infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Really? Name the last non-franchise guy to win one.
I'd say you have to go all the way back to Brad Johnson.
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JaDeveon Clowney
- Thread starter Marcus
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Really? Name the last non-franchise guy to win one.
I'd say you have to go all the way back to Brad Johnson.
I think you'd have to define a franchise QB then. I wouldn't consider Eli a franchise QB. Maybe not Wilson even.
1. What gives you this idea
2. Contradictory do your first statement. Make up your mind
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Well the Giants disagree and the Seahawks are about to.
But to me a franchise QB is exactly what it sounds like - once you've got him, the position is set and the franchise stops looking. Eli and Wilson both qualify on that standard. All have been the undisputed starter since getting their gig. Doesn't have to be elite, that's why we have a separate elite QB category.
Not sure why the Ravens think Eli is franchise
I get your point tho, and I guess the Giants figure they got their guy and are set so yeah you could be right. Franchise is not the same as elite
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Not sure why the Ravens think Eli is franchise
I get your point tho, and I guess the Giants figure they got their guy and are set so yeah you could be right. Franchise is not the same as elite
Damn you caught that before I got it edited.
Eli has 11 years in and at 34 it's still his team for the foreseeable future. I think that's a franchise guy.
Norg
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Russell Wilson was a 4th round pick and backup going into the season
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
3rd round but so what? He's clearly a franchise guy.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
That wasn't the assertion.
Norg
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well now he is my point was u can sometimes find a gem QB in the 3rd or 4th round
and I don't know the list but im sure there are 3rd and 4th round QB's who have won the SB or got to the SB
I see your point. We're just mixing words. If you want to define a franchise QB as you did above this reasonable. But I believe the whole, you can win a Super Bowl without a "franchise QB" argument is based on franchise = elite. Many teams have won a Super Bowl without elite QBs.
Wilson is not an elite QB and his QB rating in this game should be evidence of that. I think for his career you could say he is an elite game manager.
Naaah, just last year.
I mean some talking heads still say Russell Wilson or Joe Flacco aren't franchise QBs.
Edit (just looked at subsequent posts):
Okay, you're making a distinction between "franchise" and "elite"
...fair enough.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Russell Wilson. I don't have to go back further than last year.
I remember I thought the same of Tom Brady his first five years in the league. Three Super Bowls didn't mean much to me, he wasn't much of a "QB" & I thought the comparisons to Manning were just plain silly.
There's no guarantee that Russell will develop the way Brady has, but he's off to a really good start.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
He can be successful as long as he is surrounded by a great team. And that's my point. The team consists of more than the QB. Great QBs can take an average team far on occasion, but even the best QB's can't do it with a bad team or consistently with an average team.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Sub in Fitz and Seattle goes nowhere the last 4 years.
This game manager thing has become a mindlessly repeated meme about Wilson. That franchise is about to give him a contract making it absolutely clear he's their franchise QB.
Dude orchestrated an historic playoff comeback yesterday with perfectly placed touch passes and this drivel continues.
PapaL
Loose Screw
Does he get credit for the comeback when it's the 4 INTs that got them in that whole mess? He looked horrible for the vast majority of that game.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I contend you're just wrong. Put Fitz in there and the result would have been the same.
I didn't like the INT in the endzone, he should have got that ball ahead of his receiver when the DB was trailing. He also shouldn't have chucked the ball into double coverage.
The other two INTs that popped off his receiver's hands shouldn't be on him.
He wasn't great, before the final 5 minutes of the game, but he wasn't "horrible" either.
& it's not like Andrew Luck doesn't put his team in bad positions, then becomes the hero at the end of the game either.
You'd be foolish not to want Russell Wilson on your team.
PapaL
Loose Screw
Never said I wouldn't want him on our team. I only questioned if he gets credit for this comeback. He was off the entire game but he made two of the most beautiful passes you'll ever see.
But yeah, he was pretty horrible the rest of that game, except when it counted most. Constantly throwing into double and triple coverage. Not making more than one read. (I'm sure there's more than a few pages of us complaining about our QBs doing the same this year) But he did deliver when his team needed him most. No doubt about that.
So I guess Aaron Rodgers was horrible in the second half when his team couldn't manage more than a field goal.
PapaL
Loose Screw
Did I say anything about putting up points? Pretty sure I was talking about double and triple coverages and not making reads.
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
Are you honestly saying Wilson wasn't terrible before the last five minutes of the game? He completed one pass to his team in the first half and only had 75 yards passing with five minutes remaining in the game. He was terrible. It was the worst game of his career.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You answered your own question.
When it came down to must perform, he did. Every QB makes mistakes. Some can recover and some can't. He makes few mistakes overall and has a long track record now of performing to bring his team back to win from behind whether due to his own mistakes or others'.
LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL
Dude has led the league in game winning drives two of his three seasons and was 2nd the 3rd. In twice as many starts Fitz has just over half as many GWDs. Fitz is anti-clutch.
Thing is games aren't 55 minutes long.
But you're right, it was the worst game of his career - and he still got a playoff win.
I'm just trying to define "horrible"
For the entire game, Aaron Rodgers threw the ball 34 times for 178 yards.
