Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍

DC and VY from a coach point of view

Status
Not open for further replies.
TreWardTxn said:
What is this insanity? Vince Young was one of the top players recruited in 2002, and a top QB. Carr wouldn't have started over Reggie McNeal if they were at the same school. Carr was highly recruited though, and decided to go to...Fresno State? Talk about scared to compete and taking on new challenges...If any Carr supporters don't want to hear that, then I suggest they give up this notion that Young is "scared" to throw at the combine and afraid of competition...
Click to expand...

Carr went to FS because he had been a fan since he was a kid. It had been a dream of his since he started playing football, since it was the closest Div I college to Bakersfield. "Scared to compete and take on new challenges" = "I have Vince-goggles on." VY doesn't want to throw in the combine because of his low release point in comparison to most QBs in the NFL. Maybe he can't get the same zip on the ball from where he throws it now...I don't know. The thing was, Carr had to change his basic throwing motion to have that higher release point, and it's just my thinking that maybe VY can't adjust. Of course, Alex Smith wowed everyone at the combine last year throwing the ball, and look how well that turned out.
 
Riley said:
Ok then let's change the bet. Since I think you misunderstood what BK was betting on. I will bet you $200.00 that DC will never lead a team to the playoffs and VY will. This pains me to say this, because GK is a friend of mine and if DC ends up being his choice for the QB here, he won't be very successful.
Click to expand...


Wouldn't that mean the Kuiak didn't do his job also?

and that would be 1) getting the Texans to the playoffs and 2) Reprogram Carr mind on how to think in the pocket

let me add a 3rd on there... get an OL that can pass block (or scheme)

one thing with Capers he is perfect on his system ruining young QB's (Collings and Carr)
 
I think David Carr is going to wind up remembering Capers as the worst thing that ever happended to him (in football, I mean).
 
bigTEXan8 said:
Carr went to FS because he had been a fan since he was a kid. It had been a dream of his since he started playing football, since it was the closest Div I college to Bakersfield. "Scared to compete and take on new challenges" = "I have Vince-goggles on." VY doesn't want to throw in the combine because of his low release point in comparison to most QBs in the NFL. Maybe he can't get the same zip on the ball from where he throws it now...I don't know. The thing was, Carr had to change his basic throwing motion to have that higher release point, and it's just my thinking that maybe VY can't adjust. Of course, Alex Smith wowed everyone at the combine last year throwing the ball, and look how well that turned out.
Click to expand...

Thank you for pointing out exactly what I was getting at, which is the QB part of the combine is worthless. Scouts already know he has a low release point, anad unless they plan to put an 8 1/2ft. fence in front of him, studying the film of actual games against D-linemen would be more beneficial than seeing him at the combine. Nobody gets to throw against air in the NFL like at the combine, and to argue that Vince is "scared" to do so, is just as ridiculous to say that DC was scared to go to a powerhouse 1A college. However, some people on this board have expressed frustration with the fact that Carr has never had to truly compete for the Texans job, and it is simply interesting to note, that he didn't have to do that at the collegiate level either...
 
TreWardTxn said:
Thank you for pointing out exactly what I was getting at, which is the QB part of the combine is worthless. Scouts already know he has a low release point, anad unless they plan to put an 8 1/2ft. fence in front of him, studying the film of actual games against D-linemen would be more beneficial than seeing him at the combine. Nobody gets to throw against air in the NFL like at the combine, and to argue that Vince is "scared" to do so, is just as ridiculous to say that DC was scared to go to a powerhouse 1A college. However, some people on this board have expressed frustration with the fact that Carr has never had to truly compete for the Texans job, and it is simply interesting to note, that he didn't have to do that at the collegiate level either...
Click to expand...

not sure about that.. if I am not mistaken Carr struggled and got reshirted for a season then after that he came back and played well... (from what I remember and someone can correct me if I am wrong on that)

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/texans/2002-08-01-texans-carr_x.htm
 
