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Hopkins traded to Cardinals?

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I give you credit for trying to put a positive spin on this trade, but I totally disagree with this post. Yes. At times, Watson forced the ball to Hopkins. All QBs do that with their most reliable WR. Last year Watson targeted Hopkins 150 times. That was fewer than than 163 times last year and the 174 the year before were Watson did not play a full season.
  • In 13 years, Peyton Manning targeted Marvin Harrison 118, 117, 122, 184, 169, 205, 142, 139, 134, 148, 32 and 107 times
  • During that same period, Manning also targeted Reggie Wayne 107, 115, 122, 137, 156, 131, 149, and 175 times
  • The last four years, Drew Brees has targeted Michael Thomas 121, 149, 147 and 185 times.
  • Over the last three years, Brady has targeted Edelman 159, 108 and 153 times
  • Before injuries started slowing him down. Gronkowski was targeted 131, 120, and 105 times
  • Since 2014, Matt Ryan has targeted Julio Jones, 163, 203, 129, 148, 170, and 157 times
  • Since becoming a starter, Mahomes has targeted Travis Kelce 150 and 136 times
  • Since becoming a starter, Mahomes has targeted Tyreek Hill 137 and 89 times in a season where he only played 12 games.
Looking at the numbers, Watson is throwing to his #1 WR as often as other QBs are throwing to their #1 WRs. Read the field better? Who else was getting open as consistently as Hopkins? During his rookie season, Coutee was getting open and Watson found him without any problems. When the TEs were part of the game plan, he targeted them.

Watching Brady struggle without Gronk and then telling me taking away a QB's #1 target can lead to a more productive passing offense is like urinating on my head and calling it rain.
Looks like Brady/Mahomes and for that matter Manning spread the ball around to atleast receivers.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Looks like Brady/Mahomes and for that matter Manning spread the ball around to atleast receivers.
Your point? Stills only started 5 games, but Watson targeted him 55 times. Fuller started 11 games and was targeted 71 times. So, between Stills and Fuller they had 126 targets.

The point of my post was when you compare the other #1 targets on a team, Watson was targeting Hopkins the same number of times as other QBs. Again, I'm not saying at times, Watson didn't force the ball to Hopkins, but to act like he targeted Hopkins more than other QBs target their leading receiver is false.
 
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OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
Good post. Doesn't change my opinion that Watson is not playing his best game and he has room for improvement.
Well, lets get Watson to a team that can coax his best games out of him b/c it certainly isn't going to happen during the OB reign. Put him on the market and lets see if teams avoid him like the plague.......my guess, the interest would be extremely high. Matter of a fact, it'd backfire on OB and the press would continue to paint OB as being as bad as advertised in every facet of his existence with the Texans.

Worth asking, would any of you guys that want to see Watson moved....trust OB to make the trade?
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I agree with you. Watson has not reached his ceiling and has room for improvement. I can even list want he needs to improve. But, that's not the point. Name one QB in recent NFL history that had his #1 WR traded during their prime and how did it impact the QB?
T.O. is the 1st one that comes to mind. Traded probably not but let wlk there are many. Bottom line is Nuk wanted a new deal and the McNair's dont do that. So BOB cut the best deal he could (I disagree for the reasons I've already stated many times) and moved on.

I get why fans dont like this move. (I dont either.)
 

OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
T.O. is the 1st one that comes to mind. Traded probably not but let wlk there are many. Bottom line is Nuk wanted a new deal and the McNair's dont do that. So BOB cut the best deal he could (I disagree for the reasons I've already stated many times) and moved on.

I get why fans dont like this move. (I dont either.)
Never say never when Watt was afforded a new deal before his current deal at the time had expired. Has Watt delivered the goods on his current contract?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Well, lets get Watson to a team that can coax his best games out of him b/c it certainly isn't going to happen during the OB reign. Put him on the market and lets see if teams avoid him like the plague.......my guess, the interest would be extremely high. Matter of a fact, it'd backfire on OB and the press would continue to paint OB as being as bad as advertised in every facet of his existence with the Texans.

