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How much is Andre worth to you?

How much is Andre worth against the cap?

  • $16M Let it ride, we're not going after high dollar Fas anyway

    Votes: 15 20.5%

  • $12M As long as we save $4M against the cap, I'm happy

    Votes: 9 12.3%

  • $10M We need to save at least $6M against the cap if we're going to keep Andre Johnson

    Votes: 21 28.8%

  • $8M He's not worth more than a $5M cap hit, but I respect what he's done for the organization

    Votes: 14 19.2%

  • $6M We can sign a vet receiver for $6M

    Votes: 10 13.7%

  • $0 The team is better off without him

    Votes: 4 5.5%
  • Total voters
    73
infantrycak said:
He did within a few days of it being started.

By public I mean it will display everyone who has voted for each not just the total.
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This is a public poll. Click on the numbers & it shows who all voted for which option. Before I asked, I looked to see where he voted & didn't see his name... must have missed it.
 
steelbtexan said:
I'm in the 6 mil and the Texans can sign a vet WR club. Preferably Cobb.

Draft David Cobb, Sign Randall Cobb with the AJ savings and draft an OT and I'm very happy with this offseason.
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When have our beloved Texans ever been big players in FA ? As much as i wish they would they will not sign Cobb or any big name FA out there. The biggest we ever went was J. Joseph and D. Manning a few years back.
 
EllisUnit said:
When have our beloved Texans ever been big players in FA ? As much as i wish they would they will not sign Cobb or any big name FA out there. The biggest we ever went was J. Joseph and D. Manning a few years back.
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I just find it hard to believe that Brandon Lafell would have 80 catches for 900 yards with FitzMalvagenum throwing him the ball.
 
find a QB like Type brady not only physical wise like him but mental and skill wise like him and whats funny is a lot of QB's like tom brady come out every year but for some reason or another they don't get it done
 
Runner said:
You "bet" that if the Texans had won the Indy game that my opinion of Savage would have changed:



My response was that if Savage played with the same skill level in a (hypothetical) win as he did in the (reality) loss, my opinion of his play in that game wouldn't have changed:



And because of that statement you extrapolate that I am stating the fact that Mallet and Savage will both bust. Hardly. As I've said, Mallett is promising but there is too little data to proclaim him the franchise quarterback. I think the Texans should be looking at other avenues to acquire a franchise level quarterback in case Mallett does not pan out.

I think Savage is unlikely to be a franchise quarterback because he got passed up by professional evaluators several times the last draft, and historically late round quarterbacks like that usually don't succeed. That is an opinion based on information - just not the "film study" and "grading" some like to hang their hats on.

=====================

I also can't help but point out that there seems to plenty of "tape" to crown Mallett and Savage as brilliant acquisitions, although you were quick to twist things around and then point out I didn't know what I was talking about since I didn't share that opinion.
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You can count me among the ones who think Mallett/Savage can be the answer, but Mallett would have to come at a team friendly price. I certainly like those two better than any QB available in FA and better than any draft pick that will fall to #16. If Winston falls to #16, my opinion would deinitely change.

My opinion is based on some film study: Mallett looked pretty darn good against Cleveland and it's fairly obvious ( too me, at least ) that a pec injury could lead to the performance we all saw against Cincy.

Savage was absolutely horrid in the 2nd quarter against Indy, but his 2nd half performance was impressive and indicitive of the mental toughness that's required at his position. He's under contract, so why not give him the chance to compete?

Being realistic ( no stupendous, blockbuster trades ), who do you seriously think the Texans could aquire, in 2015, that would automatically make the Texans a playoff contender and is not currently under contract with the Texans? I contend that player is Mallett. No QB in FA and ony one in the draft really piques my interest. That draftee will, almost gauranteed, not fall to the Texans and I'm not willing to see the Texans give up what i would take to get that draftee. I say roll with what the Texans have (including the assumption that Mallett is re-signed) and see what happens. With a healthy 2014 draft class (not counting on JDC, myself ) and a fresh, new crop of 2015 draft picks, there could be enough talent to support average QB and make a seious playoff run.

I hope I've made my stance on AJ clear enough. I love the dude and what he's meant to the Texans, but I'm in the Walsh/Belichick camp. My loyalty is more to the team than a certain player. Wins and titles mean more than anything else. I expect the coaching staff and management to act accordingly.
 