Russell Wilson threw the ball 29 times for 209 yards.
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
Define it however you want. Wilson was 2/9 for 12 yards in the 1st half with 3 INT's. He was 8/22 for 75 yards & 4 INT's with 3:52 left in the 4th quarter. That's horrible.
The fact that he went 6/7 for 134 yards after that doesn't mean he wasn't terrible the first 57 minutes of the game.
He got a playoff win? No his team got a playoff win. He stunk in that game and no matter what you say he's not, never has been and will never be a QB that can carry a team on his back. He is not an elite QB. He's a really good game manger that makes plays with his legs not his arm when things break down. He has a great OL and a great running game that allows him to be able to do that. Put him on any other team and average at best. He is a slightly better young Fitzpatrick playing in the perfect system on the perfect team.
If he ever loses his mobility or changes teams he won't be nearly as effective. He had a QB rating of 10 in that game yesterday with 5 minutes to go. Had Green Bay played to win instead of going all Kubiakish after that last interception he would be getting drilled with criticism today.
It took a dominating Lynch and onside kick to win that game. Not a hero QB.
Agreed.
At least two of those picks hit the WR dead in the hands. He couldn't have placed them any better.
Remember "The Catch"; Joe Montana to Dwight Clark? Everyone remembers that drive and that throw as classic. It started the Niners' dynasty. But nobody remembers that Montana turned the ball over four times (three picks and a fumble) that day. Winning the T/O battle 6-3, the Cowboys should have killed them.
It's what you do at crunch time, baby. And Montana came through.
Aaron Rodgers got the ball back with 3 timeouts and 1:25 (or something like that) on the clock when his crunch time came. All he could muster was a FG.
You tell me, which guy "answered the bell", Rodgers or Wilson?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
That's true of every football game ever.
He has too many times for this to be an assertion anymore. Not even worth arguing.
Nice strawman. Haven't ever said he is.
Shear stupidity - IT TOOK ALL THREE. Without QB heroics they lose.
Damn I was going to use that exact example and chickened out not wanting to face the moronic replies of "Wilson shouldn't be in the same sentence with Montana."
The game manager meme goes along nicely with the trope of tearing down any quarterback "on paper", no matter what he accomplishes on the field of play, college or professional.
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
I'm not knocking Russell Wilson at all. I would take him as our QB in a heartbeat. Wilson was clutch yesterday at the end of the game. I'm not denying that. I'm just saying he was horrible the first 56 minutes of the game.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I'm just not of the opinion the Texans would win even one more game with him than with our collection of QBs. In fact, he would fit in nicely with who we already have. Certainly not an elite franchise type QB.
All good QBs are "game managers".
The better ones are that plus other things, like clutch, or big arm, or mobile or [insert description here].
I agree with you that the term gets overused and is often derogatory, but I'm fighting that trend. Every good QB manages the game. Some do it better than others, and then there's those guys who can stink all game but clutch out a win in the end. And winning is truly all that really matters in football.
Excellent example with Montana. MSR. I was going to use the same example. Most folks do not remember any of those four turnovers by Montana, but The Catch is celebrated every year.
It's not how you start that really matters, but how you finish.
IIRC, Montana was throwing that ball away and Clark just made an awesome catch out of it
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Montana has never really cleared up his intention iirc. The play was intended for Solomon to be the 1st option but Clark was supposed to be in line with him deeper. Montana has admitted he couldn't see Clark and Walsh said he thought it was a throwaway at the time. But Clark was where he was supposed to be as a backup plan. Probably the most accurate thing would be to say Montana was OK with either result rather than Too Tall pounding him.
yeah I really don't know, I just remember something about Montana saying a while after the game that he was throwing it away... but my memory sux so...
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
It was definitely a play they practiced, but that doesn't answer the question. Walsh also said he thought Montana was throwing it away and started to call another play.
Used to be, back when everyone thought Clowney was a relevant topic
I get that, but I figure the rest of Joe Cool's career pretty much confirmed that you could argue a case for it. It wasn't like that was the only clutch moment for Montana, all things considered.
Either way, that's what makes the NFL so great. Moments like that one on a big stage, where inches and seconds are so important. We are still chatting about one play 33 years later.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Oh absolutely. Frankly I think it was a very smart "oh ****" moment. He got rid of it knowing the play but unable to see the player and was under serious duress. I suspect he has never come out and said definitively "I was throwing to Clark" because it wasn't clear in his own mind...which was still a brilliant play and as you say one of many clutch moments from Montana.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
JD is as good as done, so this is a meandering topic thread now.
We'll if there's anyone who knows what a strawman argument is its you.
What are these QB heroics you speak of?
Wilson name shouldn't be in the same sentence as Montana.
Maybe you should give your list of what all kind of QBs there are. There elite, there's game managers and what else?
That's what I remember. I think Solomon was the primary target and Montana tossed it, high, in that direction, thinking if Freddie can't get to it no one else will either. One of the Cowboy defenders (Everson Walls?) confessed that he didn't even think it was catchable so he didn't make a play on it. Then Dwight Clark freakin' came out of nowhere and snagged it.
Clowney saved the Texans from wasting 1/1 on a quarterback. His work here is done.
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