Mad,
Depends on what we are giving up and what are we getting in return. If you have a chance to get some OL and still stay in the top 3 picks.. then I would probably do it.
 
no players just picks- i think we should definitely stay in the top 3/4 whatever happens- once we have a shot at either d'brick and mario i would take the trade down with 2nd and 3rds-and a future 1/2 rounder.

i think the chad pennington/steve mc nair situation is helping us as the jets may look to trade up now, which might make the titans make a move aswell. anyway il stop speculating and just see what happens.
 
the decision to go play for fresno state was the fact that david wasnt as highly recruited as some people would like to think we all know that he did have a few offers but he was not in any mean of the word a cant miss prospect that why he played for fresno state. it's just sad to me when your not even the best QB to come out fresno state. and i know this is going to hurt some people "Homers" and ill get some negative rating for this i dont care it s the truth.
 
TreWardTxn said:
Thank you for pointing out exactly what I was getting at, which is the QB part of the combine is worthless. Scouts already know he has a low release point, anad unless they plan to put an 8 1/2ft. fence in front of him, studying the film of actual games against D-linemen would be more beneficial than seeing him at the combine. Nobody gets to throw against air in the NFL like at the combine, and to argue that Vince is "scared" to do so, is just as ridiculous to say that DC was scared to go to a powerhouse 1A college. However, some people on this board have expressed frustration with the fact that Carr has never had to truly compete for the Texans job, and it is simply interesting to note, that he didn't have to do that at the collegiate level either...
Click to expand...

As bad as Banks and Ragone are, they are little better or worse than most NFL backup QBs. People assume - for whatever reason, probably because it is convenient to assume when you are trying to further an agenda - that Carr has "never had to compete." The reason he has started on this team since Day 1 is because he is hands down the best QB on the squad, and demonstrates that day in and day out in practice.

Most teams do not have two clear starting caliber QBs (ala the Carr/Young works because Brees/Rivers has worked argument, looking only at the W column and ignoring the other far-reaching consequences of the deal), primarily for reasons of cost. Most NFL starting QBs are not under the constant "threat" of being benched.

I understand that Carr has not yet performed to expectations (mine either, really, for that matter), but it is reaching to say that he has "never had to compete for his job."

TreWardTxn said:
What kind of action you want on which QB will win a playoff game first?
Click to expand...

I will not make that bet until I see what team Vince goes to. There is a hell of a lot more to winning games than filling one position on the field. Of course, that is conveniently ignored by many posters on this MB who suppose Vince single-handedly won the Rose Bowl and every other game he has played in for that matter. To many, you could have put ten cardboard boxes out there on the field with him and he still would have inspired them to victory. Great players do make everyone around them better, but this is football, and I am not going to bet against Vince just to have him step onto some team waiting in the wings for that last piece or two while the Texans spend the first half of this year gelling under Kubiak.

Long story short, not until I see who drafts him. Talk about a "sucker" bet. Yeesh.
 
jerek said:
As bad as Banks and Ragone are, they are little better or worse than most NFL backup QBs. People assume - for whatever reason, probably because it is convenient to assume when you are trying to further an agenda - that Carr has "never had to compete." The reason he has started on this team since Day 1 is because he is hands down the best QB on the squad, and demonstrates that day in and day out in practice.

Most teams do not have two clear starting caliber QBs (ala the Carr/Young works because Brees/Rivers has worked argument, looking only at the W column and ignoring the other far-reaching consequences of the deal), primarily for reasons of cost. Most NFL starting QBs are not under the constant "threat" of being benched.

I understand that Carr has not yet performed to expectations (mine either, really, for that matter), but it is reaching to say that he has "never had to compete for his job."



