How much is Andre worth to you?

[infantrycak]

There was nothing on the market that would indicate he wouldn't take such a deal. He has zero guaranteed money at the moment, prospect of another $10 million might have been interesting for Johnson's camp.

It's not another. It's the $11.5 he is owed for this season and you're just saying play extra for the same money. Players walk that deal all the time. Someone would give him a 2 year $12 mil deal and he'd rather do that for being disrespected and having McNair back his word. And while he's at it would leave $7 mil dead on the Texans cap.

Maybe you think you can sell apples in a garden.

 

[Troy Chapman]

It's not another. It's the $11.5 he is owed for this season and you're just saying play extra for the same money. Players walk that deal all the time. Someone would give him a 2 year $12 mil deal and he'd rather do that for being disrespected and having McNair back his word. And while he's at it would leave $7 mil dead on the Texans cap.

Maybe you think you can sell apples in a garden.

Then give him $12 million guaranteed for the last two years of his deal if that is market value. Why do you want to pay him more? I am fine leaving the deal as is and re-evaluating after the 2015 season.

 

[infantrycak]

Then give him $12 million guaranteed for the last two years of his deal if that is market value. Why do you want to pay him more? I am fine leaving the deal as is and re-evaluating after the 2015 season.

I'm not paying more. I'm suggesting paying the same and guaranteeing it in exchange for:

2 more years of play
reduced cap hits
an end to player and team uncertainty/disgruntlement

Keeping him under his deal for 2015 is fine too but I don't think as beneficial. And I think a lot of folks are ignoring McNair's intent to have AJ retire a Texan. Better to deal with that in the equation rather than just wish it away.

 

[Troy Chapman]

If you are searching for cap space, there are other ways to find it. I don't see a reason to lock yourself for 4 years with no way out (outside of a trade) at $24m vs. just leaving his contract as it at $23.5m while keeping your flexibility.

 

[JB]

If you are searching for cap space, there are other ways to find it. I don't see a reason to lock yourself for 4 years with no way out (outside of a trade) at $24m vs. just leaving his contract as it at $23.5m while keeping your flexibility.

Would you be willing to guarantee that $23.5m?


Uncertainty about the future is AJ's primary concern right now. He stayed away during OTA's because he was worried about being cut and not receiving the money rightfully due him. He has bent over backwards to help the organization in the past, why shouldn't the Texans give him the security he deserves and was told he would have?

 

[Troy Chapman]

Would you be willing to guarantee that $23.5m?


Uncertainty about the future is AJ's primary concern right now. He stayed away during OTA's because he was worried about being cut and not receiving the money rightfully due him. He has bent over backwards to help the organization in the past, why shouldn't the Texans give him the security he deserves and was told he would have?

No. Johnson already has some serious incentives in his contract. He continues playing well not only will he get his $23.5 million but an additional $4 or $5 million.

 

[DocBar]

If you decide that putting AJ retiring with the Texans being the only team he plays for. Kicking the can even further down the road is putting AJ ahead of the team even more.

I propose that the Texans pay AJ for the next 2 yrs (If they must) take their medicine and add young talent in the meantime. Hopefully making themselves playoff contenders and using AJ's cap room when he retires on impact FA's that can put them over the top. That would be my plan since I cant see the Texans winning the SB in the next 2 yrs.

What Icak proposed is the only deal I've seen that makes a lick of sense. I've been on the "cut AJ at $16M (cap hit) and save almost $9M this season" for a while now.

 

[JB]

No. Johnson already has some serious incentives in his contract. He continues playing well not only will he get his $23.5 million but an additional $4 or $5 million.

But wouldn't it make more sense to help the team cap wise AND have a happier, more productive player for it?

If you're worried about the cap hits in '17 & 18, keep in mind that we already know the cap will be going up significantly before/by then.

 

[steelbtexan]

If you are searching for cap space, there are other ways to find it. I don't see a reason to lock yourself for 4 years with no way out (outside of a trade) at $24m vs. just leaving his contract as it at $23.5m while keeping your flexibility.

