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Derek Stingley vs. Sauce Gardner

I didn't want Stingley at all in the first round. I wanted Hamilton or Ekwonu at #3. But Stingley became a Texan and so deserves our support fully. What I don't get is the personal animosity and in some cases outright hate that some have shown him. It's not his fault he's a Texan and it's not like he hasn't worked hard to be the best he can be (unlike some other first round selections of the Texans). His career is just getting started people. Many others that were considered busts their first year or so are now considered great picks. Dislike the pick all you want, but don't let it become personal
 
Porky said:
In literally every business, there is risk management decisions made. But there’s times to swing for the fences and there’s times to be more cautious and conservative. Those risks can be human capital, as is the case here.

In this case, I don’t even think it’s close. This was an unnecessary risk, and an extremely dumb decision. And no it’s not hindsight. I said before the draft I wouldn’t touch him until the 2nd round. I know you will go to the mat on this. Some people refuse to give up their position, no matter how obvious it is to others, so I won’t try to convince you.
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lol you’re right I am..b/c at the end of the day it’s just 1 pick & he’s 1 guy…and even if he entered completely healthy & had his lisfranc injury after he was drafted, you’re still in the same boat you’re in now…

The Bottom line for me is that their health when they enter the league is almost next to irrelevant.

yup we could’ve gotten another player…but you can say that about every draft pick in every round every year. That top 10 aint looking great period. Hutchinson and Wilson are the only guys that so far look the part. Sauce is coming back to earth & I haven’t heard anything regarding Cross.
 
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JB said:
I didn't want Stingley at all in the first round. I wanted Hamilton or Ekwonu at #3. But Stingley became a Texan and so deserves our support fully. What I don't get is the personal animosity and in some cases outright hate that some have shown him. It's not his fault he's a Texan and it's not like he hasn't worked hard to be the best he can be (unlike some other first round selections of the Texans). His career is just getting started people. Many others that were considered busts their first year or so are now considered great picks. Dislike the pick all you want, but don't let it become personal
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Ekwonu ain’t looking so hot for Carolina either..Panther fans are already calling him a bust as well….so are Giants fans with Evan Neal. Thibs is looking like JAG. Travon Walker..we already know how Jags fans are calling for him as a bust.
So that really only leaves Sauce..who so far this year is not really living up to the immense hype thrown on him last year.

Hutchison, whom we had no shot at is seemingly the only guy who looks the part from that draft that was worthy of the 3 spot.
 
Mr teX said:
Namdi was a fraud. He was never as good as everyone thought. He really only had 1 impressive season. The rest was just hype from that season and the fact that qb’s didn’t throw at him. But that wasn’t b/c he was so good. It was b/c he wouldn’t travel with the offense's best WR and so all they did was send their #1 to the other side and throw to them over there. Got exposed the minute he left the Raiders.

Champ could travel if you needed him to and he did at select times in his career. Sauce is the most like Sherman But like Champ, both these got their hands on the ball regularly …& that’s ultimately what put fear in qb’s whether they traveled or not. Sauce….at least at this point in his career has not shown that he can do that.
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Nandi was strictly man boundary corner which he played well in Oakland. When he signed with Eagles, it was more zone/cover 3. I mean I saw him 1st hand blanket AJ and some others. Sauce has played well. Honestly, if teams have success throwing away from him, why not? In today's open NFL, its easier to find the match up. Bottom line, Stingley VS Gardener is one sided . Stingley is looking like Jeff Okuda
 
leebigeztx said:
Nandi was strictly man boundary corner which he played well in Oakland. When he signed with Eagles, it was more zone/cover 3. I mean I saw him 1st hand blanket AJ and some others. Sauce has played well. Honestly, if teams have success throwing away from him, why not? In today's open NFL, its easier to find the match up. Bottom line, Stingley VS Gardener is one sided . Stingley is looking like Jeff Okuda
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If you can only play one way or on 1 side AND you’re not getting your hands on the ball, you’re limited and imo, you’re overrated..which was the case with Nmandi for me and is looking like the case with Sauce for me now & is my bottom line…

He’s been average at best. No more game changing plays than Stingley & he hasn’t even been playing lol.

but we can agree to disagree.
 