DocBar said:
You can count me among the ones who think Mallett/Savage can be the answer, but Mallett would have to come at a team friendly price.
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If you worked with him for two years & your best bud worked with him for five years & the two of you were convinced he could be the next Phillip Rivers... how much would be too much?

I understand the money side of this is important, but I'm going to believe OB is going to marry himself to a QB he believes can take us all the way. So if we sign Mallett to a 6+ million dollar deal, or a $12M dollar deal, he feels that Mallett is the guy.

Not saying that's the kind of deal we'll sign him to, if we can even sign him. Just saying... it's going to be what it's going to be. If it's the number we're hoping for, then I'll conclude we're still looking for the guy. If it's something crazy, that's going to upset most of us... I'm going to give OB the benefit of the doubt. They (he & Godsey) have spent enough time with him to know what they've got.
 
thunderkyss said:
If you worked with him for two years & your best bud worked with him for five years & the two of you were convinced he could be the next Phillip Rivers... how much would be too much?

I understand the money side of this is important, but I'm going to believe OB is going to marry himself to a QB he believes can take us all the way. So if we sign Mallett to a 6+ million dollar deal, or a $12M dollar deal, he feels that Mallett is the guy.

Not saying that's the kind of deal we'll sign him to, if we can even sign him. Just saying... it's going to be what it's going to be. If it's the number we're hoping for, then I'll conclude we're still looking for the guy. If it's something crazy, that's going to upset most of us... I'm going to give OB the benefit of the doubt. They (he & Godsey) have spent enough time with him to know what they've got.
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This simply isn't the case, though.

New England had has Tom freaking Brady. The Texans HC has coached Mallett. Mallett is not an unknown. Savage somewhat fits the "Brady Profile".

A team does what it can to retain Tom Brady. The Texans biggest competition for Mallett will be a team desperate for a QB. I like the Texan's odds there.

I'm good wth a $12 mill contract that is properly structured.
 
infantrycak said:
I'm curious what examples there are for carrying out this under Walsh? Rice and Montana both departed under Siefert as did Craig, Lott, Carter, Wright and Haley.

steelb, feel free to jump in with an answer on that.
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So the question is whether the Niners' trade/cut 'em when they're declining was truly a Walsh philosophy or an Eddie DeBartolo philosophy...?
 
ObsiWan said:
So the question is whether the Niners' trade/cut 'em when they're declining was truly a Walsh philosophy or an Eddie DeBartolo philosophy...?
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Well I guess I was getting more at whether it was a theoretical or practiced philosophy and if it was practiced, whether it was exercised on stars.
 
infantrycak said:
Well I guess I was getting more at whether it was a theoretical or practiced philosophy and if it was practiced, whether it was exercised on stars.
Click to expand...

Ronnie Lott/Bubba Paris/Freddy Solomon/Dwight Clark etc... are examples of the 49ers letting guys go/cutting them before the end of their careers.
 
steelbtexan said:
Ronnie Lott/Bubba Paris/Freddy Solomon/Dwight Clark etc... are examples of the 49ers letting guys go/cutting them before the end of their careers.
Click to expand...

Look back at the question - done by Walsh.

Clark retired.
Lott was Siefert.
Bubba Paris was Siefert and was done after 1 year.
Solomon retired.

So none so far.
 
infantrycak said:
Look back at the question - done by Walsh.

Clark retired.
Lott was Siefert.
Bubba Paris was Siefert and was done after 1 year.
Solomon retired.

So none so far.
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Before being cut. You should take the time to go back and look at the 49ers rosters for a 5 yr period under Walsh.

Montana is the greatest example ( I know under Seifert.) Wendell Tyler, Keena Turner, there are several more that retired rather than being cut.

What this tells me is Walsh stayed until the players got older and Seifert cleaned up the mess after Seifert made one last run with Walsh's players. Debartolo' legal problems was the greatest factor in the decline of the 49ers.
 
