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Derek Stingley vs. Sauce Gardner

IDEXAN said:
I'm most interested in Stingley injuries because of two reasons: he has that Lis franc injury history, and secondly he was the Texans' highest pick, the 3rd overall in this years Draft.
I'm still totally puzzled and perplexed by the Texans' apparent cavalier or indifferent attitude towards Stingley history in the '22 draft ?
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people are more ready to call him a bust b/c they either wanted another guy…or b/c they didnt want the Texans to pick him in the 1st place & are using his injury history in college to justify it.

For the record too, both the guys i wanted with the Stingley pick, the giants snatched….…1 is out injured & the other is playing but making zero plays or impact.
 
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Speedy said:
Injuries happen. Nothing you can do about that. But injuries to players with injury histories happen a lot more. You up the risk taking on those players, especially higher in the draft like say #3 overall and/or #15 overall.

Stingley may end up being a great pick, and because he's a Texan I hope that's the case, but based on his injury history I would have never taken him #3 overall. Especially not with the talent still on the board there.
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He certainly was not in my thoughts for the #3 pick
 
Mr teX said:
Given we’re so talent depleted and cant afford misses in any of the 1st 2 rounds really, its a “premium” price no matter where they would’ve selected him in the 1st or 2nd which is what you & a few others don’t understand.
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Given that the Texans are so talent-depleted, the GM should have make safer plays , and not talking too much risk.

Taking Mills in the third round instead of a lineman (either side of the ball) is a risk.

Taking players with an injury history is a risk the Texans can't afford.

Let's not go back and forth.

We'll talk in 2024, if Nick Caserio is still here.
 
76Texan said:
Given that the Texans are so talent-depleted, the GM should have make safer plays , and not talking too much risk.

Taking Mills in the third round instead of a lineman (either side of the ball) is a risk.

Taking players with an injury history is a risk the Texans can't afford.

Let's not go back and forth.

We'll talk in 2024, if Nick Caserio is still here.
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Im sure he’ll be here. The real question is whether you’ll own up to statements you’ve made regarding NC if things turn out well b/c we know you claim senility when you get proven wrong…thats what YOU’RE good at 🤣
 
Mr teX said:
Im sure he’ll be here. The real question is whether you’ll own up to statements you’ve made regarding NC if things turn out well b/c we know you claim senility when you get proven wrong…thats what YOU’RE good at 🤣
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I'll be here.
 
Mr teX said:
people are more ready to call him a bust b/c they either wanted another guy…or b/c they didnt want the Texans to pick him in the 1st place & are using his injury history in college to justify it.

For the record too, both the guys i wanted with the Stingley pick, the giants snatched….…1 is out injured & the other is playing but making zero plays or impact.
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Personally I've never even inferred he might be a bust, but I'm concerned about his Lis Fracn injury compromising his
potential to be a competent if not elite starting CB on a long-term basis in the NFL.
 
I am on record multiple times predraft on this. i wanted Sauce. I would not have touched Sting in round 1. Certainly not at 1.3. I might have taken the gamble at 1.15, but really I saw him as a 2nd rounder. At that spot, worth the risk.

I was right on that, like I am right on Mills, and like I will be proven right on tricky Nick. It’s okay, y’all will catch up with me eventually. 😝😇
 
steelbtexan said:
Which isn't a bust, even if Sauce ends up being the better player.
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I don't think he is going to be a bust. However, I don't know if he will be a consistent PB caliber player the way Sauce is looking like he might. Nor do I think we won't be wishing we had taken Sauce. Will he be a top 10 CB...I want him to be but I don't think it is going to happen. Similar to Clowney going 1-1, and not being as good as guys taken later in that draft and others (like Mr. Mack).
 
IDEXAN said:
Personally I've never even inferred he might be a bust, but I'm concerned about his Lis Fracn injury compromising his
potential to be a competent if not elite starting CB on a long-term basis in the NFL.
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You have a good reason to be thinking about that. And to be honest, I don't know if he has the NFL talent to be elite. I hope I'm wrong, but not seeing it
 
Mr teX said:
lol, if a guy tears his ACL in college & then enters the NFL, he typically ain’t tearing the same damn ACL he tore in college man..if it happens to him again, usually its his other “healthy” knee. Same for the Lis Franc…

Point is injuries that happen are typically independent of one another..even with the guys who have medical red flags coming out of college….which im sure most do, we just only hear about the ones concerning big time prospects.

but accordingto your logic, not a single damn player in the NFL would or should be drafted b/c of their higher chance for a concussion;…which you damn well know that every single player has at least sustained 2 or more of those throughout their careers.

people like you assume the previous medicals make them more vulnerable…when in fact those guys have the same probability of sustaining a career altering injury as the perfectly clean prospect does. once again peace of mind about their health counts for next to nothing when these guys enter the league.
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EDIT : did not realize CnnnD has already addressed.