JB said:
I didn't want Stingley at all in the first round. I wanted Hamilton or Ekwonu at #3. But Stingley became a Texan and so deserves our support fully. What I don't get is the personal animosity and in some cases outright hate that some have shown him. It's not his fault he's a Texan and it's not like he hasn't worked hard to be the best he can be (unlike some other first round selections of the Texans). His career is just getting started people. Many others that were considered busts their first year or so are now considered great picks. Dislike the pick all you want, but don't let it become personal
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I wanted Ekwonu early in The process, and also strongly considered Hamilton. As we moved closer to the draft, I was all in on Sauce. It’s nothing personal toward Sting for me…it’s personal for me against Nick and his asinine decision making. Unlike Tex, I think injury history, especially something like a lisfranc is very very very highly relevant. When your looking at 3rd overall, and going to draft a position rarely drafted that high, your candidate better damn well be squeaky clean from the hair on his head to the bunions on his feet. That includes character, smarts, work ethic, and the biggest one - health. Just a pathetically stupid decision and reason #1 Nick should be in the unemployment line.
 
Porky said:
I wanted Ekwonu early in The process, and also strongly considered Hamilton. As we moved closer to the draft, I was all in on Sauce. It’s nothing personal toward Sting for me…it’s personal for me against Nick and his asinine decision making. Unlike Tex, I think injury history, especially something like a lisfranc is very very very highly relevant. When your looking at 3rd overall, and going to draft a position rarely drafted that high, your candidate better damn well be squeaky clean from the hair on his head to the bunions on his feet. That includes character, smarts, work ethic, and the biggest one - health. Just a pathetically stupid decision and reason #1 Nick should be in the unemployment line.
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If he made the Stingley pick I would agree with you.
 
Gardner was so obvious. So damned obvious. Not taking him there just took me back to a nightmare Casserly draft. The entire universe knows what to do here but Charlie (Nick) is smarter than everybody so he’s going to roll the dice.

Doesn’t matter who he took him for or why. It was a mistake. It still looks like a mistake and that doesn’t appear to be about to change. Sauce is “Sauce” but Stingley is (for me) “Gravy“ because whatever you get out of him in a season is just gravy and you should be happy to get it.
 
Hervoyel said:
Gardner was so obvious. So damned obvious. Not taking him there just took me back to a nightmare Casserly draft. The entire universe knows what to do here but Charlie (Nick) is smarter than everybody so he’s going to roll the dice.

Doesn’t matter who he took him for or why. It was a mistake. It still looks like a mistake and that doesn’t appear to be about to change. Sauce is “Sauce” but Stingley is (for me) “Gravy“ because whatever you get out of him in a season is just gravy and you should be happy to get it.
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If Cal hadn't promised Lovie the pick when he took the job I would be more on board with this line of thinking. More McNair meddling, just another reason I will be playing golf today. Although I will be taping the game.

Same thing is going on with Ryans in the drafts. Difference is Ryans is better at this.
 
steelbtexan said:
If Cal hadn't promised Lovie the pick when he took the job I would be more on board with this line of thinking. More McNair meddling, just another reason I will be playing golf today. Although I will be taping the game.

Same thing is going on with Ryans in the drafts. Difference is Ryans is better at this.
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If all of these rumors are to be believed (and they are rumors, not facts), Caserio has never been the guy making the picks. Not here, and certainly not in New England. So why the whining over a guy who has never made the picks not being able to make the picks? It's pretty clear (from your beliefs) that Caserio did not get final say on draft choices in his $36 million contract.
 
steelbtexan said:
If Cal hadn't promised Lovie the pick when he took the job I would be more on board with this line of thinking. More McNair meddling, just another reason I will be playing golf today. Although I will be taping the game.

Same thing is going on with Ryans in the drafts. Difference is Ryans is better at this.
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To be clear, you applaud Nick Caserio for getting the players DeMeco, his HC, wants. But Cal promising that Caserio will get the player his HC, Lovie Smith, wants is a bad thing.

:thinking:
 
Lucky said:
If all of these rumors are to be believed (and they are rumors, not facts), Caserio has never been the guy making the picks. Not here, and certainly not in New England. So why the whining over a guy who has never made the picks not being able to make the picks? It's pretty clear (from your beliefs) that Caserio did not get final say on draft choices in his $36 million contract.
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Correct
 
The media blitz behind Sauce's PI is almost as annoying as the NFL cutting away to Taylor Swift every time Travis Kelce does something on the field. This has been the thing & i've said this from the jump about him..he's just a little too handsy & last night he just got caught with his hand in the cookie jar in a critical point in the game that cost his team.
 
sandman said:
Has Stingley ever cost the Texans a win because of a PI call on an interception at the end of the game?