Double Barrel said:
That was a Bill Walsh philosophy. I did not realize that until a recent "A Football Life" documentary on Walsh. His attitude was that he only wanted a player's best years. Loyalty was never an option to him when trying to maintain a consistently winning franchise.
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steelbtexan said:
Lets just say I think the best way to build a consistent SB contender is the Walsh/Belicheck way. Rather than the Texan way.
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steelbtexan said:
What this tells me is Walsh stayed until the players got older and Seifert cleaned up the mess after Seifert made one last run with Walsh's players.
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Aaah, I see. So no Walsh examples and what everyone was really talking about was Siefert cleaning up Walsh's "mess."

steelbtexan said:
Before being cut. You should take the time to go back and look at the 49ers rosters for a 5 yr period under Walsh.

I know under Seifert.) Wendell Tyler, Keena Turner, there are several more that retired rather than being cut.
Click to expand...

Ummm, maybe you're the one that needs to go back and do a little more research because your assertions are the ones coming up short. You know, Walsh magically becoming synonymous with Siefert. Now "before the ends of their careers" becoming the same as retired.

steelbtexan said:
... are examples of the 49ers letting guys go/cutting them before the end of their careers.
Click to expand...

You're barking up the wrong tree with Walsh. Great case can be made for Belichick - Seymour, Mankins, Asante Samuel, Ty Law, Adam Vinitieri. See how easy it is when the facts match?
 
steelbtexan said:
Not going to take the time to look it up.
Click to expand...

Well here are the 1981 and 1984 SB winning Niner probowlers:

Randy Cross - retired.
Ronnie Lott - Siefert.
Fred Dean - retired.
Dwight Hicks - 1 year in Indy as a non-starter.
Dwight Clark - retired.
Joe Montana - Siefert.
Keith Fahnhorst - retired.
Fred Quillan - retired.
Keena Turner - retired.
Wendell Tyler - retired.
Carlton Williamson - retired.

High end players under Walsh were not being cut loose before the end of their careers.
 
infantrycak said:
Well here are the 1981 and 1984 SB winning Niner probowlers:

Randy Cross - retired.
Ronnie Lott - Siefert.
Fred Dean - retired.
Dwight Hicks - 1 year in Indy as a non-starter.
Dwight Clark - retired.
Joe Montana - Siefert.
Keith Fahnhorst - retired.
Fred Quillan - retired.
Keena Turner - retired.
Wendell Tyler - retired.
Carlton Williamson - retired.

High end players under Walsh were not being cut loose before the end of their careers.
Click to expand...

Must we let facts get in the way?
 
ObsiWan said:
well... some of us are funny that way
:)
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True

It was a different time in the NFL. There wasn't FA until the last yrs of Walsh.

Tell me about the 90's Cowboys. BTW Jimmy Johnson is the GOAT. IMHO, better than Lombardi.

Larry Brown/Gogan/Stepnowski/any number of LB's/James Washington etc....
 
steelbtexan said:
True

It was a different time in the NFL. There wasn't FA until the last yrs of Walsh.

Tell me about the 90's Cowboys. BTW Jimmy Johnson is the GOAT. IMHO, better than Lombardi.

Larry Brown/Gogan/Stepnowski/any number of LB's/James Washington etc....
Click to expand...

Wide open free agency didn't hit until 1993.

You're not going to get what you're looking for from JJ. He was only in Dallas for 5 seasons and went out on top.

Stepnowski, Brown, Washington all left after JJ.

And you are deviating from the subject of getting rid of high end players before their careers are over. Stepnowski would qualify. Brown and Washington with their zero probowls would not.
 
infantrycak said:
Wide open free agency didn't hit until 1993.

You're not going to get what you're looking for from JJ. He was only in Dallas for 5 seasons and went out on top.

Stepnowski, Brown, Washington all left after JJ.

And you are deviating from the subject of getting rid of high end players before their careers are over. Stepnowski would qualify. Brown and Washington with their zero probowls would not.
Click to expand...

Plan B,

Washington and SB MVP Larry Brown signed huge contracts? Gogan was part of the best OL I've seen. Discounting the Bradshaw Steelers.

Getting back to AJ are you for keeping him at 14 mil next season?
 
steelbtexan said:
Plan B,

Washington and SB MVP Larry Brown signed huge contracts? Gogan was part of the best OL I've seen. Discounting the Bradshaw Steelers.

Getting back to AJ are you for keeping him at 14 mil next season?
Click to expand...

Washington and Brown were not stars on the Cowboys. That's like letting Barwin and Quinn go - absolutely no connection to the topic of star players. And again, that was after JJ.

