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Derek Stingley vs. Sauce Gardner

cuppacoffee said:
I think Pitre should be in the conversation.

:coffee:
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Big fan of Petre. He is better than who he replaced (Justin Reid) taken round earlier, but Reid did have early second round grade (rightfully so) but then by same token, had first round grade on Petrie, in a hot, deep safety cluster.

Yet often times you miss accurately grading prospects due to lack of resources and time. Thought for sure Adien Hutchinson was #1 prospect in 2022 draft (who I really wanted Texans to select) but those Jags threw a curve, selecting elite trait/size/measurable Travon Walker, leaving door open and Lions pounced, transforming their franchise. Everything as advertised, yet now I realize, Hutchinson wasn’t the #1 prospect, it was Ahmad “Sauce” Gardener, as a rookie, best CB in the league. I follow his tape and review each week #1 WR he shuts down. Name any one of them, Diggs, Jefferson, Adam’s, Hill, Chase, same result, nullified.

Sauce is a misnomer, he is more like a praying mantis. Very still, stalking his victim then closes space and engulfs prey, for intense purposes, eating them alive.
https://www.treehugger.com/wondrous-facts-about-praying-mantises-4858807
 
badboy said:
We could have had Darrelle Revis and could have had Sauce Gardner.
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Coulda woulda shoulda. I’m just interested on getting it right and improving as evaluator. Revis was late ascending talent. Don’t think any of us (doesn’t mean actual teams scouting department didn’t know) so it seemed on top of us weekend warrior with not enough time/information to process. He was also built completely different, but what great feet he had and smooth hips for his build…. If could do that one over again :hankpalm:
 
beerlover said:
Big fan of Petre. He is better than who he replaced (Justin Reid) taken round earlier, but Reid did have early second round grade (rightfully so) but then by same token, had first round grade on Petrie, in a hot, deep safety cluster.

Yet often times you miss accurately grading prospects due to lack of resources and time. Thought for sure Adien Hutchinson was #1 prospect in 2022 draft (who I really wanted Texans to select) but those Jags threw a curve, selecting elite trait/size/measurable Travon Walker, leaving door open and Lions pounced, transforming their franchise. Everything as advertised, yet now I realize, Hutchinson wasn’t the #1 prospect, it was Ahmad “Sauce” Gardener, as a rookie, best CB in the league. I follow his tape and review each week #1 WR he shuts down. Name any one of them, Diggs, Jefferson, Adam’s, Hill, Chase, same result, nullified.

Sauce is a misnomer, he is more like a praying mantis. Very still, stalking his victim then closes space and engulfs prey, for intense purposes, eating them alive.
https://www.treehugger.com/wondrous-facts-about-praying-mantises-4858807
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I haven't heard the mantis comparison yet, but it sounds impressive. And it seems to be true.
Hey, everybody!
 
Thorn said:
Stingley will be out for a 5th consecutive week. This is what happens when you draft players with a known injury history.
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On the one hand... we're anxious that Stingley is going to miss time

On the other hand we're anxious that the powers that be don't sit Green & Pierce if they aren't 100%
 
Ehh after 1 year of play in the league AJ Green had outplayed Julio Jones…dude got selected to the PB his rookie year…Jones did not and wound up missing significant time his 3rd year in the league. Year 2 both were studs but it was clear Jones was the more special player. Green was the more healthier & consistent of the 2, but he never came close to putting up a season that rivaled what Jones was doing once he got going.

I obviously would like it if Stingley wound up being Jones in this scenario, but i certainly wouldn’t call him a bust if Sauce winds up being the better of the 2 and Stingley is just an AJ green level guy.
 
Mr teX said:
Ehh after 1 year of play in the league AJ Green had outplayed Julio Jones…dude got selected to the PB his rookie year…Jones did not and wound up missing significant time his 3rd year in the league. Year 2 both were studs but it was clear Jones was the more special player. Green was the more healthier & consistent of the 2, but he never came close to putting up a season that rivaled what Jones was doing once he got going.

