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Manziel
- Thread starter Wolf
- Start date
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WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
So Baylor averaging 61 point per game isn't good offense. Therefore, Oklahoma State holding them to 17 points isn't good defense.
Likewise, Oregon averaging 50+ points per game isn't good offense. Therefore, Stanford shutting them out for 3 quarters isn't good defense.
Meanwhile, A&M giving up 40+ points to Auburn, Mississippi State, and Alabama and 30+ to Ole Miss, LSU, and Arkansas is because of great offense. Oh yea 31 against Rice too. But hey, they have a great SEC offense as well......
I think we're done here. I have a threshold for debate and I think we've reached it. No need to continue further with the drivel you're spouting.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Granted not every team in the SEC has a good D. You're right the A&M D is pretty pitiful. One reason I don't understand why people are giddy about Sumlin to USC or the Texans. That along with the fact w/o Johnny Football, Sumlin could actually be closer to a .500 record. Some team is getting ready to get Franchioneed.
Texian
Hall of Fame
You're cherry picking. I never said there weren't good Defenses other than the SEC. And I never said there weren't good offenses outside of the SEC. I did reference overall that the SEC as a conference was better defensively collectively. Granted A&M D is pitiful, no denying that, I have said it many times but A&M more of the exception than the norm. As for Stanford, I had them as my preseason pick to be in the National Championship game vs Alabama. For the last two years I have been a strong proponent for David Shaw to be the next HC of the Texans and stated many times how Shaw has his team ready to play in all 3 phases of the game, week in and week out. In some of your cherry picking, weather has also played a pretty good defense but don't let that stop you. Advantage Teddy???
Texian
Hall of Fame
Yes it was me and this has already been much discussed. A review of this thread would be helpful. Teddy is 6'3" and weighs 205, ESPN has him listed at 196. Manziel at 6'0" and weighs 212. In retrospect Manziel appearance wise has broader steadier looking shoulders, Bridgewater appears thin with narrow shoulders. If your looking for argument there are plenty who will agree with you because they simply do not like Manziel. My observation of Bridgewater however is without bias and completely open minded. Trust me, with the Texans looking at the #1 pick I would hope Teddy would be the next coming of Andrew Luck or RGIII but I don't see it, I see a Geno Smith, maybe. Manziel is a closer comparison to RGIII. Very similar in there hype, production except RGIII has a good guy image and Manziel not so much.
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
I had a class with Manziel. Granted he only showed up on test days and finished before most folks but dude is broad for his size, fwiw.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
WTF are you even talking about.. IF you're talking about my first reply (which wasn't just "okay") The "okay" came from me not knowing WTF your point was or what the hell you were trying to say. I'm not on a "good fight".. buddy, I just didn't know what the hell you were talking about. which is why I tried to be polite and just write off the nonsense that you posted as some fortune cookie insert.
Let me take a guess here though... I'm dealing with another A&M fan ain't I? Go figure.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
Okay
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
So we have come full circle huh
Say Watt
Hall of Fame
Dude, you have made some okay arguments in this thread, but seriously? Those Michigan teams adopted the offense they did because of the horrific accuracy of Denard Robinson. No, the stats don't tell the whole story, but Manziel is a much better passer.
Robinson passed for an incredible 55% in his Junior year and 53% in his senior season. He also had a 29/24 TD/INT ratio in that same time span. In that same period, Manziel passed at a 68% and 69% clip with a 58/22 TD/INT ration. Once again, stats don't tell the whole story but when they aren't even in the same stratosphere, there is likely an error somewhere within your logic.
You can't compare a redshirt year going up against the practice squad to playing against Division I football teams every single week. It's a whole different environment and is nearly the equivalent of going from high school to college. Weak stuff man.
Just can't say I agree. RGIII had better poise in the pocket, but Manziel has some of the best instincts of any player you will ever see. RG3 might have marginally better arm strength, but Manziel can fling it. He throws the deep ball effortlessly and can hum it in there to the small space as well as anybody. His main drawbacks are a desire to break out of the pocket too much, which makes him sometimes look uncomfortable in the pocket, and poor decision making. He has a gunslinger mentality and as such, he makes quite a few mistakes.
