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Injury Thread

texan279

Hall of Fame
An 11 year study of NFL players sustaining pec ruptures published in 2014 revealed 10 players being identified by records...............the average return to play was 111 days (just short of 4 months). There was 1 outlier at 42 days. And a few with recoveries as long as 189 days.

My experience with athletes that require arm strength is that the return to play can be 4-6 months...........and typically closer to 6 months. And recovery of maximum strength..........closer to 1 year.

Here is a 2018 review of studies on the subject:

View attachment 5009

What is interesting to note in this most recent review, the proportion of professional athletes who returned to their preinjury level of sport was lower. Although the majority (90%) returned to play, only 74% returned to preinjury level. The decrease of strength of the affected arm was typically only ~10%, but in an elite athlete that requires maximum strength to excel at his position, 10% is a significant loss.

For Watt to come back for the 2020 playoffs would likely set him up, like commonly occurs for any player pushing his return, for poor performance and high risk re-injury. A first game playoff return would mean Watt would be returning only ~2 months post surgery...........the conference championship game at only ~2 1/2 months post surgery...............and even if delayed until the SB, ~3 months post surgery.

I'l let others consult Vegas on the odds. My feeling is that overall it is probably unrealistic and even more so ill-advised..............but maybe after flipping some more truck tires and practicing more 6 foot box jumps.....................
Thank you. Great insight and info as usual. Much appreciated.
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
For Watt to come back for the 2020 playoffs would likely set him up, like commonly occurs for any player pushing his return, for poor performance and high risk re-injury
Without putting you on the spot, but what you are saying makes the Texans statement even more ridiculous than I thought when I first read it.

So I have to assume the reports of his injury have to be incorrect. Can't be a full torn pec.

Do you have detailed information concerning Watts current injury as to the actual severity of the tear?
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
An 11 year study of NFL players sustaining pec ruptures published in 2014 revealed 10 players being identified by records...............the average return to play was 111 days (just short of 4 months). There was 1 outlier at 42 days. And a few with recoveries as long as 189 days.

My experience with athletes that require arm strength is that the return to play can be 4-6 months...........and typically closer to 6 months. And recovery of maximum strength..........closer to 1 year.

Here is a 2018 review of studies on the subject:

View attachment 5009

What is interesting to note in this most recent review, the proportion of professional athletes who returned to their preinjury level of sport was lower. Although the majority (90%) returned to play, only 74% returned to preinjury level. The decrease of strength of the affected arm was typically only ~10%, but in an elite athlete that requires maximum strength to excel at his position, 10% is a significant loss.

For Watt to come back for the 2020 playoffs would likely set him up, like commonly occurs for any player pushing his return, for poor performance and high risk re-injury. A first game playoff return would mean Watt would be returning only ~2 months post surgery...........the conference championship game at only ~2 1/2 months post surgery...............and even if delayed until the SB, ~3 months post surgery.

I'l let others consult Vegas on the odds. My feeling is that overall it is probably unrealistic and even more so ill-advised..............but maybe after flipping some more truck tires and practicing more 6 foot box jumps.....................
Does grade of tear make a difference? Maybe his wasn't as severe... or mind games?
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Does grade of tear make a difference? Maybe his wasn't as severe... or mind games?
Without putting you on the spot, but what you are saying makes the Texans statement even more ridiculous than I thought when I first read it.

So I have to assume the reports of his injury have to be incorrect. Can't be a full torn pec.

Do you have detailed information concerning Watts current injury as to the actual severity of the tear?
Partial pectoral tears in an elite athlete are treated with surgery, essentially with the same protective rehab routine and return to play as a complete rupture.
 
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CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame

I was asked if the contagion period for a cold was less than for the flu.................the answer is no, they carry identical time period of being contagious..........~1 day prior to the appearance of symptoms to ~7 days after the appearance of symptoms.................I suspect that there will be some Pats players out there that shouldn't be.
 
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CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Mike Reiss has posted this pic of LB Kyle Van Noy, one of nine players who are questionable with an illness, wears a mask as he arrives at NRG Stadium.

1575244674536.png
This really bothers me..............if he is wearing a mask because he was potentially contagious 2 hours ago, he doesn't miraculously become noncontagious at game time...........and Van Noy has been reported active for this game.

Furthermore, his very presence bothers me..................studies have repeatedly shown that masks do not protect from viruses for more than 20 minutes.............they only work if they are changed out that often (yes, even though they are not, even in surgery). Finally, it's important to know that there is no protection afforded to bystanders within 6 feet without a mask............and even with a mask on, the mask does not contain viruses when the person wearing it has an explosive force such as coughing and sneezing.
 
