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DC and VY from a coach point of view

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stevo3883 said:
the big east and the acc are bcs conferences. teams like miami, florida state, vatech...
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So BCS conference membership is the definition of a major conference. Glad we got that cleared up so now we know both DC and VY played in major conferences (WAC is a BCS conference by the way).
 
infantrycak said:
Your missing an un--take a guess where it goes.



You do realize only 25 QB's ever have won SB's right? In just recent years they include Favre, Roethlisberger and Warner, heck lets throw in Dilfer since that is your definition of success (where'd he go to school--c'mon you can say it) with SB losers including Gannon, Delhomme, McNair (league MVP) and McNabb. Let's see in the past 10 SB's 4 QB's from lessor conferences have won and 3 have won from top tier conferences. Nope, still looks like you need the un.
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That is a great diatribe. Based on all the QB's that have excelled in the league a very low percentage have come from tier 2 conferences. DC has not been a winner at this level and he won't be a winner at this level. It sucks but it is true. The Texans made a mistake. Let it go man and you will sleep better.

Did you ever play the game or are you a book worm full of stats and other usless information?
 
infantrycak said:
So BCS conference membership is the definition of a major conference. Glad we got that cleared up so now we know both DC and VY played in major conferences (WAC is a BCS conference by the way).
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lol no it isnt
 
infantrycak said:
So BCS conference membership is the definition of a major conference. Glad we got that cleared up so now we know both DC and VY played in major conferences (WAC is a BCS conference by the way).
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The WAC is a tier 2 conference! I never said anything about the BSC.
 
A bcs conference is a conf in which a team is guranteed a BCS bowl by being named the champ of that conference.

Rose- big 10 vs pac-10
fiesta- big XII
orange- ACC
sugar- SEC
Big-East champ counts as an at-large
 
bklatch said:
Based on all the QB's that have excelled in the league a very low percentage have come from tier 2 conferences.
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We either are going to need you to qualify this or provide some data to support these statements. I will be on your side all day long about Carr, but give us something to base these claims.
 
stevo3883 said:
A bcs conference is a conf in which a team is guranteed a BCS bowl by being named the champ of that conference.

Rose- big 10 vs pac-10
fiesta- big XII
orange- ACC
sugar- SEC
Big-East champ counts as an at-large
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What about Notre Dame?
 
stevo3883 said:
A bcs conference is a conf in which a team is guranteed a BCS bowl by being named the champ of that conference.

Rose- big 10 vs pac-10
fiesta- big XII
orange- ACC
sugar- SEC
Big-East champ counts as an at-large
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Funny, the people at the BCS think it is. Maybe you can find an e-mail to correct them here: BCS I understand the definition you are running off of though. Realistically, even the BCS conferences as you define them are not all equal so it really doesn't identify what qualifies as a major or minor conference.
 
infantrycak said:
Funny, the people at the BCS think it is. Maybe you can find an e-mail to correct them here: BCS
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"The BCS, which runs through the 2005 regular season and 2006 bowl season, consists of the Rose Bowl, Nokia Sugar Bowl, FedEx Orange Bowl and the Tostitos Fiesta Bowl. Conferences with automatic berths include the Atlantic Coast, Big East, Big Ten, Big 12, Pac-10 and the Southeastern Conferences."

http://espn.go.com/abcsports/bcs/about/
 
infantrycak said:
Funny, the people at the BCS think it is. Maybe you can find an e-mail to correct them here: BCS
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Wow man, you got that bogus web site up fast! It almost looks official! Will you stop at nothing to prove your point? :highfive:
 
infantrycak said:
Funny, the people at the BCS think it is. Maybe you can find an e-mail to correct them here: BCS
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that is the only website you will find that says the WAC is a bcs conference. that site also says the sun belt and MAC are bcs conferences as well.

im sorry but they arent a part of the "bowl championship series" their conf winner is not guranteed a bowl game
 
Kaiser Toro said:
bklatch said:
Based on all the QB's that have excelled in the league a very low percentage have come from tier 2 conferences. QUOTE]

We either are going to need you to qualify this or provide some data to support these statements. I will be on your side all day long about Carr, but give us something to base these claims.
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It is very simple. Of all the QB's that have played in the NFL a very low percentage has come from the tier 2 conferences. If you read my posts, my point was that DC came from a tier 2 conference. He had his chance and now it is time to move on.
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Kaiser Toro said:
Not in football, but yes in basketball.

