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Kareem Jackson's plight.

Rey said:
I don't understand how folks don't understand people wanting Allen to start.

He has made some big plays in big moments. Momentum changing plays.

Kareem doesn't do that.

Kareem has obviously been better this year though and I can understand wanting to see him grow as well.

There is no argument right now IMO. They are playing well enough as a tandem. They are pushing each other.

Who cares who is technically the starter.
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I agree with this. I can't imagine Wade not throwing Allen a bone & naming him the starter from here on out, but Kj would still get more snaps.

My only gripe here, is with the guys who think hands down Allen is a better player. When I'm at the game, all I do is watch the receivers & corners. When Allen is on the field I smh all the time thanking our lucky stars we aren't playing any quality QBs.

It was different earlier this year, Kj was just as bad. But heJs got better every game. Today was a very good game for him. I said it earlier, looks like the game is slowing down & his talent is starting to take over. Come play-off time, I think Kj is going to be ready to be the full time starter.

But then what do you do with Allen? Put him in as the nickel? I don't think he is a full time player, but he does deserve playing time. Then we've got Brandon Harris sitting on the Bench. It's a good problem to have really.
 
thunderkyss said:
I agree with this. I can't imagine Wade not throwing Allen a bone & naming him the starter from here on out.

My only gripe here, is with the guys who think hands down Allen is a better player. When I'm at the game, all I do is watch the receivers & corners. When Allen is on the field I smh all the time thanking our lucky stars we aren't playing any quality QBs.

It was different earlier this year, Kj was just as bad. But heJs got better every game. Today was a very good game for him. I said it earlier, looks like the game is slowing down & his talent is starting to take over. Come play-off time, I think Kj is going to be ready to be the full time starter.

But then what do you do with Allen? Put him in as the nickel? I don't think he is a full time player, but he does deserve playing time. Then we've got Brandon Harris sitting on the Bench. It's a good problem to have really.
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Someone had a great point in saying that they're different players. Kareem had his strengths and Allen has his. The fact of the matter is I think Wade will find a way to incorporate them into the game to allow our defense to be successful. What difference does it make how we get it done?
 
EllisUnit said:
Difference. WRs have to run route, fake in and go out, all a CB has to do is follow and have speed to keep up. i'm sorry but speed is the main component to a good CB. Aso and Reevis arent slow, neither was aaron glenn, our D-Rob, our JoJo. Name 1 good slow cb ????
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Two words: Jacques Reeves.

The guy was seriously fast and he'd be step for step with the fastest WR in the league. But that wasn't enough to make him a good cornerback.

Nnamdi Asomugha is a 4.45 40 guy and KJ is a 4.48 40 guy. Neither of them is the 4.34 or 4.38 guy like a Revis or a Dunta Robinson.

Kareem is fast enough to be a corner. He's got skills. He's a vicious tackler and he's good in run support. But he's got some things he needs to work on. I think he's made a lot of improvement since last year.
 
Does Eric Allen count because he wasn't fast? Well actually neither him or Bobby Taylor were fast and they were one of the best CB duos for years.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Two words: Jacques Reeves.

The guy was seriously fast and he'd be step for step with the fastest WR in the league. But that wasn't enough to make him a good cornerback.

Nnamdi Asomugha is a 4.45 40 guy and KJ is a 4.48 40 guy. Neither of them is the 4.34 or 4.38 guy like a Revis or a Dunta Robinson.

Kareem is fast enough to be a corner. He's got skills. He's a vicious tackler and he's good in run support. But he's got some things he needs to work on. I think he's made a lot of improvement since last year.
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Whoa.. whoa.. whoa... slow down...

We've already established those names can only be used by EllisUnit when tearing down Kj's game. Do not use those names in a supporting argument, even if you are directly replying to his posts when he used those names.

Just stop.
 
thunderkyss said:
Whoa.. whoa.. whoa... slow down...

We've already established those names can only be used by EllisUnit when tearing down Kj's game. Do not use those names in a supporting argument, even if you are directly replying to his posts when he used those names.
Just stop.
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TK please show me 1 post where i compared Aso our Reevis to KJ. I always talk about how foolish it is for some to compare them but i have NEVER compared KJ our Allen to Aso our Reevis. Please let me see where i have done this !!!!
 
