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Kareem Jackson's plight.

fiasco west said:
Where did I say interceptions didn't matter? Where in my post did I say that?

You said Allen had 3 INTs and KJ had none. Therefore Allen should start. I'm saying INTs are not the end all on judging how well a CB plays. Obviously Nnamdi does not get many INTs but is one of the leagues better Corners.
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Where did you say it? By choosing to say it the way you did. That's code for "The interception stats or QB stats are not THAT important."

Look, is not the goal of football to either score points or to get the ball away from the other team so you can try to score points?

Following this line of logic out to its natural and logical end...wouldn't you prefer that your players are capable of either scoring points or regaining the ball so your offense can score said points? Isn't this THE most rudimentary and logical "goal" of football?

Or is it our goal as football fans to pour over thousands of photos of a player and try to understand why he's a "victim" or to know that he has a "plight" etc., etc.?

I've had enough of the "It's not entirely Kareem Jackson's fault he can't play better than Jason Allen" escapades.

The story I'm interested in is "Who is the better and more productive CB this 2011 season?" The answer is Jason Allen. Maybe next year KJ blossoms but I doubt it.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
What's up with the three sentence responses? If this is a halo effect from the Texans being in first place, then there is hope that this thread will go the way of Zed.
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It's not my fault that I'm a victim.

The plight I suffer from was unbiased in its ravaging effects upon my otherwise healthy post structure.

I just need another season to bloom and become the poster that you all know I can become...if I'll just be given the chance.
 
GP said:
It's not my fault that I'm a victim.

The plight I suffer from was unbiased in its ravaging effects upon my otherwise healthy post structure.

I just need another season to bloom and become the poster that you all know I can become...if I'll just be given the chance.
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:hurrah:
 
GP said:
Oh, I apologize for using too high of a %.

What do your football instincts tell you when a CB is being increasingly phased out of the lineup?

I see #30 all on my screen these past two weeks, with increased frequency. Dude is playing better than KJ. Period.
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76Texan said:
That said CB (in your usage) would be Allen.
Earlier in the season, it was pretty much 2 series for each, thereabout.
Since Jackson came back he has been taking away series and snaps from Allen.

Right now, this is the case.
I don't know what Wade will do next week.
.
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And remember, I'm using your logic here.
Jackson has been playing more than Allen; therefore, Jackson is the better player. Period.
 
76Texan said:
And remember, I'm using your logic here.
Jackson has been playing more than Allen; therefore, Jackson is the better player. Period.
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Ohhhhh now whoever the coaches play, that must be the best players :fingergun: . That is the most comical statment in this whole thread.
 
fiasco west said:
I've admitted as much. They have both had their moments. I simply rather give KJ more time because he is younger and I don't see this large gap of talent between him and Allen like some others here so I see no harm in playing him.

It's really that simple for me.

Allen is a more opportunistic DB though that has shown he can go get the ball...that doesn't necessarily make him better though.
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How do you re-read that last paragraph of yours (above) and not understand how frustrating it is for someone like me to not be frustrated with your assessment???

That paragraph is 100% telling.

You seriously say that because he's more opportunistic AND gets to the ball, that THAT doesn't necessarily make him better?

Oy. I need a Tums....
 
GP said:
Where did you say it? By choosing to say it the way you did. That's code for "The interception stats or QB stats are not THAT important."

Look, is not the goal of football to either score points or to get the ball away from the other team so you can try to score points?

Following this line of logic out to its natural and logical end...wouldn't you prefer that your players are capable of either scoring points or regaining the ball so your offense can score said points? Isn't this THE most rudimentary and logical "goal" of football?
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No one is doubting the power of the turnover. But it isn't a indication on who the best CBs are. All I said was INTs do not tell you whose the better corner.

Didn't say they weren't important, but you can't say "Allen has 3 INTs and Kareem has 0. Therefore Allen is better." judging CB play is not that simple. Revis had 0 INTs last year btw. That's my point.
 
GP said:
It's not my fault that I'm a victim.

The plight I suffer from was unbiased in its ravaging effects upon my otherwise healthy post structure.

I just need another season to bloom and become the poster that you all know I can become...if I'll just be given the chance.
Click to expand...

This is Texans' country - just wear the right colored jersey, consume the content and yell "first down," and you'll get your towel on Fan Appreciation Day.
 
GP said:
How do you re-read that last paragraph of yours (above) and not understand how frustrating it is for someone like me to not be frustrated with your assessment???

That paragraph is 100% telling.

You seriously say that because he's more opportunistic AND gets to the ball, that THAT doesn't necessarily make him better?

Oy. I need a Tums....
Click to expand...