BCS, Notre Dame retool deal Irish will be treated more like any other school

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/sports/articles/0428bcsirish0428.html
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its kind of screwy because notre dame gets put first in line for the 4 "at-large" births.if they meet their criteria (i think its ranked in the top 10 or something like that) they automatically make a bcs bowl.

what can i say, they really like notre dame
 
bklatch said:
It is very simple. Of all the QB's that have played in the NFL a very low percentage has come from the tier 2 conferences. If you read my posts, my point was that DC came from a tier 2 conference. He had his chance and now it is time to move on.
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I understand that you believe that. How did you come to that conclusion?

Once again I agree that DC should have been moved, but I am stuck with what we got.
 
Runner said:
Wow man, you got that bogus web site up fast! It almost looks official! Will you stop at nothing to prove your point? :highfive:
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its not bogus but its deceiving. Those conferences receive a portion of the money collected by the whole BCS system, but they arent a part of the bowl championship series.
 
stevo3883 said:
that is the only website you will find that says the WAC is a bcs conference. that site also says the sun belt and MAC are bcs conferences as well.

im sorry but they arent a part of the "bowl championship series" their conf winner is not guranteed a bowl game
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stevo--I think we are hung up on a nomenclature thing. The conferences you are talking about have automatic bowl spots and are commonly referred to as the BCS conferences, but there are other conferences which are BCS conferences as stated on their website. It really doesn't matter anyway--the issue is picking some arbitrary 1st tier and 2nd tier criteria for the other discussion.
 
stevo3883 said:
its kind of screwy because notre dame gets put first in line for the 4 "at-large" births.if they meet their criteria (i think its ranked in the top 10 or something like that) they automatically make a bcs bowl.

what can i say, they really like notre dame
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Let me end this nonesense with this. VY beat Michigan, OU, Ohio State at night in the shoe and USC in the Rose Bowl. DC beat Wyoming! Wow who would you rather have leading your team? Vince beat the best Carr did not even beat the rest.

Big Boy Football takes leaders VY is a leader.
 
stevo3883 said:
its not bogus but its deceiving. Those conferences receive a portion of the money collected by the whole BCS system, but they arent a part of the bowl championship series.
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I didn't look this up, but I think if a team from one of these conferences qualifies with a good enough record, etc, then they could play in a BCS Bowl game. I think people are thinking that a conference having an automatic berth is the sole definition of a BCS conference.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
I understand that you believe that. How did you come to that conclusion?

Once again I agree that DC should have been moved, but I am stuck with what we got.
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look it up if i am wrong I will say i am, but i don't think i will have to..
 
bklatch--to make myself clear, I am not arguing with your opinion or conclusion on DC as to what the Texans should do. IMO your assertion about non-major conferences not yielding successful NFL QB's is however in error. Saying that doesn't make DC any better a QB--they are or should be two separate subjects. In other words I disagree with your general rule. If you specifically don't like one non-major QB, DC, that's fine.
 
Runner said:
I didn't look this up, but I think if a team from one of these conferences qualifies with a good enough record, etc, then they could play in a BCS Bowl game. I think people are thinking that a conference having an automatic berth is the sole definition of a BCS conference.
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its based on ranking, thats how Utah managed to make it in. and Utah is the only non-bcs team to make a bcs game.
 
texarg said:
Like i said: they didnt start whit a new qb....


"...Texans were one of only six teams last season to boast a 3,000-yard passer, 1,000-yard rusher and 1,000-yard receiver. But Houston also allowed 49 sacks in 2004 behind a revamped offensive line."

Last year, they were 26th in the NFL with 49 sacks allowed. Houston already has a good young back in Dominick Davis, and a solid 26 year old quarterback David Carr, who'd be able to help the team even more if he wasn't on his back every other play. ."


This are just three of many reports about the same...and makes your comp. Brady´s OL vs Carr´OL nonsense.


And thats extacly my point. Build and OL whit Carr, he cant prove his value couse he hasnt the chance to do it...so trade down or draft Bush not a QB.
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Are you reading this stuff as you type?? Houston 26th in the league, giving up 49 sacks doesn't compare to New England who gave up 46 sacks(Bledsoe 5, Brady 41) the year they won the super bowl??


You can't see the comparison there??
 
Did anyone read the article Richard Justice wrote today? It said that he is hearing they might draft VY over RB..

DO you honestly think the FO will turn on the fans...knowing this city wants a change... heck look at Steve Franchise.. he was supposed to be the next superstar and he needed a change.. Thats what I think DC needs a change..

One thing about the article I noticed though is that they say they will keep DC and get his trade value up which makes sense.. and let him groom VY..It may even turn up the heat on DC.. he needs something because he has gotten too comfortable..
 
I know chances are slimmer than slim, that Houston will draft Vince....