Sauce taking wins off the plate for his team. Stingley don't do that...
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lol…part of that is b/c Stingley hasn’t been playing & we’ve been rarely in position to win many games since he’s been here…..but aside from that, what happened last night is what you worry about. If Gardner was as good as his hype machine says he is, No QB is throwing his way at that critical part of the game. Teams weren’t testing Deion, Revis or Woodson like that late in games. there’s No fear of him.
 
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Mr teX said:
lol…part of that is b/c Stingley hasn’t been playing & we’ve been rarely in position to win many games since he’s been here…..but aside from that, what happened last night is what you worry about. If Gardner was as good as his hype machine says he is, No QB is throwing his way at that critical part of the game. Teams weren’t testing Deion, Revis or Woodson like that late in games CB. No fear of him.
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steelbtexan said:
At some point it will happen to Stingley too. It happens to all of them at some point.
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I know I haven't been posting much because the new role at work has me 24x7, but I thought the :kitten: was obvious...
 
TexansBull said:
If drafting Sauce Gardner meant the Texans would win one more game than they did last season would you do it? It then would mean we would have missed out on CJ and Anderson.
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When you look at the big picture things appear to have worked out well. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. What would make things even better is if Stingley could get/stay healthy and play up to his talent level. I dont know if this is ever going to happen and although I like Stingley and didn't like the pick at 1-3 we cant say we weren't warned that this would be the result if Stingley was the pick.
 
It's fair to say the Houston Texans picked the wrong CB in the 2022 NFL Draft
Even if Derek Stingley gets better, the Houston Texans missed out on Sauce Gardner

By Chad Porto | Nov 29, 2023

The Houston Texans had the third overall pick in the 2022 NFL Draft and were eying defensive players at the position. They eventually settled on LSU cornerback Derek Stingley Jr., making him the first cornerback off the board during the draft. It was a move that raised some eyebrows. Stingley was highly touted but he wasn't the top corner in the eyes of many, with that being Ahmad "Sauce" Gardner.

Gardner was a cornerback out of Cincinnati and was someone that had infinite amounts of potential. So much so that many experts had him going off the board first among all corners and safeties. instead, the Texans took Stingley, a move that many thought was the right position but the wrong player.

A belief that has seemingly held up after a year and a half of contests. So far in 2023, Stingley has been average at best, which is admittedly a lot better than his truly poor outing as a rookie in 2022. Yet, in 2023, and 2022, Gardner has been every bit the of the elite player many had expected him to be.

He's having back to back seasons of 80+ grades by PFF, and he's seen by many to be one of, if not best cornerback in the league. Stingley, on the other hand, isn't even the best corner on his team this year, and that's saying something as the Texans corners aren't exactly world beaters.

We expect Stingley to get better but even if he does, it's unlikely he'll ever be as good as Gardner, and that's saying something considering Stingley was believed to be the better prospect of the two. Instead, Stingley will likely go his entire career hearing this very same thing said about him time and time again.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
It's fair to say the Houston Texans picked the wrong CB in the 2022 NFL Draft
Even if Derek Stingley gets better, the Houston Texans missed out on Sauce Gardner

By Chad Porto | Nov 29, 2023

The Houston Texans had the third overall pick in the 2022 NFL Draft and were eying defensive players at the position. They eventually settled on LSU cornerback Derek Stingley Jr., making him the first cornerback off the board during the draft. It was a move that raised some eyebrows. Stingley was highly touted but he wasn't the top corner in the eyes of many, with that being Ahmad "Sauce" Gardner.

Gardner was a cornerback out of Cincinnati and was someone that had infinite amounts of potential. So much so that many experts had him going off the board first among all corners and safeties. instead, the Texans took Stingley, a move that many thought was the right position but the wrong player.

A belief that has seemingly held up after a year and a half of contests. So far in 2023, Stingley has been average at best, which is admittedly a lot better than his truly poor outing as a rookie in 2022. Yet, in 2023, and 2022, Gardner has been every bit the of the elite player many had expected him to be.