When he goes against defenses that can take away his scrambling ability and can't get in a rhythm early, he can be exposed. We all watched some of that in the LSU game. The performance does not deserve any excuses, but he has been playing with a sore shoulder (hopefully rest is all he needs to recover) sustained in the Auburn game as well as a hurt throwing hand from hitting a lineman in the helmet in practice.
All the above said, this is why I wouldn't take Manziel in the top 20 of the NFL Draft. The struggles of RG3 are due in my opinion to Defensive Coordinators catching up with him as well as the speed of the NFL. Manziel's inability to handle the speed LSU has thrown at him this year and last year concern me.
Unless we get the first pick (and even then I would probably consider it), I'm with you. I'd love a deal with Cleveland for their first and second. Maybe, just maybe, Manziel falls to the second, and we could grab him there after picking a dominant OT in the first. I could easily get behind something like that.
I don't know man. I'm not a huge Bridgewater fan or anything, but I don't know how you could watch the Sugar Bowl last year and not be impressed. I'd agree with some other posters. I think you are holding the lack of talent he is playing against a little too much. He has proven he can play. He isn't Andrew Luck, but I don't think he is Geno Smith either. That's ALMOST the equivalent of Johnny Manziel to Denard Robinson...
Texian
Hall of Fame
For me, Geno Smith is meant as no disrespect. I watched Geno light it up numerous times. Geno was quite good and proficient at coming from behind and leading some GW drives. I don't think I will ever forget the Baylor game and he spanked Texas pretty good. Is Geno Andrew or RGIII? No! And neither is Teddy. I haven't seen Teddy do a lot of what Geno could do, but to be fair, Teddy didn't have Austin and Stedman. I do hope the Texans have the #1 pick and someone wants to pay a Washington ransom to move up to get him. Especially if Bortles declares for this draft.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Dude, you have made some okay arguments in this thread, but seriously? Those Michigan teams adopted the offense they did because of the horrific accuracy of Denard Robinson. No, the stats don't tell the whole story, but Manziel is a much better passer.
Robinson passed for an incredible 55% in his Junior year and 53% in his senior season. He also had a 29/24 TD/INT ratio in that same time span. In that same period, Manziel passed at a 68% and 69% clip with a 58/22 TD/INT ration. Once again, stats don't tell the whole story but when they aren't even in the same stratosphere, there is likely an error somewhere within your logic.
It was never my intention to compare their passing. Tex made a comment on how Manziel reminded him of Denard. Texian stated that if that was the case then he would have thrown for 4,000 yards and been a Heisman candidate. I was merely pointing out that he played in a run-first offense that was never going to throw for 4,000 yards and that he, in fact, was in the Heisman discussion.
Never compared their passing ability. It's pretty obvious to anyone who has seen the pair play that Manziel is the superior passer. Also, there's a reason why Denard is a RB in the NFL and not a QB.
You can't compare a redshirt year going up against the practice squad to playing against Division I football teams every single week. It's a whole different environment and is nearly the equivalent of going from high school to college. Weak stuff man.
Was only pointing out that both guys were first year starters in their second year. Denard was a backup his freshman year and really only came in to run the ball. Does he still have an advantage over a first year player? Yes. But I was just pointing out that despite the difference in class rank, both were second year players and first year starters.
Robinson passed for an incredible 55% in his Junior year and 53% in his senior season. He also had a 29/24 TD/INT ratio in that same time span. In that same period, Manziel passed at a 68% and 69% clip with a 58/22 TD/INT ration. Once again, stats don't tell the whole story but when they aren't even in the same stratosphere, there is likely an error somewhere within your logic.
It was never my intention to compare their passing. Tex made a comment on how Manziel reminded him of Denard. Texian stated that if that was the case then he would have thrown for 4,000 yards and been a Heisman candidate. I was merely pointing out that he played in a run-first offense that was never going to throw for 4,000 yards and that he, in fact, was in the Heisman discussion.
Never compared their passing ability. It's pretty obvious to anyone who has seen the pair play that Manziel is the superior passer. Also, there's a reason why Denard is a RB in the NFL and not a QB.
You can't compare a redshirt year going up against the practice squad to playing against Division I football teams every single week. It's a whole different environment and is nearly the equivalent of going from high school to college. Weak stuff man.
