Kareem Jackson's plight.

[76Texan]

Because of the route than was ran. And how the play played out. You can pretty much use process of elimination. Also there's a quote in the Chronicle where Jason Allen and Vance Joseph were talking about how they were expecting and preparing for the back shoulder fade, and he benefited from his work in practice. But its pretty clear of what Gabbert was trying to do even without seeing those quotes. It just looked like it was poorly executed.

What other route did you think it could be? The only other routes it possibly could be is a deep curl or comeback, but it would have still been a poorly thrown ball.

I agree; the only attempt a QB can make here is a back shoulder fade.
With safety over the top and the CB running with the receiver (instead of playing underneath at the start), the QB cannot risk a throw over the top for fear of the safety.
A pass to the inside (unitended in this case) is there for the CB to play when he knows he has help over the top.
The only attempt a QB can make is going to the outside on a back shoulder fade.
As is, it was a terrible throw by Gabbert.

He shouldn't even make the throw in the first place.

If you rewatch the play, the Jags had two receiving threats on their left (Allen's side) and thee on the other side.

The Texans rushed four (evenly with two rushers on each side.)

We dropped four (Allen, Nolan, Quin, and Cushing) on Allen's side to defend two (MSW and MJD) (even though Cushing can also help on the TE .)

We dropped only three to defend three on the other side.

This is an example of what I've been saying.
The Texans roll help over to Allen's side quite a bit more (baby-sitting).
With Joseph and Jackson, they were treated more or less evenly, there was no discernible trend with those two in coverage.

 

[Texn4life]

Back shoulder throw isn't a type of route.

I'm not arguing the poorly thrown ball and remember how this conversation started. I repsonded to TK saying that the pass didn't appear to be a back shoulder throw and it looks like it was thrown to the inside (which is not where a back shoulder throw should be).

You then responded basically saying it was obviously a poorly thrown back shoulder pass...That's a possibility. But what I'm saying and have been trying to say, and what you basically said above is: There could be other possibilities

A fade is a route..... so therefore back shoulder fade is a route. I'm really not trying to debate you on this. I put the quote there for you to see and if Jason Allen and Vance Joseph both agree that's what they were trying to run there then I would think that should be the end of it. The reason I said it was process of elimination is because at no point did he attempt to try to plant and come back to the ball. That would happen on a comeback/5 route or a curl/4 route. He ran down the field while turning to the inside to look for the ball, and instead of the ball being thrown on the outside, it was thrown on the inside pretty much taking him out of the play. The trajectory of the pass also hinted at what Gabbert was intending to do with the pass.

 

[76Texan]

55 + 50 = 105....... hmmm. Kubiak also said it's probably even, because Kj was out with an injury for 2 games. So that means Kj has been playing significantly more snaps.

Here's the count for this game:

The Jags had 57 plays (32 passes and 25 runs) in 13 series, not counting the kneel down by Gabbert to end the half and those downs with false start or offside penalties.


Allen played the 3rd and 4th series of each half (a total of four series and 15 plays.)
Jackson played in 9 series (42 plays).

Like TK said, he didn't show up much because he had the receiver covered pretty decent to very good.
Again, like TK said, this is what I watch as much as the TV screen allows: How each CB do on their receiver on every snap.

 

[Rey]

A fade is a route..... so therefore back shoulder fade is a route.

No...

A fade route is not necessarily thrown to the back shoulder. In fact I'd say most fade routes are thrown near the EZ and are typically jump balls...Not back shoulder throws.

Once again...Go back and read how this convo got started. You quoted me and I responded. I didn't say you were trying to debate or argue.

 

[Texn4life]

No...

A fade route is not necessarily thrown to the back shoulder. In fact I'd say most fade routes are thrown near the EZ and are typically jump balls...Not back shoulder throws.

Once again...Go back and read how this convo got started. You quoted me and I responded. I didn't say you were trying to debate or argue.

If I would've known that it would've dragged me into this then I would've never commented on it. I'll post a link for you to check out an outside view. Trust me, there is a difference between a standard fade route and a back shoulder fade. Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers could definitely tell you that. Here's the link though that kind of talks about it. I respect your opinion because I've seen your posts so I know you know what you're talking about, but this is one we'll just have to disagree on.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/How-do-you-stop-the-back-shoulder-fade.html

 

[Rey]

If I would've known that it would've dragged me into this then I would've never commented on it. I'll post a link for you to check out an outside view. Trust me, there is a difference between a standard fade route and a back shoulder fade. Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers could definitely tell you that. Here's the link though that kind of talks about it. I respect your opinion because I've seen your posts so I know you know what you're talking about, but this is one we'll just have to disagree on.

Yes we can agree to disagree on it. No bigggie.

 

[thunderkyss]

Because of the route than was ran. And how the play played out. You can pretty much use process of elimination. Also there's a quote in the Chronicle where Jason Allen and Vance Joseph were talking about how they were expecting and preparing for the back shoulder fade, and he benefited from his work in practice. But its pretty clear of what Gabbert was trying to do even without seeing those quotes. It just looked like it was poorly executed.

What other route did you think it could be? The only other routes it possibly could be is a deep curl or comeback, but it would have still been a poorly thrown ball.

I asked the question, because there is no way anyone could think that was a back shoulder pass.... or even a poorly thrown back shoulder pass.

Had it been, it would have been behind the receiver one way or another. That picture shows the receiver running a 9 & Allen standing in front of him.

If you go back & watch the highlights, you'll see Allen is beaten on that play. He bites an inside fake by the receiver & he's way inside before the ball is thrown. He may even stumble a little bit.

Gabbert may have thought Allen fell down, or at the very least wouldn't be able to recover in time. But Allen does a good job with his make up speed to get in front of the receiver. By then it's too late for Gabbert to "stop" the throw.

