DC and VY from a coach point of view

[dat_boy_yec]

Young produced so much more than Carr in college, Carr only had a few good games in college. VY has taken a team to two championships...VY is a leader and thats exactly what DC isnt. DC has been given 4 years to prove himself as a franchise QB and it still hasnt happend..how long does houston have to wait for him to improve?

Overall VY is a better player than DC whether hes steped on an NFL field or not....VY is the furture for the Texans somethin that DC cant be

Where's your proof Young produced more than Carr in college. I'm using these stats from Texanchicks research.

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

David Carr (last college season-including bowl game), Drafted 1st, 6'3", 220lbs

4830 passing yards
64.5 completion percentage
532 attempts for 343 completions, 9.1 av yards per attempt
46 passing TDs with 9 INTs
93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs

So excuse my math, but Carr had 4904 total yds. and Young had 4086 total yds. So I don't know where your logic comes from but it would appear Carr produced more than Young. Also if you see the parentheses on Carr he too led a team to a bowl game. Now you don't even know what will happen when Vince hits the field but you're saying he's already better than a four yr. veteran who holds the record for sacks (that's toughness) came in second in rushing for QB's behind only Vick 2 yrs. running (guy can run 2) and keeps coming back for more (that's called commitment) Now is it just me or does anybody see this logic as a little bit flawed.

 

[Koolbrz]

VY would probly get us to a super bowl quicker than DC will. Im not saying its 100% DC's fault we suck but it is at least 75-80% why we do. DC has no leadership cant carry the texans to a 3 game win streak he barely got his 2 game winners.

It takes at least 2-3 years for a QB to improve from the start of his rookie season. DC is a 4 year experienced QB that shows no sign of improvment and is a defences favorite target. VY is a leader his teamates trust him and believe in him he can put this team back together plus he can take over a game at all cost. 2 4th quarter comebacks in 2 championship games. VY has probly experienced more than DC has ever had and VY isnt even a pro yet.

So check back with me in 2-3 years when DC is on the bench watching VY take the team to a SB. DC taking Texans to the SB...LMAO...YEAH RIGHT!!!!!

Show me where i said that DC would take us to the superbowl. Second it will take 3-4 yrs for VY to learn how to be an NFL QB. Learn how to read a defense, develop that avg. arm, and we still have to see how he is going to take the pounding NFL defenses are going to put on him. These guys are not 18-20 yr. olds trying to tackle. His teammates are still in school and is going to have to gain his new teammates trust all over again. You can not expect him to do in the NFL what he did in college. At least not right away. You think DC is a target, VY will be more of a target. Simple reason for me saying this. He is a big guy that likes to run ala M. Vick. You see what defense's did to MV this yr. They will pretty much play VY the same way. So if your still around in 2-3 yrs. i will ask you what you think about VY and i will also tell you what i think about DC. In all honesty i would rather face VY 2 times a yr. than have to face RB 2 times a yr. Enough said

 

[Wolf]

It is humous the am't of threads on this board that already have either Bush or Young pencilled in as 1) either getting a Super Bowl win within a few years ..or 2) already getting fitted for the HOF

:brickwall

I guess optimism is great...yet if you feel they are going to get one, that means the Texans aren't getting a Super Bowl win..

 

[Texans_Chick]

He is a big guy that likes to run ala M. Vick. You see what defense's did to MV this yr. They will pretty much play VY the same way. So if your still around in 2-3 yrs. i will ask you what you think about VY and i will also tell you what i think about DC. In all honesty i would rather face VY 2 times a yr. than have to face RB 2 times a yr. Enough said

Statistically, VY was a much better passer than MV was in college, and this also considering that he didn't play the 4th quarter of many games.

I researched the stats of various college QBs because people on the MB were blindly throwing up comparisons that I didn't think were terribly apt. Personally, my eyes and the stats tell me that VY is not very similar to any QB that we have seen before. 3000/1000 is sick.

Saw this quote today, and though I am not sure how completely fair this is, I thought it was kinda funny as one of many outta control analogies:

Shannon Sharpe may not be Emeril, but he had food on his mind when discussing the merits of Reggie Bush and Vince Young in the coming NFL draft.

Speaking on his Sirius Satellite Radio show, Sharpe said: "Reggie Bush is a TV dinner. He's already prepared. Just warm him up and let him go.

"Vince Young is a Thanksgiving dinner. You've got to prepare it. Now, when he's prepared? Ooh, boy, are you going to have something nice."

And for the general manager who makes the wrong choice? Heartburn.

Link

Anyone that says that they know for sure what is gonna happen with these players should be playing the stock market and making big money instead of wasting their time goofing off on a MB. We don't know how they are gonna be for sure in the NFL, we can only postulate outta our posteriors, as we have a great deal of expertise at that particular pastime. Not an insult, just an observation.

 

[Koolbrz]

It is humous the am't of threads on this board that already have either Bush or Young pencilled in as 1) either getting a Super Bowl win within a few years ..or 2) already getting fitted for the HOF

:brickwall

I guess optimism is great...yet if you feel they are going to get one, that means the Texans aren't getting a Super Bowl win..

I'm not putting anyone in the SB or HOF. That is something that they are going to have to earn. For all we know they both blow out there knees and never reach there potential.

 

[Wolf]

I'm not putting anyone in the SB or HOF. That is something that they are going to have to earn. For all we know they both blow out there knees and never reach there potential.

oh I wasn't singling you out, just stating general..

Personally I feel If VY were to get drafted.. his development would be stalled in Houston... Why? we dont' have the OL ,TE and #2 WR .. and far from a defense to help carry him to the playoffs ... maybe in 4 years now

Bush.. we have a Run blocking line but teams are going to overload us again with 8 in the box, bush would get yards cuts out Bush's effectiveness (see above)

The Texans made their bed and have to sleep on it... (with the OL and defense in the shape it is in)... will I be happy if we get a sweet deal to trade down.. heck yeah... would I be happy if we took VY or RB... yes, I feel there wasn't a deal good enough for a trade down (I'd want a SD-Giants type deal at least for these hyped up players)

 

[texarg]

Overall VY is a better player than DC whether hes steped on an NFL field or not....VY is the furture for the Texans somethin that DC cant be

VY is the furture for the Texans somethin that DC cant be

maybe kubiak doesnt think the same way and give carr a 3 years ext...
and maybe carr still can be the future of texans and VY can be the future of .....(fill in the blank whit any other team).

 

[Koolbrz]

Statistically, VY was a much better passer than MV was in college, and this also considering that he didn't play the 4th quarter of many games.

I researched the stats of various college QBs because people on the MB were blindly throwing up comparisons that I didn't think were terribly apt. Personally, my eyes and the stats tell me that VY is not very similar to any QB that we have seen before. 3000/1000 is sick.

Saw this quote today, and though I am not sure how completely fair this is, I thought it was kinda funny as one of many outta control analogies:



Link

Anyone that says that they know for sure what is gonna happen with these players should be playing the stock market and making big money instead of wasting their time goofing off on a MB. We don't know how they are gonna be for sure in the NFL, we can only postulate outta our posteriors, as we have a great deal of expertise at that particular pastime. Not an insult, just an observation.

You keep comparing college stats. Honestly, what does that mean in the NFL? Nothing. Its a whole different ballgame now. Once they hit the field all those college stats are out the window. The only reason i compare VY to MV is because they are the same type of player. They can both make big plays with there legs and have decent arms. MV's big plays are now few and far between. Defenses have faced him for a few yrs and are containing him now. So when VY hits the field they will more than likely play him the same way. True, we don't know what is going to happen. One thing is for sure though defenses will be ready for him.

 

[Koolbrz]

oh I wasn't singling you out, just stating general..

Personally I feel If VY were to get drafted.. his development would be stalled in Houston... Why? we dont' have the OL ,TE and #2 WR .. and far from a defense to help carry him to the playoffs ... maybe in 4 years now

Bush.. we have a Run blocking line but teams are going to overload us again with 8 in the box, bush would get yards cuts out Bush's effectiveness (see above)

The Texans made their bed and have to sleep on it... (with the OL and defense in the shape it is in)... will I be happy if we get a sweet deal to trade down.. heck yeah... would I be happy if we took VY or RB... yes, I feel there wasn't a deal good enough for a trade down (I'd want a SD-Giants type deal at least for these hyped up players)

I agree with most of what you said. I just feel that if we do draft Bush we can use him in more ways than one. You more than likely have heard it all. You know the many ways he can be used. Now, add DD into the mix and i honestly believe that defenses will back off. Hopefully Mathis will get some playing time in the slot along with AJ and if we are lucky, we can maybe add a rookie by the name of Moss. IMO he is very fast and kinda reminds me of S. Smith. Not as strong, but has the big play potential. Now do you really think defenses will stack the line with all that speed on the field. Let me know what you think.

 

[TreWardTxn]

If UT had more of a pure QB like David Carr there with Vince, they would have moved Vince over to WR earlier in his career there and we wouldn't even be talking about him as a QB right now.

This is just flat out wrong. You have to remember that they guy redshirted and he practiced during the spring at the position he was slated to play, which was always QB, even when Simms was the starter and Mock looked to be next in line. If Mack did not assure Vince of keeping him at QB during recruitment he would have never committed to Texas, and Bobby Bowden would have (at least) one more NC ring...

 

[texarg]

Well, First:


Vince improved, and changed his game...... he became more of a passer, than a runner. He did this by working with McNair in the offseason. I agree he still has problems with his game. I agree he should sit out his first year. But I think he is mature enough, and bright enough to play through it. Yes there will be some losses, but you'll still be able to see his potential everygame.

Personally, I was hoping Vince would make himself eligible for this draft, when you guys were screaming Reggie Bowl.

To me, David Carr is the perfect Quarterback for the Texans. Just like Quincy was perfect for the Cowboys. Talented, mobile, and exciting enough, to keep the fans interested, and happy..... that is until that special QB comes along, and we don't have to give up an arm and a leg to get him. Well, that QB is Vince... Matt's good, but he ain't no Peyton........ not even close, I don't care how NFL ready he is.

Vince, is McNabb, Montana, Bret Favre all rolled into one.

Now, I know some of you hate when we project what we think Vince is going to do in the NFL....... especially, when we say it like it's a fore gone conclussion........

so I'll say it again.

Vince iis McNabb, Montana, & Bret Favre all rolled into one.

interesting but...

McNabb pick 2, Favre 33, Montana 82...
McNabb 0 SB, Favre 1, Montana 4...

maybe we should take a QB in a late round (4 or higher) and Bush with the firts...just an stadistics tough.

if you use the trigonomic function to extract the cosine of the square root of those numbers, mutliplied by each players carrer points, wins, and completion percentage..... it will equal #1 overall.

i did it, and the answer was : never take a QB with the first!...ok i dont like mathematics and maybe its not the correct answer...

but all i say is what stadistics shows : "only" elway and aikman formers QBs picks "1" won a SB...neither montana (#82), favre (#33) or even brady (# 199 overall!!!) was top prospect in their drafts and have GREATS carrers.

if VY became a Texans would be great, he is a great player (no doubt), but its a huge risk take a QB with nr. 1, give him a huge contract and...and we already know whats happens, DC was former nr. 1 , top prospect bla bla bla...and here we are again: with the 1st = the worst team in the league.
We allready have a decent Qb, build something good around him a make a "winner team" not just a winner Qb

As long as your idea doesn't include drafting Bush, I'm with you.

allready have this conversation before... why the change now??


and i still think that if we dont trade down, reggie will be the best player for texans situation right now.

 

[texarg]

Anyone that says that they know for sure what is gonna happen with these players should be playing the stock market and making big money instead of wasting their time goofing off on a MB. We don't know how they are gonna be for sure in the NFL, we can only postulate outta our posteriors, as we have a great deal of expertise at that particular pastime. Not an insult, just an observation.

anyone cant talk with yesterday newspaper...its funniest to talk about the future!!

 

[Texans_Chick]

You keep comparing college stats. Honestly, what does that mean in the NFL? Nothing. Its a whole different ballgame now. Once they hit the field all those college stats are out the window. The only reason i compare VY to MV is because they are the same type of player. They can both make big plays with there legs and have decent arms. MV's big plays are now few and far between. Defenses have faced him for a few yrs and are containing him now. So when VY hits the field they will more than likely play him the same way. True, we don't know what is going to happen. One thing is for sure though defenses will be ready for him.

All I can do for VY is to quote college stats and try to make projections from that. It is imprecise, to be sure, and stats don't mean everything, but at least from those metrics, Vick and Young don't seem to be the same player.

Young's college stats were much better than Vick's. Notably his throwing stats were better than his.

Young is a bigger player and his running style is much different than Vicks.

I guess you can say that they are comparable because they have more melanin than some.

But I've made a case for why that Vince may project to be a different player than Vick, and you have just repeated what your opinion is by saying that they both can run. That and a nickle will get you laughed out of Starbucks.

I guess because Vick has had a down year, no QB who can throw and run will have success. My logic gland just exploded.

 

[TreWardTxn]

So, if M. Leinart and VY had been the QB's this year at UT (or USC), VY would not have started....(?).
If DC and VY were availables in the same draft, who do you think would be the nr 1? impossible to know. You can say the WAC is weak and UT is in a more competitive league...but that include that VY has a better suporting cast that Carr so is logic to think that is more difficult to put good numbers in Fresno. The league doesnt mean much in this (DC vs VY).
Check the stats of their last year at college and wait for the result of the scouting combine for a fair comp.

BTW : ML is the best QB available in this draft (check the stats...3 Nat Champ games, 2 wins...etc etc).

People tend to misinterpret the talent situation, so I hope this one brings some clarity to the situation. Everything is relative. It is easy to put up huge numbers with lesser offensive talent against sub-par defensive talent because offense always has the advantage in knowing the play and those (slower) defensive players do not have the ability to disrupt plays as regularly. As far as DC and VY are concerned, VY saw about as many NFL quality defensive players playing against OU the past 2-3 years than DC saw his entire collegiate career. Games against OSU, USC, even A&M and T Tech clearly push him over the top. We constantly hear that the hardest thing about adjusting to the NFL is the speed, and it is undeniable that the Big 12 showcases faster, stronger, quicker, and more complex defenses than the WAC did, regardless of offensive talent...

 

[tsip]

If UT had more of a pure QB like David Carr there with Vince, they would have moved Vince over to WR earlier in his career there and we wouldn't even be talking about him as a QB right now.

...your posts always astound me!!...but that's what the future is for, no BS there!!! I'm just wait'in for Carr to show up

 

[TreWardTxn]

Where's your proof Young produced more than Carr in college. I'm using these stats from Texanchicks research.

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

David Carr (last college season-including bowl game), Drafted 1st, 6'3", 220lbs

4830 passing yards
64.5 completion percentage
532 attempts for 343 completions, 9.1 av yards per attempt
46 passing TDs with 9 INTs
93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs

So excuse my math, but Carr had 4904 total yds. and Young had 4086 total yds. So I don't know where your logic comes from but it would appear Carr produced more than Young. Also if you see the parentheses on Carr he too led a team to a bowl game. Now you don't even know what will happen when Vince hits the field but you're saying he's already better than a four yr. veteran who holds the record for sacks (that's toughness) came in second in rushing for QB's behind only Vick 2 yrs. running (guy can run 2) and keeps coming back for more (that's called commitment) Now is it just me or does anybody see this logic as a little bit flawed.

I don't mean to be a stickler, but factor in all snaps Young sat out as a result of blowing teams out in the 2nd half and the OC calling nothing but running plays to grind the game out, and you can kinda see the point dude was trying to make...Personally, I think all the talk about numbers makes no sense, because in the end, no one will care what you did in college. This is more about playing style and will to win; I like the guy who turns negative plays to positive and average players to gamers, that's who I want heading my team...

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

Holy cow....this thread has like 14 pages.

 

[Nighthawk]

I know that DC can be average,

Can he get an Amen? Amen. Of course, DC has a ways to go yet before he gets to average.

 

[Nighthawk]

All I can do for VY is to quote college stats and try to make projections from that. It is imprecise, to be sure, and stats don't mean everything, but at least from those metrics, Vick and Young don't seem to be the same player.

Young's college stats were much better than Vick's. Notably his throwing stats were better than his.

Young is a bigger player and his running style is much different than Vicks.

I guess you can say that they are comparable because they have more melanin than some.

But I've made a case for why that Vince may project to be a different player than Vick, and you have just repeated what your opinion is by saying that they both can run. That and a nickle will get you laughed out of Starbucks.

I guess because Vick has had a down year, no QB who can throw and run will have success. My logic gland just exploded.

Young is a cross between Big Ben, Favre, Cunningham, and somebody else who doesn't go down easy even when hit by linebackers.

 

[thunderkyss]

allready have this conversation before... why the change now??


and i still think that if we dont trade down, reggie will be the best player for texans situation right now.

What change?? I'm still saying take Vince...... but it is hard to argue, when you bring up the facts about other #1 overall QBs... especially this one:

te:
Originally Posted by texarg
and we already know whats happens, DC was former nr. 1 , top prospect bla bla bla...and here we are again: with the 1st = the worst team in the league.

New England also had a "decent" QB...... the dynamics of the team changed when their QB changed.... that's all I'm saying.

 

[Dean 74]

did you see the teaser during nbc olympic coverage on the shroud of turin where you can see a faint outline of a #10 jersey?

 

[expwrlifter]

Wow,

alot of pages written about this topic.. Whats funny is we have people who say college stats matter and then the dont. The one that is funny is about DC in college and how he would start over VY... Sorry guys dont think he would have... Chance Mock was a great HS QB and was highly recruited. VY outplayed him and the only reason he didnt start ahead of Mock his second year was because he hadnt fine tuned his passing skills. But after talking to alot of coaches there at the spring scrimmage they said it would only be a matter of time before he took over as QB.. VY has the tools to get it done just give him a chance. Also VY throws down hill because he is 6'5. He sees the whole field and not just one guy like some other guy we know of..

As for the stats.. DC played in WAC... look at the record books for QB's and find out who has the QB records for passing... last time I knew of off the top of my head it would be the.... WAC QB's.. and one other guy named.... Klinger... from U of H... and remember he was a hit in college with all those passing stats but remember he played in an offense that made him excel such as the TT QB's... Its crazy to say that DC would have played QB and VY a WR... guys he committed to UT because they gave him the chance to play QB and he beat a pocket QB...

Answer this guys... VY and DC start out as Rookie QB's ... who would you build your team around? Remember DC is going to learn a new offense such as VY will...

 

[bigTEXan8]

Answer this guys... VY and DC start out as Rookie QB's ... who would you build your team around? Remember DC is going to learn a new offense such as VY will...

I'll sound like a , but I don't care. I would take Carr, because I would rather have a pocket QB than a scrambler. Not only is VY a scrambler QB, but he's also a zone-read QB, and I just don't think that translates well into the NFL.

 

[tsip]

"rather have a pocket QB "

Carr has no clue how to use the pocket!

 

[texarg]

Answer this guys... VY and DC start out as Rookie QB's ... who would you build your team around? Remember DC is going to learn a new offense such as VY will...

no doubt: MATT LEINART

 

[powerfuldragon]

"rather have a pocket QB "

Carr has no clue how to use the pocket!

what pocket has he had?

 

[texarg]

People tend to misinterpret the talent situation, so I hope this one brings some clarity to the situation. Everything is relative. It is easy to put up huge numbers with lesser offensive talent against sub-par defensive talent because offense always has the advantage in knowing the play and those (slower) defensive players do not have the ability to disrupt plays as regularly. As far as DC and VY are concerned, VY saw about as many NFL quality defensive players playing against OU the past 2-3 years than DC saw his entire collegiate career. Games against OSU, USC, even A&M and T Tech clearly push him over the top. We constantly hear that the hardest thing about adjusting to the NFL is the speed, and it is undeniable that the Big 12 showcases faster, stronger, quicker, and more complex defenses than the WAC did, regardless of offensive talent...

again: ML is the best QB available in this draft

 

[texarg]

What change?? I'm still saying take Vince...... but it is hard to argue, when you bring up the facts about other #1 overall QBs... especially this one:

Originally Posted by texarg
and we already know whats happens, DC was former nr. 1 , top prospect bla bla bla...and here we are again: with the 1st = the worst team in the league.



New England also had a "decent" QB...... the dynamics of the team changed when their QB changed.... that's all I'm saying.

this means: isnt enough with a QB pick 1 to win games (not to talk about SB). Carr cant do it, VY cant do it, any QB cant. Only Elway and Aikman (formers "qb 1") won a SB and only after they had a great sup cast(def, off, s.teams)

New england change their qb (Drew B) for another taken whit the #199 (Brady) and before this qb change, they build a "team" (solid defense, great specials teams, good OL-WR). they didnt start whit a new qb.

 

[Vinny]

this means: isnt enough with a QB pick 1 to win games (not to talk about SB). Carr cant do it, VY cant do it, any QB cant. Only Elway and Aikman (formers "qb 1") won a SB and only after they had a great sup cast(def, off, s.teams)

Elway won two Super Bowls in his last years because the team was good enough by then. On the way to those titles he took them to the Super Bowl in his 4th, 5th and 7th seasons....mostly on his back.

New england change their qb (Drew B) for another taken whit the #199 (Brady) and before this qb change, they build a "team" (solid defense, great specials teams, good OL-WR). they didnt start whit a new qb.

They tried to from what I can see. They drafted Drew Bledsoe first overall. He never lived up to his pick and when Brady took over it was all over for Drew in NE.

 

[bigTEXan8]

"rather have a pocket QB "

Carr has no clue how to use the pocket!

Not after fours years of having his *** handed to him and no team to help him. DC would have been "pocket QB" if it wasn't for the lack a team, but I still think that DC could be a "pocket QB." Besides, that's not the question. If both DC and VY came up at the same time, I'd take DC since that I think he has a stronger arm, would be a better leader. This decision has nothing to do with what Carr has done so far into his career, but looking at what DC and VY have done in their college careers and coming out at the same time, I would still select DC.

 

[CarrIsFine]

People tend to misinterpret the talent situation, so I hope this one brings some clarity to the situation. Everything is relative. It is easy to put up huge numbers with lesser offensive talent against sub-par defensive talent because offense always has the advantage in knowing the play and those (slower) defensive players do not have the ability to disrupt plays as regularly. As far as DC and VY are concerned, VY saw about as many NFL quality defensive players playing against OU the past 2-3 years than DC saw his entire collegiate career. Games against OSU, USC, even A&M and T Tech clearly push him over the top. We constantly hear that the hardest thing about adjusting to the NFL is the speed, and it is undeniable that the Big 12 showcases faster, stronger, quicker, and more complex defenses than the WAC did, regardless of offensive talent...

I would rather not harp on college stats, but since you don't care to do any research, here are two interesting games from Carr's senior year against the 13th and 14th rated pass defenses in the country:

Oregon State: 340 yds, 4 TD, 0 INT

Michigan State: 531 yds, 4 TD, 2 INT

870 YDS & 8 TDs against 2 top 15 passing defenses? Doesn't seem to agree with your theory.

 

[OzzO]

Can he get an Amen? Amen. Of course, DC has a ways to go yet before he gets to average.

2005 - 20th in passer rating
2004 - 16th in passer rating
2003 - 29th in passer rating

So, yeah - stats can mislead and don't tell the whole story.... and not sure what average he needs to get to, but he was in the average range of passer rating in 2004 so, he "got there" with that. Interesting he was closer to the middle in the '05 year than '03.

Anyway.

 

[expwrlifter]

BigTexan,
Hey to tell you this but you said VY is a zone-read QB...

What do you think Cover 2 is...it is a zone coverage.. most teams play these when they are not blitzing and then when they do they go to Man or Cover 1 as we call it.. Why do you think the Cowboys get burnt all the time they play cover 2 alot. (Redskin Game MNF).

Can someone find out who the Oilers had to choose from in the "Air" McNair Draft? If I am not mistaken I think everyone in houston was excited about having that Different style QB..

 

[infantrycak]

The one that is funny is about DC in college and how he would start over VY... Sorry guys dont think he would have...

I can see someone thinking either way. People shouldn't treat it as fact either way though.

Chance Mock was a great HS QB and was highly recruited.

And he was a mediocre college QB so how highly recruited he was is irrelevant.

VY outplayed him and the only reason he didnt start ahead of Mock his second year was because he hadnt fine tuned his passing skills.

Translation for those not trying to give benefit to VY--VY would have started over Mock his second year but the coaches didn't think his passing was good enough yet, i.e. he hadn't overall outplayed Mock yet.

But after talking to alot of coaches there at the spring scrimmage they said it would only be a matter of time before he took over as QB.

Relative merits for who is a better pro-prospect now aside, I find that to be a dubious assertion. Can you think of any college QB's running on pace for nearly 5000 yds of passing 48 TD's and 9 INT's that have ever been benched? I am not even saying by this that VY would not have been a better QB at that point--just that the natural inclination of most coaches is (a) toward a pocket passer and (b) to ride the pony they are on unless it is kicking them off. Mack Brown's actions as you describe them in keeping an out played Mock starting and trying to fit him originally to a different O system support those points. Many a better QB has sat on the bench behind someone they are better than--recent examples Roethlisberger on the bench until Maddox injured, Brady on the bench until Bledsoe injured. Read this how it is intended, as a reality check, not as a knock on VY at all.

 

[thunderkyss]

this means: isnt enough with a QB pick 1 to win games (not to talk about SB). Carr cant do it, VY cant do it, any QB cant. Only Elway and Aikman (formers "qb 1") won a SB and only after they had a great sup cast(def, off, s.teams)

New england change their qb (Drew B) for another taken whit the #199 (Brady) and before this qb change, they build a "team" (solid defense, great specials teams, good OL-WR). they didnt start whit a new qb.

What point are you trying to argue??

I'm not saying Draft Vince, becuase he'll take us to the superbowl. I'm saying Draft Vince, because I want to build around Vince. David Carr was not the guy I wanted Houston to draft........ I've supported him through his first four years, I even have a Carr Jersey... But, I'd rather have Vince Young as the quarterback for this team, than David Carr.

& FYI, Brady was sacked 41 times in 2001, in 14 games
31 times in 2002, in 16 games
32 times in 2003, in 16 games
26 times in 2004, in 16 games
26 times in 2005, in 16 games
so it's not like they had a good O-Line, and just plugged Brady in there... I'm pretty sure, they had no idea he would take them to the SuperBowl that year, and I seriously doubt he was brought in to replace Bledsoe.

As another FYI..... in the two games Bledsoe played in 2001, he was sacked 5 times....... about 2.5 times per game. Brady got sacked 2.9 times per game, so it's not like the team all of a sudden got better....... he was just able to get better results with the same team that Drew couldn't.

and something I thought interesting....... they finished 5-11 in 2000.

they won the SuperBowl in 2001.

 

[expwrlifter]

infant,
to answer your question...lets see...

T. Chang (Haw) Wac
T. Rattay (LT) Wac
same conference as DC

D. Klinger (UH)
K. Klingsbury (TT)
B.J. Symmons (TT)-> think he had a tryout with the TEXANS
C. Redman
M. Applewhite
A. Smith
R. Leaf-> he was a winner projected better than Manning even think he had better stats then Manning... but I think he lacked what people called leadership qualities...They kept saying though he would turn it around because he had the skills for what it took ...

 

[infantrycak]

infant,

Pathetic buddy, really pathetic.

to answer your question...lets see...

Try going back and reading the question more slowly--you might even follow along with your finger while you sound it out--the question asked for guys who were BENCHED while on pace for a season as described.

Got that now?

 

[stevo3883]

If UT had more of a pure QB like David Carr there with Vince, they would have moved Vince over to WR earlier in his career there and we wouldn't even be talking about him as a QB right now.

infantrycat-

is this the question you're still referencing ?

he said if texas had a "pure qb like carr" as in pocket passer during vince's redshirt year, the horns wouldve moved vy to wr.

and i said they DID have a "pure qb", Chance Mock, during vys redshirt freshman year, and mock started the first 4 games and finished the season with 1300 yards 15 td's 2 ints. hardly "mediocre" as you put it.

and vince showed enough to be put in the starting lineup as a freshman- i dont know where you got the "2nd year" stuff from, this was his first eligible year.

so either I'm really confused or you're misreading mork's statement. i must be missing something here

 

[texarg]

What point are you trying to argue??

I'm not saying Draft Vince, becuase he'll take us to the superbowl. I'm saying Draft Vince, because I want to build around Vince. David Carr was not the guy I wanted Houston to draft........ I've supported him through his first four years, I even have a Carr Jersey... But, I'd rather have Vince Young as the quarterback for this team, than David Carr.

& FYI, Brady was sacked 41 times in 2001, in 14 games
31 times in 2002, in 16 games
32 times in 2003, in 16 games
26 times in 2004, in 16 games
26 times in 2005, in 16 games
so it's not like they had a good O-Line, and just plugged Brady in there... I'm pretty sure, they had no idea he would take them to the SuperBowl that year, and I seriously doubt he was brought in to replace Bledsoe.

As another FYI..... in the two games Bledsoe played in 2001, he was sacked 5 times....... about 2.5 times per game. Brady got sacked 2.9 times per game, so it's not like the team all of a sudden got better....... he was just able to get better results with the same team that Drew couldn't.

and something I thought interesting....... they finished 5-11 in 2000.

they won the SuperBowl in 2001.

Like i said: they didnt start whit a new qb....


"...Texans were one of only six teams last season to boast a 3,000-yard passer, 1,000-yard rusher and 1,000-yard receiver. But Houston also allowed 49 sacks in 2004 behind a revamped offensive line."

(http://www.houstontexans.com/news/news_detail.php?PRKey=1769)

"Carr was supposed to have endured the worst of the punishment at the hands of defensive linemen in his rookie season, when a patchwork line allowed a league-record 76 sacks. The O-line did make strides in 2003, allowing less than half as many sacks as it had the previous season. But personnel types around the AFC generally believed it to be a weak unit still in need of plenty of work."
(http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/AFC/AFC+South/Houston/Features/2004/wilkening111804.htm)

"...the Texans have surrendered a league-worst 55 sacks. Last year, they were 26th in the NFL with 49 sacks allowed. Houston already has a good young back in Dominick Davis, and a solid 26 year old quarterback David Carr, who'd be able to help the team even more if he wasn't on his back every other play. ." (" (http://blogs.foxsports.com/JordanSchwartz/2005/12/11/Texans_Dont_Need_Bush)


This are just three of many reports about the same...and makes your comp. Brady´s OL vs Carr´OL nonsense.

If you supported Carr without an OL for 4 years, then in 4 years your post will be : " VY was not the guy I wanted Houston to draft........ I've supported him through his first four years, I even have a VY Jersey... But bla bla bla"
becouse without a decent OL there is no QB who can play in the NFL.

And thats extacly my point. Build and OL whit Carr, he cant prove his value couse he hasnt the chance to do it...so trade down or draft Bush not a QB.

 

[infantrycak]

infantrycat-

is this the question you're still referencing ?

so either I'm really confused or you're misreading mork's statement. i must be missing something here

Your confused and I am referencing my question above in relation to expwrlifter's assertion that VY would have beat DC out of a starting job.

 

[bklatch]

Ok guys and gals again David Carr would have never started ahead of Vince at any level. David Carr is not 1/10 the athlete that Vince Young is and David Carr might have found himself as a WR had they ever been on the same team.

I was a college coach in another life and the difference in playing for a WAC team vs one of the major conferences is night and day. Very rarely does a player come out of one of the minor conferences and have success at QB in the NFL.

David has done a good job in kicking off the team, but he is not the answer and never will be. In saying that I don't mean he does not have talent. He does and deserves to be in the NFL. What I am saying is the VY has special talent and hopefully talent that take the Texans to another level.

 

[infantrycak]

I was a college coach in another life and the difference in playing for a WAC team vs one of the major conferences is night and day. Very rarely does a player come out of one of the minor conferences and have success at QB in the NFL.

Really? Maybe it is just you consider everything except the WAC a major conference.

Signed,
Ben Roethlisberger--MAC (Miami (OH))
Matt Hasselbeck--ACC (Boston College)
Mark Bulger--Big East (West Virginia)
Byron Leftwich--Conference USA (Marshall)
Jake Delhomme--Sun Belt (LA-Lafayette)
Kurt Warner--? (Northern Iowa)
Kelly Holcomb--Sun Belt (Middle TN State)
Donovan McNabb--Big East (Syracuse)
Steve McNair--? (Alcorn)
Brett Favre--Conference USA (Southern Miss)

 

[stevo3883]

Really? Maybe it is just you consider everything except the WAC a major conference.

Signed,
Ben Roethlisberger--MAC (Miami (OH))
Matt Hasselbeck--ACC (Boston College)
Mark Bulger--Big East (West Virginia)
Byron Leftwich--Conference USA (Marshall)
Jake Delhomme--Sun Belt (LA-Lafayette)
Kurt Warner--? (Northern Iowa)
Kelly Holcomb--Sun Belt (Middle TN State)
Donovan McNabb--Big East (Syracuse)
Steve McNair--? (Alcorn)
Brett Favre--Conference USA (Southern Miss)

the big east and the acc are bcs conferences. teams like miami, florida state, vatech...

 

[Maddict5]

and with that-all went quiet on the southern front

 

[expwrlifter]

Mad,
Do you think DC would start over VY if they were at the same college?

And to infantry didnt mean to type infant and mean it that way was trying to type fast.. WHy do you think DC will be the leader of this team? To me he kind of reminds me of Ryan Leaf..

 

[bklatch]

Really? Maybe it is just you consider everything except the WAC a major conference.

Signed,
Ben Roethlisberger--MAC (Miami (OH))
Matt Hasselbeck--ACC (Boston College)
Mark Bulger--Big East (West Virginia)
Byron Leftwich--Conference USA (Marshall)
Jake Delhomme--Sun Belt (LA-Lafayette)
Kurt Warner--? (Northern Iowa)
Kelly Holcomb--Sun Belt (Middle TN State)
Donovan McNabb--Big East (Syracuse)
Steve McNair--? (Alcorn)
Brett Favre--Conference USA (Southern Miss)

Well Mister smartry at least mine is an educated opinion rather than a reactionary comment. Ok let's look at the list above. 5 of them played in 2nd tier conferences and went to the Super Bowl. Of all the teams in the NFL that is a very low percentage considering that they all went there over many years. My argument stands that very few second tier conference guys actually excel in the NFL. David had his chance and is not the answer.

Why not cut our losses now and build a team around a winner and a leader? Teams follow leaders and we need one.

 

[bklatch]

Mad,
Do you think DC would start over VY if they were at the same college?

And to infantry didnt mean to type infant and mean it that way was trying to type fast.. WHy do you think DC will be the leader of this team? To me he kind of reminds me of Ryan Leaf..

Of course he would not have. I have never seen so many uneducated football fans in one place in my life. David carr would not have beaten out Major Applewhite. Big Boy football is hard!!

 

[expwrlifter]

bk
i agree with you in DC had his chance even though he didnt have the right tools around him if he was a great player like he was supposed to be then he could have gotten us somewhere ....

People still have answered this question in why dont we see this team as rebuilding and what is the difference in having DC and VY learn the same system at the same time... Even read somewhere today that the Texans are considering it..

 

[bklatch]

bk
i agree with you in DC had his chance even though he didnt have the right tools around him if he was a great player like he was supposed to be then he could have gotten us somewhere ....

People still have answered this question in why dont we see this team as rebuilding and what is the difference in having DC and VY learn the same system at the same time... Even read somewhere today that the Texans are considering it..

The answer is you are correct. Why not let VY learn the new system. He is someone who will work harder and make everyone around him better just as he has all his life. DC is all about DC. VY is all about the W's he is all about winning and will do what it takes to get there.

Can you guys imagine someone giving you the keys to the most incredible car you could ever imagine? The only problem is that if you take it, your every move will be watched. If you so much as scratch it you will be chastized for even thinking you could drive such a car.

That is what it is like to be a NFL QB especially in your home town. DC has wrecked the car. VY would win the race.

It is all about having "IT" and VY has "IT"

 

[infantrycak]

Well Mister smartry at least mine is an educated opinion rather than a reactionary comment.

Your missing an un--take a guess where it goes.

Ok let's look at the list above. 5 of them played in 2nd tier conferences and went to the Super Bowl. Of all the teams in the NFL that is a very low percentage considering that they all went there over many years. My argument stands that very few second tier conference guys actually excel in the NFL.

You do realize only 25 QB's ever have won SB's right? In just recent years they include Favre, Roethlisberger and Warner, heck lets throw in Dilfer since that is your definition of success (where'd he go to school--c'mon you can say it) with SB losers including Gannon, Delhomme, McNair (league MVP) and McNabb. Let's see in the past 10 SB's 4 QB's from lessor conferences have won and 3 have won from top tier conferences. Nope, still looks like you need the un.

This is a classic example of making something up to deride someone on behalf of a replacement. Fine VY is great and would be good with the Texans. There is no reason to make up silly stuff to run down DC--there are plenty of legitimate reasons to critique him.