Gogan was a cog which was mixed and matched around the line and did a great job filling in. Another player who never made the probowl as a Cowboy.

I have stated several times my preference is to knock AJ's cap hit down thru a 2 year extension. If that is not possible I would see what the market is on FAs and would expect in the end to keep AJ after not being able to find an alternate with any significant savings.

In that regard, I don't think your estimates for Cobb are realistic. I think he ends up signing in GB or elsewhere for something in the $10 mil ballpark.
 
infantrycak said:
Washington and Brown were not stars on the Cowboys. That's like letting Barwin and Quinn go - absolutely no connection to the topic of star players. And again, that was after JJ.

Gogan was a cog which was mixed and matched around the line and did a great job filling in. Another player who never made the probowl as a Cowboy.

I have stated several times my preference is to knock AJ's cap hit down thru a 2 year extension. If that is not possible I would see what the market is on FAs and would expect in the end to keep AJ after not being able to find an alternate with any significant savings.

In that regard, I don't think your estimates for Cobb are realistic. I think he ends up signing in GB or elsewhere for something in the $10 mil ballpark.
Click to expand...

Let me say I thought Gogan was a lot better than you give him credit for He also played well for the 49ers.

10 mil is about right for Cobb and I would let AJ go to get a deal with Cobb done.

When you say extend him 2 more yrs are you talking about to the 2018 season? If that's the case there's no way the Texans should even consider that.
 
steelbtexan said:
Let me say I thought Gogan was a lot better than you give him credit for He also played well for the 49ers.

10 mil is about right for Cobb and I would let AJ go to get a deal with Cobb done.

When you say extend him 2 more yrs are you talking about to the 2018 season? If that's the case there's no way the Texans should even consider that.
Click to expand...

Gogan was very good but on the Cowboys he was the plug and play guy who was put in when something went wrong. I was a Cowboys fan thru this time period so I don't undervalue him at all. He was a better Zach Weigert.

Cobb is an undersized WR playing with the game's best young QB. He's a setup to get overpaid and then dissapoint.

Yes and we'll agree to disagree on that one. I made a suggestion up thread for an extension that would halve his cap hits and leave him or the Texans able to easily retire or part in the extended years.
 
Why are average to OK players getting cut being compared to arguably one of the best WRs to ever play the game ?

Makes no sense.
 
infantrycak said:
Washington and Brown were not stars on the Cowboys. That's like letting Barwin and Quinn go - absolutely no connection to the topic of star players. And again, that was after JJ.

Gogan was a cog which was mixed and matched around the line and did a great job filling in. Another player who never made the probowl as a Cowboy.

I have stated several times my preference is to knock AJ's cap hit down thru a 2 year extension. If that is not possible I would see what the market is on FAs and would expect in the end to keep AJ after not being able to find an alternate with any significant savings.

In that regard, I don't think your estimates for Cobb are realistic. I think he ends up signing in GB or elsewhere for something in the $10 mil ballpark.
Click to expand...
MHO, letting Quin walk, especially after the Reed fiasco, was a pretty big mistake. He's done pretty well at Detroit. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Q/QuinGl99.htm
 
infantrycak said:
What makes you think Reed wasn't their target all along?
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I'm not saying that Reed wasn't. I'm saying the Texans made a mistake by letting Quin walk and sign a very reasonable contract in Detroit. History proves my point. And the :tinfoil: was directed at the diabolical plot comment. More of a really bad personnel decision by Smith than anything else.
 
DocBar said:
I'm not saying that Reed wasn't. I'm saying the Texans made a mistake by letting Quin walk and sign a very reasonable contract in Detroit. History proves my point. And the :tinfoil: was directed at the diabolical plot comment. More of a really bad personnel decision by Smith than anything else.
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yes they made a huge mistake be letting Quin leave

and the plot comment was "tongue in cheek" as I'm sure you know
 
DocBar said:
I'm not saying that Reed wasn't. I'm saying the Texans made a mistake by letting Quin walk and sign a very reasonable contract in Detroit. History proves my point. And the :tinfoil: was directed at the diabolical plot comment. More of a really bad personnel decision by Smith than anything else.
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Clearly a mistake. Seems like one that was universal except maybe Wade.
 
DocBar said:
Expound upon the Wade comment....