It was a good play by Allen (even though he was initially beat), where his athleticism saved him. I don't know why he would have called it a back shoulder when he clearly made the decision to get in front of that receiver.

Edit I'm going off memory, but here is a video of the play tell me what you think. I can't watch their videos at work for some reason..... the freak'n adds come through no problem, but not the actual highlights.

 

[HTown2ATX]

KJ and I think GQ or another DB will be the Texans player guests for the weekly Texans appearences this Tuesday for 610am with Vandy and Lopez at whatever Verizon location they are doing this week.

I'm honestly curious how that will go over. I would hope he can make it through an appearence without being publicly humiliated but he is the focal point of a lot of negativity so I just wonder A) if that was a smart move by whoever sets that up and B) how it will go.

There were already people on 610 saying they want to bring pieces of burnt toast and ask him to sign it.

:wadepalm:

 

[foo82]

38 pages to try and argue an inarguable point. Jeez.

Nothing said here changes the fact that KJ is not a good cornerback, and isn't even the 2nd best CB on a team full of crappy CBs.

number 1 in limiting opposing completions rate in the NFL. If our CBs were so bad, I couldn't imagine what it would look like if they were decent.

 

[Texn4life]

I asked the question, because there is no way anyone could think that was a back shoulder pass.... or even a poorly thrown back shoulder pass.

Had it been, it would have been behind the receiver one way or another. That picture shows the receiver running a 9 & Allen standing in front of him.

If you go back & watch the highlights, you'll see Allen is beaten on that play. He bites an inside fake by the receiver & he's way inside before the ball is thrown. He may even stumble a little bit.

Gabbert may have thought Allen fell down, or at the very least wouldn't be able to recover in time. But Allen does a good job with his make up speed to get in front of the receiver. By then it's too late for Gabbert to "stop" the throw.

It was a good play by Allen (even though he was initially beat), where his athleticism saved him. I don't know why he would have called it a back shoulder when he clearly made the decision to get in front of that receiver.

Edit I'm going off memory, but here is a video of the play tell me what you think. I can't watch their videos at work for some reason..... the freak'n adds come through no problem, but not the actual highlights.

I've seen the play already probably about 10 times and I've already broken down my reasoning behind why I think that. I'm not about to continue to explain myself, but like I said both Jason Allen and Vance Joseph agreed that it was a back shoulder fade so its good enough for me to be thoroughly convinced. If its not for you then I understand, but its really not that serious for me to keep going on and on about it. I just watched it a few more times, and you can clearly see the receiver get his head around and start to try to turn in anticipation for a throw towards the sideline before he realizes Gabbert delivered a poorly thrown pass. To me, its not even that complicated, so its the last I'll be commenting on this.

 

[silvrhand]

Does that look like a back-shoulder-throw to anyone?

Not really.. it looks like a bad throw

 

[thunderkyss]

I've seen the play already probably about 10 times and I've already broken down my reasoning behind why I think that. I'm not about to continue to explain myself, but like I said both Jason Allen and Vance Joseph agreed that it was a back shoulder fade so its good enough for me to be thoroughly convinced.

Let's try it this way.

Can you identify the receiver's back shoulder?

Not really.. it looks like a bad throw

Thank you. Now, if that is how Vance Joseph is teaching our DBs to defend the back-shoulder-pass, how do you think he's doing?

 

[Texn4life]

Let's try it this way.

Can you identify the receiver's back shoulder?

Thank you. Now, if that is how Vance Joseph is teaching our DBs to defend the back-shoulder-pass, how do you think he's doing?

How many times can I say it was a poorly thrown back shoulder fade attempt? I think you're giving Blaine Gabbert a little too much credit in that the pass was too far to the inside. The guy's accuracy rate is less than 50 percent on the season. You're also showing a picture to justify your argument. Break down the film and you'll see what was happening. If not then please give another route that it was supposed to be. There isn't a reasonable alternative. It's not like he's been putting balls in the right spot. If professionals think that that's what was happening then I'm not even sure why we're still discussing this. Just watch the receiver running down the field.

 

[thunderkyss]

I'll leave it to the rest of you though.

I thought we already crossed that bridge.

I'm not about to continue to explain myself...

Yet here we are.....

I'm not about to continue to explain myself..., but like I said both Jason Allen and Vance Joseph agreed that it was a back shoulder fade so its good enough for me to be thoroughly convinced.

This is the real crux of my inquiry. If Allen identified it as a back shoulder "route" & Van Joseph agreed... What does that say about Allen & Joseph if he is standing on top of the receiver?

 

[Texn4life]

I thought we already crossed that bridge.



Yet here we are.....



This is the real crux of my inquiry. If Allen identified it as a back shoulder "route" & Van Joseph agreed... What does that say about Allen & Joseph if he is standing on top of the receiver?

That Allen had his head around looking for the ball and made a play on it. If it was a good pass then there is probably no chance that he intercepts the pass.
:wadepalm:

 

[Rey]

I haven't read the article so I don't know for sure that vj and Allen called it a backshoulder throw.

If they did, I think they are wrong. But really gabbert and the jags would be whose word I'd take as gospel. Vj and Allen dont know for sure what the jags were trying to accomplish or what was called.

The ball was thrown high and inside.

If gabbert was trying to throw a back shoulder pass he should not be an NFL qb.

I think he just threw the ball to the receiver. Maybe he thought the wr was looking inside, but I just don't see any sign that was a back shoulder pass gone extremely awry.

 

[thunderkyss]

If they did, I think they are wrong. But really gabbert and the jags would be whose word I'd take as gospel. Vj and Allen dont know for sure what the jags were trying to accomplish or what was called.

Actually, Jason Allen calls it a back shoulder pass.... Vance Joseph isn't credited with a comment on the play.

But then Allen explained the play happened on a back-shoulder fade, the same throw/route on which he had been beaten a couple of times earlier in the season.

"Me and coach VJ, we've been working on that," Allen said.

