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Derek Stingley vs. Sauce Gardner

zshawn10

All Pro
No. 3: Houston Texans -- CB Derek Stingley

Grade: B

In his coverage area, Stingley has yet to allow a touchdown to date. True to his spectacular LSU form, Stingley's been around the football quite often, with five pass breakups and an interception on 49 targets. Now, he hasn't been lockdown. There've been some coverage lapses. But -- and this is important -- before his time in Houston, Stingley rarely played soft, Cover 2 zone. He was a press-man extraordinaire in the SEC. For playing, essentially, a new role at outside corner, Stingley's been solid.

No. 4: New York Jets -- CB Sauce Gardner
Grade: A+

Sauce is the Defensive Rookie of the Year frontrunner. Frankly, it'll be difficult for him to lose the award at this juncture, based on where we are in the season and how stingy he's played -- 20 receptions allowed on 46 targets with two picks and an NFL-leading (not just rookie-leading) 13 pass breakups. Gardner has handled NFL receivers much like he handled those in the AAC over the past three seasons at Cincinnati.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
So can Stingley.

Although at draft time Sauce was the cleaner prospect, which is why I wanted Caserio to pick Sauce.
And thats all it really was. Sauce from an injury standpoint was the cleaner prospect…technique wise..speed wise there’s no comparison imo. Part of why Sauce is so handsy is b/c he doesnt really trust his speed to run with guys off the jam or a free release..or his technique to be able to keep him in position to be able to close when he’s beat…has to get his hands on them to hold them up a bit…

Thats why i think what Beerlover states about him being able to flip from cb to safety…he’s more of a safety imo..that 4.4 speed is an illusion…closer to 4.5 guy..his instincts which are 2nd to none put him position more than anything else's..
 

Texansballer74

The Marine
And thats all it really was. Sauce from an injury standpoint was the cleaner prospect…technique wise..speed wise there’s no comparison imo. Part of why Sauce is so handsy is b/c he doesnt really trust his speed to run with guys off the jam or a free release..or his technique to be able to keep him in position to be able to close when he’s beat…has to get his hands on them to hold them up a bit…

Thats why i think what Beerlover states about him being able to flip from cb to safety…he’s more of a safety imo..that 4.4 speed is an illusion…closer to 4.5 guy..his instincts which are 2nd to none put him position more than anything else's..
It has nothing to do with not trusting his speed. Lol where in the world did you come up with that. He’s a physical corner who also has great technique to.

Man stop the nonsense lol
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
It has nothing to do with not trusting his speed. Lol where in the world did you come up with that. He’s a physical corner who also has great technique to.

Man stop the nonsense lol
So him downfield grabbing on guys is just him being physical? Lol. Im not talking about the 5 yard jam zone dude…guys comfortable with their closing speed can keep their hands off..they’re waiting for the ball to get in the air and they’re playing the ball…one of the things i liked about Diggs alot when he came out…guy gets his hands on more balls than any cb in the league…& its why he’s gotten so many ints in his brief career. Sauce on the other hand relies on that contact to keep him in range…cause he doesnt trust his long speed to run with guys outright…one of the reasons he rarely looks back to locate the ball when he’s in man…he be in chase mode..no time to look back for the ball…& that is BAD TECHNIQUE. Anyone whose ever played the position on any level knows that. One of the reasons i’ve never been that high on Ramsey. He’s just a great athlete..technique wise, he’s not that great.

like Deion said..”thats my ball, not his”…
 
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Texansballer74

The Marine
So him downfield grabbing on guys is just him being physical? Lol. Im not talking about the 5 yard jam zone dude…guys comfortable with their closing speed can keep their hands off..they’re waiting for the ball to get in the air and they’re playing the ball…one of the things i liked about Diggs alot when he came out…guy gets his hands on more balls than any cb in the league…& its why he’s gotten so many ints in his brief career. Sauce on the other hand relies on that contact to keep him in range…cause he doesnt trust his long speed to run with guys outright…one of the reasons he rarely looks back to locate the ball when he’s in man…he be in chase mode..no time to look back for the ball…& that is BAD TECHNIQUE. Anyone whose ever played the position on any level knows that. One of the reasons i’ve never been that high on Ramsey. He’s just a great athlete..technique wise, he’s not that great.