Worth asking, would any of you guys that want to see Watson moved....trust OB to make the trade?
They need to move on from DW4 because they cant win a championship with him unless he's willing to change. This is the time to trade him while his value is at it's highest.

If you want the Chargers pick at #6 and a 3rd plus a 1st and extra next yr then now is the time to make this trade.

It really comes down to if you think DW4 can win a SB or not.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Your point? Stills only started 5 games, but Watson targeted him 55 times. Fuller started 11 games and was targeted 71 times. So, between Stills and Fuller they had 126 targets.

The point of my post was when you compare the other #1 targets on a team, Watson was targeting Hopkins the same number of times as other QBs. Again, I'm not saying at times, Watson didn't force the ball to Hopkins, but to act like he targeted Hopkins more than other QBs target their leading receiver is false.
Lets move on, because we aren't going to agree.

Lets talk about the future and how the targets are going to be spread out.I'm going to start a thread about this.

One things for sure DW4's going to have to grow since he's lost his blankey.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Lets move on, because we aren't going to agree.

Lets talk about the future and how the targets are going to be spread out.I'm going to start a thread about this.

One things for sure DW4's going to have to grow since he's lost his blankey.
Considering in the three years before Watson was even drafted, Hopkins was targeted 127, 192, and 151 times by Texans’ QBs not named Watson, maybe you should also asked what will O’Brien do without his blankey consistently winning his matchup.

:bubble:
 
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badboy

Hall of Fame
BS. Vinny was a heavy handed mod who was quick to suspend and ban people. This board has always had the clicks and groups of people. The difference now is the mods allow you to speak freely without coming down on you. I was banned FOR LIFE by Vinny back in 07. So don’t tell me he was fair and a good mod.
I laughed when you criticized posters for always discussing DW4 or BOB when you do the same thing. A topic is about OB and you manage to inject DW4 into the conversation while also bringing up Rick smith. You’re no saint. You and Tex are the worst ones. If a topic is about frustrations over something OB does then don’t read it. You should know exactly what the conversation is going to be like.
Just curious but you indicate Vinny was unfair to you and maybe he was. Would it not be fair to say exactly what you did to be banned for life and also how you were able to return to the board?
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Considering in the three years before Watson was even drafted, Hopkins was targeted 127, 192, and 151 times by Texans’ QBs not named Watson, maybe you should also asked what will O’Brien do without his blankey consistently winning his matchup.

:bubble:
I wish I knew where you came up with those numbers. That's amazing to me considering the crappy QB play. Nuk's numbers came from volume. (Not saying he's not a great talent)

I'm actually looking forward to seeing how Kelly distributes those numbers.

Things are going to be fine. But DW4's going to have to change. The best thing that could happen to DW4 is for WFV to stay healthy. DW4 has the same kind of connection with WFV that he had with Nuk.

I saw an article that suggested trading Stills for Watkins. This will cost an extra 14 mil for next yr only and I think you might be able to get a late rd pick to take Watkins off of the Chiefs hands.

BTW, Watkins was a #1 WR that got traded.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
It seems like a reasonable concern of many that Watson may not be as effective without Hopkins. How does this impact Watson getting a new contract and for how much? Does this encouraged him to sign more quickly for a possibly lesser amount? Does this impact the Texans ownership Not willing to pay him as much guaranteed money? IMO, neither side will decide until FA and draft over, then movement could begin.
 

Earl34

Veteran
I wish I knew where you came up with those numbers. That's amazing to me considering the crappy QB play. Nuk's numbers came from volume. (Not saying he's not a great talent)

I'm actually looking forward to seeing how Kelly distributes those numbers.

Things are going to be fine. But DW4's going to have to change. The best thing that could happen to DW4 is for WFV to stay healthy. DW4 has the same kind of connection with WFV that he had with Nuk.

I saw an article that suggested trading Stills for Watkins. This will cost an extra 14 mil for next yr only and I think you might be able to get a late rd pick to take Watkins off of the Chiefs hands.

BTW, Watkins was a #1 WR that got traded.
It's funny you mentioned Watkins. A couple of weeks ago, Hopkins tweeted about a reunion with Watkins. I think he was endorsing Watkins joining the Texans. I got the numbers from Pro Football Reference. Maybe targeting Hopkins was a feature of the Texans' offense which again makes my point that Watson is similar to most QBs targeting their #1 receivers.