I don't know why anyone would think that was supposed to be a back-shoulder-throw either.

Here's the NFL highlight... keep watching & you'll here someone commenting on the play.. he says that Allen has safety help over the top (76Texan said the same thing). But you see Nolan backpedaling, straight back.

Maybe he is waiting to see if one of the receivers on Quin's side runs a post.... I don't know. But if I'm Gabbert & I see Nolan dropping straight back & Allen beat at the line, I'm throwing the ball over the top, a lot more arm & a little more air & letting the receiver run up underneath it.

As it was, he threw the ball short (maybe he was too excited, look at his feet, looks like his toe never turns, he never opens his hips towards the throw & it looks like he's throwing against his body) & to the inside, where Allen was able to make a play on the ball.

A back-shoulder-throw, or a ball placed over the top & Allen has no play on the ball. Gabbert put it in the one place he shouldn't have.

 

[Rey]

Actually, Jason Allen calls it a back shoulder pass.... Vance Joseph isn't credited with a comment on the play.

​

Well if Allen keeps playing back shoulder throws like that I expect him to continue to get beat. . .well, beat when he plays a qb that can halfway throw one.

 

[thunderkyss]

Well if Allen keeps playing back shoulder throws like that I expect him to continue to get beat. . .well, beat when he plays a qb that can halfway throw one.

That was one of the points I was trying to make. If we ever play a decent QB with Allen playing significant minutes, people will fall in love with Kj.

I also added to my post, after you responded to it

I don't know why anyone would think that was supposed to be a back-shoulder-throw either.

Here's the NFL highlight... keep watching & you'll here someone commenting on the play.. he says that Allen has safety help over the top (76Texan said the same thing). But you see Nolan backpedaling, straight back.

Maybe he is waiting to see if one of the receivers on Quin's side runs a post.... I don't know. But if I'm Gabbert & I see Nolan dropping straight back & Allen beat at the line, I'm throwing the ball over the top, a lot more arm & a little more air & letting the receiver run up underneath it.

As it was, he threw the ball short (maybe he was too excited, look at his feet, looks like his toe never turns, he never opens his hips towards the throw & it looks like he's throwing against his body) & to the inside, where Allen was able to make a play on the ball.

A back-shoulder-throw, or a ball placed over the top & Allen has no play on the ball. Gabbert put it in the one place he shouldn't have.

 

[Texn4life]

Here's a link to a site where a user comments on what Blaine SAID he was trying to do on that play. I'll see if I can find the interview where he actually says it.

If you saw Gabbert's interview after the game you'd realize that while it was a bad throw it wasn't a bad decision to throw the ball on the int play. He was going for the back shoulder throw and just threw it terribly lol...He said it wasn't the decision TO throw it just has to be a better ball (outside/behind the receiver).

http://www.jaguarsblog.com/jaguars-vs-texans-game-recap-offensive-offense/

 

[Texn4life]

I'll continue to search for a video, but now that a fan said he saw the interview and has no invested interest in this discussion can we please this to bed?

 

[Rey]

I'll continue to search for a video, but now that a fan said he saw the interview and has no invested interest in this discussion can we please this to bed?

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2011/10/30/blaine-gabbert-we-expect-to-come-in-here-and-succeed/

I didn't hear gabbert say he was trying a backshoulder throw. I heard him say something about "to the left" or something like that.

But in the quote you posted from the fan he's prettymuch giving an opinion like us.

And my position is not that he wasn't trying to go back shoulder. I'm saying that other than hearing him say it we don't really 'know'.

 

[Texn4life]

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2011/10/30/blaine-gabbert-we-expect-to-come-in-here-and-succeed/

I didn't hear gabbert say he was trying a backshoulder throw. I heard him say something about "to the left" or something like that.

But in the quote you posted from the fan he's prettymuch giving an opinion like us.

Lol, if he's trying to throw it to the left then where do you think he's trying to put the ball? Towards the sideline right? Which would be where? On his back shoulder right? I swear some people just can't admit when they're wrong. Its ridiculous. I haven't even heard the interview, but you guys are beating a dead horse. Its actually getting funny now. Neither of you still can tell me what he was trying to do with that throw if he wasn't trying to throw a back shoulder fade.

I listened to it and he clearly said "the throw needed to be 6 inches to the left"..... Not I need to put more air under the ball. Just because he didn't say he was trying to throw a back shoulder fade doesn't mean someone with basic football knowledge can't determine what he was trying to do. If I say my stomach hurts, and I need to use the restroom I'm pretty sure you can make the assumption I have to take a dump. Its not that freakin difficult. Geez Louise!!!

 

[Rey]

Lol, if he's trying to throw it to the left then where do you think he's trying to put the ball? Towards the sideline right? Which would be where? On his back shoulder right? I swear some people just can't admit when they're wrong. Its ridiculous. I haven't even heard the interview, but you guys are beating a dead horse. Its actually getting funny now. Neither of you still can tell me what he was trying to do with that throw if he wasn't trying to throw a back shoulder fade.

It's call a disagreement. Pretty sure you are not new to them. All you have to do is stop responding to end it. I find it interesting, but the minute I don't I won't respond.

Also, I don't remember stating a position here other than you can't be 100% sure. Actually I even said it could have been a backshoulder throw.

You are reading into the quotes what you want to read.

Six inches to the left just means away from Allen who is on the inside. There are sideline routes that aren't back shoulder throws ya know. . .

Of course he wanted to throw the ball to the left more. That's where his receiver was.

Doesn't mean he was trying to go back shoulder.

 

[Texn4life]

It's call a disagreement. Pretty sure you are not new to them. All you have to do is stop responding to end it. I find it interesting, but the minute I don't I won't respond.

You are reading intoning quotes what you want to read.

Six inches to the left just means away from Allen who is on the inside. There are sideline routes that aren't back shoulder throws ya know. . .