^^^^
This is what I was talking about when I was talking about kicking the can down the road. Let AJ play out the next 2 yrs and be done with that contract. I'm OK but not thrilled with guaranteeing it if McNair is dead set about AJ retiring as a Texan.

 

[JB]

^^^^
This is what I was talking about when I was talking about kicking the can down the road. Let AJ play out the next 2 yrs and be done with that contract.

I thought your stance was that the Texans needed to be "players" in the free agent marketplace?

 

[steelbtexan]

I thought your stance was that the Texans needed to be "players" in the free agent marketplace?

They do need to be. IMHO

But the Texans aren't my team and since McNair wants AJ to retire a Texan then paying AJ and being done with the contract is the way to go.

Personally I would tell AJ we will guarantee you 7-8 mil with another 5 mil in likely to be earned incentives. If AJ doesn't accept that then I let him walk.

 

[JB]

They do need to be. IMHO

But the Texans aren't my team and since McNair wants AJ to retire a Texan then paying AJ and being done with the contract is the way to go.

Personally I would tell AJ we will guarantee you 7-8 mil with another 5 mil in likely to be earned incentives. If AJ doesn't accept that then I let him walk.

?

He's owed $10.5m for this season alone. Because the Texans wanted it that way.

How many free agents you think are gonna want to come here knowing we lie to our players and get rid of them as soon as it's profitable to us?

You want us to model after the Cleveland Browns or something?

 

[EllisUnit]

Not that he would understand,

Looks like they are going to ride out AJ's contract for the last 2 yrs as is. Not the way I would do it, but if McNair is one thing it's loyal to a fault. Fans need to hope AJ finds the fountain of youth.

Fountain of Youth ? He is one full season removed from a 1400 yard season with 4 different QBs. Fitz isn't exactly known as a gun slinger, but look what AJ did when case came in

No need for a fountain of youth, a real QB will be plenty.

 

[badboy]

As I've said before all AJ has to do to play out his contract is play well, 1000 yds will probably do it despite cap. Let's wait until we see if a FA we covet is drooling to sign with us before we begin scrabbling for cap space. Joseph gone (trade hopefully) and Watt are two places to look. We've already discussed a reworked or cut Graham + Fitz' $ 2015 will probably get Mallett.

 

[steelbtexan]

?

He's owed $10.5m for this season alone. Because the Texans wanted it that way.

How many free agents you think are gonna want to come here knowing we lie to our players and get rid of them as soon as it's profitable to us?

You want us to model after the Cleveland Browns or something?

If the Texans are truly modeling themselves after the Pats they should ask themselves what would the Pats do.

The Texans are hardly ever players in FA, so this is a non issue to me.

 

[JB]

If the Texans are truly modeling themselves after the Pats they should ask themselves what would the Pats do.

The Texans are hardly ever players in FA, so this is a non issue to me.

The Pats are in a bit of a different situation now, as you well know. They use to be Brownesque. Before Parcells and Bledsoe, no decent FA would go there

 

[EllisUnit]

As I've said before all AJ has to do to play out his contract is play well, 1000 yds will probably do it despite cap. Let's wait until we see if a FA we covet is drooling to sign with us before we begin scrabbling for cap space. Joseph gone (trade hopefully) and Watt are two places to look. We've already discussed a reworked or cut Graham + Fitz' $ 2015 will probably get Mallett.

Never mention Watt when talking trades or Cuts....NEVER

 

[steelbtexan]

As I've said before all AJ has to do to play out his contract is play well, 1000 yds will probably do it despite cap. Let's wait until we see if a FA we covet is drooling to sign with us before we begin scrabbling for cap space. Joseph gone (trade hopefully) and Watt are two places to look. We've already discussed a reworked or cut Graham + Fitz' $ 2015 will probably get Mallett.

Hopefully you're correct about AJ and 1000 yds.

 

[infantrycak]

As I've said before all AJ has to do to play out his contract is play well, 1000 yds will probably do it despite cap. Let's wait until we see if a FA we covet is drooling to sign with us before we begin scrabbling for cap space. Joseph gone (trade hopefully) and Watt are two places to look. We've already discussed a reworked or cut Graham + Fitz' $ 2015 will probably get Mallett.

