Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍

JaDeveon Clowney

Status
Not open for further replies.
CloakNNNdagger said:
I am hearing more and more comments by media and fans saying or implying that Clowney's return and subsequent performance will prove his commitment and effort he places in his rehab. This again unfairly places his success or failure directly back onto his shoulders. In other words, it will be his lack of commitment and effort by which he will be judged, if the end results are not favorable. Sorry to say, though, but the nature/extent of the injury, the "timeliness" or not of the diagnosis and treatment, and the limitations of ANY of these less than perfect procedures (microfracture surgery plus or minus stem cell or any other adjunct known to date) that may have been performed will independently be more the basis for the determination of his future. There are many, many more disappointing long-term results and failures following this type of injury and any microfracture variant than there are results that reflect a "miracle recovery." Let's not be too quick to judge Clowney if things do not turn out the way we would rather they did.
Click to expand...

They were just talking about this on the radio. They said this mentality was advanced by Rick Smith in an article that John McClain just wrote.

My first thought was that Rick Smith is already in CYA mode to save his own job. If Clowney never sees the field again, the on-going narrative will be because he didn't work hard enough in rehab. That's a chump move by Smith, imo. Bush league stuff.
 
Double Barrel said:
They were just talking about this on the radio. They said this mentality was advanced by Rick Smith in an article that John McClain just wrote.

My first thought was that Rick Smith is already in CYA mode to save his own job. If Clowney never sees the field again, the on-going narrative will be because he didn't work hard enough in rehab. That's a chump move by Smith, imo. Bush league stuff.
Click to expand...

The bolded makes me think that RS probably made an innocuous statement alluding to the fact that Clowney's future his up to him. McClain put a spin on it to make it controversial.
 
Double Barrel said:
They were just talking about this on the radio. They said this mentality was advanced by Rick Smith in an article that John McClain just wrote.

My first thought was that Rick Smith is already in CYA mode to save his own job. If Clowney never sees the field again, the on-going narrative will be because he didn't work hard enough in rehab. That's a chump move by Smith, imo. Bush league stuff.
Click to expand...

That would imply that Smith's ass had a responsibility that requires covering.
 
JB said:
The bolded makes me think that RS probably made an innocuous statement alluding to the fact that Clowney's future his up to him. McClain put a spin on it to make it controversial.
Click to expand...

But is his future truly up to Clowney if there is a medical problem that rehab cannot fix? He could be the hardest working man in football, but a bum knee is a bum knee. I think that is the implication of it all. This might be something that cannot be fixed to the standard required to play pro football.

You're right about McClain, though, so gotta' be wary to put too much stock into anything he writes/says.
 
Double Barrel said:
But is his future truly up to Clowney if there is a medical problem that rehab cannot fix? He could be the hardest working man in football, but a bum knee is a bum knee. I think that is the implication of it all. This might be something that cannot be fixed to the standard required to play pro football.

You're right about McClain, though, so gotta' be wary to put too much stock into anything he writes/says.
Click to expand...

Hopefully if it's a medical condition that prevents Clowney from coming back as he should, it won't take the Texans 3 years to realize that aka Bosselli and Spencer
 
JB said:
Hopefully if it's a medical condition that prevents Clowney from coming back as he should, it won't take the Texans 3 years to realize that aka Bosselli and Spencer
Click to expand...

I really need to stop reading about the Clowney thing. It's downright depressing to suffer through a 2-14 season and have this happen to your 1.1 pick. A team (and fanbase) earns that pick by crawling through one helluva' crappy season, much like Andy Dufresne escaping Shawshank prison through the sewage system.

I need to start maintaining the mentality that Clowney was never a Texan, and if he works out in the end, it's a bonus. Otherwise, banish it from my thought process. I'm getting no positive vibes from this story.
 
Double Barrel said:
This might be the most depressing thread ever on Texans Talk. :(
Click to expand...
It is very bad news.

PapaL said:
So if we take another OLB in the first round this year, will this board melt down?
Click to expand...
That would be the prudent choice after this news, imo.

HOU-TEX said:
Can't be upset with Clowney...
Click to expand...
Yep, he just wanted to play pro ball. It's a shame.

badboy said:
Caught just a few seconds tonight of radio 610 playing a bit from a physician named David (did not get last name) who said the type of surgery Clowney got while new did not often result in growth and as he was "bone on bone" future surgery probable and long term health prognosis not good. This was not a call in fan but someone commenting on Clowney. FWIW
Click to expand...

thunderkyss said:
I think they said his name was Dr. David Chow...Dr. David Chao
Click to expand...