I will not make that bet until I see what team Vince goes to. There is a hell of a lot more to winning games than filling one position on the field. Of course, that is conveniently ignored by many posters on this MB who suppose Vince single-handedly won the Rose Bowl and every other game he has played in for that matter. To many, you could have put ten cardboard boxes out there on the field with him and he still would have inspired them to victory. Great players do make everyone around them better, but this is football, and I am not going to bet against Vince just to have him step onto some team waiting in the wings for that last piece or two while the Texans spend the first half of this year gelling under Kubiak.

Long story short, not until I see who drafts him. Talk about a "sucker" bet. Yeesh.
Click to expand...
Jerek-

Am I the only one who you have a bet with?
 
Is it me or did I read right that VY was apart of the NBA All-star events. I dont mean he participated in them but was involved with them. I also read that he went out and braved the cold this weekend to work on his throwing skills. EVen the QB coach he has been in the league 30+ years said he wouldnt change anything about VY. Said he was a great athlete and something special... Intresting that comes from another coach....:ok:

Even read this morning that people are hearing from inside sources that DC may have some trade value left in him... What I dont understand is why are people on this board afraid to draft VY? Can we honestly say we are one player away from being good.... to me "NO" and im sure some will agree and disagree. But I dont honestly think RB will be able to endure the 15 + carries people expect him too. He wont be able to run to the outside. Too much speed in NFL around the corner and people play alot of Cover 2 so corners are waiting for you.. ITs a rebuilding year... let VY learn and compete with DC to make DC earn his job... because it was given to him whether you believe that or not... he was... They will be both learning the same system at the same time... let them compete for it... and it will shut all of us up.. dont you agree...:redtowel:
 
And let me reiterate for the cameras, I think Vince will be a fine NFL QB. I think that Carr is the better QB right now, but give Vince a year or two and hopefully good coaching and a good supporting cast, and I think the guy will do really well in this league. If he improves his arm and works on his game there is nothing saying he can't or won't become a better QB than Carr some day. And finally, if Banks was our starting QB, I would love to draft Vince: I would be all about it.

But we have Carr, we have other, far more pressing holes to fill, and my stance is that the Texans team - at this point in time and all things considered, including salary cap implications and our roster as it stands - should not draft Young. We are not "one player away," but we are not necessarily "rebuilding" either, and you don't fix what isn't broke. There are too many other pieces to the puzzle we can fill in, rather than drafting a $55M somewhat-project QB over Carr, who is at least functionally decent and might well be great in a new system. You only get one offseason every year, and you can only cover so much ground, and we would be maximizing our offseason this year in keeping the "veteran" Carr and drafting/signing intelligently outside of the QB position.

My :twocents:
 
jerek said:
As bad as Banks and Ragone are, they are little better or worse than most NFL backup QBs. People assume - for whatever reason, probably because it is convenient to assume when you are trying to further an agenda - that Carr has "never had to compete." The reason he has started on this team since Day 1 is because he is hands down the best QB on the squad, and demonstrates that day in and day out in practice.

Most teams do not have two clear starting caliber QBs (ala the Carr/Young works because Brees/Rivers has worked argument, looking only at the W column and ignoring the other far-reaching consequences of the deal), primarily for reasons of cost. Most NFL starting QBs are not under the constant "threat" of being benched.

I understand that Carr has not yet performed to expectations (mine either, really, for that matter), but it is reaching to say that he has "never had to compete for his job."

BTW...that other bet is a joke, the players have no control over who drafts them...


I will not make that bet until I see what team Vince goes to. There is a hell of a lot more to winning games than filling one position on the field. Of course, that is conveniently ignored by many posters on this MB who suppose Vince single-handedly won the Rose Bowl and every other game he has played in for that matter. To many, you could have put ten cardboard boxes out there on the field with him and he still would have inspired them to victory. Great players do make everyone around them better, but this is football, and I am not going to bet against Vince just to have him step onto some team waiting in the wings for that last piece or two while the Texans spend the first half of this year gelling under Kubiak.

Long story short, not until I see who drafts him. Talk about a "sucker" bet. Yeesh.
Click to expand...