Of course he wanted to throw the ball to the left more. That's where his receiver was.

Doesn't mean he was trying to go back shoulder.

This is like debating with a second grader who just can't admit that maybe he's mistaken. Are there routes that aren't back shoulder throws? Absolutely..... Was the receiver running one? Absolutely not..... The receiver was running down the field and in no way intended to run another sideline route.

:wadepalm:

 

[Texn4life]

I tell you what though...... I'm friends with a guy who played with Gabbert at Missouri and they still talk regularly. I'll get him to ask him what his intentions were on that play. Will that make you happy? I'm sure if he says that's what he was trying to do you'll still find a way to try to spin it.

 

[thunderkyss]

But if I'm Gabbert & I see Nolan dropping straight back & Allen beat at the line, I'm throwing the ball over the top, a lot more arm & a little more air & letting the receiver run up underneath it.

As it was, he threw the ball short (maybe he was too excited, look at his feet, looks like his toe never turns, he never opens his hips towards the throw & it looks like he's throwing against his body) & to the inside, where Allen was able to make a play on the ball.

A back-shoulder-throw, or a ball placed over the top & Allen has no play on the ball. Gabbert put it in the one place he shouldn't have.

This is me saying what I think he is trying to do & giving my thoughts on why the ball ended up where it did. His mechanics are screwed up. Even if he wanted the ball to be six inches to the left, he needs to reset that front foot at least 6 inches to the left, there is no way the ball is getting to the back-shoulder with him twisted up the way he is.

I also say here that a back-shoulder throw is one of the passes that would make sense here. But the only way I would be convinced that it's supposed to be back-shoulder is if the receiver had turned to his left, which he never does.

With a back-shoulder throw, you don't turn to the right, look for the ball then turn left. You turn left, period. There's no way he'd have been all over Allen had he thought it was supposed to be back-shoulder. He would have turned to his left, Allen would have been by himself.

Here's the video(Click on "Gabberts second interception"), tell me at what time does he turn left expecting the ball.

This is a screen-shot where he is looking for the ball, to his right, he's got Allen beat, he's expecting the ball, he looks inside, to his right.

Like I said though, you're missing the point. I don't care what the pass was supposed to be. The point is that Allen said it was supposed to be a back-shoulder throw..... Gabbert says it's supposed to be a back-shoulder throw.

If you want to defend the back-shoulder throw, where would you be as a DB? You cannot defend back-shoulder if you are on top to the inside.

So people are wondering why Kjac gets more playing time than Allen, this is my response to that. It worked out, Allen got an interception, but just like his other two, it is because the QB throws a bad ball.

Allen is beat on this play at the LOS. If it's a well thrown back-shoulder pass, he is in no position to make a play. If it's a well thrown 9, he is in no position to make a play.

Look at Jjo at the top, that's not a back shoulder, but it shows a receiver stopping & turning expecting the ball. Look at where Jjo is, that's as good as it gets trying to defend that type of route, that's a small gap between him & the receiver... the DB has no idea what route the receiver is running, which makes a quick stop or comeback like a back-shoulder impossible to defend when you're manned up.

So fine....... let's say I'm wrong. I'm wrong. It's a back-shoulder throw. Allen is expecting a back shoulder throw, why is he not on the receiver's back shoulder?

 

[Texn4life]

This is me saying what I think he is trying to do & giving my thoughts on why the ball ended up where it did. His mechanics are screwed up. Even if he wanted the ball to be six inches to the left, he needs to reset that front foot at least 6 inches to the left, there is no way the ball is getting to the back-shoulder with him twisted up the way he is.

I also say here that a back-shoulder throw is one of the passes that would make sense here. But the only way I would be convinced that it's supposed to be back-shoulder is if the receiver had turned to his left, which he never does.

With a back-shoulder throw, you don't turn to the right, look for the ball then turn left. You turn left, period. There's no way he'd have been all over Allen had he thought it was supposed to be back-shoulder. He would have turned to his left, Allen would have been by himself.

Here's the video(Click on "Gabberts second interception"), tell me at what time does he turn left expecting the ball.

This is a screen-shot where he is looking for the ball, to his right, he's got Allen beat, he's expecting the ball, he looks inside, to his right.

Like I said though, you're missing the point. I don't care what the pass was supposed to be. The point is that Allen said it was supposed to be a back-shoulder throw..... Gabbert says it's supposed to be a back-shoulder throw.

If you want to defend the back-shoulder throw, where would you be as a DB? You cannot defend back-shoulder if you are on top to the inside.

So people are wondering why Kjac gets more playing time than Allen, this is my response to that. It worked out, Allen got an interception, but just like his other two, it is because the QB throws a bad ball.

Allen is beat on this play at the LOS. If it's a well thrown back-shoulder pass, he is in no position to make a play. If it's a well thrown 9, he is in no position to make a play.

Look at Jjo at the top, that's not a back shoulder, but it shows a receiver stopping & turning expecting the ball. Look at where Jjo is, that's as good as it gets trying to defend that type of route, that's a small gap between him & the receiver... the DB has no idea what route the receiver is running, which makes a quick stop or comeback like a back-shoulder impossible to defend when you're manned up.

So fine....... let's say I'm wrong. I'm wrong. It's a back-shoulder throw. Allen is expecting a back shoulder throw, why is he not on the receiver's back shoulder?