1584935888254.png
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
I give you credit for trying to put a positive spin on this trade, but I totally disagree with this post. Yes. At times, Watson forced the ball to Hopkins. All QBs do that with their most reliable WR. Last year Watson targeted Hopkins 150 times. That was fewer than than 163 times last year and the 174 the year before were Watson did not play a full season.
  • In 13 years, Peyton Manning targeted Marvin Harrison 118, 117, 122, 184, 169, 205, 142, 139, 134, 148, 32 and 107 times
  • During that same period, Manning also targeted Reggie Wayne 107, 115, 122, 137, 156, 131, 149, and 175 times
  • The last four years, Drew Brees has targeted Michael Thomas 121, 149, 147 and 185 times.
  • Over the last three years, Brady has targeted Edelman 159, 108 and 153 times
  • Before injuries started slowing him down. Gronkowski was targeted 131, 120, and 105 times
  • Since 2014, Matt Ryan has targeted Julio Jones, 163, 203, 129, 148, 170, and 157 times
  • Since becoming a starter, Mahomes has targeted Travis Kelce 150 and 136 times
  • Since becoming a starter, Mahomes has targeted Tyreek Hill 137 and 89 times in a season where he only played 12 games.
Looking at the numbers, Watson is throwing to his #1 WR as often as other QBs are throwing to their #1 WRs. Read the field better? Who else was getting open as consistently as Hopkins? During his rookie season, Coutee was getting open and Watson found him without any problems. When the TEs were part of the game plan, he targeted them.

Watching Brady struggle without Gronk and then telling me taking away a QB's #1 target can lead to a more productive passing offense is like urinating on my head and calling it rain.

Great post. I really thought Numbers was a level headed member here. But from the looks of it, he’s another one trying to fault Watson to. I mean what team were they watching. I don’t recall receivers running around wide open like that bro. I surely didn’t see him having the best protection ( clean pocket) consistently either. And guess what ever quarterback misses wide open receivers from time to time.


Another thing Watson will have to find another safety blanket.
 
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Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Man this dude and his agenda stating we can’t win a championship with Watson. A freaking Qb who has won on every freaking level. And you can’t win a championship with that type of talent. Well that should speak wonders on the coaching staff. Just terrible
 

Rich Schmidt

Myopicone
Exactly. More than Hopkins' dependability was his availability. Fuller, Stills, Cobb and even Coutee have all had previous hamstring injuries. Is Coutee out of the doghouse?
Well we resigned Carter and brought in Cobb so Keke probably third string slot? I would guess he probably gets cut or we Rankin him, trade him for some other team's potential cut
 

Gouldo

From the land down under with vegemite sangas.
I feel for you guys. As a dolphins fan, I think we got the best out of the Tunsil trade, but this deal, well, its really beyond comprehension. Stills is a good no 2, not a No 1. Fuller is injured more often than not, and Hopkins, well, I think he is up there with Larry Fitz as an allround fan favourite in the NFL. To trade him makes no sense. None whatsoever. Whats the bet you now take a WR with your first pick.

Again, sorry for you lot.
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
It's funny you mentioned Watkins. A couple of weeks ago, Hopkins tweeted about a reunion with Watkins. I think he was endorsing Watkins joining the Texans. I got the numbers from Pro Football Reference. Maybe targeting Hopkins was a feature of the Texans' offense which again makes my point that Watson is similar to most QBs targeting their #1 receivers.


View attachment 5795
Notice that Hopkins' Y/R goes down the last 3 years, along with a steep drop off in Y/G? Is that on OB, DW4 or Hopkins? Personally, I'm laying that at OBs feet for deciding to put a phenomenal wide out in the slot.
 
That's another false statement by you. Nobody is exempt from being criticized or a fan being critical of said player or office personnel. The issue is being overly critical and trying to only spin your type of agenda. Not one time have I seen you give Watson or Rick Smith praise for doing something right. But ole Billy gets praise from you a lot. And when you do say something critical towards him. It's only in moderation because you're too busy defending him and his terrible antics. If this was Rick Smith driving this team into the dirt, you would be constantly every day killing him for it. I'm talking about nonstop. Everyone on here knows that bro.

