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Manziel

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I hope JFF draft fans watched the last two games. He's an elite scrambler, and that's about it. He doesn't make decisions fast enough to compete at the NFL level, he hangs on to the ball waaaaaaaaaaay too long most of the time. Evans couldn't bail him out, so they lose, again. As an Aggie fan, I hope he drafts. We need someone new at the helm.

He gets most of his rushing yards on scrambles and broken plays. Very rarely does he do it on designed runs. LSU and Missouri both have good fronts that can rush the passer. They got after him, but kept him in the pocket and took that part of his game away. His struggles were obvious. In the two games against LSU and Missouri....

40/76 (52.6%) for 419 yards with 2 TD's and 2 INT's.
23 rushes for 75 yards.

He has improved his pocket passing this year, but his game is still reliant on getting out of the pocket and improvising. Keep him contained to the pocket the entire game and he's nowhere near as effective. That's been my main criticism of him all year long. This is exactly how NFL teams will attack him and he hasn't proven that he can succeed as a pocket passer.
 
His WRs failed him. He's also playing with a thumb injury on his throwing hand. But he made bad decisions, and that's on him.

I'm ready for some Kenny Hill/Kyle Allen.
 
His WRs failed him. He's also playing with a thumb injury on his throwing hand. But he made bad decisions, and that's on him.

I'm ready for some Kenny Hill/Kyle Allen.

Yeah, he was getting absolutely no help from his wideouts, same with the LSU game.
 
WRs definitely have an argument that they got no help from their QB..


From what I saw WR were running poor routes and were not in sinc. The OL got abused in pass pro. Don't really blame WR or QB as much as I do Sumlin. The disconnect was a sign of poor coaching. Sumlin teams play loose and not as well prepared as a Shaw, Fisher, Saban, Richt, Miles teams just name a few.
 
Not really a comment on Manziel - Evans sure does get away with a lot of offensive pass interference. That isn't going to fly in the NFL.

While I do agree with your premise, the NFL rarely calls it even though they do have stricter rules than the college game. I'd be more worried about a defender that plays physical (Darqueze Denard is a great example) than a receiver who does.

It's rare nowadays to see a play in the NFL where the defender is noticeably more physical than the receiver. Receivers get a ton of leeway because of the new rules and that's why PI is called at about a 95% rate on the defense.
 
While I do agree with your premise, the NFL rarely calls it even though they do have stricter rules than the college game. I'd be more worried about a defender that plays physical (Darqueze Denard is a great example) than a receiver who does.

I agree generally it is a rare call even in the NFL, but he is dumb about it and it looks habitual. He isn't getting a little shove in for separation while playing hand games with the defender. He is doing stuff like grabbing jersey and pulling backwards to slingshot himself by and that is going to get flagged in a heartbeat. More importantly, how is he going to look if he drops all of it in the NFL?
 
I agree generally it is a rare call even in the NFL, but he is dumb about it and it looks habitual. He isn't getting a little shove in for separation while playing hand games with the defender. He is doing stuff like grabbing jersey and pulling backwards to slingshot himself by and that is going to get flagged in a heartbeat. More importantly, how is he going to look if he drops all of it in the NFL?

Very true. LSU pressed him all game and was physical at the line of scrimmage and he was clueless as how to beat it. He's obviously still very raw as a WR. He has the physical skills, but is lacking the mental and technical skills that make guys like Dre and Megatron so good.
 
From what I saw WR were running poor routes and were not in sinc. The OL got abused in pass pro. Don't really blame WR or QB as much as I do Sumlin. The disconnect was a sign of poor coaching. Sumlin teams play loose and not as well prepared as a Shaw, Fisher, Saban, Richt, Miles teams just name a few.

I don't think that it's really Sumlin that's to blame. Clarence McKinney is not as good an OC as Kingsbury was, I think. Him and Manziel had a kind of rapport I do not see with McKinney.

Sumlin did rely on the run game more than before, and I liked that. A&M has an SEC quality running attack if it actually deigns to use it. Not using it in the LSU game to help out Manziel drove me nuts.

In all truthfulness I'm ready to have a true pocket passer in the Sumlin system in Kyle Allen. I wanna see a guy throw a few more strikes in the system, not screens and little dumpoffs every other passing play.
 
photoChase Engel@CutToThe_Chase_15m

#AskInsider If Bridgewater is the #1 QB, who would be the next to go?

photoMel Kiper Jr.@MelKiperESPN13m

Honestly, right now it would be Johnny Manziel .@CutToThe_Chase_ #AskInsider es.pn/1cdpQ6x
 
His WRs failed him. He's also playing with a thumb injury on his throwing hand. But he made bad decisions, and that's on him.