I obviously would like it if Stingley wound up being Jones in this scenario, but i certainly wouldn’t call him a bust if Sauce winds up being the better of the 2 and Stingley is just an AJ green level guy.
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I know AJ Green has been injury prone virtually his entire NFL career but did have medical red flags during draft process?

The answer is yes he did. Which is a problem you just cannot overlook. So comparison is a fair one, Julio Jones had a freak combine and no medical red flags.
 
thunderkyss said:
On the one hand... we're anxious that Stingley is going to miss time

On the other hand we're anxious that the powers that be don't sit Green & Pierce if they aren't 100%
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The difference is that Stingley's injury is such that the team knows that he can not physically play even if the team wanted him to (and tries to make you believe he can and that his prolonged absence is only "precautionary")...........no different than with Pierce. Green's injuries (chest/shoulder; and high ankle sprain) are such that the team can and has made him play............no doubt resulting in what should be expected..........poor performance with increased risk of extending his injuries or incurring a compensatory injury.
 
Mr teX said:
Ehh after 1 year of play in the league AJ Green had outplayed Julio Jones…dude got selected to the PB his rookie year…Jones did not and wound up missing significant time his 3rd year in the league. Year 2 both were studs but it was clear Jones was the more special player. Green was the more healthier & consistent of the 2, but he never came close to putting up a season that rivaled what Jones was doing once he got going.

I obviously would like it if Stingley wound up being Jones in this scenario, but i certainly wouldn’t call him a bust if Sauce winds up being the better of the 2 and Stingley is just an AJ green level guy.
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Which isn't a bust, even if Sauce ends up being the better player.
 
beerlover said:
I know AJ Green has been injury prone virtually his entire NFL career but did have medical red flags during draft process?

The answer is yes he did. Which is a problem you just cannot overlook. So comparison is a fair one, Julio Jones had a freak combine and no medical red flags.
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Can those guys stay on the field and play is all that matters…..Thats the only reason those medical red flags matter in the 1st place. ….& AJ green was for the most part able to Despite those injury prone concerns during the draft process and throughout his career. Certainly was able to moreso than Jones was anyway despite Jones still having the more explosive career.

People are flipping out with Stingley just b/c of where he was selected….which truthfully shouldn’t matter. You Cant be scared to select a guy b/c of injury concerns…especially if he shows well at the combine and during the season. Injuries can arise at any point and derail a guys career….Stingley could’ve been a fully healthy guy coming into the draft, sustained the lisc franc injury in training camp and the same prognosis/situation would still apply for him in that scenario that does for him now. Likewise Sauce could have it happen to him now and the same would apply.

Brees sustained a 1 in a million injury to his throwing shoulder early in his career…Everyone including him thought that he might be done just as he was getting started…NO took a chance when noone else would and the rest is history.
 
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Mr teX said:
Can those guys stay on the field and play is all that matters…..Thats the only reason those medical red flags matter in the 1st place. ….& AJ green was for the most part able to Despite those injury prone concerns during the draft process and throughout his career. Certainly was able to moreso than Jones was anyway despite Jones still having the more explosive career.

People are flipping out with Stingley just b/c of where he was selected….which truthfully shouldn’t matter. You Cant be scared to select a guy b/c of injury concerns…especially if he shows well at the combine and during the season. Injuries can arise at any point and derail a guys career….Stingley could’ve been a fully healthy guy coming into the draft, sustained the lisc franc injury in training camp and the same prognosis/situation would still apply for him in that scenario that does for him now. Likewise Sauce could have it happen to him now and the same would apply.

Brees sustained a 1 in a million injury to his throwing shoulder early in his career…Everyone including him thought that he might be done just as he was getting started…NO took a chance when noone else would and the rest is history.
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I'm not disputing your argument; I'm pointing out Medicals cannot be understated, ignored or mis-evaluated at this level. Would have been fine taking flyer on Stingley #13 given his talent/upside just not #3 overall with better options on the board (including trading back to gain more draft capital before selecting him).
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
The difference is that Stingley's injury is such that the team knows that he can not physically play even if the team wanted him to (and tries to make you believe he can and that his prolonged absence is only "precautionary")...........no different than with Pierce. Green's injuries (chest/shoulder; and high ankle sprain) are such that the team can and has made him play............no doubt resulting in what should be expected..........poor performance with increased risk of extending his injuries or incurring a compensatory injury.
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what percentage of players do you estimate play even when they probably shouldn’t and/or they can’t?