EllisUnit said:
TK please show me 1 post where i compared Aso our Reevis to KJ. I always talk about how foolish it is for some to compare them but i have NEVER compared KJ our Allen to Aso our Reevis. Please let me see where i have done this !!!!
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I don't know if you have compared KJ to the elites, but you have kinda gotten to the point to where you aren't looking at the players objectively...IMO of course...

Seriously, what has either one of them done (playing wise) that says he is clearly the best player to have on the field as the starter taking a majority of the snaps?

They both have looked pretty bad at times, but as the year has progressed they have actually been a pretty good combo...KJ has stepped his game up...That's not even a question...Allen has made some big plays...As long as Allen is making INT's and making plays like he did against pitt he deserves to take some of those snaps...
 
Rey said:
I don't know if you have compared KJ to the elites, but you have kinda gotten to the point to where you aren't looking at the players objectively...IMO of course...

Seriously, what has either one of them done (playing wise) that says he is clearly the best player to have on the field as the starter taking a majority of the snaps?

They both have looked pretty bad at times, but as the year has progressed they have actually been a pretty good combo...KJ has stepped his game up...That's not even a question...Allen has made some big plays...As long as Allen is making INT's and making plays like he did against pitt he deserves to take some of those snaps...
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Your post has nothing to do with TK continually talking out of his ass like he does every post on this thread. I respect most of his opinions but to try to call me out and make claims that are not true to make me look bad is bull ****. They can make up excuses, make up coverages, blame safties, blame coaching, blame the other CBs for KJ, and not actually blame him. But to call me out and say i compare him to top CBs around the league is horse ****. Especially when he still has yet to show ONE exapmle of me doing this !!!!

So in other words your post i quoted above has nothing to do with TK showing me those quotes. Only reason i tear KJ down so badly NOW is because they tear allen down worse. And allen has more ints, more passes defended than KJ this year, and has played less time.
 
EllisUnit said:
thunderkyss said:
The Pencil Neck said:
EllisUnit said:
fiasco west said:
Playing DB in the NFL is not all about speed. Otherwise Desean Jackson would be a elite WR because he'd be faster than most guys across from him.

Edit: Also that even guys that come in with speed struggle. It's a lot more than just having speed. It's about knowing routes and being physical when you can.
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Difference. WRs have to run route, fake in and go out, all a CB has to do is follow and have speed to keep up. i'm sorry but speed is the main component to a good CB. Aso and Reevis arent slow, neither was aaron glenn, our D-Rob, our JoJo. Name 1 good slow cb ????
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Two words: Jacques Reeves.

The guy was seriously fast and he'd be step for step with the fastest WR in the league. But that wasn't enough to make him a good cornerback.

Nnamdi Asomugha is a 4.45 40 guy and KJ is a 4.48 40 guy. Neither of them is the 4.34 or 4.38 guy like a Revis or a Dunta Robinson.

Kareem is fast enough to be a corner. He's got skills. He's a vicious tackler and he's good in run support. But he's got some things he needs to work on. I think he's made a lot of improvement since last year.
Click to expand...

Whoa.. whoa.. whoa... slow down...

We've already established those names can only be used by EllisUnit when tearing down Kj's game. Do not use those names in a supporting argument, even if you are directly replying to his posts when he used those names.

Just stop.
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TK please show me 1 post where i compared Aso our Reevis to KJ. I always talk about how foolish it is for some to compare them but i have NEVER compared KJ our Allen to Aso our Reevis. Please let me see where i have done this !!!!
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Let's see. You're the one who brought up Aso & Reevis in this conversation here. I just cut in to stop the Pencil Neck from your "why are we talking about Aso & Reevis" post like you did earlier, even though you brought up Aso & Reevis
 
thunderkyss said:
Let's see. You're the one who brought up Aso & Reevis in this conversation here. I just cut in to stop the Pencil Neck from your "why are we talking about Aso & Reevis" post like you did earlier, even though you brought up Aso & Reevis
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That is it hahahaha.........if you want to go back further you will see where Fiasco brought in other CBs names to compare speed to KJ and i am talking about further than you did go back, well before i did. Thats why i threw them names out there. Not because i was trying to compare them. You are like 76 you see what you want to see.
 