I'm ready for some Kenny Hill/Kyle Allen.


Don't forget, he was also playing with an injured throwing shoulder. I challenge any of you to try throwing accurately and with strength when you can't grip the football and your shoulder hurts every time you sling it. It shows his toughness that he gutted it out, but the fact is he shouldn't have been playing those last two games.
 
Don't forget, he was also playing with an injured throwing shoulder. I challenge any of you to try throwing accurately and with strength when you can't grip the football and your shoulder hurts every time you sling it. It shows his toughness that he gutted it out, but the fact is he shouldn't have been playing those last two games.

I've always been impressed by his toughness. The kid is a gamer.

However, his style of play has always been a huge criticism against him. Look how banged up he has been this year. He just won't be able to sustain this style of play at the next level. He's going to have to rely much more on his pocket passing ability instead of the freelancing, improvisational stuff he gets away with now.
 
Don't forget, he was also playing with an injured throwing shoulder. I challenge any of you to try throwing accurately and with strength when you can't grip the football and your shoulder hurts every time you sling it. It shows his toughness that he gutted it out, but the fact is he shouldn't have been playing those last two games.

I really feel like Kenny Hill should have been in those games. I mean, worst case scenario, A&M loses - which is what happened anyway. Besides, I've heard good things about the kid. Apparently he's a great player.
 
I've always been impressed by his toughness. The kid is a gamer.

However, his style of play has always been a huge criticism against him. Look how banged up he has been this year. He just won't be able to sustain this style of play at the next level. He's going to have to rely much more on his pocket passing ability instead of the freelancing, improvisational stuff he gets away with now.

Not only that, but the dude is aggressive to boot. He doesn't slide, he lowers the shoulder and tries to take the guy out. He's laid out college players, even a couple linebackers here and there but in the NFL that is simply asking for a career ending injury.
 
I've always been impressed by his toughness. The kid is a gamer.

However, his style of play has always been a huge criticism against him. Look how banged up he has been this year. He just won't be able to sustain this style of play at the next level. He's going to have to rely much more on his pocket passing ability instead of the freelancing, improvisational stuff he gets away with now.

Won't entirely disagree, but the main injury this year was his shoulder, and he injured that the same way Aaron Rodgers broke his collarbone: his shoulder was driven into the turf with a defender on top of him. It doesn't seem to me that he's more injury-prone than anyone else.
 
Don't forget, he was also playing with an injured throwing shoulder. I challenge any of you to try throwing accurately and with strength when you can't grip the football and your shoulder hurts every time you sling it. It shows his toughness that he gutted it out, but the fact is he shouldn't have been playing those last two games.

and a sprained knee and a sprained thumb on his throwing hand to go with that sprained shoulder. And didn't miss a game.
 
Strengths

He's an incredible competitor: When I've talked to coaches about Manziel, particularly the ones who've had to face him, what you hear first isn't about the incredible plays, the improvising or the athleticism and ability to make plays after the play design has fallen apart. They first zero in on his competitiveness and his will. For all the off-field questions that popped up during the summer, what Manziel brought on Saturdays as a competitor can't be questioned, and that resonates.

There's no such thing as a prototype: Manziel often gets compared to Russell Wilson, but a lot of that is just based on height and improvisational skills. And while there's something to be said for those traits, when Wilson was drafted I said he'd be a great test case for what the NFL has viewed as the ideal look of a quarterback. Wilson has succeeded because he's an exceptional player, but also because the Seahawks look for ways to maximize his skills, allowing him to beat defenses with his arm and his legs. Precedent has been set. Coaches seem to have a better sense now of how to do more to allow quarterbacks with various skills succeed, and Manziel should benefit.

Improvising is an NFL skill, too: Wilson is a great improviser -- but so is Peyton Manning, so is Tom Brady, so is Aaron Rodgers. The best quarterbacks are all great improvisers because improvising isn't just about running around, it's first about seeing the whole field, using your feet inside and outside the pocket to extend plays and having the football sense to adjust when plans go awry. Manziel has been a master at the college level, but credit his eyes and his understanding of where the opportunities are, not just his ability to run around. It's a skill he can use on Sundays, too.