like Deion said..”thats my ball, not his”…
Every last Cornerback does that.
 

beerlover

Hall of Fame
We don’t know that. The Jaguars wasn’t good and Ramsey got all kinds of media love. His physical brand of play help and his swagger put the highlights on him. Stingley is pretty quiet even after he make a big play. While Sauce is out there hyped after a big play and he’s trash talking out there too. It also helps that his team in winning.
define “trash” talking
 

beerlover

Hall of Fame
And thats all it really was. Sauce from an injury standpoint was the cleaner prospect…technique wise..speed wise there’s no comparison imo. Part of why Sauce is so handsy is b/c he doesnt really trust his speed to run with guys off the jam or a free release..or his technique to be able to keep him in position to be able to close when he’s beat…has to get his hands on them to hold them up a bit…

Thats why i think what Beerlover states about him being able to flip from cb to safety…he’s more of a safety imo..that 4.4 speed is an illusion…closer to 4.5 guy..his instincts which are 2nd to none put him position more than anything else's..
thats fair statement, except for not trusting speed reason for being handsy. 6’3” plus is more about physics, stopping on a dime and changing directions, no matter how good the feet or loose the hips there is a built in delay. So he does try to minimize that separation in space by grabbing too much at times. Learning to trust his make-up speed (looks elite, catches nearly everybody with that length) and reading the receiver’s body language gets him close enough to position for break-up, often times w/o turning to look for ball. Usually that (turning to look for ball) typically bails out 99% of corners, it’s his length that bails Gardner out.

From here not sure how much hype affects officiating? Certainly possible, he gets calls because of his reputation, the great ones, regardless of position get those calls or no calls. Dion Sanders and Darrell Revis are two I remember getting favorable treatment.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
thats fair statement, except for not trusting speed reason for being handsy. 6’3” plus is more about physics, stopping on a dime and changing directions, no matter how good the feet or loose the hips there is a built in delay. So he does try to minimize that separation in space by grabbing too much at times. Learning to trust his make-up speed (looks elite, catches nearly everybody with that length) and reading the receiver’s body language gets him close enough to position for break-up, often times w/o turning to look for ball. Usually that (turning to look for ball) typically bails out 99% of corners, it’s his length that bails Gardner out.

From here not sure how much hype affects officiating? Certainly possible, he gets calls because of his reputation, the great ones, regardless of position get those calls or no calls. Dion Sanders and Darrell Revis are two I remember getting favorable treatment.
It's called knowing when to push the envelope.
 

Texansballer74

The Marine
Well gentlemen Stingley will not be playing this Sunday.



CB Derek Stingley Jr. (hamstring) and LB Neville Hewitt (hamstring) will not play for the Texans. DE Rasheem Green (illness) is listed as questionable.
 
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Thorn

Dirty Old Man
You know, just cause I'm a really nice guy, I'm not going to jump on this Stingley injury with irritable shouts of I Told You So. It's to early, I'll wait for next week.
 

mussop

Hall of Fame
This debate is over and it has nothing to do with the players. It’s the piss poor use of Stingley by an outdated scheme and coach that has ended it. Until Stingley is used to his strengths this is a waste of time.

remember Lovie’s conversation with Stingley on the phone draft night? WTF!!!
 

beerlover

Hall of Fame
Nothing wrong with that, although we all know Antonio Brown is mental, Richard Sherman had himself personal event less than two years ago and now he is broadcaster on Amazon Thursday Nights. There is a fine line, never demean another player or hurt someone intentionally.

Never seen Gardner do anything remotely close, he loves the game and entertaining fans both home and away. When Packer knocked cheesehead off, never got mad just picked it back up and went back to celebrating with other cheeseheads who will probably remember that post game celebration rest of their lives.
 

Texansballer74

The Marine
Nothing wrong with that, although we all know Antonio Brown is mental, Richard Sherman had himself personal event less than two years ago and now he is broadcaster on Amazon Thursday Nights. There is a fine line, never demean another player or hurt someone intentionally.