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up where Allen was position wise related to the receiver. All I've ever said during all of this non-sense is that it was a poorly executed back shoulder fade..... AGAIN IT WAS A POORLY THROWN BACK SHOULDER FADE ATTEMPT. Watch this you tube clip that explains more about it. The first throw from Rodgers to Jennings is exactly what he was attempting to pull off. Of course the receiver is going to turn inside for the ball initially. A well thrown ball is going to turn him him towards the sideline. He's expecting for the ball to be delivered towards the outside, which is why Gabbert said the ball need to be more to the left and its a good pass. It wasn't..... and the ball was intercepted. Again, I've already text a friend of mine to ask him what he was trying to do. I'll see if he responds back to it. But the fact you're now trying to get me to explain what Allen was doing on the play is a little silly. All I've said is that it was poorly executed back shoulder fade attempt. That's it. In that screenshot it also shows Allen running even with him. I have no idea how you consider that beat from the receiver's perspective. He and Allen are both at the 29 yard line. He doesn't even have a step on Allen at this point in the play.

You keep bringing up all this stuff about the defense and how they're defending it. I'm not in this whole Allen and K-Jac debate, so I'm not going to talk about how he defended it. I said it was a poorly thrown ball, back it up with Gabbert's quotes and now you're talking about other things that we weren't even discussing initially. Its almost like you finally admitting that that its raining outside, but then saying "Well so what, its not gonna rain all day." Its getting a tad childish now.

:wadepalm:


http://youtu.be/NAVmFlp0fTE

 

[thunderkyss]

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up where Allen was position wise related to the receiver. All I've ever said during all of this non-sense is that it was a poorly executed back shoulder fade..... AGAIN IT WAS A POORLY THROWN BACK SHOULDER FADE ATTEMPT.

Because that is what this thread is about, it's not about QBs, it's about CBs..... the point I an trying to make is that Allen "recognized" it as a back-shoulder fade (which is impossible to do, the QB decides to throw back shoulder after determining how the CB plays the receiver) but doesn't play it as if he is expecting a back-shoulder pass.

Watch this you tube clip that explains more about it. The first throw from Rodgers to Jennings is exactly what he was attempting to pull off. Of course the receiver is going to turn inside for the ball initially.

I'll admit, that's not what I was thinking when they were talking about back shoulder "routes" When the QB & receiver are thinking back shoulder from the get go, I'm expecting a timing route & the receiver to turn outside.

For this one, yeah, I see what they are doing, yes if Gabbert threw it behind the receiver... poorly thrown ball, no doubt about it.

But the fact you're now trying to get me to explain what Allen was doing on the play is a little silly. All I've said is that it was poorly executed back shoulder fade attempt. That's it.

& I've been trying to say from the get go, what Gabbert was trying to do is irrelevant, My point for posting the picture is about Allen's recognition (he thought it was supposed to be a back-shoulder pass) & how he responded (he's playing on top & to the inside)

This is why (I think) he doesn't get as much playing time as Kj

In that screenshot it also shows Allen running even with him. I have no idea how you consider that beat from the receiver's perspective. He and Allen are both at the 29 yard line. He doesn't even have a step on Allen at this point in the play.

Watch the video, the receiver's initial move is to the inside then the receiver releases outside.

His help is inside. A more physical corner in press coverage would not allow the outside route, he would have allowed the receiver to go inside & fought him in the first 5 yards to prevent an outside release.

Allen is beat.

Then running down the field, Allen is playing inside, still plenty of room to the sideline. If Gabbert throws that ball over the top, towards the sideline, that's a big play, Nolan is too far away.

You keep bringing up all this stuff about the defense and how they're defending it. I'm not in this whole Allen and K-Jac debate, so I'm not going to talk about how he defended it.

That's what this whole thread has been about.

I said it was a poorly thrown ball, back it up with Gabbert's quotes and now you're talking about other things that we weren't even discussing initially. Its almost like you finally admitting that that its raining outside, but then saying "Well so what, its not rain all day." Its getting a tad childish now.

:wadepalm:


http://youtu.be/NAVmFlp0fTE

I tried to cut it off earlier......

Well if Allen keeps playing back shoulder throws like that I expect him to continue to get beat. . .well, beat when he plays a qb that can halfway throw one.

That was one of the points I was trying to make. If we ever play a decent QB with Allen playing significant minutes, people will fall in love with Kj.

Keep in mind, this is the Kj's plight thread. Most of the opinions expressed in this thread are "Kj sucks" & "Kj doesn't suck that bad"

 

[Texn4life]

With a back-shoulder throw, you don't turn to the right, look for the ball then turn left. You turn left, period. There's no way he'd have been all over Allen had he thought it was supposed to be back-shoulder. He would have turned to his left, Allen would have been by himself.

This quote right here doesn't even make sense. Of course you turn right to look for the ball, and then the ball is thrown towards the outside causing the receiver and his body to turn towards the sideline. Show me one clip ever where the receiver opens up towards the sideline looking for the ball on a back shoulder fade. You won't because that's not the technique that a receiver uses on that play. But whatever makes you feel better.

:kubepalm:

 

[thunderkyss]

This quote right here doesn't even make sense. Of course you turn right to look for the ball, and then the ball is thrown towards the outside causing the receiver and his body to turn towards the sideline. Show me one clip ever where the receiver opens up towards the sideline looking for the ball on a back shoulder fade. You won't because that's not the technique that a receiver uses on that play. But whatever makes you feel better.

:kubepalm:

You're right, what I was calling a back shoulder route is obviously not what is commonly understood as a back shoulder pass.

 

[Texn4life]

You're right, what I was calling a back shoulder route is obviously not what is commonly understood as a back shoulder pass.

Good deal..... Now you can go back to talking about how much K-Jac sucks.

Since this is a thread about him, I will say that I like the idea of him and Allen splitting time. To me, its healthy competition and it keeps both of the fighting every play. Neither of them has time to get complacent because they're battling for playing time.

 

[76Texan]

[/IMG]

I agree; the only attempt a QB can make here is a back shoulder fade.
With safety over the top and the CB running with the receiver (instead of playing underneath at the start), the QB cannot risk a throw over the top for fear of the safety.
A pass to the inside (unitended in this case) is there for the CB to play when he knows he has help over the top.
The only attempt a QB can make is going to the outside on a back shoulder fade.
As is, it was a terrible throw by Gabbert.