Correct in his statement that, "It does not bode well for the long term." I find it curious he found the need to interject the gratuitous pumping up of Dr. Lowe and the Texans medical staff?

Also, then there's this...
65vmtk.jpg

If "we" could regrow articular cartilage we wouldn't need microfracture surgery and the like to attempt to replace it. At least he understands/emphasizes that microfracture is a salvage, not curative, procedure?


disaacks3 said:
They had Dr. First on 610 this morning (http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/12/11/the-best-of-the-worst-of-in-the-loop-112/) and he had several "bold" statements...
Click to expand...

Muuuch better presentation.... quoted an unqualified NFL study that 9 out of 61 players played for 5 years.

Question is, at what level of play??? Obviously will be significantly reduced.

Other highlights...

And therein is the problem ...it does not turn into that shiny ice-like cartilage like you see on a chicken bone, it's more like white stuff that's straw/fibrous like -- it's not the same. and so it does not hold up the same.
Click to expand...

Recovery mandates: zero/never/zilch weight on that knee for 8 weeks. And spending 8 hours a day in a machine that moves your knee.
Click to expand...

Educated guess is the meniscus injury was of the type that could not be repaired.
Click to expand...
If they knew he had this problem, he wouldn't be your #1 pick.. I feel bad for the Texans... we seem to be snakebit when it comes to injuries...
Click to expand...

The $64,000.00 question is...

Was there any other medically investigative options available to the team's medical staff that might have unearthed this problem before we drafted him...

Or could his history have indicated a higher propensity to incur this or similar or other types of career threatening injury?
 
Double Barrel said:
I really need to stop reading about the Clowney thing. It's downright depressing to suffer through a 2-14 season and have this happen to your 1.1 pick. A team (and fanbase) earns that pick by crawling through one helluva' crappy season, much like Andy Dufresne escaping Shawshank prison through the sewage system.

I need to start maintaining the mentality that Clowney was never a Texan, and if he works out in the end, it's a bonus. Otherwise, banish it from my thought process. I'm getting no positive vibes from this story.
Click to expand...

I hear ya man! Just think of the great 2015 draft class we already have on the roster :swatter:
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I am hearing more and more comments by media and fans saying or implying that Clowney's return and subsequent performance will prove his commitment and effort he places in his rehab. This again unfairly places his success or failure directly back onto his shoulders. In other words, it will be his lack of commitment and effort by which he will be judged, if the end results are not favorable. Sorry to say, though, but the nature/extent of the injury, the "timeliness" or not of the diagnosis and treatment, and the limitations of ANY of these less than perfect procedures (microfracture surgery plus or minus stem cell or any other adjunct known to date) that may have been performed will independently be more the basis for the determination of his future. There are many, many more disappointing long-term results and failures following this type of injury and any microfracture variant than there are results that reflect a "miracle recovery." Let's not be too quick to judge Clowney if things do not turn out the way we would rather they did.
Click to expand...
Excellent post.
Please let's not be so quick to point an accusatory finger at Clowney if his body doesn't respond as quickly or completely to these medical "fixes" as "Player X" did back whenever.
 
Double Barrel said:
I really need to stop reading about the Clowney thing. It's downright depressing to suffer through a 2-14 season and have this happen to your 1.1 pick. A team (and fanbase) earns that pick by crawling through one helluva' crappy season, much like Andy Dufresne escaping Shawshank prison through the sewage system.

I need to start maintaining the mentality that Clowney was never a Texan, and if he works out in the end, it's a bonus. Otherwise, banish it from my thought process. I'm getting no positive vibes from this story.
Click to expand...
Beat me to it as nothing to gain by agonizing on fault or different picks or etc. Can't miss what you never had unless you just want to fantasize. Win out this season and we all are excited again.
 
JB said:
The bolded makes me think that RS probably made an innocuous statement alluding to the fact that Clowney's future his up to him. McClain put a spin on it to make it controversial.
Click to expand...

It's spin from the radio guys. Here's the relevant portion of the article:

It was a disappointing rookie season for Clowney. He had surgery to repair a sports hernia in June, got a concussion in August and then suffered the knee injury.

“It’s not about how disappointed everybody is,” Smith said. “It’s about how diligent he is in the rehab process. He’s committed to it.