Arm strength can improve: Manziel doesn't have a great arm, but he has an adequate one, and he can improve his ability to drive the ball through better mechanics. Manziel doesn't do a great job yet of getting his feet under him to make throws, particularly the intermediate and deep throws that he'll need to make to succeed in the NFL, where you have to stretch defenses or at least keep that threat constant. We've seen many QBs find more velocity as they become more consistent with mechanics, and Manziel can, too.

Questions

Make the pocket your friend: Manziel is a great improviser, but he's often too quick to use his feet not to maneuver in the pocket, but to exit it completely and get out in space. Good passing offenses thrive on timing, and making throws within the rhythm of the play, and if Manziel wants to be great, he'll need to do a better job of using his athleticism and instincts to navigate the tight quarters and throw on time.

The help: At Texas A&M, Manziel has had one of the better bail-out targets in all of college football in Mike Evans. Throw it up to the 6-foot-5 Evans, and what we'd normally call 50-50 balls can often turn into big plays. Texas A&M hasn't been completely loaded, but Manziel has had very good blocking (particularly at tackle), and has gone into many games knowing he was surrounded by superior talent. In the NFL, the difference between the best team and the worst team is typically much closer than the difference between even the best and worst teams in the SEC. He'll need to elevate his game, because huge advantages will disappear.

Dealing with failure ... and waiting: The Aggies have lost some games, but Manziel really hasn't dealt with much failure at the college level. Not only that, he's been a starter since he won the job in camp as a redshirt freshman. We don't yet know how he'll react to a string of rough games, and we don't yet know how he'll react to waiting in line, which could certainly happen.

Face of the franchise: From all I know, Manziel has been a great teammate and is an unquestioned leader on game day and on the practice field. But we know the scrutiny as a starting NFL quarterback extends far beyond the field to dealing with the spotlight, the media requirements, the standards you have to uphold as an endorser of a franchise or in the commercial space. Those are all now a huge part of the game. He has to graduate from a ballplayer to a well-compensated brand name. It'll demand maturity.

Where he stands

I've had Manziel ranked between 10 and 20 on my Big Board for a while now, and he's currently No. 2 among quarterbacks overall, behind Teddy Bridgewater. That puts him squarely in the first round based on my projections. Given the number of teams that need a quarterback, if he performs well during the draft evaluation process -- namely the combine, pro days and in interviewing with and working out for teams -- it wouldn't surprise me at all to see him go inside the top 10, where I see four teams that should be taking a close look at quarterbacks.
http://es.pn/1hXabzW
 
In the Manziel thread I have learned that Manziel's inconsistent mechanics are a pro because they can be improved. I have also learned that his injury history is a pro because it shows that he is tough.

In the Bridgewater thread I have learned that Bridgewater's inconsistent mechanics are a con because they are inconsistent. I have also learned that his injury history is a con because it shows that he isn't durable.

There are pros and cons for all of the QBs in this draft. But it is funny to see how we can all see the same player and interpret strengths and weaknesses in many ways, and depending on how we feel about that player can sometimes affect how we see other players. This same phenomenon seems to have made it's way to the Keenum threads as well quite some time ago.
 
In the Manziel thread I have learned that Manziel's inconsistent mechanics are a pro because they can be improved. I have also learned that his injury history is a pro because it shows that he is tough.

In the Bridgewater thread I have learned that Bridgewater's inconsistent mechanics are a con because they are inconsistent. I have also learned that his injury history is a con because it shows that he isn't durable.

Ha!, well played. :clap:
 
If the Texans draft clowney and somehow trade up to get Manziel then i'de be a very happy camper. I'll take Manziel over Bridgewater any day. I don't know why but i feel like he's going great NFL QB. Like the article says, you can't teach improvisation skills
 
In the Manziel thread I have learned that Manziel's inconsistent mechanics are a pro because they can be improved. I have also learned that his injury history is a pro because it shows that he is tough.

In the Bridgewater thread I have learned that Bridgewater's inconsistent mechanics are a con because they are inconsistent. I have also learned that his injury history is a con because it shows that he isn't durable.

There are pros and cons for all of the QBs in this draft. But it is funny to see how we can all see the same player and interpret strengths and weaknesses in many ways, and depending on how we feel about that player can sometimes affect how we see other players. This same phenomenon seems to have made it's way to the Keenum threads as well quite some time ago.