Watt should be the last resort rather than AJ. The Texans made a wise cap decision to absorb a major hit on the cap for him early on in his contract to avoid exactly the current AJ situation. Redoing him does kick the can down the road whereas redoing AJ along the lines I suggested does not.

 

[Troy Chapman]

Watt should be the last resort rather than AJ. The Texans made a wise cap decision to absorb a major hit on the cap for him early on in his contract to avoid exactly the current AJ situation. Redoing him does kick the can down the road whereas redoing AJ along the lines I suggested does not.

Agreed nor do I expect them to adjust Watt's roster bonus. Once March 24th comes, they won't be able to adjust it anyhow.

 

[ObsiWan]

The Pats are in a bit of a different situation now, as you well know. They use to be Brownesque. Before Parcells and Bledsoe, no decent FA would go there

Not to mention the Pats have Brady as a selling point. With TB under center (or more accurately, in the shotgun) F/A's know they have a damned good shot at going deep into the playoffs.

You take our muddled QB situation (compared to the Pats) and compound that by shafting an AJ after he helped generate cap space by restructuring you'll have to pay a premium to get quality F/A's to come here. Bad for future business.

 

[steelbtexan]

Not to mention the Pats have Brady as a selling point. With TB under center (or more accurately, in the shotgun) F/A's know they have a damned good shot at going deep into the playoffs.

You take our muddled QB situation (compared to the Pats) and compound that by shafting an AJ after he helped generate cap space by restructuring you'll have to pay a premium to get quality F/A's to come here. Bad for future business.

You have to pay the top FA's to come here anyways because of what you listed above. So it's really inconsequential to me. Not that the Texans are in the high end FA market which is part of the problem. IMHO

Sad to see Denver is 26 mil under the cap and is about to restructure Manning to create even more cap room. How far are the Texans under the cap and how are they supposed to compete with teams like the Broncos, who already have a better talent base than the Texans?

 

[Marshall]

You have to pay the top FA's to come here anyways because of what you listed above. So it's really inconsequential to me. Not that the Texans are in the high end FA market which is part of the problem. IMHO

Sad to see Denver is 26 mil under the cap and is about to restructure Manning to create even more cap room. How far are the Texans under the cap and how are they supposed to compete with teams like the Broncos, who already have a better talent base than the Texans?

I wonder how often the winner of the excess cap game actually shows improvement the next year? For some reason I expect the winners to be in the middle like a bell curve.

 

[JB]

You have to pay the top FA's to come here anyways because of what you listed above. So it's really inconsequential to me. Not that the Texans are in the high end FA market which is part of the problem. IMHO

Sad to see Denver is 26 mil under the cap and is about to restructure Manning to create even more cap room. How far are the Texans under the cap and how are they supposed to compete with teams like the Broncos, who already have a better talent base than the Texans?

They also have a shitload of fa's to try to keep to maintain that higher talent level.

Player Pos. 2014 Team Type Current Avg./Year
Wes Welker WR
Broncos
UFA $6,000,000
Demaryius Thomas WR
Broncos
UFA $2,830,100
Terrance Knighton 43DT
Broncos
UFA $2,250,000
Jacob Tamme TE
Broncos
UFA $1,700,000
Mitch Unrein 43DT
Broncos
UFA $1,431,000
Will Montgomery C
Broncos
UFA $1,325,000
Rahim Moore S
Broncos
UFA $1,112,032
Orlando Franklin LG
Broncos
UFA $1,089,000
Tony Carter CB
Broncos
RFA $730,000
Nate Irving LB
Broncos
UFA $683,750
Quinton Carter S
Broncos
UFA $623,750
Virgil Green TE
Broncos
UFA $527,250
Brandon Marshall ILB
Broncos
ERFA $495,000
Aaron Brewer LS
Broncos
RFA $481,333
Steven Johnson LB
Broncos
RFA $439,000
Julius Thomas TE
Broncos
UFA $420,750
John Youboty 43DE
Broncos
ERFA $420,000
Paul Cornick RT
Broncos
ERFA $420,000
Ben Garland RG
Broncos
ERFA $420,000

 

[thunderkyss]

Sad to see Denver is 26 mil under the cap and is about to restructure Manning to create even more cap room. How far are the Texans under the cap and how are they supposed to compete with teams like the Broncos, who already have a better talent base than the Texans?