“That’s something he can control, and he’s committed to showing he’s going to do everything in his power to come back and to be better than ever.”
Click to expand...

Link
 
Double Barrel said:
But is his future truly up to Clowney if there is a medical problem that rehab cannot fix? He could be the hardest working man in football, but a bum knee is a bum knee. I think that is the implication of it all. This might be something that cannot be fixed to the standard required to play pro football.

You're right about McClain, though, so gotta' be wary to put too much stock into anything he writes/says.
Click to expand...

See Cushing as an example of the above.
 
610 had someone on at lunch that said because of his age Clowney may only get 4-5 good years after the surgery. As long as he is highly productive throughout the remainder of his contract ... I will take it.
 
infantrycak said:
“It’s not about how disappointed everybody is,” Smith said. “It’s about how diligent he is in the rehab process. He’s committed to it.

“That’s something he can control, and he’s committed to showing he’s going to do everything in his power to come back and to be better than ever.”
Click to expand...


The outcomes of microfracture are poor and worse. Diligence, commitment, 'try-hard" can't fix that.

Coming back "better than ever" ain't happening -- why even say that?


http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2430118#post2430118
 
Incredible. So even if it is a "success" he likely won't play next year, or play sparingly and then have about a 4 year career at a lower level after that?

"Productive" isn't good enough for the first overall pick. He has to be excellent to great for the pick to be good.

Colts' Cherilus on Texans' Clowney: 'He's screwed'

Perhaps you've heard about the microfracture knee surgery Clowney underwent this week. Well, Cherilus has actually experienced it.

And he's not optimistic about Clowney coming back.

Link Here
 
Playoffs said:
The outcomes of microfracture are poor and worse. Diligence, commitment, 'try-hard" can't fix that.

Coming back "better than ever" ain't happening -- why even say that?


http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2430118#post2430118
Click to expand...

Thanks for providing something I knew. Makes no difference to what he said. A GM, HC or owner is never (sorry Runner - hyperbole exception invoked) going to walk out and say what is precisely correct - well if he does everything on his part correct then there is a 40% chance at all he makes it back and of that a 10% chance he makes it back to 100% so all y'all please dedicate your wishbone wishes that the 2% chance he may be the player he could have been pans out.

Damn, put your new shower shoes on, talk about giving the team 110% and stop over-analyzing every little thing.
 
thetexanator said:
this clowney thing is gunna set us back another 2 yrs. next year we got no qb, no corners, a linebacker playing safety, dbrown declining, cushing hurt, one receiver, no te's. jj watt and a sack of crrr. :kubepalm: clowney comes back late next yr, then doesnt play well, then everyone says yu cant come back in 1st yr. so clowney gets free pass until 2016 when we find out the knee never healed like it was supposed to.:kubepalm:
Click to expand...

Yeah, but the WORST part is, it's only a matter of time before Watt returns to Asgard to take up his father's throne.

Then we're really screwed.
 
Playoffs said:
The outcomes of microfracture are poor and worse. Diligence, commitment, 'try-hard" can't fix that.

Coming back "better than ever" ain't happening -- why even say that?
Click to expand...

That was the 610 afternoon guys' point, that implying that Clowney can come back better if he just works hard points the finger back at Clowney if he is unable to recover.

Was that Smith's intention? Probably not (like 'cak said, most likely just "GM speak"). But, at the same time, we all know the media and fans look directly at the GM when a first overall pick fails or busts out. Right or wrong, that's just the way things are in today's world.
 
thunderkyss said:
anything stopping him from getting the OATs procedure if he's not happy with where he is a year from now?
Click to expand...

The OAT procedure can be performed following a failed microfracture surgery. The problem is progression of focal lesions and degenerative changes associated with the natural history of focal cartilage defects lends itself to having to address larger areas. This fact with the possibility that the microfracture surgery itself has promoted additional loss of perimeter articular cartilage and the decrease or loss of bone circulation (which would lessen the ability for the OAT grafts to take). Even though some surgeons will attempt to use 4 cms as the maximum area of defect for which they will attempt the surgery, because of significant drop off of success at the >2 cm limit (just as in the case of microfracture surgery), most have learned to use the latter number as the upper limit.

With that said, if OAT salvage is even a consideration, it will not be performed for at least 12-18 months.........leaving availability in parts or all of 2015 in question.
 