Deangelo Hall is opportunistic also. Doesn't make him one of the better CBs in the NFL though.
 
fiasco west said:
No one is doubting the power of the turnover. But it isn't a indication on who the best CBs are. All I said was INTs do not tell you whose the better corner.

Didn't say they weren't important, but you can't say "Allen has 3 INTs and Kareem has 0. Therefore Allen is better." judging CB play is not that simple. Revis had 0 INTs last year btw. That's my point.
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why do you continue to compare jackson to Aso our Reevis ? First off noone throws at them. They throw at jackson and he still has no INTs. So what is ur logic ? it not like QBs dont throw at KJ with fear of his awesome coverage skills haha. That is however why Reevis and Aso dont get many ints. but not the case for jackson
 
76Texan said:
And remember, I'm using your logic here.
Jackson has been playing more than Allen; therefore, Jackson is the better player. Period.
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No, KJ has been playing more because he is in need of showing that he is worthy of his billing as our 1st round pick two drafts ago.

Thank GOD that WP is at least rotating them in and out and not trying to force KJ on us for the entire duration of games.

If KJ was all that and a bag of chips, he'd be out there for every snap. Not seeing his playing time decrease (steadily) two weeks in a row.

Just because a team is trying to cover its ass on a draft pick, which happens A LOT in all 32 teams, doesn't mean the team is playing it's best players. It's holding onto a stock and hoping its value increases...but some stocks are just dogs and you gotta find a way to dump those types of stocks. I figure KJ will be here through his rookie contract, or not, depending on how it is structured.
 
EllisUnit said:
you are the one saying KJ plays more because he is better. So sounds to me like ur saying it as well
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Obviously, in the long run, the better player will see more of the field.
There's nothing comical in that.
But it wasn't something I brought up in these last few posts.

In these last few posts, it was GP who said that since "he thought" (incorrectly) that Allen was playing more than Jackson, it should be "clear" that Allen is the better player.
Those are his assessments.

I was only telling him that based on his criteria, Jackson is the better player, because Jackson has been playing more.

You really need to read the posts more carefully!
 
EllisUnit said:
why do you continue to compare jackson to Aso our Reevis ? First off noone throws at them. They throw at jackson and he still has no INTs. So what is ur logic ? it not like QBs dont throw at KJ with fear of his awesome coverage skills haha. That is however why Reevis and Aso dont get many ints. but not the case for jackson
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I don't think you understand. GP said Allen should start because he has 3 INTs and KJ had 0. That's not how you judge CB play. The point is INTs are not indicative of being a better corner.

For me the only INT i've been impressed by Allen out of the 3 is the one he had this week and still it was bad decision by Blaine. Still though he played the route, got the INT, made the play and I'm happy he did it regardless.
 
fiasco west said:
I don't think you understand. GP said Allen should start because he has 3 INTs and KJ had 0. That's not how you judge CB play. The point is INTs are not indicative of being a better corner.
For me the only INT i've been impressed by Allen out of the 3 is the one he had this week and still it was bad decision by Blaine. Still though he played the route, got the INT, made the play and I'm happy he did it regardless.
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It is if the CBs get thrown at all the time, it may not be for the reevis and Aso of the NFL though.
 
GP said:
If KJ was all that and a bag of chips, he'd be out there for every snap. Not seeing his playing time decrease (steadily) two weeks in a row.
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Once again, this is absolutely incorrect.
It's the other way around, Jackson has been playing more since he came back from injury than before (the first 3 games).
 
76Texan said:
Revis got thrown at quite a bit last year.
There was link to some stats site in one of the threads.
He didn't have a good year.
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it is still beyond foolish to always compare KJ to Reevis and Aso. He is not even in the same ball park so quit comparing . Thats like me comparing the Canada military to the United States. It just seems foolish
 
EllisUnit said:
It is if the CBs get thrown at all the time, it may not be for the reevis and Aso of the NFL though.
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You must consider the INTs. It's sorta like the people who get on Mario for not getting 2 sacks per game. Judging defensive players is not about stats. A LB can have a bunch of tackles but if they are all after good gains than they don't mean much.

Also if a guy is targeted or thrown at a lot that's no good in the first place.
 
76Texan said:
Revis got thrown at quite a bit last year.
There was link to some stats site in one of the threads.
He didn't have a good year.
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Revis was hurt early in the year last year so that may have had something to do with it. He was back to form from mid-season on though.
 
fiasco west said:
You must consider the INTs. It's sorta like the people who get on Mario for not getting 2 sacks per game. Judging defensive players is not about stats. A LB can have a bunch of tackles but if they are all after good gains than they don't mean much.