He's having back to back seasons of 80+ grades by PFF, and he's seen by many to be one of, if not best cornerback in the league. Stingley, on the other hand, isn't even the best corner on his team this year, and that's saying something as the Texans corners aren't exactly world beaters.

We expect Stingley to get better but even if he does, it's unlikely he'll ever be as good as Gardner, and that's saying something considering Stingley was believed to be the better prospect of the two. Instead, Stingley will likely go his entire career hearing this very same thing said about him time and time again.
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Sad but true.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
It's fair to say the Houston Texans picked the wrong CB in the 2022 NFL Draft
Even if Derek Stingley gets better, the Houston Texans missed out on Sauce Gardner

By Chad Porto | Nov 29, 2023

The Houston Texans had the third overall pick in the 2022 NFL Draft and were eying defensive players at the position. They eventually settled on LSU cornerback Derek Stingley Jr., making him the first cornerback off the board during the draft. It was a move that raised some eyebrows. Stingley was highly touted but he wasn't the top corner in the eyes of many, with that being Ahmad "Sauce" Gardner.

Gardner was a cornerback out of Cincinnati and was someone that had infinite amounts of potential. So much so that many experts had him going off the board first among all corners and safeties. instead, the Texans took Stingley, a move that many thought was the right position but the wrong player.

A belief that has seemingly held up after a year and a half of contests. So far in 2023, Stingley has been average at best, which is admittedly a lot better than his truly poor outing as a rookie in 2022. Yet, in 2023, and 2022, Gardner has been every bit the of the elite player many had expected him to be.

He's having back to back seasons of 80+ grades by PFF, and he's seen by many to be one of, if not best cornerback in the league. Stingley, on the other hand, isn't even the best corner on his team this year, and that's saying something as the Texans corners aren't exactly world beaters.

We expect Stingley to get better but even if he does, it's unlikely he'll ever be as good as Gardner, and that's saying something considering Stingley was believed to be the better prospect of the two. Instead, Stingley will likely go his entire career hearing this very same thing said about him time and time again.
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What's the point and who the fvck is chad porto? Some newcomer to toro times that likes to post click bait?
 
Chad probably replaced me or maybe one of the other guys. I did some work for them for a short period of time. But they don’t pay much and my new business started to take off, so I had to leave. What they do pay is based on clicks per thousand views. The idea is to create content and write headlines that draw attention. One way to do that is using controversy or have a bold opinion likely to cause clicks…Aka click bait. Then they use the views to set ad prices. They aren’t the only one using this business model, and I have nothing against them. But that’s the business model.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
It's fair to say the Houston Texans picked the wrong CB in the 2022 NFL Draft
Even if Derek Stingley gets better, the Houston Texans missed out on Sauce Gardner

By Chad Porto | Nov 29, 2023

The Houston Texans had the third overall pick in the 2022 NFL Draft and were eying defensive players at the position. They eventually settled on LSU cornerback Derek Stingley Jr., making him the first cornerback off the board during the draft. It was a move that raised some eyebrows. Stingley was highly touted but he wasn't the top corner in the eyes of many, with that being Ahmad "Sauce" Gardner.

Gardner was a cornerback out of Cincinnati and was someone that had infinite amounts of potential. So much so that many experts had him going off the board first among all corners and safeties. instead, the Texans took Stingley, a move that many thought was the right position but the wrong player.

A belief that has seemingly held up after a year and a half of contests. So far in 2023, Stingley has been average at best, which is admittedly a lot better than his truly poor outing as a rookie in 2022. Yet, in 2023, and 2022, Gardner has been every bit the of the elite player many had expected him to be.

He's having back to back seasons of 80+ grades by PFF, and he's seen by many to be one of, if not best cornerback in the league. Stingley, on the other hand, isn't even the best corner on his team this year, and that's saying something as the Texans corners aren't exactly world beaters.

We expect Stingley to get better but even if he does, it's unlikely he'll ever be as good as Gardner, and that's saying something considering Stingley was believed to be the better prospect of the two. Instead, Stingley will likely go his entire career hearing this very same thing said about him time and time again.
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So true, so very true
 
Sauce is so overrated..even jets fans are starting to say it. His whole mystique is based off his cool nickname and the PFF grade that most players either don’t pay attention to or flat out just don’t respect. I’ve been watching him since the draft & have seen him complaining in the media about calls against him and/or throwing his teammates under the bus to really respect him as the shutdown cb PFF is so desperate to make him. He doesn’t get his hands on the ball and as a result, qb’s don’t fear him like that.

