JaDeveon Clowney

[Lucky]

N
Till finally, 5 years later we change the QB did we fix every one of those issues. Not probowlers at every position mind you, but decent NFL starters.

Take David Carr out of the equation. Was that team going to the playoffs at anytime during those 5 years under Casserly & Capers? No. I get blaming David Carr and his selection for everything that went wrong with the early Texans teams. But, he was a symptom of the disease. Not the disease.

 

[JB]

My only point, before we started arguing less important points of my argument, is that we're still looking for a QB that can take us to the Super Bowl & Jacksonville is wasting their time if they think Bortles can get them there.

Your basing that on is rookie season surrounded by a few rookies, a terrible OC and not much else on that team?

 

[thunderkyss]

The goal is to win the Super Bowl, & I think that's what everyone keeps forgetting. O'Brien did not believe Bortles could lead his team to a Super Bowl. If he had, we wouldn't have passed on him. No one would pass on a QB they believe can win a Super Bowl.

So by that logic, OB believes that Fitzpatrick, Mallett and Savage are capable of winning a SB?

I wanted to address this statement one more time.

"by that logic"... I said OB wouldn't have passed on Bortles if he thought he could win a Super Bowl, then you bring up Savage. A guy OB passed on four times. He passed on Savage & took Clowney. He passed on Savage & took XSF. He passed on Savage & took CJ Fiedorowicz. He passed on Savage & took Nix... how is that the same logic?

We passed on Mallett until he got him just before the season started for a 7th rounder in the draft after next. How is that the same logic?

 

[Lucky]

Your basing that on is rookie season surrounded by a few rookies, a terrible OC and not much else on that team?

And a #2 overall pick at LT that may already be a bust. Of course high picks that bust at positions other than QB never hurt the team. Unless that bust pick gets your high pick at QB killed.

 

[infantrycak]

You can't be serious.

Sure can.

 

[thunderkyss]

Take David Carr out of the equation. Was that team going to the playoffs at anytime during those 5 years under Casserly & Capers? No. I get blaming David Carr and his selection for everything that went wrong with the early Texans teams. But, he was a symptom of the disease. Not the disease.

It's hard to say. Casserly & Capers spent so much time trying to fix their QB who knows? Capers & Fangio weren't bad coaches.

 

[infantrycak]

It's hard to say. Casserly & Capers spent so much time trying to fix their QB who knows? Capers & Fangio weren't bad coaches.

Carr had nothing to do with the fact they couldn't put a decent defense together. Here they were bad coaches.

 

[JB]

I wanted to address this statement one more time.

"by that logic"... I said OB wouldn't have passed on Bortles if he thought he could win a Super Bowl, then you bring up Savage. A guy OB passed on four times. He passed on Savage & took Clowney. He passed on Savage & took XSF. He passed on Savage & took CJ Fiedorowicz. He passed on Savage & took Nix... how is that the same logic?

We passed on Mallett until he got him just before the season started for a 7th rounder in the draft after next. How is that the same logic?

No, your statement was that OB did't think Bortles could win him a SB so he passed on him. I pointed out that using that logic he must have thought the QB's he had could have.

Just because he didn't think that Bortles wasn't the best pick for the Texans at 1-1, doesn't mean he didn't like Bortles.

 

[thunderkyss]

No, your statement was that OB did't think Bortles could win him a SB so he passed on him. I pointed out that using that logic he must have thought the QB's he had could have.

Which QB do we have that he didn't pass on? He passed on Savage 4 times. He passed on Mallett for months.

He didn't pass on Fitz... but there was a different dynamic there.

 

[thunderkyss]

Carr had nothing to do with the fact they couldn't put a decent defense together. Here they were bad coaches.

& they left here & became good coaches again. Carr may not have been the reason they couldn't put together a decent defense, but those were two good coaches. They were good coaches before they got here & they were good coaches when they left.

 

[Marcus]

Nobody is going to cough up a middle round pick for damaged goods. It's more like at what point to cut him that has the least amount of impact to the cap.

Adding to the "poor prognosis" aspect of the injury/surgery itself, there is also the question of how committed he will be in his rehab. We're not talking about Brian Cushing anymore.

Agreed on the damaged goods.

Tell me more about your knowledge of Clowney's work ethic. From everything I heard abuut Clowney at training camp was that he's a hard worker.

Just a gut feeling, I suppose, which I fully admit ain't worth a hill of beans. But it's reasonable to at least assume that Clowney himself has been made aware won't ever be the player that was projected to be, and that he's "damaged goods". You add the fact that his leg will immobilized for so long, that he will have to rehab a "dead leg" back to where he can walk again, much less back into football playing condition, and then add on likelyhood that he will miss the entire 2015 season, again knowing full well that he won't be the same player even if he does all that?