When this franchise started the Texans brought in Kent Graham and Mike Quinn to "compete" for the starting job. Ever since that opening day win, Carr has been living off of his potential. Even though we have seen flashes from Tony Banks, the Texans org. has decided to sink or swim with Carr, and understandably so, due to the monetary investment and his potential. As far as the bet goes, the action was on who would win a playoff game first, a team's defense can get them to the playoffs, but once there, the QB has to make plays. We know he's going to a crap team, NO or TN are both lookin at QBs and are not preseason playoff contenders. In today's NFL of free agency, you can turn a loser into a playoff contender in 2-3 years, and I would bet 95% of posters wholly expect the Texans to be in the playoffs by 2008 (a lot by '07). So the bet basically translates into, '2-3 years from now, will an incoming rookie QB be further along and more accomplished in his career than a present day 5th year player'? Now that you better understand me, what you think?

BTW...that other bet is a joke, the players have no control over who drafts them...
 
jerek said:
And let me reiterate for the cameras, I think Vince will be a fine NFL QB. I think that Carr is the better QB right now, but give Vince a year or two and hopefully good coaching and a good supporting cast, and I think the guy will do really well in this league. If he improves his arm and works on his game there is nothing saying he can't or won't become a better QB than Carr some day. And finally, if Banks was our starting QB, I would love to draft Vince: I would be all about it.

But we have Carr, we have other, far more pressing holes to fill, and my stance is that the Texans team - at this point in time and all things considered, including salary cap implications and our roster as it stands - should not draft Young. We are not "one player away," but we are not necessarily "rebuilding" either, and you don't fix what isn't broke. There are too many other pieces to the puzzle we can fill in, rather than drafting a $55M somewhat-project QB over Carr, who is at least functionally decent and might well be great in a new system. You only get one offseason every year, and you can only cover so much ground, and we would be maximizing our offseason this year in keeping the "veteran" Carr and drafting/signing intelligently outside of the QB position.

My :twocents:
Click to expand...
This type of quote is one of the exact reasons I come to this board everyday. So that I can find a reason to not draft Vince. Your reasoning just makes sense overall. Truthfully if Vince didn't come from UT and Houston I doubt many of us would be wanting him. Also, this serves all the people right who wanted us to lose so we could get the first pick and draft Reggie.
 
LOL at jerek and bigTEX, if yall are so confident why don't yall atleast give some odds? come on now, yall arent being as bold as you think you are.

This type of quote is one of the exact reasons I come to this board everyday. So that I can find a reason to not draft Vince.
Click to expand...

you come to the board everyday to convince yourself that we shouldn't draft vince? don't really know what to think of that, but seems a little bit weird.
 
TreWardTxn said:
I didn't say anything about him not playing against top 20 defenses, remember the conversation was never about stats; I said he didn't play against any bonafide NFL talent, and if you can find the guys on either of those teams that gets any PT in the League, I'd like you to post them up for me...
Click to expand...

You mean other than:

Chad Johnson WR Bengals
TJ Houshmanzadeh WR Bengals
Nick Barnett LB Green Bay
Steven Jackson RB St. Louis
TJ Duckett RB Atlanta
Charles Rogers WR Detroit
Dwan Edwards DT Baltimore
Delawrence Grant LB Oakland
Dennis Weathersby CB (would have been an NFL player but for being shot)

Not sure all of them were there for the games DC played in but those teams do field NFL talent. Really, does it matter if any of the players went on to the NFL if the unit as a whole played well together? Doesn't it prove more to perform well against a top 20 D with no names than to do well against an 80-100 D with 2 guys who get drafted on the 1st day? I'll take the former.
 
travfrancis said:
LOL at jerek and bigTEX, if yall are so confident why don't yall atleast give some odds? come on now, yall arent being as bold as you think you are.



you come to the board everyday to convince yourself that we shouldn't draft vince? don't really know what to think of that, but seems a little bit weird.
Click to expand...