Another thing, it's not a good look always playing the victim. You're not innocent either because you have thrown stones at people too. Let's keep it 100
And who decides when its overly critical? Who gets to draw the line and say "Ok you have criticized him enough now you have to say something nice." There are posters on here that literally have blamed OB for EVERY bad decision the Texans have made since he got here. I won't name names but one person said Ob was to blame for the mistakes made in the very first draft after he was made HC. Think about that, a team, with a long term GM, gave a first time NFL HC they just hired complete control of their draft? I don't care about the whole OB vs DW4 BS because I think its only in some people's minds. However I will say that people on here excuse something from posters they agree with and attack a poster they don't agree with for the very same thing.
 

IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Just curious but you indicate Vinny was unfair to you and maybe he was. Would it not be fair to say exactly what you did to be banned for life and also how you were able to return to the board?
You know this Vinny guy who doesn't seem to around thses daays, knocked me off of th website about 8 or 9 years ago.
I wa involed i a convesation wih ors about rac and mentioned the yellow race, jsut as on would say th white race or balcke, wah em
Just curious but you indicate Vinny was unfair to you and maybe he was. Would it not be fair to say exactly what you did to be banned for life and also how you were able to return to the board?
Apparently this Vinny guy has some Asian ancestry that he's defensive about or self conscious of I dunno, but there was a conversation including some discussion in a thread about race and I mentioned the "yellow race" in a post. It was not pejorative or not mean, nothing.
He got pizzed-off and locked out my userid. NP I just came back on the website under a different userid couple days later. So that
was way back in like 2012 or so. So he certainly could be heavy-handed.
 
Without trying to offending anyone, they were a lot more knowledgeable about the game, the team, and the people in the organization.

Don't get me wrong, we've got some knowledgeable guys here, now. It was just different.

More like a family too. Back then, this board was for us. & I can understand why Hookem did what he did.

It's getting harder & harder to understand why he continues when it feels like hardly anyone has that kind of "ownership" & investment in this place anymore.

Back then they came here to serve the board... their contributions were for the fellow fans. Now folks come here to prove a point, to be served, or to btch.
I mainly come here because this is the only place and people I can discuss the Texans with. My wife hates football as do most of my friends and family and the few that don't hate the Texans. So for me this board and the people on it make up the grand total of Texans football talk I get.
 
Man this dude and his agenda stating we can’t win a championship with Watson. A freaking Qb who has won on every freaking level. And you can’t win a championship with that type of talent. Well that should speak wonders on the coaching staff. Just terrible
Tim Tebow won on every level as did Manziel until they got to the NFL. Tebow even had a miracle run, no pun intended, into the playoffs. I think Watson is a better QB than both of them combined but he hasn't had any more NFL success than other college QBs that were the next big thing. Hell even Lamar Jackson hasn't truly had NFL success yet. The only young gun QB that has is Mahomes.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Tim Tebow won on every level as did Manziel until they got to the NFL. Tebow even had a miracle run, no pun intended, into the playoffs. I think Watson is a better QB than both of them combined but he hasn't had any more NFL success than other college QBs that were the next big thing. Hell even Lamar Jackson hasn't truly had NFL success yet. The only young gun QB that has is Mahomes.
This is what I've been trying to explain to some of the posters.

But they will have none of this type of thinking and I think we all know why we cant have a honest discussion about DW4's level of play and all of the excuses that are made when he has subpar games.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
The comedy!!! LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Oh boy this place never ceases to amaze .. Yeah lets use two flame out NFL QBs and compare them to Deshaun Watson in order to try and prove a bad point. Ohh my gosh my sides hurt. Good one.