He shouldn't even make the throw in the first place.

If you rewatch the play, the Jags had two receiving threats on their left (Allen's side) and three on the other side.

The Texans rushed four (evenly with two rushers on each side.)

We dropped four (Allen, Nolan, Quin, and Cushing) on Allen's side to defend two (MSW and MJD) (even though Cushing can also help on the TE .)

We dropped only three to defend three on the other side.

This is an example of what I've been saying.
The Texans roll help over to Allen's side quite a bit more (baby-sitting).
With Joseph and Jackson, they were treated more or less evenly, there was no discernible trend with those two in coverage.

This is what I was saying when I agreed with T4L that it was a poor attempt of a back shoulder fade.

Also, we all agreed that even if it was a comeback or hook/curl type (I would add the stop route), it was still a poor throw.
On these routes, the receiver/QB should convert into a fade route anyway when they see cover 2 (for a better result), with the room the receiver had on the side line, no matter how little it is.

I must say, however, that the receiver didn't help Gabbert by not leaning in toward the CB earlier.
(I watched the Cards/Ravens game last night when Fitzgerald ran a couple fade routes and former coach Brian Billick talked about the lean such that the receiver/QB can have more room along the side line).

 

[76Texan]

http://youtu.be/NAVmFlp0fTE

That's a good video there.

I found this piece if anybody is interested; it gives some more perspective on the fade route:

http://smartfootball.com/passing/running-and-throwing-the-fade-route-against-press-coverage

 

[Texn4life]

That's a good video there.

I found this piece if anybody is interested; it gives some more perspective on the fade route:

http://smartfootball.com/passing/running-and-throwing-the-fade-route-against-press-coverage

That's a good video as well. If he puts the ball where he's supposed to then it's a completion. He could have also opted to put some air under the ball and let his receiver run into it since it looks like they were in a Quarters coverage with both CB's pressing at the line of scrimmage. So he had room and space to the sideline to use either throw to and it was no way the safety was going to get there in time. He chose the route of putting it on the receiver and trying to throw a back shoulder fade and it backfired with him putting it too far on the inside. It was a great idea with poor execution.

 

[dalemurphy]

I don't usually embrace playing the role of the simpleton: That being said, if we are at a point in the secondary where we are complaining about our 2nd or 3rd best CB blanketing a WR 25 yards downfield, intercepting the ball, but doing so while being glued to the receivers inside shoulder instead of outside shoulder.... we have come a long, long, long way on defense!!

 

[Texn4life]

I don't usually embrace playing the role of the simpleton: That being said, if we are at a point in the secondary where we are complaining about our 2nd or 3rd best CB blanketing a WR 25 yards downfield, intercepting the ball, but doing so while being glued to the receivers inside shoulder instead of outside shoulder.... we have come a long, long, long way on defense!!

I agree.... Its been rare this year to see receivers running free with a lot of space this year. We've turned our biggest weakness into a strength. Not bad for a defense in its first year of a new system with 2 supposed scrubs splitting time at the CB2 position.

 

[76Texan]

That's a good video as well. If he puts the ball where he's supposed to then it's a completion. He could have also opted to put some air under the ball and let his receiver run into it since it looks like they were in a Quarters coverage with both CB's pressing at the line of scrimmage. So he had room and space to the sideline to use either throw to and it was no way the safety was going to get there in time. He chose the route of putting it on the receiver and trying to throw a back shoulder fade and it backfired with him putting it too far on the inside. It was a great idea with poor execution.

Well, Gabbert is a rookie.
I think when we started disguising our coverage (I will try to post the whole sequence of screen shots (2 sequences actually) from a cover 2 shell, moving the safeties forth and back, it gave him fit.
Coverage disguise is one of the things I mentioned that I like about Wade Phillips' defense when I tried to give a glimpse on his defense through the years (but didn't have time to go into details when the season started.)

First, when we moved the safeties up, we gave him a zero coverage look / all out blitz.
So he changed the protection call, moving the TE and MJD near the tackles to give him max-protect.

At that time, we moved the safeties back up top.

Now that he saw two-deep safeties again; Gabbert can only assume that Nolan will get back deep over the top with the lone receiver Mike SW on this side.

Whether it was cover 2 or quarter, against an outside release, the safety is supposed to close toward the side line quickly (there's only one receiving threat on this side.)

He doesn't know how soon or how fast Nolan can get to the side line, so I don't think Gabbert (as a rookie QB) can risk a throw over the top.
Even though we can see here that a good pass over the top (which is still the fade, just not a back shoulder fade) can still beat the coverage, the throw is more difficult given the information the QB had to process in such a short period of time, especially for a rookie like Gabbert.

 

[TejasTom]

Good deal..... Now you can go back to talking about how much K-Jac sucks.

Since this is a thread about him, I will say that I like the idea of him and Allen splitting time. To me, its healthy competition and it keeps both of the fighting every play. Neither of them has time to get complacent because they're battling for playing time.

We are doing the same thing. Giving them equal time.

 

[76Texan]

I agree.... Its been rare this year to see receivers running free with a lot of space this year. We've turned our biggest weakness into a strength. Not bad for a defense in its first year of a new system with 2 supposed scrubs splitting time at the CB2 position.

I've never looked at it this way.
Despite Allen's shortcoming, I figured he's probably the journeyman type that you can plug in to play a certain role.
Before the season, I actually thought that Allen can find a place in Wade's system given how much Wade likes the inverted cover 2.

Some of the questions I had were:

- Can Allen work on his backpedal (he didn't have one prior to this season as he always played either from the shuffle or turn and bail in Miami) well enough.
He did, and we haven't seen him stumble since PS?

- Can he play the side line routes better so that he doesn't slip and fall and/or so he can react better to the receivers' moves?
He's improving.