I hope he's strong enough mentally to persevere through of all that. Nothing would make me happier.

 

[JB]

Which QB do we have that he didn't pass on? He passed on Savage 4 times. He passed on Mallett for months.

He didn't pass on Fitz... but there was a different dynamic there.

Value means nothing then?

Eat your argumentative wheaties this morning?

 

[JB]

& they left here & became good coaches again. Carr may not have been the reason they couldn't put together a decent defense, but those were two good coaches. They were good coaches before they got here & they were good coaches when they left.

Everyone knew Capers was a good DC, a good HC not so much

 

[Norg]

Whats, the latest on clowney were was, he born and we're did he grow up ......????

Shouldn't he be in like in Tibet right now in rehab zen and going over books and books of football schemes and racks play book ....???

I guess he will be off the radar for a few months

 

[thunderkyss]

Value means nothing then?

Exactly, now you're seeing what I'm saying.

Next year, I predict you will see Zack Mettenberger & Blake Bortles perform about the same against the exact same schedule. They're basically the same QB. What Blake losses in Arm strength, he makes up for in athleticism.

Both QBs were drafted last season.

Is Mariota a better prospect than Mettenberger?

Is Mariota a better prospect than Bortles?

The answer is yes to both questions, but the Jags would not draft Mariota or Winston (also a better prospect) because they screwed the "value" thing all to hell.

Which is all I'm saying about us having Clowney instead of Bortles. If either guy falls to us, there's nothing stoping us from drafting him.

 

[infantrycak]

I said OB wouldn't have passed on Bortles if he thought he could win a Super Bowl

And your assertion fails right there. That's a fan thing. NFL coaches know it's a team sport and the QB is one piece. Lesser QB needs a stronger team, see Dilfer. Passing on Bortles doesn't mean they didn't think he couldn't win a SB. It just meant they thought Clowney added more to the team.

 

[JB]

And your assertion fails right there. That's a fan thing. NFL coaches know it's a team sport and the QB is one piece. Lesser QB needs a stronger team, see Dilfer. Passing on Bortles doesn't mean they didn't think he couldn't win a SB. It just meant they thought Clowney added more to the team.

Exactly!

 

[thunderkyss]

And your assertion fails right there. That's a fan thing. NFL coaches know it's a team sport and the QB is one piece. Lesser QB needs a stronger team, see Dilfer. Passing on Bortles doesn't mean they didn't think he couldn't win a SB. It just meant they thought Clowney added more to the team.

So now you're saying you can find a franchise QB in the 4th? No need to be drafting them in the first?

 

[JB]

Exactly, now you're seeing what I'm saying.

Next year, I predict you will see Zack Mettenberger & Blake Bortles perform about the same against the exact same schedule. They're basically the same QB. What Blake losses in Arm strength, he makes up for in athleticism.

Both QBs were drafted last season.

Is Mariota a better prospect than Mettenberger?

Is Mariota a better prospect than Bortles?

The answer is yes to both questions, but the Jags would not draft Mariota or Winston (also a better prospect) because they screwed the "value" thing all to hell.

Which is all I'm saying about us having Clowney instead of Bortles. If either guy falls to us, there's nothing stoping us from drafting him.

How can you make the assertion that Mariota will be a better qb than either?

 

[thunderkyss]

How can you make the assertion that Mariota will be a better qb than either?

Before we start another round of arguing... can you show me were I asserted as much? In the mean time, I'll got eat my argumentative wheaties.

 

[steelbtexan]

Take David Carr out of the equation. Was that team going to the playoffs at anytime during those 5 years under Casserly & Capers? No. I get blaming David Carr and his selection for everything that went wrong with the early Texans teams. But, he was a symptom of the disease. Not the disease.

Unfortunately that disease continued throughout much of the Kubiak yrs.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

That one season is where you're getting your evidence?

My evidence that we don't need to have Clowney on the edge to have a good defense? Yeah, sure. Why not? Is our defense going to be significantly impacted next year if Clowney doesn't show up? Not so much.

This isn't the old days where a top pick got so much cash that he single-handedly wrecked the cap. If Clowney doesn't develop and we don't get anything out of him, we move on immediately.

 

[infantrycak]

So now you're saying you can find a franchise QB in the 4th?

I've never said anything different so there is no "now" to it. I have said, and it remains true, that your odds are better the higher you draft someone.

No need to be drafting them in the first?

Totally different question. Depends on circumstances. If you have a guy like the Pats then you have the luxury of playing with the lower odds. If you need a starter now, the odds say it's foolishness.