Totals


RkPlayerFromToAVGQBrecCmpAttCmp%YdsTDRateLngIntSkYdsY/AAY/ANY/AANY/AAttYdsTDY/ALngRecYdsTDY/RLng
PassingRushingReceiving
1Johnny Manziel201420155152-6-014725857.01675774.4617221676.55.815.394.764625915.6340000
2Tim Tebow2010201212358-6-017336147.924221775.3569412586.76.535.385.22197989125.0400000
3Deshaun Watson20172019393824-13-0804120466.8971671101.073291257578.18.176.746.832171233145.7491616.06
Per Game



RkPlayerFromToCmpAttYdsTDIntSkYdsAttYdsTD
PassingRushing
1Johnny Manziel201420159.817.2111.70.50.51.511.13.117.30.1
2Tim Tebow201020124.910.369.20.50.31.27.45.628.30.3
3Deshaun Watson2017201921.231.7255.71.90.83.319.95.732.40.4
Playoffs Totals



RkPlayerFromToGQBrecCmpAttCmp%YdsTDRateLngIntSkYdsY/AAY/ANY/AANY/AAttYdsTDY/ALng
PassingRushing
1Tim Tebow2011201121-1-0194740.4452290.08005289.610.478.158.92156314.214
2Deshaun Watson2018201931-2-08012663.5870491.054114726.97.185.705.952816826.021
Playoffs Per Game



RkPlayerFromToCmpAttYdsTDIntSkYdsAttYdsTD
PassingRushing
1Tim Tebow201120119.523.5226.01.00.02.514.07.531.50.5
2Deshaun Watson2018201926.742.0290.01.30.34.724.09.356.00.7
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
just because Im bored this is what I found in relation to QBs who have won at each level:

Joe Namath won a high school championship, NCAA and a Superbowl

Thats it ... LOL

QBs that have won an NCAA Championship and a Superbowl:

Joe Namath
Kenny Stabler
Jeff Rutledge
Joe Montana
Bernie Kosar (yup he was a backup for Troy Aikman during one of the championships in the 90s)
GUUUUUULLLP ... Tom Brady!!!! (backup for Michigan when they won it)

So using that logic its safe to say that yes .. prior winning at each level might just be an indicator of future success. I mean without doing a full blown thesis on it and all, I mean I ran into some big names on the ALMOST WON IT category (Steve Young, Troy Aikman, Jim McMahon, Sammy Baugh) - so talent is talent LOL.
 

Lucky

Moderator
Staff member
Tim Tebow won on every level as did Manziel until they got to the NFL. Tebow even had a miracle run, no pun intended, into the playoffs. I think Watson is a better QB than both of them combined but he hasn't had any more NFL success than other college QBs that were the next big thing. Hell even Lamar Jackson hasn't truly had NFL success yet. The only young gun QB that has is Mahomes.
No success for Lamar Jackson, either? The league MVP? You guys are grading on too high of a curve.
 
No success for Lamar Jackson, either? The league MVP? You guys are grading on too high of a curve.
Its been my understanding around here that the only success that matters is Championships. Even among championships there are degrees of success, division ones are great till that's all you get then you want conference. Those are good right up until you get a rep for choking in the SB OR you keep winning the SB then all you care about are SBs.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Its been my understanding around here that the only success that matters is Championships. Even among championships there are degrees of success, division ones are great till that's all you get then you want conference. Those are good right up until you get a rep for choking in the SB OR you keep winning the SB then all you care about are SBs.
I guess pointing out how other great college QB's flamed out in the pro's (And there are many) is off limits to some.
 

zshawn10

All Pro
Report: Money the ultimate factor in DeAndre Hopkins being moved to the Cardinals

Breer said on the following on The Fanatic,

"The Texans did speak to the Eagles at one point about DeAndre Hopkins Schefter said. And I think the Eagles decided at this point in this time, with everything that you were going to have to do, you were going to have to pay the Texans, you were going to have to pay Hopkins a new contract, give up compensation."

"I think they decided that that wasn’t the right move. Now, I don’t know if that’s because this is maybe the deepest draft at wide receiver there is ever, or if they liked what they had, or if they had other ideas in mind. I don’t know why. But for whatever reason, I think they believe it wasn’t worth it. So, they did have conversations there."

With all of that said, the Texans, according to Breer, had underlying reasons to move Hopkins to the Cardinals.

The Texans are attempting to make offensive tackle Laremy Tunsil one of the highest-paid offensive linemen in the NFL, and Deshaun Watson’s contract is coming due. That is part of the reason why Jadeveon Clowney was moved before the start of the 2019 season due to financial demands.