- Can he improve his tackling techniques and skills?
A work in pogress, but he had improved some and he's been better in run support (or less astrocious).

- Can he play more physical?
Still an unknown.

If he continues his late progress, I think he can become a decent/solid CB.
There's some hope for Allen.

As far as Jackson is concerned, the unsound/patch-work schemes and the fact that they tried to fast-track hurt him badly as a rookie.
He wasn't a scrub, he was a rookie that was put in a very bad situation.
He still has work to do in his second year and the platooning system isn't a bad situation. This way, if Joseph incur an injury (he did miss a few games last year - 4 I think), we can have the next-man up.

Look at how McCain is thriving now in the nickel.
They don't try to put him on the outside against big physical receivers like the incompetent DC we had last year.

Look at how the 3 units are playing together as a unified group.
This is the biggest problem I saw last year and mentioned it several times.
A few times, I even said that Bush should have been fired on the spot (after the Cowboys game, for example).

Unlike most people, I never saw CB #2 as a weakness entering the season, to be absolutely honest!

 

[76Texan]

We are doing the same thing. Giving them equal time.

55 + 50 = 105....... hmmm. Kubiak also said it's probably even, because Kj was out with an injury for 2 games. So that means Kj has been playing significantly more snaps.

Here's the count for this game:

The Jags had 57 plays (32 passes and 25 runs) in 13 series, not counting the kneel down by Gabbert to end the half and those downs with false start or offside penalties.

Allen played the 3rd and 4th series of each half (a total of four series and 15 plays.)
Jackson played in 9 series (42 plays).
Like TK said, he didn't show up much because he had the receiver covered pretty decent to very good.
Again, like TK said, this is what I watch as much as the TV screen allows: How each CB do on their receiver on every snap.

Just to give you some numbers to look at!

 

[76Texan]

Here are the two sequences on Allen's INT:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%208%20vs%20Jags/Allens%20INT/

What I saw was cover 2 on Allen's side, and man coverage on the other side (with Joseph and McCain).
SS Demps was looking at the TE in case he releases and will give help to JJ and McCain only on inside routes.
Or it could be cover 2 on that side as well, with Demps being intructed to make sure to help Cushing on the TE but still helping out on the receivers on any inside route.

 

[Rey]

Here are the two sequences on Allen's INT:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/2011%20Week%208%20vs%20Jags/Allens%20INT/

What I saw was cover 2 on Allen's side, and man coverage on the other side (with Joseph and McCain).
SS Demps was looking at the TE in case he releases and will give help to JJ and McCain only on inside routes.
Or it could be cover 2 on that side as well, with Demps being intructed to make sure to help Cushing on the TE but still helping out on the receivers on any inside route.

76...For Nolan you drew the arrow towards the sideline (frame 42 and 43) but it looked like he was going straight back or even towards the center of the field. Look at where he is in each frame in relation to the hash mark. Nolan didn't turn to sprint towards Allen until he saw Gabbert about to throw it there. Nolan was never even a factor in the play even with the horribly thrown ball. If he was supposed to be in cover two he did a horrendous job. Nolan didn't look like he had any intentions of dropping into a cover two zone. After the frames where you drew the Arros Nolan drops straight back and to me it even looks like he went more inward to the hash.

I don't know what the coverage was, but I don't think it is what you think it is.

Also, looking at the clips I still don't think Gabbert intended to go back shoulder.

When he is releasing the ball the WR has Allen beat (frame 45)...Allen was technically beat at that point. That is when you can see Gabbert looking over to the single coverage. No need to go back shoulder with Troy Nolan all the way in the middle of the field and Allen already in an inside trail position.

Normally you'd go back shoulder when the CB is on top of the receiver and you want your guy to comeback for the ball.

I think Gabbert was just trying to throw the ball up to the guy who had a step on single coverage and he left the ball too short and too far inside.

A back shoulder throw typically is lower than that because if you put too much air under it you give the DB time to reach and make a play on the ball. There aren't a whole lot of QB's that execute the back shoulder throw well. It takes really good chemistry between the QB and receiver. Not very many QB even attempt it. How many times have we seen Schaub go back shoulder? And he's a pretty good QB. I don't see Gabbert as the type of QB that would try to do that at this stage in his career. That's a pretty high level throw, but it's very hard to stop if done correctly.

At first I thought it was a possibility that he was trying to go back shoulder, but after seeing the breakdown, I don't think he was.

JMO.

 

[76Texan]

76...For Nolan you drew the arrow towards the sideline but it looked like he was going straight back or even towards the center of the field. Look at where he is in each frame in relation to the hash mark. Nolan didn't turn to sprint towards Allen until he saw Gabbert about to throw it there. Nolan was never even a factor in the play even with the horribly thrown ball. If he was supposed to be in cover two he did a horrendous job.

I don't know what the coverage was, but I don't think it is what you think it is.

JMO.

I didn't draw the arrow. The network guys did.
Probably Rich Gannon (they had him and Marv Albert covering the game).

With his credentials, I tend to side with him.

4× Pro Bowl selection (1999, 2000, 2001, 2002)
3× All-Pro selection (2000, 2001, 2002)
3× AFC Player of the Year (2000, 2001, 2002)
2× Pro Bowl MVP (2001, 2002)
2× NFL Alumni Quarterback of the Year (2000, 2002)
2× Bert Bell Award (2000, 2002)
AP NFL MVP (2002)
PFWA NFL MVP (2002)

The fact that Nolan was late is not as important as the concept of a certain coverage that a rookie QB saw on the field (or think that he saw).

Like I said, Gabbert threw the ball very quickly; he didn't check on Nolan let alone try to freeze him.
He just saw cover 2 = deep safety help = throwing underneath.

Gannon's strong opinion was that Gabbert was fooled by the disguise in coverage.

 

[Rey]

I didn't draw the arrow. The network guys did.
Probably Rich Gannon (they had him and Marv Albert covering the game).

