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Derek Stingley vs. Sauce Gardner

SnakeEyes said:
Nick Caserio wanted Sauce from the way he was talking him up on his visit to Houston. He didn't even mention Stingley being here if I remember correctly. Then on draft day...Stingley is the pick. I was honestly in shock when I heard his name. Expecting to hear Sauce as the pick. I honestly think that Stingley was a Lovie and Cal, maybe even Easterby pick. Caserio knows from his time in NE that if you draft a bust, fine. However, don't up the odds by picking an injured player on top of it.
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1516843660406665222

https://twitter.com/x/status/1536379618478813184
 
Lucky said:
If Cal is hiring the coaches and Lovie is making the draft picks, what exactly is Nick’s job? Trading away draft choices and signing aging vets? Bill O’Brien could’ve done that.
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If you wanted me to do defend Caserio I would say Lovie got the pick because that is normal for new coaches to get to make the pick. Same thing with the second pick in the first.

If you wanted me to answer honestly I would I haven’t a clue what anyone does down there on Kirby and it seems a lot of them don’t know what they are doing either.

The truth is somewhere in the middle.
 
I've posted Broshmo (youtube) in draft threads. He is a legitimate draft geek, very knowledgeable, entertaining and worth following throughout the draft process. Here is his 2022 draft redo, just for fun (know it's too early duh) but he does have Texans still selecting Stingley #3 overall.

 
Lucky said:
If Cal is hiring the coaches and Lovie is making the draft picks, what exactly is Nick’s job? Trading away draft choices and signing aging vets? Bill O’Brien could’ve done that.
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I think you're catching onto what's been going on down on Kirby.

You dont think every 1-1 in Texans history hasn't been a McNair call and do you think this tradition will change? Of course Caserio will make the rest of the picks. But will not be allowed to pick guys like Hill/Kelce/Peters/Hunt ect.... It definitely not only limits the talent pool, but you've gotta face those guys in the playoffs and they usually beat you.

I was hoping that Cal would let Caserio operate like the Pats and draft a J.C. Jackson/Trade for Moss/Sign Dillon/Gordon/Brown in FA. But now I know that's not gonna happen. Nothing has really changed down on Kirby and Caserio is doing his best working under the constraints of the McNair ownership. An absolute failure of an ownership, unless you consider them lining their pockets over the last 2 decades being successful.
 
Lucky said:
If Cal is hiring the coaches and Lovie is making the draft picks, what exactly is Nick’s job? Trading away draft choices and signing aging vets? Bill O’Brien could’ve done that.
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Cal likes his coffee with extra cream and four sugar cubes. :coffee:

steelbtexan said:
I think you're catching onto what's been going on down on Kirby.

You dont think every 1-1 in Texans history hasn't been a McNair call and do you think this tradition will change? Of course Caserio will make the rest of the picks. But will not be allowed to pick guys like Hill/Kelce/Peters/Hunt ect.... It definitely not only limits the talent pool, but you've gotta face those guys in the playoffs and they usually beat you.

I was hoping that Cal would let Caserio operate like the Pats and draft a J.C. Jackson/Trade for Moss/Sign Dillon/Gordon/Brown in FA. But now I know that's not gonna happen. Nothing has really changed down on Kirby and Caserio is doing his best working under the constraints of the McNair ownership. An absolute failure of an ownership, unless you consider them lining their pockets over the last 2 decades being successful.
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Yep. I agree. Which is why it's weird that you think Caserio has a chance to turn it around. He's not his own man. He's got that numbskull owner and his goofy ideas on culture mouth-breathing into his ear.
 
Double Barrel said:
Cal likes his coffee with extra cream and four sugar cubes. :coffee:



Yep. I agree. Which is why it's weird that you think Caserio has a chance to turn it around. He's not his own man. He's got that numbskull owner and his goofy ideas on culture mouth-breathing into his ear.
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I'm thinking he did a good job in the last draft and if Cal is willing to wait until 2024 he can get the franchise QB. + Doubtful)

I really hope Caserio picks Duggan somewhere along the way. That guy's will to win is larger than most. The Big 12 championship game confirmed that for me. He finished 2nd in the Heisman working with less than guys like Stroud/Williams who had a lot more to work with. I bet he runs in the low 4.5's. He's got a strong enough arm. He's a more athletic Jimmy G.
 