EllisUnit said:
fiasco west said:
No one is doubting the power of the turnover. But it isn't a indication on who the best CBs are. All I said was INTs do not tell you whose the better corner.

Didn't say they weren't important, but you can't say "Allen has 3 INTs and Kareem has 0. Therefore Allen is better." judging CB play is not that simple. Revis had 0 INTs last year btw. That's my point.
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why do you continue to compare jackson to Aso our Reevis ? First off noone throws at them. They throw at jackson and he still has no INTs. So what is ur logic ? it not like QBs dont throw at KJ with fear of his awesome coverage skills haha. That is however why Reevis and Aso dont get many ints. but not the case for jackson
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Is this not a comparison of KJ to Aso & Reevis? Is this not you making the comparison? Good point by the way, but this is you making the comparison
 
EllisUnit said:
fiasco west said:
EllisUnit said:
fiasco west said:
No one is doubting the power of the turnover. But it isn't a indication on who the best CBs are. All I said was INTs do not tell you whose the better corner.

Didn't say they weren't important, but you can't say "Allen has 3 INTs and Kareem has 0. Therefore Allen is better." judging CB play is not that simple. Revis had 0 INTs last year btw. That's my point.
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why do you continue to compare jackson to Aso our Reevis ? First off noone throws at them. They throw at jackson and he still has no INTs. So what is ur logic ? it not like QBs dont throw at KJ with fear of his awesome coverage skills haha. That is however why Reevis and Aso dont get many ints. but not the case for jackson
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I don't think you understand. GP said Allen should start because he has 3 INTs and KJ had 0. That's not how you judge CB play. The point is INTs are not indicative of being a better corner.

For me the only INT i've been impressed by Allen out of the 3 is the one he had this week and still it was bad decision by Blaine. Still though he played the route, got the INT, made the play and I'm happy he did it regardless.
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It is if the CBs get thrown at all the time, it may not be for the reevis and Aso of the NFL though.
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This is you making another comparison. Actually, it's the same comparison, you just did it again.
 
fiasco west said:
Nnamdi Asomugha 40 time: 4.45
Kareem Jackson 40 time: 4.40
Darrelle Revis: 4.38

As I was saying before. He's not a slow corner.
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None of mine are comparisons. I am simply feeding off of his comparison. He brought them itno all this talk.....i never compare unless trying to prove someone else who brings the players in wrong. which is the case here
 
EllisUnit said:
That is it hahahaha.........if you want to go back further you will see where Fiasco brought in other CBs names to compare speed to KJ and i am talking about further than you did go back, well before i did. Thats why i threw them names out there. Not because i was trying to compare them. You are like 76 you see what you want to see.
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I think you're having a hard time following this conversation, & should probably stop.

I didn't say you started the comparison, I said you compared Kj to Aso & Revis, then when someone made a comment about your comparison, you jumped on them for using the names Aso & Reevis.
 
EllisUnit said:
There is where it all started.......... i didnt mention ONE name until he came up with this B.S
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& that came up because you said (or someone said) that Kj was slow. fiasco's post was showing that Kj's speed is in line with top NFL corners.

Somehow you missed that. You'd still like to believe Kj is slow. Or at least it seems that way.
 
EllisUnit said:
None of mine are comparisons. I am simply feeding off of his comparison. He brought them itno all this talk.....i never compare unless trying to prove someone else who brings the players in wrong. which is the case here
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Keywords have been bolded.

Bottom line, someone is talking out their ass, & this time it isn't me.
 
thunderkyss said:
I think you're having a hard time following this conversation, & should probably stop.

I didn't say you started the comparison, I said you compared Kj to Aso & Revis, then when someone made a comment about your comparison, you jumped on them for using the names Aso & Reevis.
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Yeah how else am i sipposed to argue with someone who is trying to compare the 3 ??? Say CB a and CB b ??? No i perfer not to compare them at all cause they are not in the same class.
 
Corrosion said:
40 times are over rated .... actual playing speed and reactions arent. :spin:
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Yep I know. I said as much also. But 40 times still tell you a players actual speed.

Also Ellis, you should backtrack to page 30. I did not mention them first. So you are wrong when you say I did.
 
OK.....so here's my deal between Allen and Jackson. They are both playing basically the same amount of time.