Going further how many play and their performance “suffer” as a result? That’s a “relative” type assessment & just based on his play when he was out there, PFF “grade” aside, he was about as good as you could’ve expected him to have been considering the Lovie factor & how he and the db’s have been asked to play.
 
beerlover said:
I'm not disputing your argument; I'm pointing out Medicals cannot be understated, ignored or mis-evaluated at this level. Would have been fine taking flyer on Stingley #13 given his talent/upside just not #3 overall with better options on the board (including trading back to gain more draft capital before selecting him).
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we can agree to disagree. No such thing as a “flyer” if you’re picking anywhere in the top 10-15. So in my view, whether it was at 3 or 13, its a high 1st round pick….not saying you, but there still would’ve been a ton of grumbling going on around here if we did as you state and the season plays out like it has.

I just hate the hindsight view that many try to use. You know what you know at that time. & what you know is that until these guys get 2-3 years in, you only know you like Sauce as the better prospect,…you don’t lnow that he’ll wind up being the “better” player in the NFL…there are just too many other factors to consider.
 
Mr teX said:
Ehh after 1 year of play in the league AJ Green had outplayed Julio Jones…dude got selected to the PB his rookie year…Jones did not and wound up missing significant time his 3rd year in the league. Year 2 both were studs but it was clear Jones was the more special player. Green was the more healthier & consistent of the 2, but he never came close to putting up a season that rivaled what Jones was doing once he got going.

I obviously would like it if Stingley wound up being Jones in this scenario, but i certainly wouldn’t call him a bust if Sauce winds up being the better of the 2 and Stingley is just an AJ green level guy.
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Lol oh boy.
 
Mr teX said:
we can agree to disagree. No such thing as a “flyer” if you’re picking anywhere in the top 10-15. So in my view, whether it was at 3 or 13, its a high 1st round pick….not saying you, but there still would’ve been a ton of grumbling going on around here if we did as you state and the season plays out like it has.

I just hate the hindsight view that many try to use. You know what you know at that time. & what you know is that until these guys get 2-3 years in, you only know you like Sauce as the better prospect,…you don’t lnow that he’ll wind up being the “better” player in the NFL…there are just too many other factors to consider.
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2022 NFL Draft: Risers and fallers according to PFF's Mock Draft Simulator | NFL Draft | PFF

I try to let it go once picks are in, unless I'm being taken to task over and over and over again. Frankly, Caserio did about as bad in first round as he possibly could given a deep talent pool of first round quality (including Pitre) into 2nd round. Hopefully, for Texans things do improve? Would never wish for bad things to happen regardless of situation. Even winning games that could cost this franchise a higher draft pick (beating Cowboys instead of folding down the stretch).
 
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Mr teX said:
what percentage of players do you estimate play even when they probably shouldn’t and/or they can’t?

Going further how many play and their performance “suffer” as a result? That’s a “relative” type assessment & just based on his play when he was out there, PFF “grade” aside, he was about as good as you could’ve expected him to have been considering the Lovie factor & how he and the db’s have been asked to play.
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Yep, Green playing hurt skewed his PFF grade.
 
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beerlover said:
2022 NFL Draft: Risers and fallers according to PFF's Mock Draft Simulator | NFL Draft | PFF

I try to let it go once picks are in, unless I'm being taken to task over and over and over again. Frankly, Caserio did about as bad in first round as he possibly could given a deep talent pool of first round quality (including Pitre) into 2nd round. Hopefully, for Texans things do improve? Would never wish for bad things to happen regardless of situation. Even winning games that could cost this franchise a higher draft pick (beating Cowboys instead of folding down the stretch).
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Interesting what that link says about Green (who I believe was a faller on their sim due to the rise of others)