The Texans are actually about to face the real best cb in the league this Sunday in Pat Surtain II.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
It's fair to say the Houston Texans picked the wrong CB in the 2022 NFL Draft
Even if Derek Stingley gets better, the Houston Texans missed out on Sauce Gardner

By Chad Porto | Nov 29, 2023

The Houston Texans had the third overall pick in the 2022 NFL Draft and were eying defensive players at the position. They eventually settled on LSU cornerback Derek Stingley Jr., making him the first cornerback off the board during the draft. It was a move that raised some eyebrows. Stingley was highly touted but he wasn't the top corner in the eyes of many, with that being Ahmad "Sauce" Gardner.

Gardner was a cornerback out of Cincinnati and was someone that had infinite amounts of potential. So much so that many experts had him going off the board first among all corners and safeties. instead, the Texans took Stingley, a move that many thought was the right position but the wrong player.

A belief that has seemingly held up after a year and a half of contests. So far in 2023, Stingley has been average at best, which is admittedly a lot better than his truly poor outing as a rookie in 2022. Yet, in 2023, and 2022, Gardner has been every bit the of the elite player many had expected him to be.

He's having back to back seasons of 80+ grades by PFF, and he's seen by many to be one of, if not best cornerback in the league. Stingley, on the other hand, isn't even the best corner on his team this year, and that's saying something as the Texans corners aren't exactly world beaters.

We expect Stingley to get better but even if he does, it's unlikely he'll ever be as good as Gardner, and that's saying something considering Stingley was believed to be the better prospect of the two. Instead, Stingley will likely go his entire career hearing this very same thing said about him time and time again.
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Tell us something we don't know.
 
Mr teX said:
He doesn’t get his hands on the ball and as a result, qb’s don’t fear him like that.
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Sauce isn't doing a great job of getting his hands on ball carriers, either. He's missed 13 tackles, 25% of his opportunities. That's a lot for a CB that is targeted only 4 times a game.

What I like most about Stingley is that he plays a clean game. 3 penalties over 14 games. Stingley plays coverage with his feet rather than his hands, like former Patriot and Raider HOFer Mike Haynes (my favorite CB of all time). The problem? Stingley has only played in 14 games. Half of the number of games the Texans have played over the past 2 seasons. You can't be great if you're not on the field.
 
Lucky said:
Sauce isn't doing a great job of getting his hands on ball carriers, either. He's missed 13 tackles, 25% of his opportunities. That's a lot for a CB that is targeted only 4 times a game.

What I like most about Stingley is that he plays a clean game. 3 penalties over 14 games. Stingley plays coverage with his feet rather than his hands, like former Patriot and Raider HOFer Mike Haynes (my favorite CB of all time). The problem? Stingley has only played in 14 games. Half of the number of games the Texans have played over the past 2 seasons. You can't be great if you're not on the field.
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It’s like I said at the outset of this thread with Sauce. He doesn’t have the raw or makeup speed to keep up with guys and he can’t help but hold/PI especially when u can get & beat him off the LOS in press man..which Saleh has decided to put him in more of this year & it hasn’t really gone well for him.

everyone knew Stingley’s biggest challenge was going to be his health, but you can see when he’s been out there, he makes teams pay in the biggest way a cb can, which is getting TO’s. Saleh even said as much to Sauce in that Jets hard knocks series.
 
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thats-bait.gif
 
I'm still not as impressed as the stat lines would indicate over this 3 game stretch.

Cardinals game: Stingley got burned for a TD early, makes up for it with a couple of plays throughout the game. But his INT here his WR had a step on him but the ball was underthrown allowing for the INT.

Jags game: He got beat for a few third down conversions in this game but didn't get beat a ton and made a couple of plays. However his INT here was pure luck and with competent refs it gets called back anyways.

Today: Got completely burned early on but an underthrown ball saves him, probably should have been PI as well. First INT was a good catch but ultimately Will Anderson made this play. Second INT was a really really great play full props to him for this play to end on a high note.