 

[JB]

Before we start another round of arguing... can you show me were I asserted as much? In the mean time, I'll got eat my argumentative wheaties.

Is Mariota a better prospect than Mettenberger?

Is Mariota a better prospect than Bortles?

The answer is yes to both questions

Close enough?

 

[thunderkyss]

Close enough?

No.

He's a better prospect than either. That's a fact. That is not the same as saying he'll be a better QB.

 

[JB]

No.

He's a better prospect than either. That's a fact. That is not the same as saying he'll be a better QB.

yeah that makes no sense, what is he going to be better at, cornerback?

Your fact is not a universally accepted fact by any means. Actually it's no more than an opinion

 

[thunderkyss]

yeah that makes no sense, what is he going to be better at, cornerback?

Your fact is not a universally accepted fact by any means. Actually it's no more than an opinion

So you're saying if you had your pick, you'd just as soon pick Bortles as Mariota? Or Mettenberger?

 

[JB]

So you're saying if you had your pick, you'd just as soon pick Bortles as Mariota? Or Mettenberger?

No, I'm trying to figure out what you're saying


edit: Of the three though, I think Bortles may have the highest ceiling

edit again: I wouldn't have picked any of them at 1-1

I'd take the route that OB is doing or try to trade for a veteran that has proved himself

 

[thunderkyss]

edit: Of the three though, I think Bortles may have the highest ceiling

edit again: I wouldn't have picked any of them at 1-1

Interesting. I never would have thought that.

IMO the things that kept Bortles from being a high 1st round pick was that he didn't play in a pro system, he didn't play in a major football conference, I wasn't wild about his mechanics, I didn't think his arm was particularly strong, & he had only "really" been starting for 2 years. Going back a final year & playing at a high level now that UCF were the big dog on that little campus, would have been very interesting.

IMO, Mariota is an upgrade in every aspect, except he doesn't run a pro system either (& Bortles may actually have had more responsibilities in his).

 

[JB]

Interesting. I never would have thought that.

IMO the things that kept Bortles from being a high 1st round pick was that he didn't play in a pro system, he didn't play in a major football conference, I wasn't wild about his mechanics, I didn't think his arm was particularly strong, & he had only "really" been starting for 2 years. Going back a final year & playing at a high level now that UCF were the big dog on that little campus, would have been very interesting.

IMO, Mariota is an upgrade in every aspect, except he doesn't run a pro system either (& Bortles may actually have had more responsibilities in his).

umm didn't Bortles go #3 overall?

 

[thunderkyss]

umm didn't Bortles go #3 overall?

Yes, I think that was a mistake. & that's what I meant, what kept me from grading him as a high first round pick...

 

[JB]

Yes, I think that was a mistake. & that's what I meant, what kept me from grading him as a high first round pick...

ohhh

your grade

lol

I thought you were talking about what actual football people thought

 

[thunderkyss]

ohhh

your grade

lol

I thought you were talking about what actual football people thought

So you're going to tell me JFF is a better prospect than Teddy Bridgewater & Derek Carr?

 

[JB]

So you're going to tell me JFF is a better prospect than Teddy Bridgewater & Derek Carr?

How did Manziel or Carr enter this discussion?

 

[thunderkyss]

How did Manziel or Carr enter this discussion?

If you're going to suggest that actual "football people" don't make mistakes, I'm going to point to an example showing otherwise.

 

[infantrycak]

If you're going to suggest that actual "football people" don't make mistakes, I'm going to point to an example showing otherwise.

You're pointing to Cleveland as actual football people?

 

[thunderkyss]

You're pointing to Cleveland as actual football people?

He was using Jacksonville...

 

[JB]

He was using Jacksonville...

I was quoting you

 

[thunderkyss]

I was quoting you

Well hell, that's not very smart.

 

[JB]

Well hell, that's not very smart.

lol

Made me laugh for the first time all day

 

[Runner]

Right now, I know there are some that are arguing, "that's ok!! He's better than what we got." but that's very short sited. For the next six years, the Jags will waste their time thinking they've got a shot. They may even get close... if only, if only. Hopefully he'll get them close enough they'll waste another six years.

You make that same mistake with a QB, and you're not making the playoffs for a few years.

I've been out all day. I missed a lot of activity.

So basically the reason the Texans shouldn't draft a high round, highly graded quarterback because if he isn't "The Man" O'Brien won't be able to identify that and correct it in as many as 6 to 12 years.

Again, it appears I have more confidence in the Texans coaches than the people who consider themselves very positive supporters. Interesting.

 

[mussop]

Sure can.