A massive prospect, he also played both guard and tackle spots in his college career and has impressive movement skills for his size.
Green was particularly effective run blocking on zone plays in 2021, earning a 93.2 PFF grade on those plays compared to a mark over 40 grading points lower on plays employing a gap blocking scheme. As a pass protector, Green allowed just 10 total pressures across 404 pass-blocking snaps and recorded an 81.4 PFF pass-blocking grade on true pass sets.
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JB said:
Interesting what that link says about Green (who I believe was a faller on their sim due to the rise of others)
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Green tested poorly @ Combine. Shockingly poor in drills, disregarded mostly (watched the tape) not that forty means much 5.25 combine 5.56 Pro Day but strength less than expected 20 reps. Not sure but may have been dealing with some injury even back then? Despite that, nobody a bigger supporter of Green, but we all fall victim to having favorites and he was one of mine so not looking at anything negative.
 
beerlover said:
Green tested poorly @ Combine. Shockingly poor in drills, disregarded mostly (watched the tape) not that forty means much 5.25 combine 5.56 Pro Day but strength less than expected 20 reps. Not sure but may have been dealing with some injury even back then? Despite that, nobody a bigger supporter of Green, but we all fall victim to having favorites and he was one of mine so not looking at anything negative.
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Green was coming off of a surgery.

CnD can tell you what type of surgery.
 
beerlover said:
Green tested poorly @ Combine. Shockingly poor in drills, disregarded mostly (watched the tape) not that forty means much 5.25 combine 5.56 Pro Day but strength less than expected 20 reps. Not sure but may have been dealing with some injury even back then? Despite that, nobody a bigger supporter of Green, but we all fall victim to having favorites and he was one of mine so not looking at anything negative.
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Oh I was just commenting on their writeup
 
Mr teX said:
Can those guys stay on the field and play is all that matters…..Thats the only reason those medical red flags matter in the 1st place. ….& AJ green was for the most part able to Despite those injury prone concerns during the draft process and throughout his career. Certainly was able to moreso than Jones was anyway despite Jones still having the more explosive career.

People are flipping out with Stingley just b/c of where he was selected….which truthfully shouldn’t matter. You Cant be scared to select a guy b/c of injury concerns…especially if he shows well at the combine and during the season. Injuries can arise at any point and derail a guys career….Stingley could’ve been a fully healthy guy coming into the draft, sustained the lisc franc injury in training camp and the same prognosis/situation would still apply for him in that scenario that does for him now. Likewise Sauce could have it happen to him now and the same would apply.

Brees sustained a 1 in a million injury to his throwing shoulder early in his career…Everyone including him thought that he might be done just as he was getting started…NO took a chance when noone else would and the rest is history.
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You are comparing purchasing a car that you know had a broken axle to purchasing a car that has not had a broken axle ? A new car could break an axle but it is not the same as getting one that's already broken.
 
badboy said:
You are comparing purchasing a car that you know had a broken axle to purchasing a car that has not had a broken axle ? A new car could break an axle but it is not the same as getting one that's already broken.
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Terrible analogy
 
badboy said:
You are comparing purchasing a car that you know had a broken axle to purchasing a car that has not had a broken axle ? A new car could break an axle but it is not the same as getting one that's already broken.
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Doesn’t matter what analogy u use, the thing you’re talking about here is peace of mind…and that isn’t worth much in the game of football or the crapshoot we call the NFL draft where “can’t miss prospects” taken at the top of the draft miss all the time.

So in your analogy whether you purchased the car with the known broken axle at a slight discount as beerlover suggested with his “flyer” suggestion,……you still bought it and did so at a relatively premium price that will hirt your pockets no matter what if you miss….having said all that, the longevity/use…or whatever of the car you purchased it for would still be the same whether the axle breaks before or after you bought it.

even if you as the customer don’t buy that particular car at all, you’re not guarantee to not have that same issue or another with another percieved “safer”car that you purchase.