IDEXAN said:
I dunno do we have Tunsil under contract beyond the current season ?
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Yes Tunsil signed thru 2023 with a base of $18 m and dead ~ $17 with savings of $18.5 if cut/traded. That is generating the discussion of a possible trade in off season. It would be difficult for me to move on from him and I expect him to be nominated for another pro bowl however {and you know who will reword my comments and bloviate} I don't say no if enough is sent my way in trade. Don't want to detract from the corners in OP but :
A) proven LTs rare almost impossible to find with his 'play-ability'.
B) only 2 LTs in draft who should be able to start day 1 & why waste a pick.
C) Tunsil negotiated his last extension and presumably Caserio will do better than BOB.
D) He bought back in after Lovie talked to him.. if Smith goes.. another question mark...
E) If Young is 1.1 don't you want a season vet?
 
badboy said:
Yes Tunsil signed thru 2023 with a base of $18 m and dead ~ $17 with savings of $18.5 if cut/traded. That is generating the discussion of a possible trade in off season. It would be difficult for me to move on from him and I expect him to be nominated for another pro bowl however {and you know who will reword my comments and bloviate} I don't say no if enough is sent my way in trade. Don't want to detract from the corners in OP but :
A) proven LTs rare almost impossible to find with his 'play-ability'.
B) only 2 LTs in draft who should be able to start day 1 & why waste a pick.
C) Tunsil negotiated his last extension and presumably Caserio will do better than BOB.
D) He bought back in after Lovie talked to him.. if Smith goes.. another question mark...
E) If Young is 1.1 don't you want a season vet?
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Glad to see you are coming around and not pinching pennies.
 
steelbtexan said:
I think you're catching onto what's been going on down on Kirby.

You dont think every 1-1 in Texans history hasn't been a McNair call and do you think this tradition will change? Of course Caserio will make the rest of the picks. But will not be allowed to pick guys like Hill/Kelce/Peters/Hunt ect.... It definitely not only limits the talent pool, but you've gotta face those guys in the playoffs and they usually beat you.

I was hoping that Cal would let Caserio operate like the Pats and draft a J.C. Jackson/Trade for Moss/Sign Dillon/Gordon/Brown in FA. But now I know that's not gonna happen. Nothing has really changed down on Kirby and Caserio is doing his best working under the constraints of the McNair ownership. An absolute failure of an ownership, unless you consider them lining their pockets over the last 2 decades being successful.
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JC Jackson was undrafted. Any db in New England is going to outplay his draft position because of Hoodie
 
badboy said:
Yes Tunsil signed thru 2023 with a base of $18 m and dead ~ $17 with savings of $18.5 if cut/traded. That is generating the discussion of a possible trade in off season. It would be difficult for me to move on from him and I expect him to be nominated for another pro bowl however {and you know who will reword my comments and bloviate} I don't say no if enough is sent my way in trade. Don't want to detract from the corners in OP but :
A) proven LTs rare almost impossible to find with his 'play-ability'.
B) only 2 LTs in draft who should be able to start day 1 & why waste a pick.
C) Tunsil negotiated his last extension and presumably Caserio will do better than BOB.
D) He bought back in after Lovie talked to him.. if Smith goes.. another question mark...
E) If Young is 1.1 don't you want a season vet?
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That's why I was so critical of people calling for Tunsil to be traded to unload cap space and receive more draft picks. You don't trade one of your best players playing at an elite level at one of the most important positions IN THE PRIME OF HIS CAREER when you're trying to rebuild a team.
 
steelbtexan said:
Glad to see you are coming around and not pinching pennies.
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not 'coming around' as I've always had position of trade him or any player only if an overwhelming trade. I offered trade scenarios for Andre Johnson and Nuk; not that I did not like but if a trade made team much better. For some, it is only about the cap & while I have included cap savings with some of my trade suggestions that always had a minor role. Last season there was a question about Tunsil's dedication in returning from a relatively minor thumb injury that I also figured in. That has now apparently been resolved .. barring a coaching change.. perhaps. I do think Skoronski with our 2nd pick could be a replacement for 2024 BUT I do not see a trade package I want to move Tunsil.

I remain open to all offers for any player or draft pick.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
That's why I was so critical of people calling for Tunsil to be traded to unload cap space and receive more draft picks. You don't trade one of your best players playing at an elite level at one of the most important positions IN THE PRIME OF HIS CAREER when you're trying to rebuild a team.
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Yes but as you and I have discussed.. my position is it depends on the package offered. Tunsil has done nothing under his extension to elevate this team. Although I see no package that would cause me to accept, with the understanding a QB will be taken in draft; if that were not so, and GM (whoever it is) were to exercise trade downs.. I would slightly be open to trade.