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CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Only 2 of the 9 "Ill" players are inactive........................that in itself is a joke in that no NFL flu policy exists............the final injury reports/inactives lists are only for those players who cannot perform.............unfortunately, not for those that can still perform at some level BUT can also generously spread their "joy" to others.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
I know for one, Marcus Cannon (on the Injury Report for "illness") had to leave the game temporarily for IV fluids................and it wasn't for the heat.
 
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CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
A repost from my post in the Texans vs Patriots thread:

Some of the "ill" players were reported to have have "colds" (symptoms above the neck.........runny nose, stuffy head, sore throat, etc) and some to have the "flu" (symptoms below the neck......such as from the lungs, body aches, fatigue, etc). With the former, sports performance is likely not to be significantly affected, even when symptoms are ongoing. With the latter, during symptoms, sports performance will definitely be significantly affected. However, even after symptoms have resolved, the effects on the heart, muscle recovery, endurance is significant. Immobility itself during the flu contributes to making the body exhausted. In an athlete during the period of any symptoms, performance potential is negatively affected.........the greater the symptoms, the greater the effect. These effects do not just immediately reverse right at the time symptoms leaving. It tends to be a gradual phenomenon. In fact, a full recovery from a one week long feverish flu takes as long as 2 to 3 months.

We don't know which player had what "illness" (cold vs flu). But inevitably those coming off the flu would still have seen their performances last night affected to varying degrees. Since we don't have all the information re. each individual player, it would be difficult to try to determine how much the result of last night's final score was affected.

Of greater concern is what effect any exposure of our players to Patriots players may have in the ensuing weeks............i.e., will we see our players over the next week or 2 come down with "illness" because some Patriots players were allowed to play during their period of contagion.
 
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CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Something to watch for. The typical flu incubation period (the time between exposure and the start of symptoms) is between 24 hours and four days, with the average being two days. This means that if you are exposed to the influenza virus and become infected, you will start to experience flu symptoms such as fever and body aches anywhere between 24 hours and 4 days after the exposure.
 
No, I don't believe Brady will opt for surgery, as he will continue to find those "magic" conservative treatments that will keep him going...........until they can't.
This ESPN article, posted today, talks of "Brady's decline" without much, if any mention of the physical issues he's facing with tendinitis. However, given that he likely won't have surgery, his 'aging elbow' could certainly be viewed as a culprit that perhaps won't go away this season...and may prevent him from playing beyond 2020:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28207099/tom-brady-showing-signs-decline-real-another-mirage

Doc - after watching Brady last night, any additional thoughts? Personally I thought his passes lacked A LOT of the usual velocity...and although not 'Peyton Manning's last season bad' was certainly way below what we've even seen from him in the past...
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
This ESPN article, posted today, talks of "Brady's decline" without much, if any mention of the physical issues he's facing with tendinitis. However, given that he likely won't have surgery, his 'aging elbow' could certainly be viewed as a culprit that perhaps won't go away this season...and may prevent him from playing beyond 2020:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28207099/tom-brady-showing-signs-decline-real-another-mirage

Doc - after watching Brady last night, any additional thoughts? Personally I thought his passes lacked A LOT of the usual velocity...and although not 'Peyton Manning's last season bad' was certainly way below what we've even seen from him in the past...
With elbow tendonitis, passing is negatively affected by pain, range of motion limitations, loss of velocity and also grip strength. All of these factors as I've posted before come increasingly into play with increasing repetitions. Since long passes can be generated more from the shoulder/pectoralis muscles without great velocity, they may be less affected, except for loss of accuracy. Shorter passes depend more on the strong snap from the elbow generating greater velocity for the ball to target a typically small area of window.........in a compressed window of time.

I believe that we saw all of these factors in play last night...........moreso as the game progressed. Prior to the game, I remarked that it would be to the Texans' advantage to see Brady throw a high number of passes..................he threw the highest total number for this season in one game............in fact the highest number in the past 3 seasons..................47!
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Hopefully, the Texans gave players Flu shots....
Unfortunately, looking at the 2018-2019 rates of vaccine effectiveness for the most common viruses are not all that impressive for the NFL age group..........................Influenze A virus~43%............Influenza B virus ~3%.

EDIT addition: Most people don't understand that the flu vaccines every year have a relatively poor track record of preventing the flu.
 