Never seen Gardner do anything remotely close, he loves the game and entertaining fans both home and away. When Packer knocked cheesehead off, never got mad just picked it back up and went back to celebrating with other cheeseheads who will probably remember that post game celebration rest of their lives.
From his teammate

 

Texansballer74

The Marine
Nothing wrong with that, although we all know Antonio Brown is mental, Richard Sherman had himself personal event less than two years ago and now he is broadcaster on Amazon Thursday Nights. There is a fine line, never demean another player or hurt someone intentionally.

Never seen Gardner do anything remotely close, he loves the game and entertaining fans both home and away. When Packer knocked cheesehead off, never got mad just picked it back up and went back to celebrating with other cheeseheads who will probably remember that post game celebration rest of their lives.
 

IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
OG Kenyon Green
Grade: D

Green was a puzzling pick by the Texans inside the top half of the first round in April, and after a few encouraging efforts in September, the former Texas A&M blocker who stayed local after college has had a rough go for the Texans. He's allowed 29 pressures of Davis Mills on 311 pass-blocking snaps entering Week 11. Green's film isn't without some devastating run-game blocks, yet even those -- his speciality in college -- have been few and far and in between.
******
The above is from the article of the NFL's grading of first round picks, and again expresses the confusion some of us on the Board have about using such a high pick on an offensive guard who's forte is run-blocking?
I dunno, GD Caserio if you've got such a heart-on for this guy just trade back when he's likely there and get an additional second or third round pick for your #15th ?
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
OG Kenyon Green
Grade: D

Green was a puzzling pick by the Texans inside the top half of the first round in April, and after a few encouraging efforts in September, the former Texas A&M blocker who stayed local after college has had a rough go for the Texans. He's allowed 29 pressures of Davis Mills on 311 pass-blocking snaps entering Week 11. Green's film isn't without some devastating run-game blocks, yet even those -- his speciality in college -- have been few and far and in between.
******
The above is from the article of the NFL's grading of first round picks, and again expresses the confusion some of us on the Board have about using such a high pick on an offensive guard who's forte is run-blocking?
I dunno, GD Caserio if you've got such a heart-on for this guy just trade back when he's likely there and get an additional second or third round pick for your #15th ?
Who is doing the grading? Do you have a link?
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
OG Kenyon Green
Grade: D

Green was a puzzling pick by the Texans inside the top half of the first round in April, and after a few encouraging efforts in September, the former Texas A&M blocker who stayed local after college has had a rough go for the Texans. He's allowed 29 pressures of Davis Mills on 311 pass-blocking snaps entering Week 11. Green's film isn't without some devastating run-game blocks, yet even those -- his speciality in college -- have been few and far and in between.
******
The above is from the article of the NFL's grading of first round picks, and again expresses the confusion some of us on the Board have about using such a high pick on an offensive guard who's forte is run-blocking?
I dunno, GD Caserio if you've got such a heart-on for this guy just trade back when he's likely there and get an additional second or third round pick for your #15th ?
What one talking head thinks doesn’t have that much weight. Look at that guy who was a talking head and went to be GM and then his picks ended up not being so good.

If the talking heads were that good more of them would be offered enough money by teams they couldn’t turn down.

BTW - This is the Sauce Gardner fan club page.

BTW#2 - Kenyon Green has been playing through injury. Prior to that injury he was a bright spot on the line from what I recall.
 

welsh texan

All Pro
OG Kenyon Green
Grade: D

Green was a puzzling pick by the Texans inside the top half of the first round in April, and after a few encouraging efforts in September, the former Texas A&M blocker who stayed local after college has had a rough go for the Texans. He's allowed 29 pressures of Davis Mills on 311 pass-blocking snaps entering Week 11. Green's film isn't without some devastating run-game blocks, yet even those -- his speciality in college -- have been few and far and in between.
******
The above is from the article of the NFL's grading of first round picks, and again expresses the confusion some of us on the Board have about using such a high pick on an offensive guard who's forte is run-blocking?
I dunno, GD Caserio if you've got such a heart-on for this guy just trade back when he's likely there and get an additional second or third round pick for your #15th ?
I don’t know about Green so much but the line as a whole has been noticeably hitting the 2nd level in their blocking for Pierce and those are definite holes he is running through.
The Davis Mills sacks I’ve seen it looks to me like him getting confused by what’s downfield, unable to get his feet from under himself under pressure or a little gunshy, not so much that there is pressure in his face too early.