Through the draft, UDFA, & going after 2nd tier FAs with something to prove.

If we could have got one more win last season, win ourselves a play off spot, it would have gone a long way to helping Houston become a destination.

As it stands, at least our new HC has a winning record. That will be one of the things FAs look for.

 

[infantrycak]

They also have a shitload of fa's to try to keep to maintain that higher talent level.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that starting point matters? - and that the starting point is not last year's team, but the one under contract for next year that is projecting all the free cap space?

 

[JB]

Why is it so hard for people to understand that starting point matters? - and that the starting point is not last year's team, but the one under contract for next year that is projecting all the free cap space?

it doesn't fit the agenda

Ignoring facts and making broad base assumptions does

 

[badboy]

Never mention Watt when talking trades or Cuts....NEVER

I think most understood that I have mentioned often that Watt's first year allows for his cap to be reduced converting a lot to bonus. I'm not suggesting anything else. lol

 

[badboy]

Watt should be the last resort rather than AJ. The Texans made a wise cap decision to absorb a major hit on the cap for him early on in his contract to avoid exactly the current AJ situation. Redoing him does kick the can down the road whereas redoing AJ along the lines I suggested does not.

replied to a similar post of yours elsewhere or maybe this thread agreeing with you but if a candidate like Bulauga is available
then kick the can I be doin.

 

[infantrycak]

replied to a similar post of yours elsewhere or maybe this thread agreeing with you but if a candidate like Bulauga is available
then kick the can I be doin.

Well I thought this was a little different. If Bulaga is a play they want to make and they need cap to do so I would rather see them first free cap by killing two birds and working something out with AJ rather than kicking the can with Watt. As I said, Watt should be last resort and IMO comes only if they are trying to be more major players and sign Bulaga and Worilds (or some equivalent combination), i.e. need more than just what AJ can free up.

 

[ObsiWan]

You have to pay the top FA's to come here anyways because of what you listed above. So it's really inconsequential to me. Not that the Texans are in the high end FA market which is part of the problem. IMHO

Sad to see Denver is 26 mil under the cap and is about to restructure Manning to create even more cap room. How far are the Texans under the cap and how are they supposed to compete with teams like the Broncos, who already have a better talent base than the Texans?

If Denver was doing such a fab job how come they have so much of their fire power hitting the F/A mkt at the same time? That seems like awful poor contract timing/planning to me. It's going to cost Denver all the cap room they have - and then some - just to re-sign 1/2 to 2/3rds of them.

 

[steelbtexan]

If Denver was doing such a fab job how come they have so much of their fire power hitting the F/A mkt at the same time? That seems like awful poor contract timing/planning to me. It's going to cost Denver all the cap room they have - and then some - just to re-sign 1/2 to 2/3rds of them.

We shall see,

They probably will let J.Thomas go due to ankle injuries.

Want to make a bet, Denver will re-sign all of their meaningful FA's and add a couple of playmakers in FA.

Are you jealous of the way Elway & co manage the cap vs how Smith used to manage the cap before the BOB hire? I know that I am.

 

[infantrycak]

We shall see,

They probably will let J.Thomas go due to ankle injuries.

Want to make a bet, Denver will re-sign all of their meaningful FA's and add a couple of playmakers in FA.

Are you jealous of the way Elway & co manage the cap vs how Smith used to manage the cap before the BOB hire? I know that I am.

So Smith and the cap guy are the same but any improvement automatically goes to OB who to our knowledge has no involvement with contract issues?