Who foresaw Andrew Luck cutting his career short by a decade b/c of injuries? What about the guy who went right after him in RG3? Both of those guys should still be playing…but You think Colts/Commanders fans still have all those warm and fuzzies about their medicals knowing now how their careers played out?
Meanwhile DW4’s medicals were terrible coming out, & were extended in the NFL…& he’s in the NFL still balling….As is a guy like Jaylon Smith. Point is, you can’t predict how these things will play out & its somewhat silly to try to.
 
beerlover said:
Green tested poorly @ Combine. Shockingly poor in drills, disregarded mostly (watched the tape) not that forty means much 5.25 combine 5.56 Pro Day but strength less than expected 20 reps. Not sure but may have been dealing with some injury even back then? Despite that, nobody a bigger supporter of Green, but we all fall victim to having favorites and he was one of mine so not looking at anything negative.
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steelbtexan said:
Green was coming off of a surgery.

CnD can tell you what type of surgery.
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Green underwent knee surgery right after his last college season.............prior to the NFL Draft for which he also missed time in the 2021 offseason due to that surgery to repair a lateral collateral ligament tear. He was wearing a protective knee brace into the offseason. His surgery and recovery led to him concentrating on his knee rehab with putting less energy into preparing the rest of his body for the Draft.
 
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Mr teX said:
Doesn’t matter what analogy u use, the thing you’re talking about here is peace of mind…and that isn’t worth much in the game of football or the crapshoot we call the NFL draft where “can’t miss prospects” taken at the top of the draft miss all the time.

So in your analogy whether you purchased the car with the known broken axle at a slight discount as beerlover suggested with his “flyer” suggestion,……you still bought it and did so at a relatively premium price that will hirt your pockets no matter what if you miss….having said all that, the longevity/use…or whatever of the car you purchased it for would still be the same whether the axle breaks before or after you bought it.

even if you as the customer don’t buy that particular car at all, you’re not guarantee to not have that same issue or another with another percieved “safer”car that you purchase.

Who foresaw Andrew Luck cutting his career short by a decade b/c of injuries? What about the guy who went right after him in RG3? Both of those guys should still be playing…but You think Colts/Commanders fans still have all those warm and fuzzies about their medicals knowing now how their careers played out?
Meanwhile DW4’s medicals were terrible coming out, & were extended in the NFL…& he’s in the NFL still balling….As is a guy like Jaylon Smith. Point is, you can’t predict how these things will play out & its somewhat silly to try to.
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You are just going round in circles. Any player can have an injury. That's not the point. The point is you are getting player with injury already. That player with injury such as ACL, Lisfranc, concussion, etc has higher chance of injury than one who does not.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Green underwent knee surgery right after his last college season.............prior to the NFL Draft for which he also missed time in the 2021 offseason due to that surgery to repair a lateral collateral ligament tear. He was wearing a protective knee brace into the offseason. His surgery and recovery led to him concentrating on his knee rehab with putting less energy into preparing the rest of his body for the Draft.
Click to expand...


No wonder the Texans picked him he was injured.
 
Mr teX said:
Doesn’t matter what analogy u use, the thing you’re talking about here is peace of mind…and that isn’t worth much in the game of football or the crapshoot we call the NFL draft where “can’t miss prospects” taken at the top of the draft miss all the time.

So in your analogy whether you purchased the car with the known broken axle at a slight discount as beerlover suggested with his “flyer” suggestion,……you still bought it and did so at a relatively premium price that will hirt your pockets no matter what if you miss….having said all that, the longevity/use…or whatever of the car you purchased it for would still be the same whether the axle breaks before or after you bought it.

even if you as the customer don’t buy that particular car at all, you’re not guarantee to not have that same issue or another with another percieved “safer”car that you purchase.

Who foresaw Andrew Luck cutting his career short by a decade b/c of injuries? What about the guy who went right after him in RG3? Both of those guys should still be playing…but You think Colts/Commanders fans still have all those warm and fuzzies about their medicals knowing now how their careers played out?
Meanwhile DW4’s medicals were terrible coming out, & were extended in the NFL…& he’s in the NFL still balling….As is a guy like Jaylon Smith. Point is, you can’t predict how these things will play out & its somewhat silly to try to.
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Nick Caserio bought a car with a broken axle at premium price.