Then why don't you take the bet?

And to TreWard, of course players don't choose where they are drafted. The bet was started a few weeks back when everyone and their mother was shrieking for joy because they were so convinced that the Texans would draft Young, no way, no how, couldn't possibly, not-even-if-you-put-a-gun-to-their-head would they ever pass on him (i.e. Big B).

You want action? Okay, same 50 I will be taking off Big B and any one else stupid enough to take my original bet, I will put on DC winning a playoff game before Vince does. Sound good?
 
jerek said:
You want action? Okay, same 50 I will be taking off Big B and any one else stupid enough to take my original bet, I will put on DC winning a playoff game before Vince does. Sound good?
Click to expand...

Better qualify that he has to be the starting QB. If he goes to TN he could be on a winning play-off team watching Steve McNair from the sidelines 2-3 years down the road.
 
infantrycak said:
Better qualify that he has to be the starting QB. If he goes to TN he could be on a winning play-off team watching Steve McNair from the sidelines 2-3 years down the road.
Click to expand...

Good point and that is what I meant to infer. Guy must start throughout the majority (12+ games?) of the regular season and in the playoff game.

Though as an aside, I have to believe McNair is on his way out of the NFL. You think he's got enough juice left in him to make it that far?
 
jerek said:
Though as an aside, I have to believe McNair is on his way out of the NFL. You think he's got enough juice left in him to make it that far?
Click to expand...

He just turned 33. He had a young/injured surrounding cast last year. If he has faith in the direction of the team and likes Chow, I'd bet is he is going to sign a contract and try to make one more run at the playoffs with an eye toward playing 2-3 more years. I just don't see him signing on to a 4-12 team with the intention of sticking around just one more year.
 
bigTEXan8 said:
2. Niether did VY this year...he played in the overrated Big 12...OOOHHH.
Click to expand...

oh come on! anytime u beat a team that didnt lose a game in 2 seasons (winner of a share of a nat. title and another the next yr.) prior to the nat. champ game and beat an excellent ohio state team in columbus, then u dont deserve to be a victim of this comment. sorry. the big 12 was overrated, but to use that against young is plain stupid. young wins on the biggest stages. what more can u ask of him? look at his winning precentage as a starter...
 
TexanFanInCC said:
oh come on! anytime u beat a team that didnt lose a game in 2 seasons (winner of a share of a nat. title and another the next yr.) prior to the nat. champ game and beat an excellent ohio state team in columbus, then u dont deserve to be a victim of this comment. sorry. the big 12 was overrated, but to use that against young is plain stupid. young wins on the biggest stages. what more can u ask of him? look at his winning precentage as a starter...
Click to expand...

Jeez...how long ago did I write that. Look, it is my opinion that the Big12 was overrated this year. VY never beat a solid, put together team. Don't get me wrong, "Thee" Ohio St. was a good team, and USC had a great offense. But, for the most part, I wasn't impressed by what VY did against the rest of the competition he played against this year. Beating teams like Baylor, TT, and Colorado (x2) isn't impressive.
 
bigTEXan8 said:
Jeez...how long ago did I write that. Look, it is my opinion that the Big12 was overrated this year. VY never beat a solid, put together team. Don't get me wrong, "Thee" Ohio St. was a good team, and USC had a great offense. But, for the most part, I wasn't impressed by what VY did against the rest of the competition he played against this year. Beating teams like Baylor, TT, and Colorado (x2) isn't impressive.
Click to expand...


Those teams aren't as bad as you think. It's not like VY played against WAC teams.

VY never beat a solid, put together team????:confused:

Well, why don't you enlighten us with some examples of "solid, put together" college teams. If Ohio St. & USC aren't solid, who is?
 
Rewsky said:
Those teams aren't as bad as you think. It's not like VY played against WAC teams.

VY never beat a solid, put together team????:confused:

Well, why don't you enlighten us with some examples of "solid, put together" college teams. If Ohio St. & USC aren't solid, who is?
Click to expand...