 

[eriadoc]

This is the modern day NFL we're talking about. If AJ's performance last year was indicative of a genuine decline, then you don't want to pay him any longer or any more than you absolutely have to. Hence, AJ would not retire a Texan unless you pay him long past his expiration date. If last year was an aberration, then you can't predict when the decline will come, and will put off the former corollary until some point in the future, when this will repeat itself. Either way, I seriously doubt AJ finished out his playing days as a Texan. Dream didn't finish out as a Rocket, Earl didn't finish as an Oiler, Nolan didn't finish as an Astro ... hell, Jerry Freakin' Rice didn't finish a 49er. Nor did Montana.

Pay the man whatever he's actually worth and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe that means an incentive laden contract. Maybe it means he finishes out his career as a Vancouver Grizzly. Whatever. These things get patched up after retirement, typically.

 

[thunderkyss]

They probably will let J.Thomas go due to ankle injuries.

Do you think we should go after J.Thomas?


If he were a Texan, drafted four years ago & we decided to let him go, what would you think about our F.O.?

 

[thunderkyss]

This is the modern day NFL we're talking about. If AJ's performance last year was indicative of a genuine decline, then you don't want to pay him any longer or any more than you absolutely have to.

Pay the man whatever he's actually worth and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe that means an incentive laden contract. Maybe it means he finishes out his career as a Vancouver Grizzly. Whatever. These things get patched up after retirement, typically.

That's fine. One of the reason I started this poll, was to help us get our heads around the money we're talking about. Most of us don't deal with these types of numbers on a daily basis & the true "value" of an NFL WR is a bit out of our wheel house.

There were also those guys who want to get rid of Andre no matter what. If RS was able to put together a package that saved us more cap space than actually cutting Andre, they'd still rather he go. Or at least that's their rhetoric.

 

[ObsiWan]

They also have a shitload of fa's to try to keep to maintain that higher talent level.

Player Pos. 2014 Team Type Current Avg./Year
Wes Welker WR
Broncos
UFA $6,000,000
Demaryius Thomas WR
Broncos
UFA $2,830,100
Terrance Knighton 43DT
Broncos
UFA $2,250,000
Jacob Tamme TE
Broncos
UFA $1,700,000
Mitch Unrein 43DT
Broncos
UFA $1,431,000
Will Montgomery C
Broncos
UFA $1,325,000
Rahim Moore S
Broncos
UFA $1,112,032
Orlando Franklin LG
Broncos
UFA $1,089,000
Tony Carter CB
Broncos
RFA $730,000
Nate Irving LB
Broncos
UFA $683,750
Quinton Carter S
Broncos
UFA $623,750
Virgil Green TE
Broncos
UFA $527,250
Brandon Marshall ILB
Broncos
ERFA $495,000
Aaron Brewer LS
Broncos
RFA $481,333
Steven Johnson LB
Broncos
RFA $439,000
Julius Thomas TE
Broncos
UFA $420,750
John Youboty 43DE
Broncos
ERFA $420,000
Paul Cornick RT
Broncos
ERFA $420,000
Ben Garland RG
Broncos
ERFA $420,000

Originally Posted by steelbtexan
We shall see,

Want to make a bet, Denver will re-sign all of their meaningful FA's and add a couple of playmakers in FA.

Counter bet...
How about you pick the F/A's on that list that are "meaningful" must signs to maintain Denver's level of proficiency and we'll both see if Elway can sign them all while also managing to "add a couple of playmakers in FA".
To be clear, if Elway has to sign a different playmaker to make up for one he had to let walk, that's a fail.

 

[JB]

Counter bet...
How about you pick the F/A's on that list that are "meaningful" must signs to maintain Denver's level of proficiency and we'll both see if Elway can sign them all while also managing to "add a couple of playmakers in FA".
To be clear, if Elway has to sign a different playmaker to make up for one he had to let walk, that's a fail.

oooh! I want to see this!

 

[JB]

Counter bet...
How about you pick the F/A's on that list that are "meaningful" must signs to maintain Denver's level of proficiency and we'll both see if Elway can sign them all while also managing to "add a couple of playmakers in FA".
To be clear, if Elway has to sign a different playmaker to make up for one he had to let walk, that's a fail.

I'm concerned about steelb, anyone seen him this evening?

 

[JPPT1974]

Well it would depend. On how much they would pay him. To keep him. But really if they release him, the Texans could keep some money!

 

[JB]

Well it would depend. On how much they would pay him. To keep him. But really if they release him, the Texans could keep some money!

Norg, is that you?

 

[steelbtexan]

So Smith and the cap guy are the same but any improvement automatically goes to OB who to our knowledge has no involvement with contract issues?

Have you noticed the way the way Watt's contract is structured?

This hadn't happened in the 8 yrs of Smith before BOB was hired. Coincidence?

But that post was really about how the Broncos manage the cap vs the Texans.

 

[steelbtexan]

I would never sign Thomas to a big contract. Bad ankles.

 

[steelbtexan]

Counter bet...
How about you pick the F/A's on that list that are "meaningful" must signs to maintain Denver's level of proficiency and we'll both see if Elway can sign them all while also managing to "add a couple of playmakers in FA".
To be clear, if Elway has to sign a different playmaker to make up for one he had to let walk, that's a fail.

For sure they will re-sign D.Thomas/Marshall

Probably Moore/Knighton, unless Chicago Fox signs Knighton.

Everybody else will is replacable in FA/Draft or the replacement is already on the roster. J.Thomas/Tamme will be replaced by Virgil Green/OD/Draft pick.

Carter will stay as ST's guy if he comes cheap.

Montgomery was a stop gap and will be replaced. Franklin will most likely be replaced. Ramirez will move back to OG and a OT will be drafted. Unrein and all of the other guys are JAGS and are very replaceable. I think there is a good chance Irving is re-signed and hope the Texans look at signing him in FA.

Spending time with family and not going to look into this deeper tonight.

What do you think they will do? I know for certain Elway will leave no stone left unturned. The questions for me are

1. Can Manning stay healthy and not choke in the playoffs.
2. Can Kubiak shun his sitting on leads playing the % kind ofways. They bit him in the butt again last yr against the Pats in the playoffs.

 

[infantrycak]

Have you noticed the way the way Watt's contract is structured?

This hadn't happened in the 8 yrs of Smith before BOB was hired. Coincidence?

As a part time hack I've watched contracts evolve around the league and on the Texans. Pretty sure our cap guy who's paid a few hundred K to do just cap management is watching trends and coming up with things of his own. I doubt very seriously that OB is sitting around thinking about cap structures.

 

[steelbtexan]

As a part time hack I've watched contracts evolve around the league and on the Texans. Pretty sure our cap guy who's paid a few hundred K to do just cap management is watching trends and coming up with things of his own. I doubt very seriously that OB is sitting around thinking about cap structures.

So you don't believe in coincidence?

How come the Texans cant get ahead of the trends?

 

[infantrycak]

So you don't believe in coincidence?

How come the Texans cant get ahead of the trends?

I believe I have seen other changes (like Cushing's per game played roster bonus) before OB got here so I have no reason to believe this move is OB's. That and the fact it isn't in the least OB's job. You of course have an agenda.

You want to specify a trend and we can do research on where it originated and how it propagated. Absent that you are just assuming/making up that the Texans are behind.

 

[steelbtexan]

I believe I have seen other changes (like Cushing's per game played roster bonus) before OB got here so I have no reason to believe this move is OB's. That and the fact it isn't in the least OB's job. You of course have an agenda.

You want to specify a trend and we can do research on where it originated and how it propagated. Absent that you are just assuming/making up that the Texans are behind.

Agenda?

One thing is sure times need to change over on Kirby.

 

[JB]

For sure they will re-sign D.Thomas/Marshall

Probably Moore/Knighton, unless Chicago Fox signs Knighton.

Everybody else will is replacable in FA/Draft or the replacement is already on the roster.

So only 3 of 17 guys is meaningful? But their roster is so much more talented than ours? I'm not buying it. If they resign green instead of Tamme, does that make him meaningful too? Knighton is meaningful, unless someone else signs him?

Dude, your just bashing now and don't want to give any credit to anyone you don't like

 

[JB]

Agenda?

One thing is sure times need to change over on Kirby.

All you have to do is not renew your season tickets, and change is there