It’s inconsistent still, but the line play has improved and that is despite the expected
3rd string Center starting pretty much all season long and a nasty nagging injury holding Green back.

I hate hate hate seeing any argument about you should have traded back for the same results, the Texans took him there so you can’t possibly prove that nobody else would have.
 

beerlover

Hall of Fame
Strongly supported by the fact that Zion Johnson went just 2 picks later
Zion has struggled at times but overall really good, probably a B. Pick was driven by collapse of right side of line (Brian Bulaga out w/back after one game, Oday Aboushi done after four games acl, then Pipkin hurt/ineffective and Storm Norton abused by Crosby).

Texans/Lovie must of graded protecting their franchise QB highly too while improving running game, which they have. I only went to Chargers game and unfortunately Keynon had a bad game but overall it’s more like a C or average for rookie LG.
 

OptimisticTexan

2022 Rebuilding Block 2 / Go Texans
Sauce came into the NFL after playing a full season of CFB….and enjoying a very successful Bearcat career.

Stingley came into the NFL after an injury shortened season and that was on the heals of a C-19 shortened season…..but enjoyed a top notch 2019 season that set his NFL value.

Sauce is playing in a defense that’s geared towards his strengths…..and he’s excelling.

Stingley is playing zone versus playing man which would be his strength…..yet he’s having a very decent season.

Sauce will probably remain a top notch CB.

Stingley is learning his new role as a zone CB and definitely possesses all the tools to figure this move out. Stingley will be every bit as good as Sauce as an NFL CB going forward.

I consider both the Jets and Texans fortunate to have these CB’s on their respective teams.
 

Rich Schmidt

Myopicone
Your so wrong. It’s all about evaluating prospects. Believe Stingley has a much better chance this weekend against Commanders and Taylor Heinicke than Gardner vs Patriots in Foxboro but we will see, that’s why they play the game.
Thought CNDD said Stingley was out with a grade 1 hamstring
 
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IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
I hate hate hate seeing any argument about you should have traded back for the same results, the Texans took him there so you can’t possibly prove that nobody else would have.
As a general policy I would not draft interior Olineman that high, so I would be very reluctant to invest that much in a guard, any guard.
For the most part offenses today in the NFL are all about the forward pass and the greatest challenge to the passer is the edge rusher who of course is blocked by tackles and not interior lineman, so the the premium is on athletic ability to defend against the most athletic defensive players rushing the QB.
And yes there are exceptions to where the best athletes on the defense play like DT #99 for the Rams but most of the freaks are
edge rushers.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
As a general policy I would not draft interior Olineman that high, so I would be very reluctant to invest that much in a guard, any guard.
For the most part offenses today in the NFL are all about the forward pass and the greatest challenge to the passer is the edge rusher who of course is blocked by tackles and not interior lineman, so the the premium is on athletic ability to defend against the most athletic defensive players rushing the QB.
And yes there are exceptions to where the best athletes on the defense play like DT #99 for the Rams but most of the freaks are
edge rushers.
Except the Texans new head coach is Lovie Smith who stated pre-draft that the running game was the main focus of the offense. Green was graded out to be the best available run blocking guard so it was a no brainer.
 

beerlover

Hall of Fame
Sauce came into the NFL after playing a full season of CFB….and enjoying a very successful Bearcat career.

Stingley came into the NFL after an injury shortened season and that was on the heals of a C-19 shortened season…..but enjoyed a top notch 2019 season that set his NFL value.

Sauce is playing in a defense that’s geared towards his strengths…..and he’s excelling.


Stingley is playing zone versus playing man which would be his strength…..yet he’s having a very decent season.