He will correct me if I misspeak but I feel CloaknnnDagger has voiced more than once that a player with injuries of severity do not have same probability of sustaining a career altering injury but just the opposite. There is a reason there is concussion protocols as they DO lead to career ending and often life threatening results. I am surprised you stated otherwise.

I am not saying don't draft a player with injury history but
1) determine as you can extent of injury and expectation of impact. Caserio dropped ball.

2) type injury IE Kenyon Green knee in college is huge red flag for a lineman same with a cornerback for Stingley's torn ligament after first "spraining" it. From sportingnew.com:
The most recent — and most serious — of Stingley's injuries is a torn ligament in his left foot that caused him to miss all but three games of his junior season. Stingley suffered a Lisfranc injury in the week leading up to LSU's Week 4 game against Mississippi State. It was, in fact, an aggravation of a sprain he suffered in the preseason and played through during the first three games.
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I do not hold against him missing opener in 2020 for 'non-covid illness' yet we know he also missed two games for an ankle injury. Evidence was there that he might not be the guy to risk on.

3) priority of position Stingley plays a priority position of dire need so that opens a bit more willingness for me to gamble on.. LG for Green not so much.

4) availability at same position or a higher need of an 'as good' player.. Gardner. I wonder where we would have been today trading down for Tyler Linderbaum OC 910 snaps 3 penalties and 3 sacks allowed PFF 75 rather than Green?
 
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Porky said:
I am on record multiple times predraft on this. i wanted Sauce. I would not have touched Sting in round 1. Certainly not at 1.3. I might have taken the gamble at 1.15, but really I saw him as a 2nd rounder. At that spot, worth the risk.

I was right on that, like I am right on Mills, and like I will be proven right on tricky Nick. It’s okay, y’all will catch up with me eventually. 😝😇
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I’m on record saying pretty much the same thing. That’s who we should’ve drafted.
 
badboy said:
He will correct me if I misspeak but I feel CloaknnnDagger has voiced more than once that a player with injuries of severity do not have same probability of sustaining a career altering injury but just the opposite. There is a reason there is concussion protocols as they DO lead to career ending and often life threatening results. I am surprised you stated otherwise.

I am not saying don't draft a player with injury history but
1) determine as you can extent of injury and expectation of impact. Caserio dropped ball.

2) type injury IE Kenyon Green knee in college is huge red flag for a lineman same with a cornerback for Stingley's torn ligament after first "spraining" it. From sportingnew.com:
I do not hold against him missing opener in 2020 for 'non-covid illness' yet we know he also missed two games for an ankle injury. Evidence was there that he might not be the guy to risk on.

3) priority of position Stingley plays a priority position of dire need so that opens a bit more willingness for me to gamble on.. LG for Green not so much.

4) availability at same position or a higher need of an 'as good' player.. Gardner. I wonder where we would have been today trading down for Tyler Linderbaum OC 910 snaps 3 penalties and 3 sacks allowed PFF 75 rather than Green?
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I understand what you guys are trying to say, & i respect most of y'all's opinion on it, i just think it's 1 of those things that gets said b/c someone a long time ago said it when it may have had more validity & now its not as true as it may have once been.....Kinda like that statement "defense wins championships".

"expectation of impact" factors in many things, not just injury history & teams very often choose how much weight they want to place on that depending on a number of factors..Overall talent on the team, role and as we've seen with Stingley with Lovie having him playing more zone when he was supposedly better in man, scheme fit or how the HC wants him to play.

I hear you tho man. Kenyon Green i didn't pay too much attention to..the little bit i did see of him i just wasn't impressed so i relied on the opinion of others in here who said he was legit.

Time will tell for all the guys involved.
 
Texansballer74 said:
I’m on record saying pretty much the same thing. That’s who we should’ve drafted.
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Nick Caserio wanted Sauce from the way he was talking him up on his visit to Houston. He didn't even mention Stingley being here if I remember correctly. Then on draft day...Stingley is the pick. I was honestly in shock when I heard his name. Expecting to hear Sauce as the pick. I honestly think that Stingley was a Lovie and Cal, maybe even Easterby pick. Caserio knows from his time in NE that if you draft a bust, fine. However, don't up the odds by picking an injured player on top of it.
 
Mr teX said:
I understand what you guys are trying to say, & i respect most of y'all's opinion on it, i just think it's 1 of those things that gets said b/c someone a long time ago said it when it may have had more validity & now its not as true as it may have once been.....Kinda like that statement "defense wins championships".

"expectation of impact" factors in many things, not just injury history & teams very often choose how much weight they want to place on that depending on a number of factors..Overall talent on the team, role and as we've seen with Stingley with Lovie having him playing more zone when he was supposedly better in man, scheme fit or how the HC wants him to play.