Was only pointing out that both guys were first year starters in their second year. Denard was a backup his freshman year and really only came in to run the ball. Does he still have an advantage over a first year player? Yes. But I was just pointing out that despite the difference in class rank, both were second year players and first year starters.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
he doesn't throw the deep ball effortlessly & he doesn't throw on a rope more than 15-20 yards effortlessly either..He has to load up to throw it deep (This kinda goes hand in hand with what Rey was talking about earlier in this thread when he said he looks like he aims the ball at times) and he torques off of his body way too hard on most of his throws on a rope rather than firmly planting & driving the ball in there with his arm...That front leg is locked out...Sometimes you get caught having to throw it like that, but when guys are doing it all the time like he does, It's a classic tell for when guys are overcompensating for height and or arm strength...in his case i think it's a little of both.
You didn't see the above with RG3 and you don't see it with any of the other prospects as much as you see it with him...b/c they have the arm strength & can use that alone to drive it in there if they have to.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Manziel does not "hum it" Denard Robinson (since he was brought up) showed more arm strength on his one pass against the Texans than Manziel ever has.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
Let me take a guess here though... I'm dealing with another A&M fan ain't I? Go figure.
I watch them from time to time but no more than any other program so you would be incorrect.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
lol, right..
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
Say Watt
Hall of Fame
Fair enough. Look, I enjoyed watching Denard Robinson as much as almost anybody. The guys was a blast to watch and was a threat to take it to the house at any moment. But Johnny Manziel is one of the greatest college QBs of all time. There simply is not much of an argument you can make against that. Sadly, he has been surrounded by one of the worst statistical defenses for a top 25 team in college football history.
I just don't think that is even a statement worth making. The difference between practice and game speed is night and day. I had forgotten Denard was a backup, so that does make the comparison a little more viable. Fact still remains you simply can't compare a redshirt year to an actual season in which you are going up against actual NCAA Div I talent in game speed. It's an entirely different world.
I just don't see it. I'd agree he has been torquing off his body since the Auburn game (and the shoulder injury) but early in the season, Johnny was launching the football. Like I have said before in this thread, stats don't tell the whole story, but Johnny is 4th in YPA surrounded by guys with "cannon" arms like Jameis Winston, Zach Mettenberger, and Marcus Marriota. I can't find the stat listed anywhere, but I'd also be willing to bet he is one of the leaders in pass plays of 20+ yds too.
His arm strength improved dramatically from last season to this season. Sadly, he injured his throwing shoulder and thus for a good portion of the season, he hasn't been throwing at full strength. Even still, arm strength is one of those traits that unless it is out of this world good or unbelievably bad it is extremely difficult to accurately judge. But all the noodle arm BS people like to throw out there is just asinine. Like I said before, he won't be mistaken for Elway or Jeff George, but he also isn't a weak armed QB like Matt Schaub or Chad Pennington.
I think everyone already knows what your "unbiased" opinion is on this matter.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
I am unbiased on this matter.. So I really don't know why you felt the need to put "unbiased" in quotes.. It's not like I don't want other A&M players, I'd be open to taking Mathews with the 1st pick. You're the one who is is "biased" here.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Fair enough. Look, I enjoyed watching Denard Robinson as much as almost anybody. The guys was a blast to watch and was a threat to take it to the house at any moment. But Johnny Manziel is one of the greatest college QBs of all time. There simply is not much of an argument you can make against that. Sadly, he has been surrounded by one of the worst statistical defenses for a top 25 team in college football history.
I've never said Manziel wasn't a fantastic college player. He absolutely is. I never made the Denard comparison and I don't really think it's a valid one. My only point in that post was to correct Texian on a few points on Robinson. It actually had little to do with Manziel to be honest.
Ironically though, on your point about Manziel and the A&M defense. Robinson had the worst defense in school history behind him in that sophomore campaign.
I just don't think that is even a statement worth making. The difference between practice and game speed is night and day. I had forgotten Denard was a backup, so that does make the comparison a little more viable. Fact still remains you simply can't compare a redshirt year to an actual season in which you are going up against actual NCAA Div I talent in game speed. It's an entirely different world.
Very true point. I was just trying to point out that Robinson was in his first year as a starter. Many people forget that he barely played as a freshman and that Tate Forcier was the starter all season.