"If you look at our play time right now, they're 55 and 50, so they're split right down the middle," coach Gary Kubiak said.

If I'm looking at clearly a standpoint of a guy that's winning vs. his man, I can see Allen has 3 INTs to Jackson's 0.

Does Allen get beat alot too? Yes. Does Allen give us a better chance at creating a turnover? Yes. IMO, you gotta go with Allen.
 
El Tejano said:
OK.....so here's my deal between Allen and Jackson. They are both playing basically the same amount of time.

"If you look at our play time right now, they're 55 and 50, so they're split right down the middle," coach Gary Kubiak said.

If I'm looking at clearly a standpoint of a guy that's winning vs. his man, I can see Allen has 3 INTs to Jackson's 0.

Does Allen get beat alot too? Yes. Does Allen give us a better chance at creating a turnover? Yes. IMO, you gotta go with Allen.
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55 + 50 = 105....... hmmm. Kubiak also said it's probably even, because Kj was out with an injury for 2 games. So that means Kj has been playing significantly more snaps.

Here's something I got from today's Chronicle:
“To me, Kareem has played really, really solid,” he said. “I told (assistant secondary coach) Perry Carter, he’s all over these guys. It’s a start.”
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As far as the Int thing goes, I agree. Allen's 3 INTs in a part time roll should get him something. But if I'm trying to determine why the Texans are playing Kj as much as they are, & I'm not satisfied with the, "he's a 1st round pick & they're trying to save face" excuse, I've got to watch each of them & grade them on their performance.

It's not easy to do from the TV, but it can be done. However, if you go to the game & focus on those two players, Kj is clearly a better CB right now. He's more confident, which allows him to be more physical.

You can tell he's more confident, because at the line, Kj will almost always try to get a hand on the receiver.. Allen will almost always break into his back pedal before the snap.

& vs the Jags receivers, Kj was running with them step for step. Kj's the future at #2CB... Allen is a band-aid
 
El Tejano said:
OK.....so here's my deal between Allen and Jackson. They are both playing basically the same amount of time.

"If you look at our play time right now, they're 55 and 50, so they're split right down the middle," coach Gary Kubiak said.

If I'm looking at clearly a standpoint of a guy that's winning vs. his man, I can see Allen has 3 INTs to Jackson's 0.

Does Allen get beat alot too? Yes. Does Allen give us a better chance at creating a turnover? Yes. IMO, you gotta go with Allen.
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Interceptions are as much about disrespect by QB's (I am throwing at you because your coverage sucks) and poor plays by QB's (whoops sailed that pass and a guy who wasn't even covering the guy I was throwing at ended up getting an INT) as they are DB talent (which is not to say it isn't part of the equation). Remember Jairus Byrd with his 9 INT rookie season and now he has 2 in the past two seasons?
 
Revis had 0 ints last year....Interceptions are not the only figures to judge a cb by. In fact, I don't think KJax has been targeted quite as often (very good sign). If you are playing good coverage, QBs will not throw at your man. The only time I can think of where Kjax was picked on was the fourth quarter of NO game in which Brees just dumped it qiuckly on a slant route over and over again.
 
Figured this should go here.

Spend enough time around the Texans' defensive backs, and a mention of coach VJ - first-year secondary coach Vance Joseph - is inevitable. And for good reason. A beleaguered unit that was last a year ago in pass defense is now ranked fifth, allowing 189.4 yards per game. Opponents are completing only 50.8 percent of their passes, and quarterbacks are registering a 65.9 passer rating against the Texans, the third lowest in the NFL.
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"It's all about relationships," Vance Joseph said. "They know when it's real, when you care about their well-being. That gets lost in the NFL. If you build something in guys, you can coach them as hard as you want."