I hear you tho man. Kenyon Green i didn't pay too much attention to..the little bit i did see of him i just wasn't impressed so i relied on the opinion of others in here who said he was legit.

Time will tell for all the guys involved.
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yeah and for me keep rehashing same ol is not going to resolve anything and tooting our horns about what we said or would of done does little. They are our guys so.. I just want us to learn from history and do better. I think Caserio is up for criticism if he doesn't.
 
SnakeEyes said:
No joke, he has been showing Deion Sanders or Revis Island type ability at times. Stingley has some serious catching up to do
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Sauce don't travel & Teams simply move thier #1 away from him & let him primarily guard the #2 or 3 most times & try to double/bracket wherever the #1 goes. So while it looks good in the stats dept for him with certain guys tweeting out things like above, and for him that he's playing well and shutting guys down, its not having the same effect that a normal shutdown CB's presence would ala Revis/Deion etc...guys who followed the #1 around...even in the slot at times. That's part of the reason they've lost the last 3 games.
 
SnakeEyes said:
Nick Caserio wanted Sauce from the way he was talking him up on his visit to Houston. He didn't even mention Stingley being here if I remember correctly. Then on draft day...Stingley is the pick. I was honestly in shock when I heard his name. Expecting to hear Sauce as the pick. I honestly think that Stingley was a Lovie and Cal, maybe even Easterby pick. Caserio knows from his time in NE that if you draft a bust, fine. However, don't up the odds by picking an injured player on top of it.
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It was a Lovie pick.
 
Mr teX said:
Sauce don't travel & Teams simply move thier #1 away from him & let him primarily guard the #2 or 3 most times & try to double/bracket wherever the #1 goes. So while it looks good in the stats dept for him with certain guys tweeting out things like above, and for him that he's playing well and shutting guys down, its not having the same effect that a normal shutdown CB's presence would ala Revis/Deion etc...guys who followed the #1 around...even in the slot at times. That's part of the reason they've lost the last 3 games.
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Sometimes stats lie.

That's why I'm not a big PFF guy
 
Gardner not targeted once vs Lions. All this talk/investment in a top CB prospect? If he does become elite, teams can just not target him. As if he didn’t play (Stingley). It’s a strange conundrum to have, both players.
 
Those who follow me know I had Kayvon Thibodeaux as Texans target from beginning of last season. Realized over time Texans would not select him, so kept open about other options, but damn he’s been looking like thought he could be. Elite, defensive playmaker, and it’s much harder to game plan DE out as much as a CB. Just fyi, note to self, positional value/impact does make a difference and reason BPA not always followed.
 
beerlover said:
Those who follow me know I had Kayvon Thibodeaux as Texans target from beginning of last season. Realized over time Texans would not select him, so kept open about other options, but damn he’s been looking like thought he could be. Elite, defensive playmaker, and it’s much harder to game plan DE out as much as a CB. Just fyi, note to self, positional value/impact does make a difference and reason BPA not always followed.
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I would be interested in knowing if anyone said Thibs was overrated, took plays off, etc.

He looked really good last night.
 
He is weird and unique and strange and (Thib) with all that said, he was not going to be the pick here. But he is balling. I was wrong on him, time to fess up. I thought the guy was a total flake, and would be a bust. I was wrong.
 
Two reasons I took him off Texan board. Injury red flags but more importantly to Kirby board room, cultural fit. He appears to be a diva, and there is some to it but largely he’s a great guy who’s just interested in hunting QB’s and tracking down the football at all levels.
 
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Mr teX said:
Sauce don't travel & Teams simply move thier #1 away from him & let him primarily guard the #2 or 3 most times & try to double/bracket wherever the #1 goes. So while it looks good in the stats dept for him with certain guys tweeting out things like above, and for him that he's playing well and shutting guys down, its not having the same effect that a normal shutdown CB's presence would ala Revis/Deion etc...guys who followed the #1 around...even in the slot at times. That's part of the reason they've lost the last 3 games.
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Yep Tunsil only playing Left Tackle and giving up only one sack should keep him from pro bowl. If the rules allowed it I'd just bet he would move to whichever side the best defensive rusher is expected to be on. Then he might be worth his pay check.
 
badboy said:
Yep Tunsil only playing Left Tackle and giving up only one sack should keep him from pro bowl. If the rules allowed it I'd just bet he would move to whichever side the best defensive rusher is expected to be on. Then he might be worth his pay check.
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the rules do allow it…but i doubt he’d be the same guy on the right side lol & im sure he knows that
 
Porky said:
He is weird and unique and strange and (Thib) with all that said, he was not going to be the pick here. But he is balling. I was wrong on him, time to fess up. I thought the guy was a total flake, and would be a bust. I was wrong.
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Good for you to say you were wrong on a player. Most people don’t have that courage or to make a bet on a player like that.
 