Also if a guy is targeted or thrown at a lot that's no good in the first place.[/QUOTE]

heres the problem, KJ is thrown at a lot and still makes no plays on the ball. Wow he deflected a pass today against the worst passing offense in the NFL. D MVP right there :whip:
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EllisUnit said:
fiasco west said:
You must consider the INTs. It's sorta like the people who get on Mario for not getting 2 sacks per game. Judging defensive players is not about stats. A LB can have a bunch of tackles but if they are all after good gains than they don't mean much.

Also if a guy is targeted or thrown at a lot that's no good in the first place.[/QUOTE]

heres the problem, KJ is thrown at a lot and still makes no plays on the ball. Wow he deflected a pass today against the worst passing offense in the NFL. D MVP right there :whip:
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Hmm seems to me he played some good coverage today and didn't get targeted at times as well.
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EllisUnit said:
it is still beyond foolish to always compare KJ to Reevis and Aso. He is not even in the same ball park so quit comparing . Thats like me comparing the Canada military to the United States. It just seems foolish
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You're crazy, dude!

And that's why it's so irritating, I just don't want to respond to your posts.

I'm not comparing KJ to these guys.
When I compare them, it would be against their first and a half year in the league!
 
76Texan said:
You're crazy, dude!

And that's why it's so irritating, I just don't want to respond to your posts.

I'm not comparing KJ to these guys.
When I compare them, it would be against their first and a half year in the league!
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if you have been reading Fiasco's posts you would see what i am talking about i never said YOU are saying it. Although i do remember in the past you doing so.
 
GP said:
Where did you say it? By choosing to say it the way you did. That's code for "The interception stats or QB stats are not THAT important."
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How do you expect anyone to keep up if you're arguing with your imagination half the time? You can't put words in a guys mouth like that.

He said INTs aren't everything when grading CBs.. just like sacks aren't the most important thing when grading DL
GP said:
Look, is not the goal of football to either score points or to get the ball away from the other team so you can try to score points?
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The goal of the offense is to score points.

The goal of the defense is to stop them from scoring points.

Taking the ball away is the most effective way of preventing the other team from scoring, but it is not the only way. If Kareem gets a 1 for 20 snaps where he performed well, a 0 for three snaps he didn't then he scores 20 out of 23. giving up a TD, lets say that knocks him down 2 points. 18 out of 23.

Jason Allen, then scores 1 point for 16 plays where he performed well out of 22 snaps, then 2 points for the INT, Allen scores 18 out of 22 then it's a wash & you're lucky their QB didn't take advantage of the 6 snaps Allen didn't do his job.

Now I'm just pulling these numbers out of thin air, I have no idea how the Texans are grading their CBs.... I also have not charted each play, but my gut is telling me that Kareem has been much more solid in coverage than Allen. I don't know if he's been so much better that it compensates for Allens knack for INTs.

I've already said that I would "reward" Allen with the "starter" tag, but if I were king, Kj would still get more snaps than Allen, because Kj looks like the future at #2CB.
GP said:
The story I'm interested in is "Who is the better and more productive CB this 2011 season?" The answer is Jason Allen. Maybe next year KJ blossoms but I doubt it.
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Kj's worse series, he kept allowing Lance Moore to complete a slant in front of him. Three times in a row. Then when he "adjusts" to take away the slant, Moore runs right by him for a TD.

Kj's next action was against the Ravens.... Flacco tested him, but pretty much got nothing (other than the PI).

Now, Allen get's punked by Brandon Marshall.... twice, once he got rode like a cheap whore into the endzone.

He got picked on against the Steelers, gave up some yards, not much... did come up with an INT.

Heyward-Bay ran three out routes on Allen, before the half. Stopping the clock with each reception (this was inside of two minutes). Allen decides to try to stop him, and gets trucked (that's code for ran the f@$ over) for a TD.


Other than the Lance Moore drive in New Orleans, Kj has been pretty quite until today, when he gave up 1 TD.

I think the argument can be made that Kj has been more productive than Allen even without the use of all the pictures
 
EllisUnit said:
if you have been reading Fiasco's posts you would see what i am talking about i never said YOU are saying it. Although i do remember in the past you doing so.
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Man i'm not the one saying KJ is slow. Whose 40 time do you want me to bring out to compare with? Petey Faggins?

I guarantee you when a team gets a new young WR that people are looking at AJ and seeing how their guy stacks up.
 
EllisUnit said:
if you have been reading Fiasco's posts you would see what i am talking about i never said YOU are saying it. Although i do remember in the past you doing so.
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You are crazy dude!

When I bring up a specific play that is to compare how different CBs play a certain route/pattern in a certain coverage.