So idk feels like a good bit of luck is the culprit recently. Hopefully I'm wrong tho
 
Khelar said:
I'm still not as impressed as the stat lines would indicate over this 3 game stretch.

Cardinals game: Stingley got burned for a TD early, makes up for it with a couple of plays throughout the game. But his INT here his WR had a step on him but the ball was underthrown allowing for the INT.

Jags game: He got beat for a few third down conversions in this game but didn't get beat a ton and made a couple of plays. However his INT here was pure luck and with competent refs it gets called back anyways.

Today: Got completely burned early on but an underthrown ball saves him, probably should have been PI as well. First INT was a good catch but ultimately Will Anderson made this play. Second INT was a really really great play full props to him for this play to end on a high note.

So idk feels like a good bit of luck is the culprit recently. Hopefully I'm wrong tho
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I guess we watched a different game today. The first INT was deflected by WAJ and Sting happened to be there. That second one in the open field, Sting baited Wilson into that throw. It wasn’t under thrown and was on target to Sutton. Sting tracked that ball the whole way.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Khelar said:
I'm still not as impressed as the stat lines would indicate over this 3 game stretch.

Cardinals game: Stingley got burned for a TD early, makes up for it with a couple of plays throughout the game. But his INT here his WR had a step on him but the ball was underthrown allowing for the INT.

Jags game: He got beat for a few third down conversions in this game but didn't get beat a ton and made a couple of plays. However his INT here was pure luck and with competent refs it gets called back anyways.

Today: Got completely burned early on but an underthrown ball saves him, probably should have been PI as well. First INT was a good catch but ultimately Will Anderson made this play. Second INT was a really really great play full props to him for this play to end on a high note.

So idk feels like a good bit of luck is the culprit recently. Hopefully I'm wrong tho
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Hasn't been a 3 game season. He was basically untested the first few games pre injury because he was sticky.

Him getting burned is something that has occurred due to Cover 2, knowing he has safety help up top which has been horrible.

He goes for picks and is going to blanket coverage 9/10 times.

He's a stud.
 
corry said:
Hasn't been a 3 game season. He was basically untested the first few games pre injury because he was sticky.

Him getting burned is something that has occurred due to Cover 2, knowing he has safety help up top which has been horrible.

He goes for picks and is going to blanket coverage 9/10 times.

He's a stud.
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The cover 2 thing specifically is just not the case. For instance the Cardinals TD early in the game was cover 3. Typically in cover 3 if the #1 WR goes vertical it turns into man for the cornerback and Stingley tried to man up and got beat.
 
Khelar said:
The cover 2 thing specifically is just not the case. For instance the Cardinals TD early in the game was cover 3. Typically in cover 3 if the #1 WR goes vertical it turns into man for the cornerback and Stingley tried to man up and got beat.
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Yeah, you are wrong and that's fine. If you want to play the Cover 3 game then even better. Should have much more safety help if thats the case. You are blaming a zone corner who is responsible for curls and flats for a touchdown that took place right over Jalen Pitre's head in centerfield. ******* LOL man.
 
Khelar said:
The cover 2 thing specifically is just not the case. For instance the Cardinals TD early in the game was cover 3. Typically in cover 3 if the #1 WR goes vertical it turns into man for the cornerback and Stingley tried to man up and got beat.
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You wrong as hell. That TD in the cards game wasn’t on him dude…that was on Pitre. I detailed all that in the game thread…
 
corry said:
Yeah, you are wrong and that's fine. If you want to play the Cover 3 game then even better. Should have much more safety help if thats the case. You are blaming a zone corner who is responsible for curls and flats for a touchdown that took place right over Jalen Pitre's head in centerfield. ******* LOL man.
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I'm sorry that you don't understand how NFL coverages work. First off in no universe was that play cover 2, you saying it is already tells me you have no idea what you're talking about.

Secondly NFL defenses don't typically play spot drop zone, meaning that you (typically) aren't just given an area to cove, there are rules based on what the receiver does you don't just drop to a spot. In cover 3 when the #1 receiver goes vertical it turns into man to man with the corner vs the receiver. Stingley was in no way shape or form responsible for the flats or curls on that play. If you don't believe me go back and watch, Stingley's movements and they will tell you all you need to know. Pitre also screwed up as it's his job to help Stingley there. But Pitre also screwing up doesn't mean Stingley didn't get burned, he did.
 
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