But having him here @ the same time as Carr, doesn't mean Carr will be Grooming him. Carr can't groom anyone at this point. That's part of the problem. He has nothing to teach anyone.

Kubiak & Sherman will be doing the Grooming.
 
Vinny said:
Elway won two Super Bowls in his last years because the team was good enough by then. On the way to those titles he took them to the Super Bowl in his 4th, 5th and 7th seasons....mostly on his back.

They tried to from what I can see. They drafted Drew Bledsoe first overall. He never lived up to his pick and when Brady took over it was all over for Drew in NE.
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Man, people forget so quickly...Bledose did go to a Superbowl, he did have a few double digit win seasons as a QB before he was wrecked and replaced by Brady. He had certainly lost a lot of his luster by then and was never able to reguide his team deep into the playoffs, but the point is that once that other guy came off the bench, for whatever reason the line somehow managed to block "better", the running backs averaged more yards, receivers caught more passes, and the defense was able to squeeze teams once they got the lead. That had nothing to do with coaching, it was having the right guy leading the system that gained the trust and confidence of his teammates by being able to engineer positive plays. At the end of the day, that is what offensive football is about, moving the ball; I don't care if it's from a pocket, or not, as long as the job gets done...
 
TreWardTxn said:
Man, people forget so quickly...Bledose did go to a Superbowl, he did have a few double digit win seasons as a QB before he was wrecked and replaced by Brady. He had certainly lost a lot of his luster by then and was never able to reguide his team deep into the playoffs, but the point is that once that other guy came off the bench, for whatever reason the line somehow managed to block "better", the running backs averaged more yards, receivers caught more passes, and the defense was able to squeeze teams once they got the lead. That had nothing to do with coaching, it was having the right guy leading the system that gained the trust and confidence of his teammates by being able to engineer positive plays. At the end of the day, that is what offensive football is about, moving the ball; I don't care if it's from a pocket, or not, as long as the job gets done...
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Now that is a quality post in an awful thread. You are the thread slayer, bringing light when there was none. :superman:
 
CarrIsFine said:
I would rather not harp on college stats, but since you don't care to do any research, here are two interesting games from Carr's senior year against the 13th and 14th rated pass defenses in the country:

Oregon State: 340 yds, 4 TD, 0 INT

Michigan State: 531 yds, 4 TD, 2 INT

870 YDS & 8 TDs against 2 top 15 passing defenses? Doesn't seem to agree with your theory.
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I didn't say anything about him not playing against top 20 defenses, remember the conversation was never about stats; I said he didn't play against any bonafide NFL talent, and if you can find the guys on either of those teams that gets any PT in the League, I'd like you to post them up for me...
 
TreWardTxn said:
Man, people forget so quickly...Bledose did go to a Superbowl, he did have a few double digit win seasons as a QB before he was wrecked and replaced by Brady. He had certainly lost a lot of his luster by then and was never able to reguide his team deep into the playoffs, but the point is that once that other guy came off the bench, for whatever reason the line somehow managed to block "better", the running backs averaged more yards, receivers caught more passes, and the defense was able to squeeze teams once they got the lead. That had nothing to do with coaching, it was having the right guy leading the system that gained the trust and confidence of his teammates by being able to engineer positive plays. At the end of the day, that is what offensive football is about, moving the ball; I don't care if it's from a pocket, or not, as long as the job gets done...
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Also, Bledsoe was sitting pretty, waiting to retire in New England. Tom Brady wasn't brought in to replace Drew, he got his shot when Drew got hurt. If drew never got hurt, we'd never know who Tom Brady was.
 
stevo3883 said:
its based on ranking, thats how Utah managed to make it in. and Utah is the only non-bcs team to make a bcs game.
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Utah was who I was thinking of - but if they are non-BCS, how were they allowed in the bowl?

I really don't care that much - it was just an interesting debate that caught my eye.
 
thunderkyss said:
Also, Bledsoe was sitting pretty, waiting to retire in New England. Tom Brady wasn't brought in to replace Drew, he got his shot when Drew got hurt. If drew never got hurt, we'd never know who Tom Brady was.
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On another note with Brady and Bledsoe. The same O-line that sent Bledsoe to the ER with bleeding in his lungs (giving up sax) as well as got the Pats to a 1-4 start was the same O-line that sent Brady, Pats to the Super Bowl in the same season.
 
infantrycak said:
Really? Maybe it is just you consider everything except the WAC a major conference.