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Mr.Scarface

Waterboy
Unfortunately, looking at the 2018-2019 rates of vaccine effectiveness for the most common viruses are not all that impressive for the NFL age group..........................Influenze A virus~43%............Influenza B virus ~3%
Well, my wife (nurse) says that last year's vaccine was the worst in the last decade at preventing the virus from infecting people.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
Well, my wife (nurse) says that last year's vaccine was the worst in the last decade at preventing the virus from infecting people.
Last year was not so isolated. For example, for 2017-2018:
  • Influenza A predominated (81% vs. 19% influenza B), with the majority being the H3N2 subtype (85%).
  • Overall, vaccine effectiveness against medically attended influenza A and B was 36%:
    • 25% against influenza A (H3N2)
    • 67% against influenza A (H1N1)
    • 42% against influenza B
  • Its effectiveness for children 6 months to 8 years of age was higher (59%) than for adults 18–49 years (33%..........when further broken down to include only the most common influenza A H3N2 virus in the NFL age group, ~14%)
 

Speedy

Yeller Dweller
Something to watch for. The typical flu incubation period (the time between exposure and the start of symptoms) is between 24 hours and four days, with the average being two days. This means that if you are exposed to the influenza virus and become infected, you will start to experience flu symptoms such as fever and body aches anywhere between 24 hours and 4 days after the exposure.
So we're looking at right when the 1st injury report comes out on Wednesday, right?
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
So we're looking at right when the 1st injury report comes out on Wednesday, right?
Around that time...........but remember the player(s) would still have to honestly report it or their symptoms to be progressed that they were noticeable to those around them....................this could significantly extend times to declaration of "illness." Even with honesty, a player may shrug the beginning mild signs and symptoms off until clearly evident, resulting in a delay in recognition of the illness.
 

Seegara

Guitar Picker, Dog Lover, Woodworker
Only 2 of the 9 "Ill" players are inactive........................that in itself is a joke in that no NFL flu policy exists............the final injury reports/inactives lists are only for those players who cannot perform.............unfortunately, not for those that can still perform at some level BUT can also generously spread their "joy" to others.
I might join the clamor for the NFL to have a flu policy, or for that matter a contagious disease policy in general, except for one fact: Most of those who are exposed will not contract the malady.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
I might join the clamor for the NFL to have a flu policy, or for that matter a contagious disease policy in general, except for one fact: Most of those who are exposed will not contract the malady.
The type/amount of exposure though makes a big difference.............much much more likely to get a healthy dose of exposure in a football game where everyone is on top of each other huffing, puffing, snorting, spitting..........while hitting each other, many times face to face.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
1575520855101.png

TAIWAN JONES [HAMSTRING]............NEW...........SUSTAINED PLAYING STS...........DO NOT EXPECT TO SEE HIM SUNDAY

BLACKSON [SHOULDER] AND SCARLET [SHOULDER] DID NOT PLAY LAST GAME............EXPECT BOTH TO RETURN WITH SHOULDER BRACES

FULLER SLIGHTLY TWEEKED HIS HAMSTRING LAST GAME............WILL KEEP HIS PRACTICES TO LOW GRADE, PROBABLY THE REST OF THE SEASON.............SHOULD BE OUT THERE SUNDAY

WATKINS [HAMSTRING]..........MISSED LAST WEEK........WOULD NOT PLAY HIM THIS SOON

ROBY [HAMSTRING/TOE]............STILL DEALING WITH HIS HAMSTRING, BUT HAS DEVELOPED A COMPENSATORY TURF TOE............COULD BE QUESTIONABLE FOR SUNDAY IF A STIFF INSOLE DOES NOT LET HIM PERFORM COMFORTABLY (IN THAT CASE, WOULD WORRY IT COULD CAUSE COMPENSATORY AGGRAVATION OF THE HAMSTRING)

CONLEY MISSED LAST WEEK WITH HIS HIP POINTER...........HOPEFULLY HE DOESN'T REPEAT A MULTI-GAME LOSS AS HE DID FROM A SIMILAR INJURY IN 2018...........FROM WHAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GATHER, THE SEVERITY OF THIS RECENT INJURY IS AT A MUCH LESSER LEVEL THAN HIS PREVIOUS INJURY............WITHOUT SETBACK, HE SHOULD BE BACK SUNDAY
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
FULLER SLIGHTLY TWEEKED HIS HAMSTRING LAST GAME............WILL KEEP HIS PRACTICES TO LOW GRADE, PROBABLY THE REST OF THE SEASON.............SHOULD BE OUT THERE SUNDAY
How long does it take for a hamstring to properly heal? Know Fuller the hamstring is going to pop again if he doesn’t let up. Could they **** him down for only the two Titans games and would that help?
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
COMMENTARIES TO THE WEDNESDAY BRONCOS INJURY REPORT:

