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DC and VY from a coach point of view
- Thread starter expwrlifter
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swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
jerek said:
He is a young, healthy starter on the defensive line...i didnt say he was a superstar, but was trying to say that he is a piece that can stand as is and not need to be immediately addressed. Also, its a bit unfair to judge him on one nfl season...it took dewayne robertson 3 to become the DT he is right now....im not saying he is all world, but he isn't chopping block fodder (buchanon)
tulexan
Hall of Fame
swtbound07 said:
If we were getting consistently blown out last year then I would agree with you. But we lost several games by touchdown or less and that was with horrendous play calling and unmotivated players. And why is this a total rebuilding mode? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Panthers went to the Super Bowl two seasons after going 1-15 and the Chargers went from 4-12 to 12-4 in one season. With the parity of the NFL, going from last place to the playoffs in a season or two is not a ludicrous notion. You can have a great team become a bad team in one season and a bad team become a great team in one season. The Bears were a bad team for the last few years and they earned a first round bye in the playoffs this year. The Eagles were in the Super Bowl last year and finished last in their division this year. Things were bad this year, really bad, but with good coaching and a few good draft picks and free agent signings, who knows what this team could do. Could they go 4-12 next year? Sure. Could they go 12-4 next year? Sure. The Texans are a Peyton Manning injury away from being competitive in the AFC South next year. You never know what will happen every season. If you did, then you would be a very rich man. It would be like having tomorrow's Wall Street Journal.
Have you ever seen those NFL Network commercials where its set in the preseason and you have people saying stuff like "The Bears will be lucky to win 4 games this year" or "T.O. is a team player"? What makes those funny is that its so true. Every year most fans expect one thing and get something completely different. Eagles fans probably thought that they were a lock to get back to the Super Bowl, Bears fans probably thought that they would be looking at another top draft pick. Half of our fans believe that we will be a bad team next year and the other half believes that we will be a decent or good team. One will be right, one will be wrong. Just like every season.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
tulexan said:
Fair enough, but right now my glass is half empty. Im not saying we are doomed to be cellar dwellers for years, im simply saying that next year probably wont be much better than this. To me, all of the games we lost (save for st. louis), we truely were outplayed in. heck, we didnt even look good enough to win in san francisco. I hope im wrong and we go 12-4..... Im just saying, new coach, new regime, first overall pick, atrocious last season, myriad of holes to fill....the writing on the wall says rebuilding to me.
Big B Texan Fan
Veteran
I feel the sarcasm.kbourda said:Because it just makes more sense to start over then!
But for real. Here's our big chance to nab either VY (who I prefer) or Leinert. 2 guys who've proved it. The past 2 season they have a combined 2 losses and no injuries and Championships and Heiman Candidacy and trophies and a Brinks truck of other trophies and the uncanny knack to win for extended periods of time as well as the ability to get your teammates to follow them. Carr had that 1 "Sold his Soul to the Devil" type season and we keep handing him the keys.....Carr wreck after Carr wreck (sorry, I coudn't help myself).
There is even less of a guarantee that the guys Tulexan mentioned (I like he mentioned Periloux is a "better VY", hmmm, a little homestate love for his boy....huh.....that's what I thought Tulexan) will be 1/2 as decorated and 1/2 as non-injured as Leinert and VY.
travfrancis
Waterboy
i'm speechless.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
travfrancis said:
so thats what they mean by "shock and awe'
Big B Texan Fan
Veteran
No the true meaning will be newly defined if we draft Bush.swtbound07 said:
The "shock" is Bush breaking a great run and getting us into the red-zone. The "awe" is for "aw shucks" when Carr then takes us out of field-goal range with 3 straight sacks.
S
SESupergenius
Guest
A team can go back to 7-9 from a 2-14 season just as easily as a 7-9 team can go 2-14. Capers had this team rise up in wins every years except for last year, there is not pattern there. The only pattern that was obvious was that we didn't bring in talent from Free Agency or the Draft to get us to the next level and wasted picks actually set us back.kbourda said:
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
SESupergenius said:
Agreed, but I would also say that development of current players has been following a flatline as well.
tulexan
Hall of Fame
travfrancis said:
Why are you so speechless? Perrilloux was just as highly recruited as Vince Young was. He is as fast or faster, has a stronger arm, is more accurate, and is only a few inches shorter than him.
And I'm not giving love to "my hometown boy" because I could care less about LSU. If I was giving love to "my hometown boy" I would be talking about Lester Ricard.
TreWardTxn
Waterboy
big homey said:
D'Brick is a great takcle prospect, but two years ago scouts hailed Robert Gallery as the next coming of Lincoln Kennedy, and he very well might be, but he has not shown it yet. And even though I can't give you a name, I'm very certain there will be a great OL prospect in the top 5 within the next 2-3 years of the draft (hopefully we won't need him by then). Admittedly, this is a clash of football philosophies as much as anything. I do think the men upfront are the most important assest to any team, but I also believe a large part of O-line success is cohesiveness and familiarity; once Kubiak gets the guys at the positions they need to be, the O-line will have a chance to gel. It also seems to me that in this system, the center and guard positions are most important, as they do the bulk of the work to create room for the running game. The way we protect Carr (or any QB) is by using run-action against the D to freeze onrushing DEs and LBs. Plus, my argument wasn't just for taking Young, I said I think the Texans need to take one of these "generational" talents because we are not going to make the playoffs next year, we will challenge hopefully. I think to place any further expectations on Kubiak and his young staff and players is pretty unfair. Jim Mora did go to an NFC championship his first year, but he has a guy who, when healthy, is the most dynamic single threat in football. I think this is the Texan's chance to get a player that brings that type of dimension to this team. It comes as no surprise to me that Vick was hurt and Atlanta was horrible, he comes back and they make the playoffs, this year, he wasn't as good, and they missed the playoffs against improved competition.
But yeah, I think Young is more that guy than Bush...
TreWardTxn
Waterboy
tulexan said:
Ok, I haven't seen this guy's game yet, but he is not the combination of size, speed, and strength (on paper) that Young offers, and none of those other QBs are even capable of having the complete skill set that Young does. The closest thing might be Omar Jacobs and he has all the question marks Young does (throwing motion, throwing off balance) and the knock that he hasn't played against very talented defenses. I would throw Brad Smith in there, but he is going to a receiver in the NFL. So, although there are guys at the QB position who scouts are going to tell us how great they are, none of them have the innate ability, skills, and potential that Young does...
tulexan
Hall of Fame
I realize that all of those QB's are different from Vince, but the point of the post was that each of the next four years, we are going to be hearing about the next great QB who has the potential to be the greatest of all time (in the eyes of the media). And Quinn and Brohm are going to be seasoned QBs with experience in a pro-style offense. If Clausen goes to USC, which I think he will because he is from SoCal, he will be another great QB with experience in a pro-style QB.
It's not like its Vince or no good QB ever again. If Carr still struggles (I don't think he will), then we will have a few years to pick our next franchise QB because there will be a plethora of great QB's available in the coming years.
It's not like its Vince or no good QB ever again. If Carr still struggles (I don't think he will), then we will have a few years to pick our next franchise QB because there will be a plethora of great QB's available in the coming years.
TreWardTxn
Waterboy
tulexan said:
Ok, the Texans lost 6 games by 7 points or less last year, one to basement mate San Fran. If we somehow manage to win all those games, we're back at 8 and 8 respectability, but in the loaded AFC that means no playoffs. Don't see any of the AFC playoffs teams getting worse this year, or teams in our division for that matter. The Texans were not injury plauged last year, we didn't have the year like the Charger's did when they lost 8 games by 4 points or less. Whatever the case, the Texans are more than one year away, and I don't think it's right to hold Kubiak and the new staff to that standard yet.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
tulexan said:
How many years do you give him to struggle? Also....Are you hoping we will be high enough in a future draft to select a brady quinn?
Then there are some of us who think while the QB isn't a need, an upgrade would sure be welcomed.big homey said:
Something smells fishy........ we address this problem year, after year. Maybe... just maybe we are working on the wrong end of the problem.big homey said:
big homey said:
Just like David Carr. We have to let Kubiak do his job, and let him determine just how bad our need at Oline is. Does he have the people now, to work in his system. If he thinks we need to pass on the #1 overall, and trade down, so be it..... If he thinks it is a good idea to have a good plan B in place....
So be it.
tulexan said:
He more than likely won't struggle next year. He'd have to be quite dumb not to understand that he has to put on his best show in 2006. 2007 though... he'll more than likely flop around in the backfield again.
I personally would rather have a guy I trained myself, ready to go in that situation, than to just throw away the rest of that year, and hope to draft someone, or get someone in FA......
and while Brady Quinn will be coming out next year, and there might be someone as dynamic, as Vince, what would we have to give then, to get him??
TreWardTxn
Waterboy
stevo3883 said:
Yeah, can you believe that somebody actually posted that this guy was the next, great thing coming? I don't care how big, fast, strong, or accurate he is; only a first class lame would ask a coach to guarantee his starting position over Vince Young. I thought sports were about competition. So he decides to go to LSU because he thinks he'll slab Russell, and oh, surprise, he ends up sitting on the bench. He might want to consider injuring himself in some not-too-serious way so he can take an extra medical redshirt year, then maybe he'll get some PT...
TreWardTxn
Waterboy
tulexan said:
And I'm telling you that by then, we will look at what we coulda had, and we will cry...
Straight up, any of those guys could be great (who knows), what I'm saying is that they don't bring the skills and abilities to the table that Young does; talents, determination, football instinct. Sure those guys will all have their own package, but none of them will be this intriguing.
Oh yeah, any out there who believe Young is trash and don't think he has any talent viable at the next level, then you were not the intended audience for this post. Only people who have pondered the thought that he could be good...
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
swtbound07 said:
Travis Johnson was thrown out of practice/weight room on more than one occasion this year for half-assing it. If Capers and Co. threw a guy out of practice, how bad do you suppose he really is? Don't ask for my source because you won't get it, but my guy was there, he saw it, he calls it like it is, and no, he is not making up the story just so I can get on an anonymous message board and shoot down this particular opinion of yours.
Bottom line TJ was a lazy, hot-headed, me-first joke of a player at FSU and he is exactly that same player here in Houston, and whoever it was that plugged him for our draft should be fired for it (not saying it was Cass, since I don't know exactly where that call came from.) I hated the pick then, I hate it now that it has proven to be pretty much thoroughly predictable in terms of success or lack thereof, and I especially hate that Derrick Johnson rang up a modest 90+ tackles linebacking for KC while we are certain to capitalize on that big third rounder this year (sarcasm intended.) And take note, all of you Young bandwaggoners, I said it: I wanted Derrick Johnson last year, all the way. A UT guy. Sorry, I guess I'm not a closet Aggie after all.
Not saying TJ is beyond salvage - well, actually, I pretty much am - but he is hardly a piece of the solution to anything.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
jerek said:
Putting aside any source issues, that doesn't speak well of the former coaching staff's motivation skills IMO. So let's see, you are unhappy with someone only putting half-effort in so the response is take some time off? Guess those guys are the anti-drill sergeants. If his effort is in doubt, a better response would be more Parcell like and involve extra work, not less.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
infantrycak said:
Absolutely agreed, but I think it was no secret that Capers and Co. were lacking in the motivational departments. I can't say that throwing him out was the wrong move - every player is different, sometimes tailoring discipline can be a good thing - but I suspect it had little or no impact.
TJ's attitude and moreso their response to it was just one more symptom of an ugly disease. Mind you that is only one small chapter of the story - I have no idea how they did or did not deal with him throughout the course of the season - but my point was that Travis Johnson allegedly had a history of attitude problems in Florida St, and if we decided we were going to draft him in spite of that, there should have been a solid plan in place. Better yet, we should have passed on him and picked up one of the best linebacking prospects in recent years, being that we run a 3-4 around the likes of Kailee Wong (good guy, smart player, but athletically nothing special) and Morlon Greenwood (overpaid, period.)
bigTEXan8
Rookie
Big B Texan Fan said:
No...Pat Hill has been doing this for a while. He usually sits his QBs till they are juniors, redshirting them the year before. He likes to have them see the game from the sidelines before they get onto the field. He did it with Volek, Carr. Planned on doing it with Pinegar, but that didn't quite work out. I think he's doing it that with Brandstater this year.
TreWardTxn
Waterboy
jerek said:
The one thing that Capers gets credit for around the league is being a big motivational guy. I'm pretty sure that's one reason McNair brought him in as the inaugural coach, because he knew he would be working with a lot of young guys (and he started the Carolina franchise, albeit with veterans). Obviously, all motivation went out the window by week 3 2005, but during the 7-9 season, he was able to rally the troops a bit. Capers may not be a great coach, but you can't bring in a defensive minded guy and then not give him the tools to get the job done; honestly, Matt Stevens and Eric Brown were playing at one time I believe (I've tried to do my best to forget). And then when Capers actually had veteran leadership on the defense, we ship those guys off. Either way, what I'm saying is, we either had a coach who couldn't get effort (his rep doesn't support this), players who won't give effort (even worse, 'cause we're stuck with some), or both. Now, as far as offense is concerned, the staff was pretty much inept, which was kind of expected the first two years as an expansion team...
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
TreWardTxn said:
Yup, and despite being unfit for the NFL except as scrubs (let's also not forget couch sitter Jay Foreman) the unit was the 16th ranked D. Somehow last year the coaches managed to take their chosen upgrades to a 31st ranked D. JMO but the single greatest failure on D has already left the building--Fangio, with Capers in 2nd only because he let Fangio in the door and left him in control.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
TreWardTxn said:
You may be right about the motivational aspect: there are other facets of coaching to blame besides being able to light a fire under the guys. Fangio's D was horrific from the word go. I would have killed to have Romeo Crennel running our defense.
In either case, Travis came with a serious set of "ifs" that our then staff either managed to stumble through obliviously, or has otherwise avoided dealing with.
TreWardTxn
Waterboy
jerek said:
There's no possible way to argue against that. I didn't even think the guy was that great at FSU, especially to be a top 20 pick? I hope the franchise doesn't continue with this propensity towards "do-over" drafts...
BMT Texan
Practice Squad
I think Carr "IS" a good qb,and Chris Palmer is mostly to blame for the weak offence with the weak ***** plays he called. However I feel Vince would be the better qb for us, that is unless we can trade down for D'brick or Mario to get more picks in this years draft aswell as a high pick next year with 
Adriean Peterson looming.
But back to my main point, Carr in Miami would be a good place for him start over, I think David can be a soild player ,it's just his upside is not as high as Vince's
Adriean Peterson looming.But back to my main point, Carr in Miami would be a good place for him start over, I think David can be a soild player ,it's just his upside is not as high as Vince's
Napa Auto Parts
Veteran
BMT Texan said:I think Carr "IS" a good qb,and Chris Palmer is mostly to blame for the weak offence with the weak ***** plays he called. However I feel Vince would be the better qb for us, that is unless we can trade down for D'brick or Mario to get more picks in this years draft aswell as a high pick next year with
But back to my main point, Carr in Miami would be a good place for him start over, I think David can be a soild player ,it's just his upside is not as high as Vince's
i dounbt miami would want any piece of Carr miami could go after Drew Brees a real QB or josh mccown with out a doubt a better qb that carr at this time.
BMT Texan
Practice Squad
Although Brees will get alot of propective buyers he's coming off an injury, like Culpepper. David is young and healthy an if not in Miami there would be plenty of interest in him in other places like Oakland or any of many teams with poor qbs.......and he's better than Mccown...
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