Sauce will probably remain a top notch CB.

Stingley is learning his new role as a zone CB and definitely possesses all the tools to figure this move out. Stingley will be every bit as good as Sauce as an NFL CB going forward.

I consider both the Jets and Texans fortunate to have these CB’s on their respective teams.
This should be key factor, in any “war room draft board”. Utilizing player strengths to his and your advantage. Don’t hate the player or judge him incorrectly, because of system he plays in or utilization, build around, with and through him & his teammates.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
As a general policy I would not draft interior Olineman that high, so I would be very reluctant to invest that much in a guard, any guard.
For the most part offenses today in the NFL are all about the forward pass and the greatest challenge to the passer is the edge rusher who of course is blocked by tackles and not interior lineman, so the the premium is on athletic ability to defend against the most athletic defensive players rushing the QB.
And yes there are exceptions to where the best athletes on the defense play like DT #99 for the Rams but most of the freaks are
edge rushers.
You also need a Center that can handle the brute strength of a 350 Lbs man over their nose and get the line calls correct.
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
OG Kenyon Green
Grade: D

Green was a puzzling pick by the Texans inside the top half of the first round in April, and after a few encouraging efforts in September, the former Texas A&M blocker who stayed local after college has had a rough go for the Texans. He's allowed 29 pressures of Davis Mills on 311 pass-blocking snaps entering Week 11. Green's film isn't without some devastating run-game blocks, yet even those -- his speciality in college -- have been few and far and in between.
******
The above is from the article of the NFL's grading of first round picks, and again expresses the confusion some of us on the Board have about using such a high pick on an offensive guard who's forte is run-blocking?
I dunno, GD Caserio if you've got such a heart-on for this guy just trade back when he's likely there and get an additional second or third round pick for your #15th ?

This is for everybody. Duane Brown was rated the 4th lowest LT his rookie year by PFF.

Things change overtime. Nothing is immediate.
 
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IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Except the Texans new head coach is Lovie Smith who stated pre-draft that the running game was the main focus of the offense. Green was graded out to be the best available run blocking guard so it was a no brainer.

This is for everybody. Duane Brown was rated the 4th lowest LT his rookie year by PFF.

Things change overtime. Nothing is immediate.
Perfectly acceptable to use a late first round pick on an OT but Green is an interior lineman who was drafted in the top half of the 1st round, and BTW Brown did turn out to be one of those "dancing bears" who by virture of his athletism could go one-on-one in space and effectively block talented edge rushers.


[/QUOTE]
 

IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Except the Texans new head coach is Lovie Smith who stated pre-draft that the running game was the main focus of the offense. Green was graded out to be the best available run blocking guard so it was a no brainer.
Just because a player is graded high shouldn't make it OK to overpay for him or the position, unless he's a QB.
If this is what actually happened then it's on Caserio or perhaps the ownership for failing to back its GM.
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
Perfectly acceptable to use a late first round pick on an OT but Green is an interior lineman who was drafted in the top half of the 1st round, and BTW Brown did turn out to be one of those "dancing bears" who by virture of his athletism could go one-on-one in space and effectively block talented edge rushers.
[/QUOTE]

The point was looking at the performance of a draft pick in the middle of their rookie season is dumb. He isn’t Kareem Jackson’ing it out there. He is playing very good.
 
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IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
By a team that is in a desperate position.
Hey Tex-Bull that's what I'm trying to say here which is that teams in a desperate position because they have a dearth of talent need to be especially judicious with their Draft picks so they can somehow acquire talent and build up their roster.
 

TexansBull

Hall of Fame
Hey Tex-Bull that's what I'm trying to say here which is that teams in a desperate position because they have a dearth of talent need to be especially judicious with their Draft picks so they can somehow acquire talent and build up their roster.
I agree to an extent.

Texans have to make sure they get what they need and not be Garrapolo’ed like the Patriots did to us.

They are in that much need, which we both agree.

We can’t look at the draft picks and think we could have gotten someone at the same place.

This is the first real draft by Caserio. It will take some time to really get a feel for how he drafts and if he drafts well.
 


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