VON MILLER [KNEE]..........SUSTAINED LEFT MCL KNEE INJURY WEEK 12...........MISSED LAST GAME..........1ST GAME MISSED FOR INJURY IN 6 YEARS (A 95 GAME STREAK)...........BESIDES THIS, HE IS ON HIS WAY TO ONE OF IF NOT HIS LOWEST SACK/PERFORMANCE YEARS..............ALTHOUGH NOT NOTED IN THE OFFICIAL INJURY REPORT FOR WEDNESDAY, HE WAS A LIMITED PARTICIPANT............EXPECT HIM TO BE QUESTIONABLE AGAIN FOR SUNDAY

G RON LEARY [CONCUSSION]..........SUSTAINED LAST GAME.........UNLIKELY TO PLAY SUNDAY (AT LEAST, QUESTIONABLE)...........UP TO THEN HE HAS BEEN DEALING WITH SHOULDER AND NECK INJURIES SUSTAINED WEEK 11

S WILL PARKS [HAND].............A METACARPAL STRESS FRACTURE SUSTAINED THE INJURY WEEK 7............HAD SURGERY SHORTLY THEREAFTER...........WITH THE BENEFIT OF THE WEEK 10 BYE, HE ONLY FORMALLY MISSED 2 GAMES AND CAME BACK TO PLAY WEEK 11 WITH A CAST.............IT APPEARS THAT HE RE-INJURED THE HAND IN THE LAST GAME..........SINCE HIS RETURN FROM SURGERY, HE HAS BEEN INEFFECTIVE..............WHETHER HE PLAYS SUNDAY OR NOT WILL DEPEND ON HIS PRACTICE PARTICIPATION THE REST OF THE WEEK

DE MALIK REED [ANKLE/SHOULDER].............NEW...........EXITED LAST GAME WITH A LOWER LEG INJURY BUT WAS ABLE TO RETURN............THE RETURN AGGRAVATED A HIGH ANKLE SPRAIN.........SHOULDER INJURY IS NONDISCLOSED...........VERY UNLIKELY TO PLAY SUNDAY

OLB JEREMIAH ATTAOCHU [LOWER LEG]............NEW.........EXITED THE LAST GAME AND THEN RETURNED...........APPEARS TO BE A TIBIA BONE BRUISE...........DEPENDING ON PAIN TOLERANCE, WILL PLAY SUNDAY

RB ROYCE FREEMAN [RIBS]...........NEW............BRUISED, NOT FRACTURED............HE WILL PLAY SUNDAY
LB ALEXANDER JOHNSON [KNEE]...........SUSTAINED A GRADE I LEFT MCL WEEK 12...........NOTICEABLY HAMPERED HIS TACKLING AND MOBILITY THROUGHOUT LAST WEEK'S GAME............HE TOUGHED IT THROUGH LAST GAME, HE'LL TOUGH IT THROUGH THIS SUNDAY

G CONNOR MCGOVERN [BACK]............SUSTAINED BACK MUSCLE STRAIN WEEK 11............HAS PLAYED THROUGH THE LAST 2 GAMES WITH NOTICEABLE COMPROMISE OF STRENGTH.............HE WILL PLAY THROUGH HIS INJURY THIS SUNDAY IF NO SETBACK
 
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CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
How long does it take for a hamstring to properly heal? Know Fuller the hamstring is going to pop again if he doesn’t let up. Could they **** him down for only the two Titans games and would that help?
As I've repeatedly posted, hamstrings are a very touchy unpredictable injury after the original injury. But it becomes moreso as relates to RE-injury. Fuller's risk within the same season of the initial injury has been reported in studies to be anywhere from 12% to 50%..........most close to ~33 1/3%. Also be aware the weak/injured hamstring is a significant risk factor in ACL rupture, since the hamstrings play a significant role in stabilizing the knee ligaments..............Fuller has already suffered a relatively recent ACL injury.