If Rick Smith is now saying that Clowney's injury was an undetected injury pre-draft I believe there is a very strong possibility he's doing so to shift blame away from the NRG grass field. McNair and Co could be trying to avoid any future litigation. Good chance there could be lawyers....
 
Texian said:
If Rick Smith is now saying that Clowney's injury was an undetected injury pre-draft I believe there is a very strong possibility he's doing so to shift blame away from the NRG grass field. McNair and Co could be trying to avoid any future litigation. Good chance there could be lawyers....
Click to expand...

Provide an iota of proof.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Dr. First made it very clear that microfracture surgery is "extremely controversial" at best.

This is a well-controlled study that should give you an idea of why I have also advocated this view.:

LINK

Performance level following microfracture was found to be inferior at 1 year post procedure..........and to be declining each year thereafter.
Click to expand...

Why would they opt for microfracture over OATS? What would the benefit be?
 
Brisco_County said:
Why would they opt for microfracture over OATS? What would the benefit be?
Click to expand...

I can't say for sure other than to say, the former is an extremely simple and less invasive surgery, whereas the latter is more invasive and a much more technically involved technically sensitive procedure. Another possibility is that the area of cartilage loss was greater than the 2cm dimension ideal for the procedures.........Since microfracture already carries such a low success rate to begin with, the potential difference between potential degree for success and failure trying to address a defect greater than 2cms would be much less detrimental to the prognosis than what might be created by trying to apply the OAT procedure (with its significantly better prognosis to begin with) to areas greater than 2cms. Furthermore, if in truth the area was too large to meet the maximum recommended dimension (2cms), there can be a lack of adequate non weight-bearing donor bone/cartilage for the plugs necessary to fill the defect. Another possibility does exist that I would not wish to even post, as it would reflect a point of view of great cynicism.
 
Last edited:
Texian said:
If Rick Smith is now saying that Clowney's injury was an undetected injury pre-draft I believe there is a very strong possibility he's doing so to shift blame away from the NRG grass field. McNair and Co could be trying to avoid any future litigation. Good chance there could be lawyers....
Click to expand...

That could never happen
 
So Clowney has more than a 2cmm loss of cartilage? That means less chance of a full recovery? Great !!!!!
 
Double Barrell is spot on . . . This is probably the most depressing, exasperating, and downright maddening thread on Texas Talk.

Nobody wants to say it, but I'll say it. His playing days are over.

Clowney's career ended when he stepped into that "hole" on opening day. They can all talk the good talk about reversing a bone-on-bone condition, but he is done. Even if he does do all the right things in his rehab, his explosion will never come back.
 
Marcus said:
Double Barrell is spot on . . . This is probably the most depressing, exasperating, and downright maddening thread on Texas Talk.

Nobody wants to say it, but I'll say it. His playing days are over.

Clowney's career ended when he stepped into that "hole" on opening day. They can all talk the good talk about reversing a bone-on-bone condition, but he is done. Even if he does do all the right things in his rehab, his explosion will never come back.
Click to expand...

Yep. That surgery was/is the beginning of the end for Clowney.
 
Texian said:
Colts OT: Jadeveon Clowney 'screwed' after surgery

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...ey-screwed-after-surgery?campaign=Twitter_atl
Click to expand...

From that link:

"He's screwed," Indianapolis Colts right tackle Gosder Cherilus said of Clowney, per The Indy Star. "His game is all about explosion. That's a problem. I'm out there dancing. I'm an offensive lineman. That's a different ballgame. He's screwed. I'm just being honest."
Click to expand...

Well, isn't he a bundle of sunshine? Who knew our own Doc Jean was moonlighting as an NFL tackle? :D

(just teasing Doc!)
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I can't say for sure other than to say, the former is an extremely simple and less invasive surgery, whereas the latter is more invasive and a much more technically involved technically sensitive procedure. Another possibility is that the area of cartilage loss was greater than the 2cm dimension ideal for the procedures.........Since microfracture already carries such a low success rate to begin with, the potential difference between potential degree for success and failure trying to address a defect greater than 2cms would be much less detrimental to the prognosis than what might be created by trying to apply the OAT procedure (with its significantly better prognosis to begin with) to areas greater than 2cms. Furthermore, if in truth the area was too large to meet the maximum recommended dimension (2cms), there can be a lack of adequate non weight-bearing donor bone/cartilage for the plugs necessary to fill the defect. Another possibility does exist that I would not wish to even post, as it would reflect a point of view of great cynicism.
Click to expand...