Money is the driving factor in all of this for the Hopkins and the Texans. Even in the Cardinals press-release announcing they traded for Hopkins, they acknowledged that stating in their article, "He reportedly wants a raise and new contract – a topic that would likely had been known to the Cards prior to a deal."

Hopkins reportedly wants an increase on his contract in line with Atlanta Falcons wide receiver Julio Jones. Jones is currently pulling in $22 million a year compared to Hopkins’ $13.305 average over the final three years of his contract.

Hopkins has outperformed his contract, which leads to the bigger issue at hand, give him what he wants in a contract adjustment or move on from him. The Texans took the option of moving on from Hopkins.

Also, Breer compares the Hopkins situation Antonio Brown leaving Pittsburgh for Oakland in a trade that netted a third and fifth-round selection. Brown not only was at odds with his quarterback Ben Roethlisberger but he was angling for a new contract that he landed after the trade.

As far as we know from the season, Hopkins was not making it known that he wanted out of Houston to the public, and the contract situation did not show up until "after" the trade was completed.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Tim Tebow won on every level as did Manziel until they got to the NFL. Tebow even had a miracle run, no pun intended, into the playoffs. I think Watson is a better QB than both of them combined but he hasn't had any more NFL success than other college QBs that were the next big thing. Hell even Lamar Jackson hasn't truly had NFL success yet. The only young gun QB that has is Mahomes.

Terrible comparison
 

banned1976

American
Exactly. More than Hopkins' dependability was his availability. Fuller, Stills, Cobb and even Coutee have all had previous hamstring injuries. Is Coutee out of the doghouse?
Hopkins was the most dependable and reliable player on the entire team. You always knew at least he was going to "lace 'em up" on game day. The rest of the WR group has been undependable. Perhaps the most undependable group on the entire team. Other than Cobb, none of them have had a 1,000 yard season and Cobb only did it once.

Anyone trying to spin this in favor of the GM is just being biased at this point. As Seth Payne said this morning, the Texans are on the minus end of the ledger since free agency begin when it comes to good football players lost versus signed. Arguing the opposite is a losing argument. And I'm a guy who likes to play devils advocate.
 
Tebow wasn’t and should’ve been a quarterback. That’s why he didn’t last long in the NFL.
Hey had great success in college, he lead the Broncos to wins they had no business getting including the game winning, 80 yard pass in OT against the Steelers. If he had gotten paired with a different coach who knows. Still lets remove Tebow from the equation, what about Manziel, RGIII, Jamarcus Russell or Vince Young all these guys had great success in college and won at every level, some more than others, and none of them could cut it in the NFL. Now I don't believe Watson is or will be a bust but your statement that he has won on every level doesn't mean he will win on the NFL level. Lots of guys have won at every level until they get to the final level.
 
Hopkins was the most dependable and reliable player on the entire team. You always knew at least he was going to "lace 'em up" on game day. The rest of the WR group has been undependable. Perhaps the most undependable group on the entire team. Other than Cobb, none of them have had a 1,000 yard season and Cobb only did it once.

Anyone trying to spin this in favor of the GM is just being biased at this point. As Seth Payne said this morning, the Texans are on the minus end of the ledger since free agency begin when it comes to good football players lost versus signed. Arguing the opposite is a losing argument. And I'm a guy who likes to play devils advocate.
Agreed losing Hopkins wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that Fuller has never lasted a full season, Stills was hurt as well and Coutee is....well he's Coutee. I could understand if this was about money, Hopkins was overplaying at his price tag, but I still don't buy that he wasn't willing to wait at least a season knowing that he had 3 years left on his contract and Watson and Tunsil were going to have to get paid. Even saying that was the case you don't trade him away for peanuts. If he sits out the year then you file with the NFL and don't pay him his salary the see what you can do with him next time around. You're not any worse off and you aren't getting fleeced.
 

theCATALYST

"Fake" Fan
Hey had great success in college, he lead the Broncos to wins they had no business getting including the game winning, 80 yard pass in OT against the Steelers. If he had gotten paired with a different coach who knows. Still lets remove Tebow from the equation, what about Manziel, RGIII, Jamarcus Russell or Vince Young all these guys had great success in college and won at every level, some more than others, and none of them could cut it in the NFL. Now I don't believe Watson is or will be a bust but your statement that he has won on every level doesn't mean he will win on the NFL level. Lots of guys have won at every level until they get to the final level.
I think for a lot of these players who shined through college and failed in the NFL, a lot of that blame can go to being selected by the wrong team, with the wrong coach and placed into the wrong situation. Greatness cannot overcome all shortcomings in a team.
 