Try and read the entire post. Here...I'll bold out the part where I say that USC and Ohio St are solid teams, except I use the word good.

Jeez...how long ago did I write that. Look, it is my opinion that the Big12 was overrated this year. VY never beat a solid, put together team. Don't get me wrong, "Thee" Ohio St. was a good team, and USC had a great offense. But, for the most part, I wasn't impressed by what VY did against the rest of the competition he played against this year. Beating teams like Baylor, TT, and Colorado (x2) isn't impressive.
Click to expand...
 
bigTEXan8 said:
Try and read the entire post. Here...I'll bold out the part where I say that USC and Ohio St are solid teams, except I use the word good.
Click to expand...


So in one sentence you say VY hasn't beaten a solid team, and in the very next sentence you say he has (Ohio St. & USC). :ok: Why even post the first sentence when it contradicts the 2nd.


I agree that the Big 12 was down this year. However, to act like the other teams in the Big 12 are chopped liver is foolish, IMO. Typically all the major conferences are relatively equal. I think it just cycles every year as to which conference is the strongest.:twocents:
 
Rewsky said:
So in one sentence you say VY hasn't beaten a solid team, and in the very next sentence you say he has (Ohio St. & USC). :ok: Why even post the first sentence when it contradicts the 2nd.


I agree that the Big 12 was down this year. However, to act like the other teams in the Big 12 are chopped liver is foolish, IMO. Typically all the major conferences are relatively equal. I think it just cycles every year as to which conference is the strongest.:twocents:
Click to expand...

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt with Ohio St. & USC. I've never once said that VY sucks, I just don't think he's the savior everybody is making him out to be.
 
infantrycak said:
You mean other than:

Chad Johnson WR Bengals
TJ Houshmanzadeh WR Bengals
Nick Barnett LB Green Bay
Steven Jackson RB St. Louis
TJ Duckett RB Atlanta
Charles Rogers WR Detroit
Dwan Edwards DT Baltimore
Delawrence Grant LB Oakland
Dennis Weathersby CB (would have been an NFL player but for being shot)

Not sure all of them were there for the games DC played in but those teams do field NFL talent. Really, does it matter if any of the players went on to the NFL if the unit as a whole played well together? Doesn't it prove more to perform well against a top 20 D with no names than to do well against an 80-100 D with 2 guys who get drafted on the 1st day? I'll take the former.
Click to expand...

That would make sense and be true if it weren't for the fact that college defenses with 1st day NFL talent are invariably better. Having NFL quality players on your college defense makes it better, and in fact, the more NFL ready players, the better. Second of all, I standy by what I said in that Young played against more NFL quality players in one game than Carr did his entire college career (BTW...that's means defense only, he didn't have to beat Chad Johnson in coverage). The only guy he played against in college who plays in the league today is Nick Barnett (Grant too early, Edwards too late), and it does matter, because it deals with the speed of the game, which he has certainly struggled to adjust to. Against the 2004 OU team alone, Young played against Dan Cody, Antonio Perkins and Brodney Poole. So like I said, I don't care about stats, give me the guy who battled against superior talent, who likewise, had better stats. Just to hammer this home, judging a defense by yards is misleading, as teams who are behind need to throw a lot to catch up, who cares if they pick up a 15 yd gain if they have to make up 4 scores?
 
jerek said:
And let me reiterate for the cameras, I think Vince will be a fine NFL QB. I think that Carr is the better QB right now, but give Vince a year or two and hopefully good coaching and a good supporting cast, and I think the guy will do really well in this league. If he improves his arm and works on his game there is nothing saying he can't or won't become a better QB than Carr some day. And finally, if Banks was our starting QB, I would love to draft Vince: I would be all about it.