Signed,
Ben Roethlisberger--MAC (Miami (OH))
Matt Hasselbeck--ACC (Boston College)
Mark Bulger--Big East (West Virginia)
Byron Leftwich--Conference USA (Marshall)
Jake Delhomme--Sun Belt (LA-Lafayette)
Kurt Warner--? (Northern Iowa)
Kelly Holcomb--Sun Belt (Middle TN State)
Donovan McNabb--Big East (Syracuse)
Steve McNair--? (Alcorn)
Brett Favre--Conference USA (Southern Miss)
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You know what? Let's take your list, and I'll even concede the point that small conference guys can have success, in fact, you left Chad Pennington out of there, he was a good QB before his shoulder was shredded...But the one thing that is almost for certain on that list is that, by those guys 4th years in the league they had been pegged as absolute team leaders, Ben and Leftwich are the only ones who haven't been in the league that long, but we have already seen the IT from both of them, Leftwich showed it all the way from college, displaying that kind of heart does matter. Every guy on that list was/is pegged as a leader; Delhomme was handpicked by John Fox because he saw his fire and passion for winning at NO, even though he was a backup. Holcomb replaced Tim Couch (former top pick) in Cleveland, and the general feeling was that he had won the locker room before ever winning the starting spot. I think Bulger just got the nod over Warner because he was younger, uninjured and Martz's pet project, but Favre, McNabb, and Big Ben? Even if they didn't have great stats, they were all undisputed leaders of their teams early in their careers, and it is simply disturbing that after four years in the league, I can not say that (no one can) about Carr; it is the missing element of his game that there is no coaching or acquisitional remedy for...
 
Bulger doesn't have it....... Kurt lost it, but Bulger ain't got it..... he ain't going nowhere with that team.




Mark my word.
 
TreWardTxn said:
You know what? Let's take your list, and I'll even concede the point that small conference guys can have success, in fact, you left Chad Pennington out of there, he was a good QB before his shoulder was shredded...But the one thing that is almost for certain on that list is that, by those guys 4th years in the league they had been pegged as absolute team leaders, Ben and Leftwich are the only ones who haven't been in the league that long, but we have already seen the IT from both of them, Leftwich showed it all the way from college, displaying that kind of heart does matter. Every guy on that list was/is pegged as a leader; Delhomme was handpicked by John Fox because he saw his fire and passion for winning at NO, even though he was a backup. Holcomb replaced Tim Couch (former top pick) in Cleveland, and the general feeling was that he had won the locker room before ever winning the starting spot. I think Bulger just got the nod over Warner because he was younger, uninjured and Martz's pet project, but Favre, McNabb, and Big Ben? Even if they didn't have great stats, they were all undisputed leaders of their teams early in their careers, and it is simply disturbing that after four years in the league, I can not say that (no one can) about Carr; it is the missing element of his game that there is no coaching or acquisitional remedy for...
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Well put:ok:
 
Big B Texan Fan said:
On another note with Brady and Bledsoe. The same O-line that sent Bledsoe to the ER with bleeding in his lungs (giving up sax) as well as got the Pats to a 1-4 start was the same O-line that sent Brady, Pats to the Super Bowl in the same season.
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In the O-line's defense, it was Bledose who decided he didn't want to slide and took the sideline hit from Mo Lewis, line had nothing to do with it. If Bledsoe had any kind of moves whatsoever, he could have shifted and took a glancing blow, rather than getting hammered dead-on like he did. That play was a prime example of a player forcing the action and not playing within his abilities...
 
thunderkyss said:
Bulger doesn't have it....... Kurt lost it, but Bulger ain't got it..... he ain't going nowhere with that team.




Mark my word.
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I don't think he will either and that Kurt will be back in the playoffs first with Anquan and Fitz...
 
TreWardTxn said:
You know what? Let's take your list, and I'll even concede the point that small conference guys can have success, in fact, you left Chad Pennington out of there, he was a good QB before his shoulder was shredded...
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Thanks for pointing out Pennington. I also forgot Daunte Culpepper from the Atlantic Sun Conference. This above is the only part responsive to anything I was saying. There is no validity to the asserted proposition that non-major conferences don't develop successful NFL QB's. By my count, that is at least 13 QB's who were set to be starters for their teams at the beginning of last season. Almost seems like guys who have never played big boy football are taking over the place.
 
infantrycak said:
Thanks for pointing out Pennington. I also forgot Daunte Culpepper from the Atlantic Sun Conference. This above is the only part responsive to anything I was saying. There is no validity to the asserted proposition that non-major conferences don't develop successful NFL QB's. By my count, that is at least 13 QB's who were set to be starters for their teams at the beginning of last season. Almost seems like guys who have never played big boy football are taking over the place.
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The assertion was another thinly veiled vote for "grab Vince, Carr blows," and much like all of the bullspit about Carr being GQ and a preacher and the joke of the lockerroom, it was pulled out of the poster's ***.