Skoronski should be a starting LT on this team if drafted. For example if Arizona wanted to give 1.5 +2.36 + 3.67 for Tunsil I'd consider it. You still have 1.1 to trade and take Skoronski with Browns' and go to building your roster.

All said, Texans take Young 1.1 and I want Tunsil blocking.
 
badboy said:
Yes but as you and I have discussed.. my position is it depends on the package offered. Tunsil has done nothing under his extension to elevate this team. Although I see no package that would cause me to accept, with the understanding a QB will be taken in draft; if that were not so, and GM (whoever it is) were to exercise trade downs.. I would slightly be open to trade.

Skoronski should be a starting LT on this team if drafted. For example if Arizona wanted to give 1.5 +2.36 + 3.67 for Tunsil I'd consider it. You still have 1.1 to trade and take Skoronski with Browns' and go to building your roster.

All said, Texans take Young 1.1 and I want Tunsil blocking.
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The difference between the two of our opinions is that I would have at no point in this rebuild entertained trading Tunsil...........even no matter the QB.
 
SnakeEyes said:
That's what I thought I saw. Thanks for clearing it up
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Lovie likes Stingley alright.

However, Nick Caserio had laid out the drafting procedures very clearly.

The scouting department garner the prospects.
Nick will then present a number of them to the coaches and ask for their opinions.

Then Caserio makes the final call.
He can override the coaches if he chooses to do so.

What we don't know is whether Stingley was also Caserio's top choice and whether he presented the injury situation clearly to the coaches (ie.; Lovie)

Also, we don't know whether Caserio clearly told Lovie which ones were the game film from Stingley's freshman year (which were quite good, but not great. Very good for a freshman, but nowhere near shut down good) and which one from more recent time (which were middling).

Also, the coaches are not familiar with the opponents that a player like Stingley faced in a given game.
Lovie has been out of the NFL for awhile; he can't be too familiar with all the college players that have been entering the league lately.
He's not quite uptodate.
 
badboy said:
Yes Tunsil signed thru 2023 with a base of $18 m and dead ~ $17 with savings of $18.5 if cut/traded. That is generating the discussion of a possible trade in off season. It would be difficult for me to move on from him and I expect him to be nominated for another pro bowl however {and you know who will reword my comments and bloviate} I don't say no if enough is sent my way in trade. Don't want to detract from the corners in OP but :
A) proven LTs rare almost impossible to find with his 'play-ability'.
B) only 2 LTs in draft who should be able to start day 1 & why waste a pick.
C) Tunsil negotiated his last extension and presumably Caserio will do better than BOB.
D) He bought back in after Lovie talked to him.. if Smith goes.. another question mark...
E) If Young is 1.1 don't you want a season vet?
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Ok appreciate the comprehensive response there BB, and you also make a strong case for sticking with Tunsil.
 
76Texan said:
Lovie likes Stingley alright.

However, Nick Caserio had laid out the drafting procedures very clearly.

The scouting department garner the prospects.
Nick will then present a number of them to the coaches and ask for their opinions.

Then Caserio makes the final call.
He can override the coaches if he chooses to do so.

What we don't know is whether Stingley was also Caserio's top choice and whether he presented the injury situation clearly to the coaches (ie.; Lovie)

Also, we don't know whether Caserio clearly told Lovie which ones were the game film from Stingley's freshman year (which were quite good, but not great. Very good for a freshman, but nowhere near shut down good) and which one from more recent time (which were middling).

Also, the coaches are not familiar with the opponents that a player like Stingley faced in a given game.
Lovie has been out of the NFL for awhile; he can't be too familiar with all the college players that have been entering the league lately.
He's not quite uptodate.
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You're trying too hard. Caserio told us at the draft was Lovie's pick and Lovie confirmed it. Caserio called and had the card sent with the name of Lovie's pick
 
beerlover said:
There you go. Nice research, Lovies pick.
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CloakNNNdagger said:
What I've been saying from the beginning.
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In your opinion, could there have been something outside of on the field performance that led Lovie to choose Stingley over Gardner? Mental make-up, attitude, physical measurables/attributes...I chose Stingley in one the draft polls on here based on his pre-injury ability and athleticsim running in his family (father and grandfather).
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
That's why I was so critical of people calling for Tunsil to be traded to unload cap space and receive more draft picks. You don't trade one of your best players playing at an elite level at one of the most important positions IN THE PRIME OF HIS CAREER when you're trying to rebuild a team.
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When it looked like Tunsil wasn't interested in being here, missing 12 games with a hangnail, you certainly have to start to consider moving him and getting something back. And how much does he want to be/stay here? The very earliest the Texans make a move towards the surface is 2024, and playoff contenders maybe by 2025. That's if everything goes right. Does Tunsil want to stick around for continuous rebuild mode or move on somewhere with a chance to win? And if he stays the Texans are going to be paying a chunk of change to keep him, after the ton they've already spent on him including draft picks.

