that’s not a conspiracy, I don’t know what a conspiracy is. You have the octogenarian owner and her daughter in law forcing the Team President (and their son/husband), the GM, and the newly hired and heralded Head Coach to draft a player at 1.2 they did not want. And everyone kept quiet about the whole thing. Well, except to confidential sources of forum members.

That’s a Conspiracy with a capital C.

 

[steelbtexan]

If that’s not a conspiracy, I don’t know what a conspiracy is. You have the octogenarian owner and her daughter in law forcing the Team President (and their son/husband), the GM, and the newly hired and heralded Head Coach to draft a player at 1.2 they did not want. And everyone kept quiet about the whole thing. Well, except to confidential sources of forum members.

That’s a Conspiracy with a capital C.

I've got another capital C word to describe this

Cuck-hold.

 

[thunderkyss]

It's not a conspiracy to believe the Stroud pick was a Hannah pick.

I thought Cal had a look on his face at the end of the Colts game.

 

[thunderkyss]

If that’s not a conspiracy, I don’t know what a conspiracy is. You have the octogenarian owner and her daughter in law forcing the Team President (and their son/husband), the GM, and the newly hired and heralded Head Coach to draft a player at 1.2 they did not want. And everyone kept quiet about the whole thing. Well, except to confidential sources of forum members.

That’s a Conspiracy with a capital C.