Basically, the above is the reason that I feel that players coming back from significant hamstring tears should not play in games unless they have been able to fully participate in practices prior to the game.............and even this is not a guarantee that the hamstring will sustain its integrity, but it probably gives a bit better foresight of how things will work out.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
1575586020027.png

OUTLOOKS ARE ESSENTIALLY UNCHANGED FROM YESTERDAY EXCEPT FOR

TE AKINS [KNEE]..........NEW..........SUSTAINED IN WEDNESDAY PRACTICE..............MISSED THE 2015 UCS SEASON WITH AN ACL RUPTURE REQUIRING SURGERY SUFFERED ON THE OPENING KICKOFF OF A GAME...........AT THE TIME, HE WAS A WR (THE TEAM'S LEADING WR), KICKOFF AND PUNT RETURNER.................FOLLOWING HIS KNEE SURGERY, HE CONCENTRATED HIS REHAB ON STRENGTHENING AND WAS CONVERTED TO TE.........INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT UPON HIS RETURN AND HAVING VERY GOOD NUMBERS IN THOSE 2 YEARS ALONG WITH AN IMPRESSIVE SENIOR BOWL PERFORMANCE, HE RECEIVED A MEDICAL EXCLUSION AT THE COMBINE FOR HIS LEFT KNEE............IT APPEARS THAT HE HAS RE-INJURED THAT KNEE............MAY END UP QUESTIONABLE FOR SUNDAY

 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
1575590673486.png

ALTHOUGH THERE HAVE BEEN A HANDFUL OF UPGRADES AMONG THOSE WHO EITHER DID NOT PRACTICE OR PRACTICED LIMITED YESTERDAY, SUNDAY PREDICTIONS REMAIN ESSENTIALLY UNCHANGED, AS TODAY'S PRACTICE WAS NON-CONTACT.
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Hey, Doc what do you make of Howard's meniscus repair? Is that an actual repair or removal?The timing would tell me it's a repair.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
1575668805791.png

PRETTY MUCH GOES ALONG WITH MY ORIGINAL WEDNESDAY ASSESSMENTS.

ONE THING TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION, PLAYERS LIKE FULLER, ROBY, CONLEY AND SCARLETT MAY TEND TO BE LEFT OUT OF THIS GAME IN PREPARATION OF THE MORE IMPORTANT/DIFFICULT TITANS GAME....................HOWEVER, WATKINS AFTER ONLY 2 WEEKS AFTER A HAMSTRING SHOULD WATCH THE GAME ON THE SIDELINES.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
FRIDAY BRONCOS STATUS INJURY REPORT

1575670015115.png

AGAIN, PRETTY MUCH CONSISTENT WITH MY WEDNESDAY ASSESSMENTS, EXCEPT T JA'WUAN JAMES, WHO DESPITE FULL PRACTICES THROUGHOUT THE WEEK POPS UP AS QUESTIONABLE..................HIS HISTORY IS INTERESTING...............HE SUSTAINED A TIBIAL BONE BRUISE THE BEGINNING OF THIS PAST TC.................WHEN HE RETURNED IN WEEK 1, HE SUSTAINED WHAT WAS ONLY DESCRIBED AS A "KNEE INJURY"..................IN FACT, WHAT HE SUFFERED WAS A GRADE II MCL (SIMILAR TO HOWARD'S)..............TRIED TO COME BACK WEEK 8, WHERE HE RE-INJURED HIS MCL.................HAS NOT PLAYED SINCE..............WEEK 13, HE PARTICIPATED FULLY THROUGHOUT THE WEEK WAS STILL LISTED AS QUESTIONABLE WITH THE FEELING THAT HE COULD PLAY THOUGH THEY WANTED TO BE EXTRA CAUTIOUS..........................HE IS AGAIN LISTED AS QUESTIONABLE AFTER A WEEK OF FULL PARTICIPATION.................IF HE DOESN'T PLAY SUNDAY, SUSPECT THAT HE HAS SUFFERED ANOTHER SETBACK AND SHOULD PROBABLY BE SHUTDOWN
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
At this point of the season, I'd like to remind you all of something.............NFL practice rules.

The CBA between NFL owners and players limits teams to 14 padded practices over the course of a season, 11 of which must be held in the first 11 weeks. That means in the last 5 games, only 3 contact practices are allowed, making it much more difficult to assess a player's status.


 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
A testament to the validity of the Patriots Injury Report after Brady popped up with a toe injury in addition to his elbow:

"That might be the first time my toe's ever been on the injury report. You know us Patriots. We're pretty diligent about listing everything, so I guess we have to make mention of my toe now as well."
 


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