When I brought up the numbers of INTs it was to show that some higher draft choices didn't have much to speak of earlier in their career either!
 
76Texan said:
You are crazy dude!

When I bring up a specific play that is to compare how different CBs play a certain route/pattern in a certain coverage.

When I brought up the numbers of INTs it was to show that some higher draft choices didn't have much to speak of earlier in their career either!
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He wants you to stop because he can't argue your points.
 
The fact of the matter is i have hear 76 make up every excuse in the world to defend KJ. And most have had nothing to do with KJs bad play. Like the safties having a vendetta against him, our he was the victim of a bad front 7.

It is hard to argue with you 76 when you twist and turn stats and make up coverages through snap shots to make KJ look good, and then when allen has a good play you give him NO credit. I know Allen is no All Pro but he has played better than KJ every since we brought him in last season.

I have heard enough of you KJ Bull ****, we will pick this up when he is fully considered a bust. Which by the looks of things wont be very long.
 
thunderkyss said:
....

Other than the Lance Moore drive in New Orleans, Kj has been pretty quite until today, when he gave up 1 TD.

I think the argument can be made that Kj has been more productive than Allen even without the use of all the pictures
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With this post i'm going to leave the KJ thing alone for now. I've been seeing the same thing. Especially the Raiders game.

KJ has had one really bad game (The Saints game) and other than that has looked decent and has shown good improvement from his rookie year. Really that's all that matters to me.
 
I don't understand how folks don't understand people wanting Allen to start.

He has made some big plays in big moments. Momentum changing plays.

Kareem doesn't do that.

Kareem has obviously been better this year though and I can understand wanting to see him grow as well.

There is no argument right now IMO. They are playing well enough as a tandem. They are pushing each other.

Who cares who is technically the starter.
 
EllisUnit said:
The fact of the matter is i have hear 76 make up every excuse in the world to defend KJ. And most have had nothing to do with KJs bad play. Like the safties having a vendetta against him, our he was the victim of a bad front 7.

It is hard to argue with you 76 when you twist and turn stats and make up coverages through snap shots to make KJ look good, and then when allen has a good play you give him NO credit. I know Allen is no All Pro but he has played better than KJ every since we brought him in last season.

I have heard enough of you KJ Bull ****, we will pick this up when he is fully considered a bust. Which by the looks of things wont be very long.
Click to expand...
You had made your points for Allen that you can make.
You said you would wait and see who will get the starting job for this season, and that would pretty much ascertain that "you are right" about Allen.
Well, Allen isn't starting.
And so, up to this point, whatever you looked at doesn't prove your case.

On the other hand, the guy who you've been calling a bust continues to start.

Did I twist and turn anything there?
 
fiasco west said:
With this post i'm going to leave the KJ thing alone for now. I've been seeing the same thing. Especially the Raiders game.

KJ has had one really bad game (The Saints game) and other than that has looked decent and has shown good improvement from his rookie year. Really that's all that matters to me.
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Kj missed two games so that minimized his chances for error.

But let's not act like kj has become some solid player. He's given up some big plays in a few of the games hes participated in. he's had his share of ugly moments.

By the sane token Allen has had some ugly moments as well.

Neither one has separated really.
 
Rey said:
I don't understand how folks don't understand people wanting Allen to start.

He has made some big plays in big moments. Momentum changing plays.

Kareem doesn't do that.

Kareem has obviously been better this year though and I can understand wanting to see him grow as well.

There is no argument right now IMO. They are playing well enough as a tandem. They are pushing each other.

Who cares who is technically the starter.
Click to expand...

I just want to reiterate that I have yet to criticize Allen this year.

For me, it has always been letting Wade deciding on whom to play, and whom to start.
 
76Texan said:
You had made your points for Allen that you can make.
You said you would wait and see who will get the starting job for this season, and that would pretty much ascertain that "you are right" about Allen.
Well, Allen isn't starting.
And so, up to this point, whatever you looked at doesn't prove your case.

On the other hand, the guy who you've been calling a bust continues to start.

Did I twist and turn anything there?
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Ummm you contradict yourself so much. Just because the guys who drafted him continue to start him dont make it right. And you said that GP made this foolish statment earlier. You just made this statment.

Your love for KJ is sick. I wish we didnt have allen our KJ but since we have to have one our the other out there i choose allen.
 
Seriously why the hell are you guys still arguing this.

Top 5 pass defense.
Number 1 in percentage complete allowed...

Now if K.Jax is as bad as everyone keeps saying, our numbers would be much worse than that.
 