TexansBull said:
I would be interested in knowing if anyone said Thibs was overrated, took plays off, etc.

He looked really good last night.
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How was he doing before last night?

He was obviously better the Redskins OT's

Put him up against Tunsil and let's see how he does?
 
SnakeEyes said:
Nick Caserio wanted Sauce from the way he was talking him up on his visit to Houston. He didn't even mention Stingley being here if I remember correctly. Then on draft day...Stingley is the pick. I was honestly in shock when I heard his name. Expecting to hear Sauce as the pick. I honestly think that Stingley was a Lovie and Cal, maybe even Easterby pick. Caserio knows from his time in NE that if you draft a bust, fine. However, don't up the odds by picking an injured player on top of it.
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badboy said:
Yep Tunsil only playing Left Tackle and giving up only one sack should keep him from pro bowl. If the rules allowed it I'd just bet he would move to whichever side the best defensive rusher is expected to be on. Then he might be worth his pay check.
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I dunno do we have Tunsil under contract beyond the current season ?
 
Last offseason, pre-draft debates raged over which prospects deserved to be atop the premier positions: quarterback, wide receiver, edge rusher, offensive tackle and cornerback. At corner, Ahmad Gardner and Derek Stingley Jr. stood effectively as equals, two near-perfect examples of what you’d like to have in a No. 1 prospect. I’d like to use that CB conversation from last year to reevaluate those two prospects — what I thought then against what I think today — and decipher what matters most in parsing a talented 2023 class of corners.

Let’s start with the potential Defensive Rookie of the Year. Sauce Gardner fits into Robert Saleh’s New York defense as a lockdown, bump-and run corner, which is an exact match to the way Cincinnati used him in a man-heavy scheme under former defensive coordinator Marcus Freeman (now Notre Dame’s head coach) and former head coach Luke Fickell (now with Wisconsin).

Gardner doesn’t travel with receivers often, but the Jets trust him to cover those elite playmakers. In Week 14, for example, Gardner lined up against Buffalo’s Stefon Diggs multiple times, and Josh Allen didn’t bother to look in his direction much, even when the coverage shell made it evident there would be one-on-one opportunities. In Week 15, on 38 pass attempts, Lions quarterback Jared Goff didn’t target Gardner at all.

Gardner has played with great patience and physicality at the line of scrimmage, and at the top of routes to stay in-phase throughout the entire route tree. He has even better ball skills in the NFL than I expected him to have at this age and leads the league in passes defended (16). He’s played like an All-Pro, essentially from the moment he put on a Jets jersey, and he’s on a trajectory that eventually could land him as the best cornerback in the NFL — possibly, while he’s still on his rookie contract.

I believed Stingley to be the more polished and versatile prospect headed into the draft (and I stand by my stance), but there’s something to be said for how Gardner has stepped into the league with a clearly overwhelming strength and leaned into it within the structure of the Jets’ defense.

Stingley, meanwhile, has missed the last month of football while nursing a pulled hamstring, but there’s enough tape from his first nine games to draw some early conclusions about his play. Lovie Smith and the Texans defensive staff have designed something unique in the secondary around Stingley (and rookie safety Jalen Pitre, for that matter).

Houston does its best to play matchup football: Stingley travels with the offense’s most dangerous perimeter threat, wherever they may align. Usually, you’d see an outside corner do that to play tight press coverage, even if they have help over the top. Houston, however, plays a majority of the game with off coverage and in softer zone shells. I’m still not sure it’s the best way to use Stingley, who was excellent in press coverage at LSU, but it’s been interesting to watch him play in a way that’s divorced from his standout traits.

In his nine appearances, Stingley exhibited smoothness in his hip transitions and, most importantly, showed a feel and understanding of a) the coverage scheme he was asked to execute and b) the route combinations he expected to see. He doesn’t get as many opportunities to play the ball as I would like in these zone looks, often on account of offenses attacking Houston’s linebackers and other interior defenders in the passing game, but he still had five pass breakups and an interception over his first two months.

Who knows how long the tenure will be for Smith’s regime in Houston, which has tied as many games as it’s won thus far (1-12-1). But if the next staff wants to run something more zone-heavy, Stingley should be prepared. I’d say Stingley is comfortably behind Gardner so far — and I may be willing to hear arguments for Tariq Woolen’s breakout campaign — but I still see Stingley as a true franchise-level cornerback with enough versatility to fit into any scheme.
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theathletic.com

What Sauce Gardner and Derek Stingley Jr. can teach us about the top 2023 CBs

Can Kelee Ringo, Christian Gonzalez or Joey Porter Jr. follow in the footsteps of the star cornerbacks of last year's draft class?
theathletic.com theathletic.com
 
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