But we have Carr, we have other, far more pressing holes to fill, and my stance is that the Texans team - at this point in time and all things considered, including salary cap implications and our roster as it stands - should not draft Young. We are not "one player away," but we are not necessarily "rebuilding" either, and you don't fix what isn't broke. There are too many other pieces to the puzzle we can fill in, rather than drafting a $55M somewhat-project QB over Carr, who is at least functionally decent and might well be great in a new system. You only get one offseason every year, and you can only cover so much ground, and we would be maximizing our offseason this year in keeping the "veteran" Carr and drafting/signing intelligently outside of the QB position.

My :twocents:
Click to expand...

OK, people are applauding this as being the practical, sensible approach to this entire situation, when the fact of the matter is, resigning Carr is as much a dice roll as anything else. After 4 years in the league the only irrefutable compliments anyone can pay him (about his performance on field) is that, he has elite arm strength, has endured a lot of sacks without completely blowing his top, and that he is fairly mobile by NFL standards. After 4 years, he is playing on the same potential that got him drafted #1. People want this thing to be plain and simple, they want Carr to pull a Ryan Leaf or go ballistic after every sack before it is decided the franchise needs a change. Well, that won't happen, Carr is not Akili Smith (might be a more mellow Jeff George though) and will always be able to play in this league, because he looks too good throwing the ball in practice. Just because a guy is not a complete washout doesn't mean he isn't a bust. Your post says "we have Carr", like that translates into "proven NFL starter", well it doesn't, and for the Texans or anyone else to believe that it does, is just misguided...
 
TreWardTxn said:
That would make sense and be true if it weren't for the fact that college defenses with 1st day NFL talent are invariably better.
Click to expand...

That would be a nice theory and all if it wasn't demonstrably wrong. Both those teams were in the top 20 on D at the time Fresno played them. There were plenty of teams who had NFL talent on them at the same time and were lower ranked--thus invariably is wrong. Psst--Darnell Bing is NFL talent and his D was bad--just a recent example.
 
TreWardTxn said:
OK, people are applauding this as being the practical, sensible approach to this entire situation, when the fact of the matter is, resigning Carr is as much a dice roll as anything else. After 4 years in the league the only irrefutable compliments anyone can pay him (about his performance on field) is that, he has elite arm strength, has endured a lot of sacks without completely blowing his top, and that he is fairly mobile by NFL standards. After 4 years, he is playing on the same potential that got him drafted #1. People want this thing to be plain and simple, they want Carr to pull a Ryan Leaf or go ballistic after every sack before it is decided the franchise needs a change. Well, that won't happen, Carr is not Akili Smith (might be a more mellow Jeff George though) and will always be able to play in this league, because he looks too good throwing the ball in practice. Just because a guy is not a complete washout doesn't mean he isn't a bust. Your post says "we have Carr", like that translates into "proven NFL starter", well it doesn't, and for the Texans or anyone else to believe that it does, is just misguided...
Click to expand...

Well put. It is the Forrest Gump Box of Chocolate's view of our QB position--you never know what you are gonna get.

I hope the best for Carr, I hope that the experts are right, I hope that if we go with him, that the fan base will give him some time to learn the new system, I hope more tools and protection will do the trick, I hope year 5 shows us the goods, and I hope he has success.

But all that hope doesn't translate to complete confidence that this is gonna work. I can't wrap my mind around what our next year is gonna look like--vast improvement or horrible abomination or somewheres in the middle. Were the training wheels the coachs had on them last year holding them back, or were they necessary because the team woulda looked even worse? It is easier to think of it as entirely a coaching thing because coaches are easier to replace. At this point, I will stop thinking on paper, as I am unnerving myself.

Just wait and see.
 