I really don't care one way or the other. If he's here and playing at a Pro Bowl caliber level, I'm good with that. In fact, I'd prefer that. But if Lovie is out and he's done with this organization and wants to move on, you've got to get something back for him after all you've spent on him.
 
76Texan said:
Some examples why I said Stingley was far from a shutdown corner in college.

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to be fair, those we’re elite WR’s with elite QB and Stingley was just a freshman. Don’t think we need to be dumping on him and picking his worst sample size.

Stingley is very smooth in transition, flips hips and adjusts to the receiver, looks for the ball and does attempt break-up. Couple of those reps he slipped and lost footing, looks worse than it is from speed mismatch.

I just want to see Stingley healthy, with solid reps under his belt and in system that lets him play press. Nothing like an awesome CB, rarer than elite WR (all best athletes generally strive to play offense and show off their skills).
 
beerlover said:
to be fair, those we’re elite WR’s with elite QB and Stingley was just a freshman. Don’t think we need to be dumping on him and picking his worst sample size.

Stingley is very smooth in transition, flips hips and adjusts to the receiver, looks for the ball and does attempt break-up. Couple of those reps he slipped and lost footing, looks worse than it is from speed mismatch.

I just want to see Stingley healthy, with solid reps under his belt and in system that lets him play press. Nothing like an awesome CB, rarer than elite WR (all best athletes generally strive to play offense and show off their skills).
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I don't know why some feel the need to dump on Stingley to make Sauce look better. They are both very good. You would think that a Texans fan would rally behind a Texans player even if he wasn't the fan's choice. I guess some are just so egotistical that they would rather attempt to make themselves look good than support their football team. What's the point? Is that not the definition of a troll?
 
KoolAid Sipper said:
In your opinion, could there have been something outside of on the field performance that led Lovie to choose Stingley over Gardner? Mental make-up, attitude, physical measurables/attributes...I chose Stingley in one the draft polls on here based on his pre-injury ability and athleticsim running in his family (father and grandfather).
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No. Just ignorance/indifference to a "notorious" injury.
 
JB said:
I don't know why some feel the need to dump on Stingley to make Sauce look better. They are both very good. You would think that a Texans fan would rally behind a Texans player even if he wasn't the fan's choice. I guess some are just so egotistical that they would rather attempt to make themselves look good than support their football team. What's the point? Is that not the definition of a troll?
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I for one have presented Stingley in light of facts and established history. No one should disagree that "availability" are a player's quality of most importance, bar non. Even looking past performance, Stingley has not had an impressive past history of availability..............a pattern that he unfortunately has not managed to evade into his NFL career.
 
Speedy said:
When it looked like Tunsil wasn't interested in being here, missing 12 games with a hangnail, you certainly have to start to consider moving him and getting something back. And how much does he want to be/stay here? The very earliest the Texans make a move towards the surface is 2024, and playoff contenders maybe by 2025. That's if everything goes right. Does Tunsil want to stick around for continuous rebuild mode or move on somewhere with a chance to win? And if he stays the Texans are going to be paying a chunk of change to keep him, after the ton they've already spent on him including draft picks.

I really don't care one way or the other. If he's here and playing at a Pro Bowl caliber level, I'm good with that. In fact, I'd prefer that. But if Lovie is out and he's done with this organization and wants to move on, you've got to get something back for him after all you've spent on him.
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They shut Tunsil down to tank. Nowhere did you read Tunsil say he wanted out. That was only said by most on here and media types. Funny how most people let the media shape their opinions. (Not talking about you)

Tunsil has said this year that he's down with hanging around for the rebuild. What he really wants is to get paid. Top 2-3 LT's get paid and I hope the Texans are the team doing the paying. Like I've said before the Texans need more guys like Tunsil not less.

I'm just glad that Caserio didn't listen to the media and fans and did what was right for the franchise. Hopefully this trend continues and Caserio doesn't cave to the fans/media with a QB 1-1.
 
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