He refuses to yell for the sake of yelling. His honesty extends from the field to the meeting room, where flaws are practically celebrated. Transparency is vital. Players openly discuss each other's weaknesses, but not in the hopes of tearing down a teammate. Rather, the openness allows the players to feel comfortable, to ask questions that might not have been asked before and to even volunteer suggestions.
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mediaManager
 
infantrycak said:
Interceptions are as much about disrespect by QB's (I am throwing at you because your coverage sucks) and poor plays by QB's (whoops sailed that pass and a guy who wasn't even covering the guy I was throwing at ended up getting an INT) as they are DB talent (which is not to say it isn't part of the equation). Remember Jairus Byrd with his 9 INT rookie season and now he has 2 in the past two seasons?
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foo82 said:
Revis had 0 ints last year....Interceptions are not the only figures to judge a cb by. In fact, I don't think KJax has been targeted quite as often (very good sign). If you are playing good coverage, QBs will not throw at your man. The only time I can think of where Kjax was picked on was the fourth quarter of NO game in which Brees just dumped it qiuckly on a slant route over and over again.
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The way you guys are talking you make INT's seem like a bad thing. :kitten:
 
Well I mean to be fair... the Texans being 5th in pass D is because of the QB's we have been playing with the receiving core those QB's have. Brees and Roethlis are pretty much the only two QB's who are good and have targets that we have played in 8 games.
 
Kthx said:
Well I mean to be fair... the Texans being 5th in pass D is because of the QB's we have been playing with the receiving core those QB's have. Brees and Roethlis are pretty much the only two QB's who are good and have targets that we have played in 8 games.
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True, but Henne was coming off of a 400 yard game before we played him, and Campbell was playing pretty well too until he got hurt. Flacco has always been a great home field QB as well. The only teams that I say we faced that didn't pose any passing threat at all are the Colts and Jags. Even Tennessee had been moving the ball through the air pretty well until we faced them.
 
Kthx said:
Well I mean to be fair... the Texans being 5th in pass D is because of the QB's we have been playing with the receiving core those QB's have. Brees and Roethlis are pretty much the only two QB's who are good and have targets that we have played in 8 games.
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No team faces top level passing attacks every week in the regular season.
 
infantrycak said:
Interceptions are as much about disrespect by QB's (I am throwing at you because your coverage sucks) and poor plays by QB's (whoops sailed that pass and a guy who wasn't even covering the guy I was throwing at ended up getting an INT) as they are DB talent (which is not to say it isn't part of the equation). Remember Jairus Byrd with his 9 INT rookie season and now he has 2 in the past two seasons?
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But Allen also has a few more passes defensed than Jackson does too right?
 
The secondary as a whole has improved with each passing game this season, the most exciting thing about that is the fact that they still haven't peaked yet.

The loss of Manning didn't seem to hinder them either last week which is a major positive, part of me did wonder if we'd miss his veteran leadership from behind the play and would lose out across the secondary as a whole because of that, but no, Nolan stepped in and Quin stepped up.

Here's to hoping Kareems reduced playing time gives him the opportunity to develop into that #2 role, Allen is doing a reasonable job at this point and making a few plays into the bargain, not a bad option to have and gives Kareem a chance to take extra in-game coaching to get better.
 
38 pages to try and argue an inarguable point. Jeez.

Nothing said here changes the fact that KJ is not a good cornerback, and isn't even the 2nd best CB on a team full of crappy CBs.
 
Rey said:
How do you know what the QB's intentions were is my point
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Because of the route than was ran. And how the play played out. You can pretty much use process of elimination. Also there's a quote in the Chronicle where Jason Allen and Vance Joseph were talking about how they were expecting and preparing for the back shoulder fade, and he benefited from his work in practice. But its pretty clear of what Gabbert was trying to do even without seeing those quotes. It just looked like it was poorly executed.

What other route did you think it could be? The only other routes it possibly could be is a deep curl or comeback, but it would have still been a poorly thrown ball.
 
But then Allen explained the play happened on a back-shoulder fade, the same throw/route on which he had been beaten a couple of times earlier in the season.

"Me and coach VJ, we've been working on that," Allen said.
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Quote from the article...... It wasn't a well executed back shoulder fade, but it was an attempted back shoulder fade.
 
Texn4life said:
What other route did you think it could be? The only other routes it possibly could be is a deep curl or comeback, but it would have still been a poorly thrown ball.
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Back shoulder throw isn't a type of route.

I'm not arguing the poorly thrown ball and remember how this conversation started. I repsonded to TK saying that the pass didn't appear to be a back shoulder throw and it looks like it was thrown to the inside (which is not where a back shoulder throw should be).

You then responded basically saying it was obviously a poorly thrown back shoulder pass...That's a possibility. But what I'm saying and have been trying to say, and what you basically said above is: There could be other possibilities
 
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