TreWardTxn said:
OK, people are applauding this as being the practical, sensible approach to this entire situation, when the fact of the matter is, resigning Carr is as much a dice roll as anything else. After 4 years in the league the only irrefutable compliments anyone can pay him (about his performance on field) is that, he has elite arm strength, has endured a lot of sacks without completely blowing his top, and that he is fairly mobile by NFL standards. After 4 years, he is playing on the same potential that got him drafted #1. People want this thing to be plain and simple, they want Carr to pull a Ryan Leaf or go ballistic after every sack before it is decided the franchise needs a change. Well, that won't happen, Carr is not Akili Smith (might be a more mellow Jeff George though) and will always be able to play in this league, because he looks too good throwing the ball in practice. Just because a guy is not a complete washout doesn't mean he isn't a bust. Your post says "we have Carr", like that translates into "proven NFL starter", well it doesn't, and for the Texans or anyone else to believe that it does, is just misguided...
Click to expand...

Yes and no. You are still ignoring the driving point: virtually anybody you ask will admit that Carr is decent. Whether or not they think he will be good, great, or what have you, and whether or not they think Vince will be better, Carr has been and will always continue to be at least decent.

We are rolling the dice on Vince being better than Carr on this Texans franchise. It is a coin flip at best: all but the most diehard UT homer will acknowledge this as well. Vince has tremendous upside, but if it had been Vince fresh out of college vs DC fresh out of college these past four years, he would have suffered similarly. We may have picked up a few extra wins, even, if you think Vince would have been done better, but you are lying to yourself if you propose we would have been substantially better (> 2 wins per season, and that is pretty generous.) Our defense was habitually blown out of games, we have no established #2 receiving threat, our line is the perennial joke of the leage (and yes, Carr is responsible for some of those sacks, but the O-line is far and away the worst in the NFL) and our very good but injury riddled RB has yet to play a full season.

So now we have by far the most valuable draft real estate in this short franchise's history. More valuable than our expansion draft, because we have four years of personnel and at least some idea of how they will perform at the professional level, albeit skewed at least somewhat by our bumbling ex coaches.

Do we spend this valuable pick on what will be at best a moderate upgrade to the QB position - a player that comes with his own set of whens and ifs - or do we bite the bullet, do the unfashionable, and trade down, cover some serious ground on one or more of the other twenty-one positions on the field? Again, Carr has been at least decent. He may, I say will, but even at that, let's just say he may get better, but he has been decent. Plenty of decent QBs have won Super Bowls, and plenty of great QBs have not. Do we even know that Vince will be great?

It comes down to what will be the most valuable to the team, again, all things considered. My take: trade that pick = most value.
 
infantrycak said:
That would be a nice theory and all if it wasn't demonstrably wrong. Both those teams were in the top 20 on D at the time Fresno played them. There were plenty of teams who had NFL talent on them at the same time and were lower ranked--thus invariably is wrong. Psst--Darnell Bing is NFL talent and his D was bad--just a recent example.
Click to expand...

First of all, if we are talking about the 2001 football season, which was Carr's senior year (correct?) then OSU was the first team they played, so yeah, they were top 20 cause they hadn't played anyone yet. The other team (Michigan State) had 5 losses during the 2001 season. Are you truly trying to argue that they were a formidable college defense with 5 losses on the season? I don't care what their ranking was (which couldn't have been top 20) but if they had 5 losses, they weren't that good.
Stats, especially mid-season stats mean nothing. USC was a far superior defense, even with all its shortcomings, than that Oregon State D or MSU D. This is what trips me out, the same people that try to down Young for what he did on the field statistically, will turn around and pull out some meaningless stat like this in order to try (quite ineffectually) to prove a point. I stand by my statement, which is incoming college players are better off for having played against NFL and top flight quality opposition in college, than for having played against a "top 20" defense during week four of a season. How is it possible to rationalize against this?
 
jerek said:
Yes and no. You are still ignoring the driving point: virtually anybody you ask will admit that Carr is decent. Whether or not they think he will be good, great, or what have you, and whether or not they think Vince will be better, Carr has been and will always continue to be at least decent.

We are rolling the dice on Vince being better than Carr on this Texans franchise. It is a coin flip at best: all but the most diehard UT homer will acknowledge this as well. