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Is O'Brien finished shaping roster?

Number19

Hall of Fame
I almost added your scenario. As a DC facing Texans doing that I would depend on my middle guys stopping David Johnson. As you say, if he gets past front 5 he could score. A good middle stops that play almost every time. I like mismatches but prefer those to be my WRs in which I believe O'Brien is counting on. I like both DJs faking a block then opening up for dumps if needed or planned; with Watson scrambling abilities I see that is best play although draws should be used frequently as a planned endeavor. This was fun exercise!
I'm going to jump in here. My assumption is that the defense has only one elite CB. If they have two, this would be ideal.

If the offense has two WR's with elite speed, in the 4.3's, you're going to need a CB on each. But you're going to have 2 safeties giving deep support. If the elite CB can cover one WR, one on one, then that frees up one safety to move up for medium support. But the defense will probably be in a dime package because you need DB's to cover the receivers in the slots. If one of those is a TE, you can be in nickle with a LB on the TE. But if that slot receiver also has good to elite speed, the CB will need help from that freed up safety.

But in all cases, you have 6 players covering 4 receivers. This leaves 5 players covering 7, five of the 7 being lineman. One of the 5 defensive players would be a LB responsible for the RB.

This leaves one safety to leave his receiver responsibility to cover the QB.

Leaving the defense in a 4 man rush covered by 5 OL'men.

Comments?
 

vtech9

Veteran
Jordan Thomas may have the ability however he definitely did not show it last season. The question for me is was his productivity based on him or our quarterback? HC play calling could have something to do with it.

Fells is our only TE that I feel comfortable with.
You do remember that Jordan Thomas was on IR most of the year, right?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I'm going to jump in here. My assumption is that the defense has only one elite CB. If they have two, this would be ideal.

If the offense has two WR's with elite speed, in the 4.3's, you're going to need a CB on each. But you're going to have 2 safeties giving deep support. If the elite CB can cover one WR, one on one, then that frees up one safety to move up for medium support. But the defense will probably be in a dime package because you need DB's to cover the receivers in the slots. If one of those is a TE, you can be in nickle with a LB on the TE. But if that slot receiver also has good to elite speed, the CB will need help from that freed up safety.

But in all cases, you have 6 players covering 4 receivers. This leaves 5 players covering 7, five of the 7 being lineman. One of the 5 defensive players would be a LB responsible for the RB.

This leaves one safety to leave his receiver responsibility to cover the QB.

Leaving the defense in a 4 man rush covered by 5 OL'men.

Comments?
This is why the offense is going to be much more dangerous this season. Plus when you factor in DJ's receiving ability things get even more advantageous. A LB cant cover DJ who's like an extra WR. (This is presuming DJ can play semi close to 2016 level. 1,000 yd rusher and 500-600 yds receiving. What would really help is if Warring/Thomas/Akins could be a seam busting TE. The offense would be unstoppable if DW4 could figure out who's open.
 

OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
I almost added your scenario. As a DC facing Texans doing that I would depend on my middle guys stopping David Johnson. As you say, if he gets past front 5 he could score. A good middle stops that play almost every time. I like mismatches but prefer those to be my WRs in which I believe O'Brien is counting on. I like both DJs faking a block then opening up for dumps if needed or planned; with Watson scrambling abilities I see that is best play although draws should be used frequently as a planned endeavor. This was fun exercise!
I think we could certainly open an independent thread on this. Let anyone throw their plays or alignments out there and other could discuss strategies as to defend or counter.
 

OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
I'm going to jump in here. My assumption is that the defense has only one elite CB. If they have two, this would be ideal.

If the offense has two WR's with elite speed, in the 4.3's, you're going to need a CB on each. But you're going to have 2 safeties giving deep support. If the elite CB can cover one WR, one on one, then that frees up one safety to move up for medium support. But the defense will probably be in a dime package because you need DB's to cover the receivers in the slots. If one of those is a TE, you can be in nickle with a LB on the TE. But if that slot receiver also has good to elite speed, the CB will need help from that freed up safety.

But in all cases, you have 6 players covering 4 receivers. This leaves 5 players covering 7, five of the 7 being lineman. One of the 5 defensive players would be a LB responsible for the RB.

This leaves one safety to leave his receiver responsibility to cover the QB.

Leaving the defense in a 4 man rush covered by 5 OL'men.

Comments?
OK, Number19.....you and Badboy have officially forced this discussion to be taken to a seperate thread. This is mind candy and would be a blast to learn from all of you. I would start this but I think either of you are much more talented to get the thread rolling. My wife and I are in movement so if this thread happens I will follow when I can.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
This is why the offense is going to be much more dangerous this season. Plus when you factor in DJ's receiving ability things get even more advantageous. A LB cant cover DJ who's like an extra WR. (This is presuming DJ can play semi close to 2016 level. 1,000 yd rusher and 500-600 yds receiving. What would really help is if Warring/Thomas/Akins could be a seam busting TE. The offense would be unstoppable if DW4 could figure out who's open.
My hope is the play called should indicate which guy should be open and #4 starts check with that guy. It could be like too many open could cause hesitation on his part.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I'm going to jump in here. My assumption is that the defense has only one elite CB. If they have two, this would be ideal.

If the offense has two WR's with elite speed, in the 4.3's, you're going to need a CB on each. But you're going to have 2 safeties giving deep support. If the elite CB can cover one WR, one on one, then that frees up one safety to move up for medium support. But the defense will probably be in a dime package because you need DB's to cover the receivers in the slots. If one of those is a TE, you can be in nickle with a LB on the TE. But if that slot receiver also has good to elite speed, the CB will need help from that freed up safety.

But in all cases, you have 6 players covering 4 receivers. This leaves 5 players covering 7, five of the 7 being lineman. One of the 5 defensive players would be a LB responsible for the RB.

This leaves one safety to leave his receiver responsibility to cover the QB.

Leaving the defense in a 4 man rush covered by 5 OL'men.

Comments?

"If one of those is a TE …."


We're screwed cause aint nobody on this roster has a clue about covering a TE.
 
I know lots of people disagree with me on this, but I am still horrified by the WR corps we are going into the season with. This is not a championship WR corps. We have no big time play makers, and all of them are short and injury prone. 5'10", 5'10", 6'0" and 6'1", and chances are one or two of them don't play the entire season. Unless you have Tom Brady in his prime throwing to these guys, I have no confidence in our WRs. The loss of Hopkins is gonna show really fast.
My issue is not health as much as height. Sure, I know at least one will miss time. However, who is going for jump balls? If they are matched up on a 5' 9" DB ok, maybe. Now that the NFL has more 6' and taller DBs I don't see much on the out jump the DB front. If you run past the DBs great...if not more passes will be batted due to the height factor. Wish we had a 6' 2" or more good WR. Even just a possession type. In school at 5' 10" vs 6' 3 or so guys I know I was not going to out jump them. Unless OB is going TE craziness we have to get a taller WR. Maybe it will happen as a camp cut we ink.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
My issue is not health as much as height. Sure, I know at least one will miss time. However, who is going for jump balls? If they are matched up on a 5' 9" DB ok, maybe. Now that the NFL has more 6' and taller DBs I don't see much on the out jump the DB front. If you run past the DBs great...if not more passes will be batted due to the height factor. Wish we had a 6' 2" or more good WR. Even just a possession type. In school at 5' 10" vs 6' 3 or so guys I know I was not going to out jump them. Unless OB is going TE craziness we have to get a taller WR. Maybe it will happen as a camp cut we ink.
Isaiah Coulter is 6'3 - 190 lbs. I know he's just a rookie who was drafted late. And with this covid-19 stuff going on it will be a long shot for this rookie. But if he can his way in the rotation let along make the final cut. He's the type of receiver you wants.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
My issue is not health as much as height. Sure, I know at least one will miss time. However, who is going for jump balls? If they are matched up on a 5' 9" DB ok, maybe. Now that the NFL has more 6' and taller DBs I don't see much on the out jump the DB front. If you run past the DBs great...if not more passes will be batted due to the height factor. Wish we had a 6' 2" or more good WR. Even just a possession type. In school at 5' 10" vs 6' 3 or so guys I know I was not going to out jump them. Unless OB is going TE craziness we have to get a taller WR. Maybe it will happen as a camp cut we ink.
They do have 4 TE's on the roster ….

In such a compressed field …. why not go with the bigger guys ? WR's aren't very likely to gain a heck of a lot of separation inside the 10.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
My issue is not health as much as height. Sure, I know at least one will miss time. However, who is going for jump balls? If they are matched up on a 5' 9" DB ok, maybe. Now that the NFL has more 6' and taller DBs I don't see much on the out jump the DB front. If you run past the DBs great...if not more passes will be batted due to the height factor. Wish we had a 6' 2" or more good WR. Even just a possession type. In school at 5' 10" vs 6' 3 or so guys I know I was not going to out jump them. Unless OB is going TE craziness we have to get a taller WR. Maybe it will happen as a camp cut we ink.
I think the offense is being shaped to offer Watson fast targets that can get open and hopefully bring some YAC. I am hopeful that Kelly also is creating plays that allow Dashaun to have less "checkdowns" to worry about; not exactly a run & shoot but same thought. The old button hook should be seen and any "jump balls" or fight for it will be done mostly be TEs. There are 6 footers as corner but if they press, our guys should make them pay. A fourth year Watson should need even less room to hit the window. Without TC it might take him some time to adjust to the speed he has. I'm hoping we will not need the Hopkins that had to make showtime catches or break off a route and come back to the QB.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
I think Larry Warford will end up with Texans as one of few teams can match his wants in contract. We have $13 m that doesn't have to be touched to offer him 5 year $40 m. He has asked for $7 m avg. He will turn 29 July 18th and is 6'3" 333.

Projected cuts Kelemete $2.8; Roderick Johnson 1.375; Kyle Murphy .75; Brent Qvale .6 =
$5.525. Bears allegedly out with Bengals only competition with $25 m cap space minus Draft pool IIRC.
 
I think OB might be thinking he has TB12 in his prime at QB. Don't get me wrong, Watson is good. But, until he gets to a Super Bowl, wins some AFC title games and makes a Super Bowl with a crew of cast off WRs...not even close. Nobody gets passes into windows like that and allows for YAC on seemingly every play. Watson is not at that level yet. So, lets hope 3 of the not so tall WRs stay healthy and can get some chunk plays and take the top off a D. Meanwhile, the TEs roam the 10yrd crosses and come back type routes and get the 50/50 and jump balls.
 
I think Larry Warford will end up with Texans as one of few teams can match his wants in contract. We have $13 m that doesn't have to be touched to offer him 5 year $40 m. He has asked for $7 m avg. He will turn 29 July 18th and is 6'3" 333.

Projected cuts Kelemete $2.8; Roderick Johnson 1.375; Kyle Murphy .75; Brent Qvale .6 =
$5.525. Bears allegedly out with Bengals only competition with $25 m cap space minus Draft pool IIRC.
Reports of Larry and the Jags working out the last details of a deal are hot.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Reports of Larry and the Jags working out the last details of a deal are hot.
Thanks, interesting as they can slide him in for AJ Cann 55% PFF but they got Ben Bartch in 4th to groom behind him. I thought BB could push out Cann really soon. My latest info is a few hours old with no mention of Jacksonville being in the hunt.
 

justmy2cents

Rookie
Contributor's Club
Thanks, interesting as they can slide him in for AJ Cann 55% PFF but they got Ben Bartch in 4th to groom behind him. I thought BB could push out Cann really soon. My latest info is a few hours old with no mention of Jacksonville being in the hunt.
Hey Bad, do we have some reluctance to bringing in Warford ?
 

mussop

Hall of Fame
There aren't many Darius Leonard's

Since everybody's worried about Cooks concussions, Leonard suffered a bad one last yr. So he may not even be on the field using the logic some are using with Cooks.
Leonard’s was a very bad concussion. So bad he feared for his career. So he may not. Cooks has had a flurry of them in a short time and He posted career-lows in receptions (42) and touchdowns (2) and his 583 receiving yards marked his lowest total since his rookie season in 2014. The last one wasnt even from a big hit. It was a very typical tackle and he went stiff and was down for long time. If you think it’s flawed logic to be worried about that well then I don’t know what to say.

I like Cooks, but he, Fuller and Johnson all have concerning recent injury histories and two of them have had career worst seasons. That’s THE MAIN CORE of the offense. I know you want to pump up Watson’s supporting cast to reinforce your argument that Watson isn’t that good but Sorry, that argument doesn’t hold water. Watson is being set up to fail and if you weren’t so biased against him it would be obvious to you.

the only way we make the playoffs is if Watson is balling out and playing at an MVP level. it Won’t be because he has a good supporting cast. It will be him carrying his subpar cast.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Leonard’s was a very bad concussion. So bad he feared for his career. So he may not. Cooks has had a flurry of them in a short time and He posted career-lows in receptions (42) and touchdowns (2) and his 583 receiving yards marked his lowest total since his rookie season in 2014. The last one wasnt even a big hit. It was a very typical tackle and he went stiff and was down for long time. If you think it’s flawed logic to be worried about that well then I don’t know what to say.

I like Cooks, but he, Fuller and Johnson all have concerning recent injury histories and two of them have had career worst seasons. That’s THE MAIN CORE of the offense. I know you want to pump up Watson’s supporting cast to reinforce your argument that Watson isn’t that good but Sorry, that argument doesn’t hold water. Watson is being set up to fail and if you weren’t so biased against him it would be obvious to you.

the only way we make the playoffs is if Watson is balling out and playing at an MVP level. it Won’t be because he has a good supporting cast. It will be him carrying his subpar cast.
If DW4'S supporting cast stays healthy it will be better.

I trust CnD's eval of Cooks concussion history. He hasn't lost his talent.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Allegedly he has said he wants trade without new deal. Whether true or not I'm interested. 7 million saved could be used in enticement.

Tunsil all oved again …. so then we're gonna pay him "most ever money at the position" Or he walks away ..... and have given up Justin Reid and McKinney.

I don't wanna be bent over that barrel again.
 

Mangler

Veteran
Seems like players are going after short term contracts nowadays. I just read that Dak is looking for a short term deal, while the Cowturds want to sign him long term.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Tunsil all oved again …. so then we're gonna pay him "most ever money at the position" Or he walks away ..... and have given up Justin Reid and McKinney.

I don't wanna be bent over that barrel again.
if he is willing to play for his 7 mil this year and 9 Mills 2021 we extend him now with a very good contract.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Seems like players are going after short term contracts nowadays. I just read that Dak is looking for a short term deal, while the Cowturds want to sign him long term.
I think the new CBA is going to have "no holdout" type language. If that's the case, then a long term deal is not good for the player.
 

Number19

Hall of Fame
That way the players can maximize their earning potential during the prime of their careers. It's actually pretty smart of them.
But it's bad for the game. An organization can't build a team based on short term contracts, instability and inconsistancy.

I would also say it's not good for fans,
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
But it's bad for the game. An organization can't build a team based on short term contracts, instability and inconsistancy.

I would also say it's not good for fans,
I disagree. When a long term contract is signed, it's usually so front-loaded that the 1st three years are where the bulk of the guaranteed money is. These short term deals are the player's way of responding to the inequities inherent in the NFL's contracts. The teams can effectively void a contract whenever they wish but the player is stuck in an unfavorable contract if the team wants to do that.
Why shouldn't the player turn the tables and insist on short term deals.
I follow teams, not players so a player moving on isn't a huge deal to me. Having said that, you can bet your ass I'll be following a few teams a little closer than usual this year.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
I disagree. When a long term contract is signed, it's usually so front-loaded that the 1st three years are where the bulk of the guaranteed money is. These short term deals are the player's way of responding to the inequities inherent in the NFL's contracts. The teams can effectively void a contract whenever they wish but the player is stuck in an unfavorable contract if the team wants to do that.
Why shouldn't the player turn the tables and insist on short term deals.
I follow teams, not players so a player moving on isn't a huge deal to me. Having said that, you can bet your ass I'll be following a few teams a little closer than usual this year.
There will be some who follow other teams to evaluate players who could be available to Houston in a year.
 

Number19

Hall of Fame
I disagree. When a long term contract is signed, it's usually so front-loaded that the 1st three years are where the bulk of the guaranteed money is. These short term deals are the player's way of responding to the inequities inherent in the NFL's contracts. The teams can effectively void a contract whenever they wish but the player is stuck in an unfavorable contract if the team wants to do that.
Why shouldn't the player turn the tables and insist on short term deals.
I follow teams, not players so a player moving on isn't a huge deal to me. Having said that, you can bet your ass I'll be following a few teams a little closer than usual this year.
I'm talking about a team's ability to find and put into place an offence or defense. Just for example. You find your franchise QB. But you have to have a LT to protect his blindside. You find that player. But you have him for only two or three years and then he's gone for more money. Now multiply that for 20 more starters. You cannot build a team based on short term contracts. It's may be good for players but it's not good for teams and it's not good for the game of football.

You say you follow teams and not players? So you're good with the Hopkins trade? How about letting Watt go? Watson?

What if it's going to take the unheard of salary of 20% or 25% of the cap to sign Watson?

Just as the Texans are putting in place the players that just may result in the kind of offense that we as fans would like to see, this will only be for this year and we'll have to let players go next year because of the cap.

Short term contracts will change the game and not for the best in my opinion.
 

KoolAid Sipper

Waterboy
I disagree. When a long term contract is signed, it's usually so front-loaded that the 1st three years are where the bulk of the guaranteed money is. These short term deals are the player's way of responding to the inequities inherent in the NFL's contracts. The teams can effectively void a contract whenever they wish but the player is stuck in an unfavorable contract if the team wants to do that.
Why shouldn't the player turn the tables and insist on short term deals.
I follow teams, not players so a player moving on isn't a huge deal to me. Having said that, you can bet your ass I'll be following a few teams a little closer than usual this year.
I wonder how shorter terms would affect the structure of the salaries and signing bonuses if a team has 3 top level contracts. I think its the signing bonuses that would make the cap hit huge on shorter term deals.
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
I'm talking about a team's ability to find and put into place an offence or defense. Just for example. You find your franchise QB. But you have to have a LT to protect his blindside. You find that player. But you have him for only two or three years and then he's gone for more money. Now multiply that for 20 more starters. You cannot build a team based on short term contracts. It's may be good for players but it's not good for teams and it's not good for the game of football.

You say you follow teams and not players? So you're good with the Hopkins trade? How about letting Watt go? Watson?

What if it's going to take the unheard of salary of 20% or 25% of the cap to sign Watson?

Just as the Texans are putting in place the players that just may result in the kind of offense that we as fans would like to see, this will only be for this year and we'll have to let players go next year because of the cap.

Short term contracts will change the game and not for the best in my opinion.
If every player starts doing this, it will be the same problem for every team and it will work itself out. That's the beauty of the salary cap era. You can't buy the best team in the NFL like the 49ers did in the 80s and early 90s.
I was not OK with the Hopkins trade. I would've kept him at least one more year. I would pay Watson a king's ransom and let Watt walk if that's what it came down to due to injury history, the likelihood of re-injury/compensatory injury and Father Time is undefeated. I would probably try to keep him at an average salary for a top 10 DL, but no higher.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
If every player starts doing this, it will be the same problem for every team and it will work itself out. That's the beauty of the salary cap era. You can't buy the best team in the NFL like the 49ers did in the 80s and early 90s.
I was not OK with the Hopkins trade. I would've kept him at least one more year. I would pay Watson a king's ransom and let Watt walk if that's what it came down to due to injury history, the likelihood of re-injury/compensatory injury and Father Time is undefeated. I would probably try to keep him at an average salary for a top 10 DL, but no higher.
I'm still hearing talk out of Chicago that there is some interest in JJ but those possible scenarios I am not interested in. The best of those was straight up for a second round 2021.