With all of the "haters" on this board (with people in support of Carr "hating" Young by proximity and vice versa), it is a wonder people can discuss a player's game based on real observations of football.
 
jerek said:
The assertion was another thinly veiled vote for "grab Vince, Carr blows," and much like all of the bullspit about Carr being GQ and a preacher and the joke of the lockerroom, it was pulled out of the poster's ***.

With all of the "haters" on this board (with people in support of Carr "hating" Young by proximity and vice versa), it is a wonder people can discuss a player's game based on real observations of football.
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What kind of action you want on which QB will win a playoff game first?
 
TreWardTxn said:
What kind of action you want on which QB will win a playoff game first?
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That is a bet I'll take. I have no reason to take a sucker bet like the one offered above. But I will bet a $100.00 on Vince reaching the playoffs before Carr does.
 
bklatch said:
That is a bet I'll take. I have no reason to take a sucker bet like the one offered above. But I will bet a $100.00 on Vince reaching the playoffs before Carr does.
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VY could get drafted by a playoff ready team, sit the bench for 2 years, and reach the playoffs without touching the field. I think a more fair bet would be which QB will lead his team to the playoffs.
 
TexanBacker93 said:
VY could get drafted by a playoff ready team, sit the bench for 2 years, and reach the playoffs without touching the field. I think a more fair bet would be which QB will lead his team to the playoffs.
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Even giving Carr a 2 year headstart, doesn't make this any more fair.
 
expwrlifter said:
Mad,
Do you think DC would start over VY if they were at the same college?
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in all fairness how can i answer that reasonably- is it based on DC now or when he was in college- also it depends on what kind of system a college uses. if its was a pro style offence (not many options etc.), i think carr would've had a better than 50/50 shot @ being the starting qb but theres so many 'ifs' in the question. also Houston texans arent a college team with a starter and trying to recruit a HS qb- this is the pro's. things are different. VY may have had a better college history but that doesnt mean he'll be a superstar qb in the nfl.

Now heres my question for you-with the jets possibly becoming interested in the #1 pick-and that indirectly affecting teams like the dolphins(maybe)- what do you think is the reasonable amount of picks necessary for us to trade with (lets say) the jets
 
Maddict5 said:
in all fairness how can i answer that reasonably- is it based on DC now or when he was in college- also it depends on what kind of system a college uses. if its was a pro style offence (not many options etc.), i think carr would've had a better than 50/50 shot @ being the starting qb but theres so many 'ifs' in the question. also Houston texans arent a college team with a starter and trying to recruit a HS qb- this is the pro's. things are different. VY may have had a better college history but that doesnt mean he'll be a superstar qb in the nfl.

Now heres my question for you-with the jets possibly becoming interested in the #1 pick-and that indirectly affecting teams like the dolphins(maybe)- what do you think is the reasonable amount of picks necessary for us to trade with (lets say) the jets
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MAD,

It does not matter what system they played in. Vy would beat DC in any system. Face it DC is not good.
 
TexanBacker93 said:
VY could get drafted by a playoff ready team, sit the bench for 2 years, and reach the playoffs without touching the field. I think a more fair bet would be which QB will lead his team to the playoffs.
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Ok then let's change the bet. Since I think you misunderstood what BK was betting on. I will bet you $200.00 that DC will never lead a team to the playoffs and VY will. This pains me to say this, because GK is a friend of mine and if DC ends up being his choice for the QB here, he won't be very successful.
 
Maddict5 said:
in all fairness how can i answer that reasonably- is it based on DC now or when he was in college- also it depends on what kind of system a college uses. if its was a pro style offence (not many options etc.), i think carr would've had a better than 50/50 shot @ being the starting qb but theres so many 'ifs' in the question. also Houston texans arent a college team with a starter and trying to recruit a HS qb- this is the pro's. things are different. VY may have had a better college history but that doesnt mean he'll be a superstar qb in the nfl.

Now heres my question for you-with the jets possibly becoming interested in the #1 pick-and that indirectly affecting teams like the dolphins(maybe)- what do you think is the reasonable amount of picks necessary for us to trade with (lets say) the jets
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What is this insanity? Vince Young was one of the top players recruited in 2002, and a top QB. Carr wouldn't have started over Reggie McNeal if they were at the same school. Carr was highly recruited though, and decided to go to...Fresno State? Talk about scared to compete and taking on new challenges...If any Carr supporters don't want to hear that, then I suggest they give up this notion that Young is "scared" to throw at the combine and afraid of competition...
 
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