Then you don't know what you are talking about. The field at our stadium has been the topic of discussion because of the way it's put together. There's been many complaints.

In fact


“I definitely think they need to do something about it. We like the grass, but I think there definitely could be a better way to put the grass down,” D.J. Swearinger told ESPN Radio. “When we go out there for walk-through, somedays we may see a hole and we ask coach ‘What’s going on today? Can they fix this?'”

NRG stadium uses a pallet system to install the grass field. The field is installed with a series of rectangular pallets all pieced together to create a full sized football field.

“They use these square trays, and we see seams when we are up in the stands. There are 1,400 of those trays that make up that field. So think about it. You have four seams for every square don’t you. There are 5,000 seams on that field. That is more than you ever had on an Astroturf field. And didn’t we always hear about the seams on the Astroturf fields?” Egdorf told SportsRadio 610.


And


“The turf down there is terrible,” Bill Belichick told Boston’s WEEI-FM the day after Wes Welker tore his ACL at then Reliant Stadium. “It’s terrible. It’s just inconsistent. It’s all the little trays of grass and some of them are soft and some of them are firm and they don’t all fit well together, those seams… Some of it feels like a sponge, some of it feels real firm and hard like the Miami surface. One step you’re on one, the other step you’re on another. I really think it’s one of the worst fields I’ve seen.”


And

The condition of the Texans field has been an on-air topic on multiple occasion. Al Michaels and Cris Collinsworth have commented about it on Sunday night football. Tony Dungy, the former Colts head coach who used to have his team play on the surface, has also commented publicly on it before.

“Everybody except SMG, Mr. McNair and infantrycak seem to recognize it.”



This is not a grass vs turf discussion. Therefore you are wrong.

 

[ObsiWan]

Only time and game day performance will answer any of these "theories"....

so if you'll excuse me, I'm going to visit the Babe of the Day thread.

 

[Marshall]

Like who?

JFF?

 

[Marshall]

I've made no secret of the fact that I think Bortles would have been a good first pick and had a good chance at being the quarterback this team has been looking for. I also understand there is a group of people here who think we are moving into the third straight draft where there is no Texans quality quarterback available (unless they draft a fourth rounder, who suddenly gains all the potential in the world).

However, we were having a little fun on the thread so I'll leave the topic at that. You may now go on to present the oft-repeated arguments* of why drafting high round quarterbacks is dumb.


*if someone would like to re-present the case that Clowney on IR is better for the Texans than a healthy Bortles, please do so. It is one of my favorites and more in line with light-hearted turn this thread had taken.

I think many forget that Savage was originally expected to be a mid to high second before falling late, so he's not a typical 4th round supplemental pick.

 

[infantrycak]

Then you don't know what you are talking about. The field at our stadium has been the topic of discussion because of the way it's put together. There's been many complaints.

No but there is a thread on the subject if you want to discuss it further.

 

[mussop]

No but there is a thread on the subject if you want to discuss it further.

Nothing to discuss. I made a statement. You tried to correct me but because you took it out of context your attempt was off base. My original point was valid. The field sucks and needs to be changed.

 

[Marshall]

So now you're saying you can find a franchise QB in the 4th? No need to be drafting them in the first?

Franchise QBs are no guarantee of a Superbowl and it doesn't take a franchise QB to win a Superbowl.

 

[htownfan32]

Man, I appreciate CND's insight, but it's just flat out saddening sometimes.

Also, I don't think any of us that didn't really want Clowney (I was among them but I warmed up to the pick in the following days) can say that it was the "wrong" pick at the time. Did any of us see this coming? If you say yes, you're either gifted with foresight and clairvoyance or just lying.

And at that position, I can safely say the only other "correct" thing to do would have been to trade down. I don't think there was a clear choice at 1-1, though I would have been okay with Khalil Mack, Sammy Watkins, or Mike Evans (homer pick). To this day I'm still more mad that we whiffed on Garoppolo and Bridgewater by waiting a few picks too late in both cases.

 

[Marshall]

I've been out all day. I missed a lot of activity.

So basically the reason the Texans shouldn't draft a high round, highly graded quarterback because if he isn't "The Man" O'Brien won't be able to identify that and correct it in as many as 6 to 12 years.

Again, it appears I have more confidence in the Texans coaches than the people who consider themselves very positive supporters. Interesting.

I suspect that if either Winston or Mariota are there at 16, we'll take them even with their high risk of being busts. But I suspect they will not be there. But you don't ignore other great players and reach for a QB which is what many are suggesting. We are not in desperate need of QBs. We have several capable of managing this team and most have upside potential. And we get no more if we reach for a lessor QB with our first pick.