I've never said Manziel wasn't a fantastic college player. He absolutely is. I never made the Denard comparison and I don't really think it's a valid one. My only point in that post was to correct Texian on a few points on Robinson. It actually had little to do with Manziel to be honest.
Ironically though, on your point about Manziel and the A&M defense. Robinson had the worst defense in school history behind him in that sophomore campaign.
I just don't think that is even a statement worth making. The difference between practice and game speed is night and day. I had forgotten Denard was a backup, so that does make the comparison a little more viable. Fact still remains you simply can't compare a redshirt year to an actual season in which you are going up against actual NCAA Div I talent in game speed. It's an entirely different world.
Very true point. I was just trying to point out that Robinson was in his first year as a starter. Many people forget that he barely played as a freshman and that Tate Forcier was the starter all season.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
You make a solid point about it being Manziel's 1st start and Bridgewater having 20+ under his belt at that point. Poor comparison by me. But you completely dodged the question and we both know it.
Bridgewater vs. #3 Florida with 20+ starts under his belt. He has Alex Kupper and Jamon Brown protecting him. Devante Parker is his #1 receiving option.
Manziel vs. #22 LSU with 20+ starts under his belt. He has Jake Matthews and Cedric Ogbuehi protecting him. Mike Evans is his #1 receiving option.
Who has the advantage?
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
He's been doing this all year...well before the auburn game and his hurt shoulder. go back & look at that bama game this year. nearly every throw he made in that game he was locking out that front leg and torquing hard.
he's 4th in YPA...he can thank Mike Evans for that.
it's cool, we can agree to disagree.
You mean the bama game where he threw for over 400 yards and put up over 40 points on one of the top defenses in the country?
Seriously it's all Evans?
Also you have said more than once that there are many scouts that point out his deficiencies and don't think his game will translate to the NFL who are these scouts you speak of? Links?
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I think JF's stock will suffer with RG3 not progressing . The bottom line is they employ folks to run the ball so the QB better be able to throw and throw on time with accuracy . RG3 better learn to stop taking hits or he might have two seasons left .
Stemp
Brew Master
Actually I think Wilson playing well offsets that. He's more like Wilson than RG3.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Get it right slick...i said:
"pro scouts are mixed on him as well for alot of the same reasons."
and ask and you shall recieve.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-draft-scout/23333219/analyzing-johnny-manziel-polarizing-nfl-scouts-too
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000224460/article/ask-5-does-johnny-manziels-game-translate-to-nfl-success
Even in the stories slanted towards him there is no universal agreement about him.
NFL rules prohibit team employees from talking about underclassmen before they declare for the draft, but seven scouts from various teams agreed to discuss Manziel anonymously. Four called him a first-round pick, with one believing he will go in the top 10.
I think Johnny Manziel is that good, the scout said. I think the guy is unique, and guys like Russell Wilson have paved the way for him.
Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/09/17/5171374/what-are-johnny-footballs-draft.html#storylink=cpy
That's a great story clearly in his favor, but you gotta wonder how those other 3 scouts they polled feel about him if they don't think he's a 1st round talent.
But this is nothing new for draft prospects.....qb's in particular. There are always going to be scouts who like guys and other scouts who don't......for whatever reason. Why try to act like this is all brand new & he's somehow immune to this?
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
You think the Redskins would like to go back and have all them picks back and Russell Wilson over RG3 . It's nothing against RG3 but he can never live up to the ransom the Skins paid for him .
If Wilson is good comparison for JF , teams will be shy to use a high #1 on him and he'll fall to a team that has a support system in place ... like Wilson .
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
that'd be the best thing for him honestly...
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Just curious if scouts already know what his actual height, weight, strength numbers will be pre-Combine?
Anyone here dare guess?
I've guessed 5'11 185-195 before. I'll stick with that. No idea about strength numbers. Is say he runs a 4.55 maybe closer to 4.6.
Texian
Hall of Fame
just curious if scouts already know what his actual height, weight, strength numbers will be pre-combine?
Anyone here dare guess?
5112, 210, 4.45
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
I don't watch college football I just read and hear about it, but does Manziel and the hype around him have a touch of the Tebows to it?
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Vince Tebow :vincepalm:
Actually I think JF is a much better passer than the other two . I wouldn't even consider drafting a QB high that threw chicken winged . Tebow ... I think is to ripped for his own good . He looks stiff and slow throwing .