I think for a lot of these players who shined through college and failed in the NFL, a lot of that blame can to to being selected by the wrong team, with the wrong coach and placed into the wrong situation. Greatness cannot overcome all shortcomings in a team.
There is a lot of truth in what you say but unfortunately that is almost impossible to prove. If Tebow had signed with the Pats would he have been a great QB? What about RGIII with Seattle? And everyone knows Cleveland is where QB careers go to die. All these discussions are completely guessing though and the only true facts we have is what we see on the field. Would Watson be better with a different HC? Yeah I think he would but until he has a different HC we will never know truly how much is him and how much is the scheme.
 

theCATALYST

"Fake" Fan
There is a lot of truth in what you say but unfortunately that is almost impossible to prove. If Tebow had signed with the Pats would he have been a great QB? What about RGIII with Seattle? And everyone knows Cleveland is where QB careers go to die. All these discussions are completely guessing though and the only true facts we have is what we see on the field. Would Watson be better with a different HC? Yeah I think he would but until he has a different HC we will never know truly how much is him and how much is the scheme.
You are correct. However I can't help but to wonder if Tom Brady would be who he is today if he was drafted by a team like the Lions or Browns.
 

zshawn10

All Pro
MMQB/SI: Why the Texans traded Hopkins


Let me start here: I get the shock over the Texans’ return for DeAndre Hopkins. The Texans got a 2, took on David Johnson and his contract, and swapped 4s with the Cardinals, and Arizona walked away with a player who’s been first-team All-Pro three years running. And that doesn’t seem like much when you consider that Diggs and Odell Beckham fetched first-round picks, plus additional draft capital, and Brandin Cooks twice was traded for a 1.

But all that ignores the rest of the story, which explains why Houston couldn’t get more for a player of Hopkins’s caliber. So here’s that…
• Hopkins wasn’t looking for an extension; he was looking for a raise on his existing contract, which has three years left on it. And word other teams had gotten was that he wanted around what Julio Jones got, more than $20 million per year. If you’re the team trading him, that makes it exponentially more difficult to move even a star player—Antonio Brown would be Exhibit A there. Last year, the trade market for Brown crashed when it became clear he wanted a similar adjustment to what Hopkins is asking for. Brown wound up getting it. The $39 million he had left over the three remaining years of his contract was bumped to about $50 million, and that happened without any years being added to the deal. Which is why the Raiders were able to get him for a third- and fifth-round pick. Very few other teams were willing to do what they did.

• There was friction with Hopkins inside the organization, and really it had everything to do with Monday-to-Saturday. On Sundays, he was exemplary. The rest of the week, his practice habits (he didn’t practice much at all) became a problem, and because he was such a big star he had the ability to carry teammates in the wrong direction—guys who might not be able to turn it on come game day as easily as he could. And that was, if not easy, manageable. That said, it’s one thing to keep a guy who may not totally align with the program on an existing contract. It’s another to reward him with a new contract with three years left on that deal, and have to handle the message it sends to the locker room. And those intangible elements, by the way, are central to how EVP Jack Easterby is trying to help O’Brien rework the organization.

• The Texans have big contracts coming up. Deshaun Watson will eventually get paid, whether it’s this offseason or next. And if he’s not signed before Patrick Mahomes, then Houston will likely be negotiating with him at astronomical numbers, even compared to where the top of the QB market is now. Laremy Tunsil’s another big-box deal the team is working on, and an adjustment to Hopkins’s deal (Hopkins likely wasn’t showing up without one) would likely be considered in those negotiations, which will almost certainly make Tunsil the NFL’s highest-paid offensive lineman. And then there are others, like linebacker Zach Cunningham and (if healthy) receiver Will Fuller that the team needed flexibility to take care of.