?
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Well things seem to point to Mchair being particularly in favor of Reed. I'd say it's a reasonable guess with Reed being a DB Smith was in favor too or it wouldn't have happened. AJ clearly was and probably gave the Texans some comfort Reed would tell him if he wasn't good to go (wonder how they get along now?). But Wade was kind of silent until iirc near the release when he made some comments which sounded like Reed rubbed him the wrong way and that he hadn't been talked to about the release. So it just leaves a smell of maybe Wade never was on board. Or maybe Reed was just an ass thinking Wade should call all the coverages he would and Wade got tired of it.
 
infantrycak said:
Well things seem to point to Mchair being particularly in favor of Reed. I'd say it's a reasonable guess with Reed being a DB Smith was in favor too or it wouldn't have happened. AJ clearly was and probably gave the Texans some comfort Reed would tell him if he wasn't good to go (wonder how they get along now?). But Wade was kind of silent until iirc near the release when he made some comments which sounded like Reed rubbed him the wrong way and that he hadn't been talked to about the release. So it just leaves a smell of maybe Wade never was on board. Or maybe Reed was just an ass thinking Wade should call all the coverages he would and Wade got tired of it.
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Hence "fiasco". "nuff said.
 
For comparison's sake (albeit a bad one), read that Torrey Smith, prior to the 2014 season, turned down a 5yr $35m deal that had $19m guaranteed from Baltimore.

I also think Houston needs to wait to see what happens with Fitzgerald in Arizona, if they work out a salary reduction, could be a good model for Johnson.
 
Troy Chapman said:
For comparison's sake (albeit a bad one), read that Torrey Smith, prior to the 2014 season, turned down a 5yr $35m deal that had $19m guaranteed from Baltimore.

I also think Houston needs to wait to see what happens with Fitzgerald in Arizona, if they work out a salary reduction, could be a good model for Johnson.
Click to expand...

Don't ask me for a link, but I seem to recall the talking heads chatting about Fitzgerald's future with the Cards (it was during their playoff game) due to his humongous cap hit next year. They were thinking he'd be a cap casualty.
 
ObsiWan said:
Don't ask me for a link, but I seem to recall the talking heads chatting about Fitzgerald's future with the Cards (it was during their playoff game) due to his humongous cap hit next year. They were thinking he'd be a cap casualty.
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PFT reported Arians desperately wants Fitz back.
 
ObsiWan said:
Don't ask me for a link, but I seem to recall the talking heads chatting about Fitzgerald's future with the Cards (it was during their playoff game) due to his humongous cap hit next year. They were thinking he'd be a cap casualty.
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Folks have talked about it but all signs point to it not being true. The Cardinals have thrown away all leverage (bizarrely) and said they would keep him at his full $23.6 mil cap hit if they can't work out a deal. You rarely see such a definitive statement. Last report is they are working on a new contract and the GM said he was confident it would happen.

This is with Fitz being 3 years removed from a 1000 yd season and coming off 784 yds.

As an FYI - the Cards will have $14.4 mil in dead money if they dump him. Fitz is signed through 2018 so any redo looks like it will be a straight up pay cut probably linked to guarantees.
 
infantrycak said:
Folks have talked about it but all signs point to it not being true. The Cardinals have thrown away all leverage (bizarrely) and said they would keep him at his full $23.6 mil cap hit if they can't work out a deal. You rarely see such a definitive statement. Last report is they are working on a new contract and the GM said he was confident it would happen.

This is with Fitz being 3 years removed from a 1000 yd season and coming off 784 yds.

As an FYI - the Cards will have $14.4 mil in dead money if they dump him. Fitz is signed through 2018 so any redo looks like it will be a straight up pay cut probably linked to guarantees.
Click to expand...

Which is why it would be a good example for Johnson if that happens.
 
thunderkyss said:
Is that good or bad from a franchise POV?
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I don't see how you can view it as anything other than bad. That's a ridiculous amount of money tied up in a position other than elite QB.

How many teams have won a SB or conference championship, in the salary cap era, with such a high % of the cap taken up by a WR? I can't think of one off the top of my head. Maybe the Colts?
 
I'm of the opinion that I want AJ back at a reduced price for the season. If it comes to no middle ground I would choose keeping him over cutting him. If I thought the Texans were going to be big spenders in FA then sure cut him. If they are just going to trot out the same trio of QBs this year, might as well just pay Andre.
 
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