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
Except he's the Anti-Tebow. He associates with people and goes places and does things that Tebow has nightmares about.
So far, Manziel doesn't have the level of hype Tebow had because he doesn't have the body of work that Tebow had.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Holy crap ... a new reality show ... Heisman Brothers . JF and Tim living it up in Los Angeles .
Texian
Hall of Fame
I have already answered this once. My original answer hasn't change. There has been no dodge ball. you asked a question, you didn't like the answer, albeit it was the correct answer. It has nothing to do with OL an everything to do with his 1st start. No making up the rules as you go along. Why don't you just ask who has better Oline? It's not so much that you've a bias towards Bridgewater as much as you have a bias against Manziel. You clearly illustrate this point with each post you make in this thread.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Just curious if scouts already know what his actual height, weight, strength numbers will be pre-Combine?
Anyone here dare guess?
Most schools are notorious for overlisting guys on measureables. Last I looked A&M had Manziel listed at 6'1, 210 lbs. I'd say he's closer to 5'11, 190. Won't go into detail on his strength numbers because nobody knows what's going on in that weight room so it's pointless to speculate.
As for his forty, I'd peg him for a mid-to-low 4.5 guy. He doesn't have the top end speed of a guy like Griffin or Denard Robinson, who both ran 4.4's. I'd say his athleticism compares more favorably to a guy like Russell Wilson, who ran a 4.55.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
I don't think there is any comparison between Manziel and Tebow unless you're talking system Quarterbacks and even then I don't think that's very valid. Scouts are torn on Manziel. They weren't torn on Tebow. Nobody thought he would be a successful NFL QB.
As for Vince and Manziel. I think they do compare favorably in that both of their games are predicated on their improvisational skills. Vince relied on those skills a lot in college and it hurt him in the NFL when he couldn't get away with it anymore. It's up for debate whether that will be the case with Manziel. I do think Vince has a stronger arm than Manziel, but that doesn't mean much if you don't know how to use it.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
I'm as biased against him as you are biased for him. That much has been clearly proven by both of us in this thread. I'm never going to agree with you and you're never going to agree with me. Let's just leave it at that and move on.
Say Watt
Hall of Fame
Good post man. I agree completely. Vince just didn't have the smarts to truly understand the pro game nor the accuracy to survive. Manziel is already a much better passer and has as good, and arguably better, improvisational skills as Vince. That said, players like Manziel, Russell Wilson, Vince Young, RG3, and even Kaepernick are project players. NFL GMs were smart to not take Wilson or Kaepernick until the 2-3 rounds, because the fact is you really don't know how any of those type of players will turn out in the NFL.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I disagree with VY relying on improvisation in college. I watched a lot of UT football when VY was there. I didn't miss a game his last year I don't think....
VY had some nice talent around him. Ramonce Taylor, Jamal Charles, I think the TE's name was Harris...white guy...he was a baller...they had some good receivers too.
They really just shredded teams. I don't remember VY back there running all over the place and doing the things JM does. It was more make a simple read and go.
Honestly, I mainly recall VY and the Texas offense killing people within the framework of called plays most times.
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^^^^
This
He will kill the 3-cone/short shuttle though. Better than most WR/RB's.
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
bah007
Hall of Fame
You're on target here. TE was David Thomas. Insanely good college TE.
Texas had otherworldly NFL talent on that 2005 squad. VY mainly played within the offense because he didn't need to do much else. That Texas offense is really the reason the Zone Read exploded the way that it did. Put your best athlete at QB and give him three options, Give, Pass to #1, or Run. Incredibly simple but effective. Obviously it has become more diverse since then, but the simplicity of that offense is one of the reasons I think Young had trouble adapting to a NFL system.
To Wolverine's point, VY did plenty of improvisation in that Rose Bowl against Michigan. He killed that defense on broken plays.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
I hope JFF draft fans watched the last two games. He's an elite scrambler, and that's about it. He doesn't make decisions fast enough to compete at the NFL level, he hangs on to the ball waaaaaaaaaaay too long most of the time. Evans couldn't bail him out, so they lose, again. As an Aggie fan, I hope he drafts. We need someone new at the helm.
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