Yep ... if your kid knocks somebody down he's feisty . If the other kid knocks your kid down he's dirty . :boogereater:
 
If the Texans draft clowney and somehow trade up to get Manziel then i'de be a very happy camper. I'll take Manziel over Bridgewater any day. I don't know why but i feel like he's going great NFL QB. Like the article says, you can't teach improvisation skills

Bridgewater has exceptional improvisation skills as well problem is everyone around here & understandably so, have more familiarity with Manziel. Trust me though Teddy is no slouch difference is he uses his legs more to extend plays by passing not running but he can fly when he needs to.
 
If the Texans draft clowney and somehow trade up to get Manziel then i'de be a very happy camper. I'll take Manziel over Bridgewater any day. I don't know why but i feel like he's going great NFL QB. Like the article says, you can't teach improvisation skills

Improvisational skills are the most overated skill for a qb to posess....right up there with mobility.
 
Bridgewater has exceptional improvisation skills as well problem is everyone around here & understandably so, have more familiarity with Manziel. Trust me though Teddy is no slouch difference is he uses his legs more to extend plays by passing not running but he can fly when he needs to.

B.S.:pop:
 
If the Texans draft clowney and somehow trade up to get Manziel then i'de be a very happy camper. I'll take Manziel over Bridgewater any day. I don't know why but i feel like he's going great NFL QB. Like the article says, you can't teach improvisation skills

I haven't heard scouts saying he's the #1 pick but when i watch him i want him on my team cuz i don't think he can fail.... we need a qb i would honestly take him early
 
In the Manziel thread I have learned that Manziel's inconsistent mechanics are a pro because they can be improved. I have also learned that his injury history is a pro because it shows that he is tough.

In the Bridgewater thread I have learned that Bridgewater's inconsistent mechanics are a con because they are inconsistent. I have also learned that his injury history is a con because it shows that he isn't durable.

There are pros and cons for all of the QBs in this draft. But it is funny to see how we can all see the same player and interpret strengths and weaknesses in many ways, and depending on how we feel about that player can sometimes affect how we see other players. This same phenomenon seems to have made it's way to the Keenum threads as well quite some time ago.

I would take Manziel over Bridgewater. I believe that both QB's are equal in talent but the divider being mental fortitude. You have one QB (Bridgewater) hemming and hawing about coming out even though he is the #1 QB on the board. The other who knows he is ready for bigger and better things and knows exactly what he wants.

I am also amused that Manziel goes to a Texas frat party. That shows real testicular fortitude.
 
I would take Manziel over Bridgewater. I believe that both QB's are equal in talent but the divider being mental fortitude. You have one QB (Bridgewater) hemming and hawing about coming out even though he is the #1 QB on the board. The other who knows he is ready for bigger and better things and knows exactly what he wants.

I am also amused that Manziel goes to a Texas frat party. That shows real testicular fortitude.

We'll just have to disagree. Bridgewater does have a few legitimate concerns but that is not one.

First, I don't think they are equal in talent. Manziel is a better college player, but Bridgewater's skills translate better to the NFL, IMO.

Second, Andrew Luck was the #1 QB on the board after his redshirt sophomore season and he went back to school for another year. I don't remember his mental fortitude being questioned over that decision. Perhaps Bridgewater is being pressured to return by his coaches or his parents, and so therefore is exploring his options? As for Manziel, knowing what you want and being able to attain it are two different things. Every year the draft is littered with guys who left school early because they were ready for bigger and better things. Just because you want it does not mean that you will get it.

Third, if going to a party at a rival school has any impact on how a prospect is graded, then the grading process is flawed.
 
I would take Manziel over Bridgewater. I believe that both QB's are equal in talent but the divider being mental fortitude. You have one QB (Bridgewater) hemming and hawing about coming out even though he is the #1 QB on the board. The other who knows he is ready for bigger and better things and knows exactly what he wants.

I am also amused that Manziel goes to a Texas frat party. That shows real testicular fortitude.

“I’ve been hearing all these stories that I’ve made a decision — I haven’t made a decision,” Bridgewater said Monday, according to ESPN.com’s Brett McMurphy. “I will talk to my mom and the coaches before making my decision. I’m not leaning either way.”

http://tracking.si.com/2013/12/16/teddy-bridgewater-nfl-draft-2014-entering-undecided-return/

That's "hemming and hawing"? The guy is taking his time, and he still has a bowl game to play. Nothing wrong with waiting on making a life changing decision, the combine isn't until March. Even more info on his decision here: http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10149266/louisville-cardinals-teddy-bridgewater-undecided-entering-nfl-draftLink.

For comparison, Andrew Luck did not announce he was staying in school for his senior year until after his bowl game in January 2011.

And just an FYI, since you don't seem to bother researching stuff before posting, Manziel hasn't actually declared for the NFL draft yet. He has alluded to it, but hasn't said he will actually be in draft. Apparently he's concerned about his projected draft position. On a related note, Mike Evans hasn't declared either.
 
We'll just have to disagree. Bridgewater does have a few legitimate concerns but that is not one.

First, I don't think they are equal in talent. Manziel is a better college player, but Bridgewater's skills translate better to the NFL, IMO.

Second, Andrew Luck was the #1 QB on the board after his redshirt sophomore season and he went back to school for another year. I don't remember his mental fortitude being questioned over that decision. Perhaps Bridgewater is being pressured to return by his coaches or his parents, and so therefore is exploring his options? As for Manziel, knowing what you want and being able to attain it are two different things. Every year the draft is littered with guys who left school early because they were ready for bigger and better things. Just because you want it does not mean that you will get it.

Third, if going to a party at a rival school has any impact on how a prospect is graded, then the grading process is flawed.

The third thing is just my own personal like, not really something that you would grade on.

As a fan, for me, I like Manziel. Not overly passionate about either one though.

I would be more excited to see us draft Jake Matthews because championships are built on the back of offensive linemen.
 
The third thing is just my own personal like, not really something that you would grade on.

As a fan, for me, I like Manziel. Not overly passionate about either one though.

I would be more excited to see us draft Jake Matthews because championships are built on the back of offensive linemen.

Maybe if Mathews is Orlando Pace .

To me you pay Brown a ton of money . You draft Mathews #1 and now you have some serious money at the OTs position . This is what's wrong with the Texans now , no money for depth .
 
Maybe if Mathews is Orlando Pace .

To me you pay Brown a ton of money . You draft Mathews #1 and now you have some serious money at the OTs position . This is what's wrong with the Texans now , no money for depth .

Matthews is spelled with two, count them, two, T's. I should know that is my last name. Those who spell with one T are cheap Chinese made aftermarket Matthews' not to be confused with those of us who are certified genuine real Matthews. :fingergun:
 
Maybe if Mathews is Orlando Pace .

To me you pay Brown a ton of money . You draft Mathews #1 and now you have some serious money at the OTs position . This is what's wrong with the Texans now , no money for depth .

You could also argue that as the league continually moves toward a more passing prevalent league, having two quality tackles is a nice idea.

I like the idea of taking Matthews at #1, but we do need a pass rusher and a quarterback desperately.
 
You could also argue that as the league continually moves toward a more passing prevalent league, having two quality tackles is a nice idea.

I like the idea of taking Matthews at #1, but we do need a pass rusher and a quarterback desperately.

The two teams off the top my head that have two 1st rd OTs are the 49ers and Chiefs . I'll have to see where they saved money .
 
The Jags were starting two 1st round OTs until they traded Eugene Monroe. Now Joeckel is their LT, and I have no idea who their RT is.
 
The MMQB's Peter King hears Cleveland's front office "really likes" Texas A&M redshirt sophomore QB Johnny Manziel.

"...if they kept Chudzinski, they’d be asking him to develop the next quarterback, along with offensive coordinator Norv Turner," King writes. "What if there was a disconnect between the quarterback the front office wanted (I hear Cleveland really likes Johnny Manziel, who is not the Aikmanish pocket passer more to Turner’s liking..." It has been reported for quite some time that the Browns preferred the 2014 class over the 2013 class and have been doing plenty of homework on the available quarterbacks. We expect them to select one.

Source: The MMQB
 
Cleveland is a graveyard for promising QBs.
Hope JFF doesn't get drafted to that dumpster fire franchise.
 
Do you expect his cap hit/salary to be higher on his next contract?

In other words, is feasible for us to have both he and a #1 overall OT on the roster going forward?

Nope. He's 28 now, and will be about 31 by the time he's up for a new deal. Only problem is that the deal is heavily backloaded, which means he will need to be cut, or negotiate an extension in the future. He will have a lot of leverage over the team in those discussions if he's still playing at a high level. It could turn into another AJ type deal, where we just keep extending and restructuring him because the cap will require that.

Yeah, it's feasible to have a 1st round RT. It's not a good use of salary cap IMO, but it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. We are going to use about the same amount of money on whomever we pick. Having ~14m a year dedicated to the OT spots seems like a bit much to me.
 
Gil Brandt ‏@Gil_Brandt 15m

As we close in on Manziel's college finale I'm reminded of his Cotton Bowl effort last yr. Best individual performance Ive ever seen.
 
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