• There’s also the argument over the value of a top receiver vs. other positions, and it’s worth noting that Sean Payton and Bill Belichick both traded away Brandin Cooks, the Steelers dealt Brown and the Giants probably aren’t looking back at the Odell Beckham trade with much regret. Receiver trades get a lot of attention because it’s much easier to judge how good they are versus, say, a left tackle or a pass-rusher. And usually the team shipping the receiver out gets grief—the Giants and Steelers sure did last year. The truth? The truth is it’s much easier to draw a correlation between winning and investment in the lines of scrimmage than between winning and having a great No. 1 receiver.

Now, all of this said, this might wind up being a disaster for Texans. I don’t know one way or the other. I’d just reason that the conventional wisdom being thrown around about the trade is more than a little shaky, given the conditions in place, and how big-time receiver deals have gone in the past. And I’d say all that thinking that having Hopkins should great for Kyler Murray, and Kliff Kingsbury should be a better fit for Hopkins as a coach. I’m told this deal came out of the blue for the Cardinals; they didn’t even discuss it in Indy, and it’s a good gamble for them. Arizona’s just entering the window it has to spend with a quarterback on an affordable rookie contract, and the idea of Hopkins running through the secondary on scramble plays with Murray holding the trigger is a scary one, for sure. But if we’re calling this what it is, then the whole picture should be taken into account.

So what’s next for Houston? What’s next is Watson firmly in place as the face of the offense, a role that I’d tell you the Texans are pretty comfortable with.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Hopkins was the most dependable and reliable player on the entire team. You always knew at least he was going to "lace 'em up" on game day. The rest of the WR group has been undependable. Perhaps the most undependable group on the entire team. Other than Cobb, none of them have had a 1,000 yard season and Cobb only did it once.

Anyone trying to spin this in favor of the GM is just being biased at this point. As Seth Payne said this morning, the Texans are on the minus end of the ledger since free agency begin when it comes to good football players lost versus signed. Arguing the opposite is a losing argument. And I'm a guy who likes to play devils advocate.
That's great..still didn't mean much in the grand scheme of it all except the joy fans had in saying that we had 1 of the best WR's in the game. Kubiak had AJ here putting up monster numbers for years & it amounted to very little for him as well. The guy Nuk is going out there to eventually replace, has only been regarded as 1 of the top 2-3 WR's (All-Pro) once in his career, has more seasons without 100 receptions... but managed to nearly will his team to a SB win with the post season run he had in 2008; & he was considerably younger at the time than Nuk is now. Of course the irony in that is his team was beaten in the SB by a team that didn't even have a true #1 WR...noone had over a 100 recs, 1 guy barely over a 1000 yards recieving. Hell, the game winning play in that SB was made by a guy who didn't even have 60 recs. on the season.

Noone's trying to spin this in favor of the GM...Hopkins was great but lets face it having him here putting up all pro/pro bowl seasons has amounted to very little for this franchise..... then we hear he wanted a pay raise.....
 

austins23

Hall of Fame
There was friction with Hopkins inside the organization, and really it had everything to do with Monday-to-Saturday. On Sundays, he was exemplary. The rest of the week, his practice habits (he didn’t practice much at all) became a problem, and because he was such a big star he had the ability to carry teammates in the wrong direction—guys who might not be able to turn it on come game day as easily as he could. And that was, if not easy, manageable. That said, it’s one thing to keep a guy who may not totally align with the program on an existing contract. It’s another to reward him with a new contract with three years left on that deal, and have to handle the message it sends to the locker room. And those intangible elements, by the way, are central to how EVP Jack Easterby is trying to help O’Brien rework the organization.

Things that make you go, hmmmmm.
 
Tebow was doomed by a liberal media who judged him more on his religious convictions than his play on the field.
He certainly got more attention drawn to his failings due to it. Great college QBs bust all the time but very few get as much press about it as he did. Manziel barely made news after his first season and people only talk about Mayfield when he opens his mouth and says something stupid, which I grant you is often.
 


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