That's the problem.
 
76Texan said:
Nick Caserio bought a car with a broken axle at premium price.

That's the problem.
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Given we’re so talent depleted and cant afford misses in any of the 1st 2 rounds really, its a “premium” price no matter where they would’ve selected him in the 1st or 2nd which is what you & a few others don’t understand.
 
badboy said:
You are just going round in circles. Any player can have an injury. That's not the point. The point is you are getting player with injury already. That player with injury such as ACL, Lisfranc, concussion, etc has higher chance of injury than one who does not.
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lol, if a guy tears his ACL in college & then enters the NFL, he typically ain’t tearing the same damn ACL he tore in college man..if it happens to him again, usually its his other “healthy” knee. Same for the Lis Franc…

Point is injuries that happen are typically independent of one another..even with the guys who have medical red flags coming out of college….which im sure most do, we just only hear about the ones concerning big time prospects.

but according to your logic, not a single damn player in the NFL would or should be drafted b/c of their higher chance for a concussion;…which you damn well know that every single player has at least sustained 2 or more of those throughout their careers.

people like you assume the previous medicals make them more vulnerable…when in fact those guys have the same probability of sustaining a career altering injury as the perfectly clean prospect does. once again peace of mind about their health counts for next to nothing when these guys enter the league.
 
Mr teX said:
lol, if a guy tears his ACL in college & then enters the NFL, he typically ain’t tearing the same damn ACL he tore in college man..if it happens to him again, usually its his other “healthy” knee. Same for the Lis Franc…

Point is injuries that happen are typically independent of one another..even with the guys who have medical red flags coming out of college….which im sure most do, we just only hear about the ones concerning big time prospects.

but according to your logic, not a single damn player in the NFL would or should be drafted b/c of their higher chance for a concussion;…which you damn well know that every single player has at least sustained 2 or more of those throughout their careers.

people like you assume the previous medicals make them more vulnerable…when in fact those guys have the same probability of sustaining a career altering injury as the perfectly clean prospect does. once again peace of mind about their health counts for next to nothing when these guys enter the league.
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There are so many dogmatic statements that are misleading in this post, that it is not worth the time to respond............so I won't.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
The difference is that Stingley's injury is such that the team knows that he can not physically play even if the team wanted him to (and tries to make you believe he can and that his prolonged absence is only "precautionary")...........no different than with Pierce. Green's injuries (chest/shoulder; and high ankle sprain) are such that the team can and has made him play............no doubt resulting in what should be expected..........poor performance with increased risk of extending his injuries or incurring a compensatory injury.
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I'm most interested in Stingley injuries because of two reasons: he has that Lis franc injury history, and secondly he was the Texans' highest pick, the 3rd overall in this years Draft.
I'm still totally puzzled and perplexed by the Texans' apparent cavalier or indifferent attitude towards Stingley history in the '22 draft ?
 
1 thing I’ve learned in my area of study is that folks in the med field tend to talk about things in absolutes and certainties when in fact they are not. Not saying this about you man, I respect your opinion & expertise greatly on here…but it is what it is & i know what i’ve seen & experienced as well.

For instance, i know what the data says about the drop off in survival rates for patients once they’ve gotten their chest cracked for open heart surgery the 1st time vs having to go in a 2nd or 3rd time. But I’ve seen it happen so many times in my career and patients have come out no worse for the wear, im more inclined to believe that the data is either outdated or it simply can’t quantify certain things that ultimately matter.

As for this Stingley thing, time will ultimately tell.
 
JB said:
With the Texans luck, if they'd have picked Sauce he would have had his lisfranc injury in the first game and missed the entire season and part of next
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Injuries happen. Nothing you can do about that. But injuries to players with injury histories happen a lot more. You up the risk taking on those players, especially higher in the draft like say #3 overall and/or #15 overall.

Stingley may end up being a great pick, and because he's a Texan I hope that's the case, but based on his injury history I would have never taken him #3 overall. Especially not with the talent still on the board there.
 
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