610 today discussing Watt's recent convo about he hears everything and doesn't have his head in sand. He said not the time to ask for more dinero and wanted to prove he is worth it. They spoke about him having much more power than Hop did and direction was Watt wanting to see how this roster did this year before deciding to remain here or move on or retire. I just got on MB now and the comments by JJ are probably posted elsewhere for your perusal. As with coaching and several players including Watson, David Johnson, Fuller and others, this needs to be the put up or your gone season.

I see this as a smart move by JJ as he is at $15.5 and 17.5 m N-GTD base for next two seasons. He needs (turned 31 March 22nd) another 2018 or at least very closed to it. Torn pectoral may be ready for 2020 but he looked really bad when he came back after surgery. Can he? Well if anyone, it would have to be him but I'm going to have to see it. I am willing to trade any player if offer is right but I just do not see an offer worth more than I think we will get from him, again if he remains healthy and on field. Tunsil made his but # 99 and #4 should play all pro type to lock in as many bucks as possible under Covid19 fan restrictions and salary cap adjustments-- if any.
 

IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
I'm still hearing talk out of Chicago that there is some interest in JJ but those possible scenarios I am not interested in. The best of those was straight up for a second round 2021.

610 today discussing Watt's recent convo about he hears everything and doesn't have his head in sand. He said not the time to ask for more dinero and wanted to prove he is worth it. They spoke about him having much more power than Hop did and direction was Watt wanting to see how this roster did this year before deciding to remain here or move on or retire. I just got on MB now and the comments by JJ are probably posted elsewhere for your perusal. As with coaching and several players including Watson, David Johnson, Fuller and others, this needs to be the put up or your gone season.

I see this as a smart move by JJ as he is at $15.5 and 17.5 m N-GTD base for next two seasons. He needs (turned 31 March 22nd) another 2018 or at least very closed to it. Torn pectoral may be ready for 2020 but he looked really bad when he came back after surgery. Can he? Well if anyone, it would have to be him but I'm going to have to see it. I am willing to trade any player if offer is right but I just do not see an offer worth more than I think we will get from him, again if he remains healthy and on field. Tunsil made his but # 99 and #4 should play all pro type to lock in as many bucks as possible under Covid19 fan restrictions and salary cap adjustments-- if any.
Given his injury history and age a second round pick would be a fair price for JJ Watt IMO.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Given his injury history and age a second round pick would be a fair price for JJ Watt IMO.
I understand if it had been a second round for last draft offered prior to 2020 draft I would have thought about it but my gamble is he will outperform a 2021 round two this season. He was on a decent run prior to the pec and if healed, I expect him to go lights out as posted above.
 

IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
I understand if it had been a second round for last draft offered prior to 2020 draft I would have thought about it but my gamble is he will outperform a 2021 round two this season. He was on a decent run prior to the pec and if healed, I expect him to go lights out as posted above.
IMO we should have learned our lesson about this sort of thing by now. The O'Brien-Gain GMs combo probably could have scored a second-round pick (or mybe multi mid rounds) for JDC prior to the 2020 Draft but too many folks were reportedly holding out for a first or mybe multiple first round picks.
Or the dumb-azz O'Brien seems to find a realistic middle ground for value as he gave away the best football player on the team to the Cards for a second-rounder which we all know should have been a first round pick.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
IMO we should have learned our lesson about this sort of thing by now. The O'Brien-Gain GMs combo probably could have scored a second-round pick (or mybe multi mid rounds) for JDC prior to the 2020 Draft but too many folks were reportedly holding out for a first or mybe multiple first round picks.
Or the dumb-azz O'Brien seems to find a realistic middle ground for value as he gave away the best football player on the team to the Cards for a second-rounder which we all know should have been a first round pick.
I thought DW4 was the best player on the team?
 


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