Just to confirm:

1) We don't know for certain if the cartilage loss was greater than 2 cm, but the type of procedure chosen has suggested that.

2) No matter what enhanced microfracture technique they use, the regrown cartilage will still be fibrocartilage.

If both of those points are true, I'll be convinced that any optimism expressed by the FO about Clowney's recovery is simply consolation for fans and for a poor kid whose NFL dream is likely over.
 
Brisco_County said:
Just to confirm:

1) We don't know for certain if the cartilage loss was greater than 2 cm, but the type of procedure chosen has suggested that.

2) No matter what enhanced microfracture technique they use, the regrown cartilage will still be fibrocartilage.

If both of those points are true, I'll be convinced that any optimism expressed by the FO about Clowney's recovery is simply consolation for fans and for a poor kid whose NFL dream is likely over.
Click to expand...

Any negativism expressed by the FO about Clowney's recovery could affect ticket sales. So there is that.
 
kingtexan said:
Until this kid does anything, I would rather talk about who is actually on the field.

Clowney? Who cares ...
Click to expand...

I actually agree with you here.


As much as we can beat the dead....clown.. into the ground, it's time to move on. When and IF Clowney can come back, then we can engage in healthy discussions. But at this point, I feel, there is nothing productive to talk about Clowney.
 
So, Clowney's out for the season. It appears Mercilus will be out foe the Colts game. We're going to roll into Indy with Reed, Simon and Ankrah as our OLBs. lol

I actually like Simon, but good grief.
 
Brisco_County said:
Just to confirm:

1) We don't know for certain if the cartilage loss was greater than 2 cm, but the type of procedure chosen has suggested that.

The key is that we don't know for sure. You asked me why they chose on procedure over the other and I tried to offer possibilities. Unfortunately, I have not been blessed with a mind reader's skills.....

2) No matter what enhanced microfracture technique they use, the regrown cartilage will still be fibrocartilage.

Unless truly cultured cartilage is performed at another surgical stage, traditional microfracture surgery does not produce significant amounts of hyaline (articular) cartilage. Keep in mind that the marrow/blood material itself coming out of the microfracture drill holes is actually stem cell material.......which leads to the formation of mostly inferior (nonarticular) fibrocartilage.

If both of those points are true, I'll be convinced that any optimism expressed by the FO about Clowney's recovery is simply consolation for fans and for a poor kid whose NFL dream is likely over.
Click to expand...

If you speak to any sports medicine orthopedist you will hear that although he treats many traumatic injuries that are sustained in competition or recreational sports -for example fractured collarbones, dislocated shoulders, torn rotator cuffs that are caused from direct impact sports-more alarming, is the number of young athletes in their teens and 20's they are treating that have severe joint and cartilage damage from years of over-training and past known or occult injuries. With Clowney's long history of bone spurs (degenerative osteoarthritis) and subsequent mechanics-based injuries, I would find it difficult to believe that during the first arthroscopy, additional significant degenerative joint cartilage damage in his knee unrelated to the recent acute injury was not encountered.
Young Athletes with “Old Joints”

March 03, 2013

Studies show that athletes who train, practice, and play sports that range over the novice level, are more likely to develop Osteoarthritis than those individuals that exercise at a more moderate level. Performing in sports activities during your adolescent years can increase your susceptibility to the disease.

“Osteoarthritis Sports”

The participation in vigorous sports, such as basketball, track and field, and baseball can result in various stressors and injuries to the joints.

Dr. Klaus Siebenrock of the University of Bern in Switzerland states that Osteoarthritis of the hip is prevalent among sports enthusiast, even at the high-school level. The development of Osteoarthritis is linked to high intensity training and the physical load on the joints. Most individuals who develop Osteoarthritis are older adults, so these young athletes will have a battle as the age.

Many athletes are programmed to work through the pain.

Many coaches and sports therapist are aware that high intensity sports can cause osteoarthritis. Many times, they will suggest to the athlete that an injury will likely lead to arthritis later in life, but they do not explain in full detail what this will mean to their future health.

It is crucial that young individuals, parents, coaches, and sports therapist think realistically about the consequences of sports on osteoarthritis. This is not to say that the young athlete should bow out of their sport. This just means that they should be well aware of the dangers; they should take all injuries seriously, report them, and allow adequate healing time. If they are in any pain, it needs to be evaluated immediately. Osteoarthritis is better managed from the start, even as a preventative measure.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top