With his credentials, I tend to side with him.

4× Pro Bowl selection (1999, 2000, 2001, 2002)
3× All-Pro selection (2000, 2001, 2002)
3× AFC Player of the Year (2000, 2001, 2002)
2× Pro Bowl MVP (2001, 2002)
2× NFL Alumni Quarterback of the Year (2000, 2002)
2× Bert Bell Award (2000, 2002)
AP NFL MVP (2002)
PFWA NFL MVP (2002)

Ok...Well, believe what you want to believe. I think it's clear as day that Nolan never went towards the sideline until the ball was actually thrown. He stayed tight to the hash marks until then.

I really don't care who said it because I'm looking with my own two eyes and I can clearly see what happened.

But besies that, the coverage wouldn't have been cover two anyways. It would have just been doubling up on the outside receiver because there was no one else over there.

 

[b0ng]

I didn't draw the arrow. The network guys did.
Probably Rich Gannon (they had him and Marv Albert covering the game).

With his credentials, I tend to side with him.

4× Pro Bowl selection (1999, 2000, 2001, 2002)
3× All-Pro selection (2000, 2001, 2002)
3× AFC Player of the Year (2000, 2001, 2002)
2× Pro Bowl MVP (2001, 2002)
2× NFL Alumni Quarterback of the Year (2000, 2002)
2× Bert Bell Award (2000, 2002)
AP NFL MVP (2002)
PFWA NFL MVP (2002)

I didn't know that awards you receive as a player make you a better analyst. I wonder if this means that Trent Dilfer is a good analyst cause, he won a superbowl you know.

 

[Rey]

I didn't know that awards you receive as a player make you a better analyst. I wonder if this means that Trent Dilfer is a good analyst cause, he won a superbowl you know.

I actually get what 76 is saying, but I also think that sometimes analyst are wrong.

I don't think they look at everything as closely as fans/individual teams do. Plus, there is no pressure on him to actually closely examine the play and know what he's saying is realy true because guys like 76 just drink up whatever milk they put out...be it spoiled or fresh...



(just messin wit ya 76, just a joke)

But seriously 76...I'd like you to go through and read my post and look at what I said about it and actually dispute what I said...instead of hiding behind what Gannon supposedly said...

 

[Rey]

duplicate

 

[thunderkyss]

76...For Nolan you drew the arrow towards the sideline (frame 42 and 43) but it looked like he was going straight back or even towards the center of the field. Look at where he is in each frame in relation to the hash mark. Nolan didn't turn to sprint towards Allen until he saw Gabbert about to throw it there. Nolan was never even a factor in the play even with the horribly thrown ball. If he was supposed to be in cover two he did a horrendous job. Nolan didn't look like he had any intentions of dropping into a cover two zone. After the frames where you drew the Arros Nolan drops straight back and to me it even looks like he went more inward to the hash.

I don't know what the coverage was, but I don't think it is what you think it is.

I agree with this, I think Nolan is staying high (he dropped back immediately) to help with any deep routes... doesn't make a lot of sense, since Jjo & McCain are staying on top of their receivers.

But I do think Demps was supposed to drop down on the TE or provide underneath coverage... before the snap, we don't know what routes are going to be ran so it looks like we just guessed wrong on that one.

Also, looking at the clips I still don't think Gabbert intended to go back shoulder.

When he is releasing the ball the WR has Allen beat (frame 45)...Allen was technically beat at that point. That is when you can see Gabbert looking over to the single coverage. No need to go back shoulder with Troy Nolan all the way in the middle of the field and Allen already in an inside trail position.

Normally you'd go back shoulder when the CB is on top of the receiver and you want your guy to comeback for the ball.

I think Gabbert was just trying to throw the ball up to the guy who had a step on single coverage and he left the ball too short and too far inside.

A back shoulder throw typically is lower than that because if you put too much air under it you give the DB time to reach and make a play on the ball. There aren't a whole lot of QB's that execute the back shoulder throw well. It takes really good chemistry between the QB and receiver. Not very many QB even attempt it. How many times have we seen Schaub go back shoulder? And he's a pretty good QB. I don't see Gabbert as the type of QB that would try to do that at this stage in his career. That's a pretty high level throw, but it's very hard to stop if done correctly.

At first I thought it was a possibility that he was trying to go back shoulder, but after seeing the breakdown, I don't think he was.

JMO.

Completely agree with this, can't imagine a QB coach asking a rookie QB to attempt the backshoulder throw, especially when you can see his fundamentals are screwed up.

But Gabbert said he wanted the ball behind where it went.... don't know if he was trying to make excuses. Even if he were, trying to go backshoulder there makes his decision look even worse, since Nolan is not in the play & his receiver has Allen beat. Watching the video, you can see him (& I think that's MSW) slowing down & cutting inside which makes it look like Allen is on top later on in the play.

 

[thunderkyss]

This is an example of what I've been saying.
The Texans roll help over to Allen's side quite a bit more (baby-sitting).
With Joseph and Jackson, they were treated more or less evenly, there was no discernible trend with those two in coverage.

I think this point has been very understated. 76, you're absolutely 100% correct on this.

I hadn't noticed or even thought about it this season, until I saw you post something similar a while back. Since Baltimore, I've been noticing the safeties play totally different when Allen is on the field as opposed to Kj

With Kj, there is more inverted safeties at times, both safeties aren't even involved in pass coverage as they are both on the line playing the run or blitzing/fake blitzing.

The Texans have a lot more confidence in what Kj is doing.

Totally off-topic, some of us are "impressed" with Allen's ability to get INTs. That has never been part of Kj's game. He had 1 as a 4 year starter at Alabama. He was more bump & run, press dontletyourmancatchtheball cover guy. & What I've seen over the last two games, I think that's where he's going to be in the NFL.

One of the best.... I'm not going to say that. We'll have to wait & see.