Ill keep it short


I think Jackson played pretty good today and hopefully he will improve each week
 
Rey said:
Kj missed two games so that minimized his chances for error.

But let's not act like kj has become some solid player. He's given up some big plays in a few of the games hes participated in. he's had his share of ugly moments.

By the sane token Allen has had some ugly moments as well.

Neither one has separated really.
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I really don't care who starts and agree that no one has really won the job. The only thing that matters is Kareem's development to me. It is a bonus that Allen isn't a terrible CB given that we picked him up off waivers last season.

But Kareem's growth as a player is what I'm interested in and I understand he's going to give up plays as all corners do especially young ones. But some of the comments would have you believe that Kareem is one of the worst starting CBs in the NFL...or at least that he's a terrible player that isn't capable of playing the position in the NFL. I just don't agree with that (although we could do much better...and much worse too like Fred Bennet and Faggins....)

I think that's where the divide is. Some people think Kareem is a bad player that doesn't deserve to see the field as much as he does and others don't.
 
EllisUnit said:
Ummm you contradict yourself so much. Just because the guys who drafted him continue to start him dont make it right. And you said that GP made this foolish statment earlier. You just made this statment.
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The one who contradicts himself is you.
You said you'd be down with whomever Wade choses to start, that you just want to see both of them to play better.

The statements I brought up was your viewpoint.

When you argue with your own viewpoint, you are contradicting with yourself.
 
TBO i dont even think Jackson is one of the worst rooke CB in the leauge much less all CB in the leauge

I think if u pull of a CB stat sheet Jackson is not on the bottom
 
fiasco west said:
I really don't care who starts and agree that no one has really won the job. The only thing that matters is Kareem's development to me. It is a bonus that Allen isn't a terrible CB given that we picked him up off waivers last season.

But Kareem's growth as a player is what I'm interested in and I understand he's going to give up plays as all corners do especially young ones. But some of the comments would have you believe that Kareem is one of the worst starting CBs in the NFL...or at least that he's a terrible player that isn't capable of playing the position in the NFL. I just don't agree with that (although we could do much better...and much worse too like Fred Bennet and Faggins....)

I think that's where the divide is. Some people think Kareem is a bad player that doesn't deserve to see the field as much as he does and others don't.
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Good post!
 
76Texan said:
The one who contradicts himself is you.
You said you'd be down with whomever Wade choses to start, that you just want to see both of them to play better.The statements I brought up was your viewpoint.

When you argue with your own viewpoint, you are contradicting with yourself.
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and i still do, but only one of them is playing better and its not your boy. So not contradicting myself.

I still hope KJ turns into an amazing player. I dont wish for him to fail. I just see him failing. If not for all your crazy talk about how KJ is victim of this and that i would never even mention KJ.

He has played better than last season, i will give him that. BUT i still think allen has played better and AT THIS POINT IN TIME shows more potential.
 
fiasco west said:
I think that's where the divide is. Some people think Kareem is a bad player that doesn't deserve to see the field as much as he does and others don't.
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Whoever believes that is wrong IMO.

Both have played better since the beginning of the year.

I'm not worried about development. Kareem has plenty resources and snaps to develop.

I just want the best product on the field on a game to game basis. Right mow Kareem Allen( or Jason Jackson) is working.
 
EllisUnit said:
and i still do, but only one of them is playing better and its not your boy. So not contradicting myself.

I still hope KJ turns into an amazing player. I dont wish for him to fail. I just see him failing. If not for all your crazy talk about how KJ is victim of this and that i would never even mention KJ.

He has played better than last season, i will give him that. BUT i still think allen has played better and AT THIS POINT IN TIME shows more potential.
Click to expand...

No, you went against your words when you said that you'd be OK with whomever Wade choses to be the starter, but now you're still saying that Allen should be the starter.

Take it like a man, dude!

When Wade thinks Allen gives the team the better chance to win, he will start him.
 
I stopped reading this page weeks ago but I wanted to come in and say one thing. KJ played very well today. Allen played very well today. Allen got the INT but KJ had two very nicely defended balls today. Allen did too. Neither was torched. Say what you want about rookie QB and Jags but they both looked good today. That's not a guarantee for next week of course but it is a big difference from last year.

Mike
 
76Texan said:
No, you went against your words when you said that you'd be OK with whomever Wade choses to be the starter, but now you're still saying that Allen should be the starter.

Take it like a man, dude!

When Wade thinks Allen gives the team the better chance to win, he will start him.
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:whip: nope. until Kubiak finally sees KJ for what he HAS been KJ will start. Hell if KJ becomes the next reevis i will gladly eat my crow and be happy about it. But as it stands he is MMMIIILLLLEEESSSS away !
 
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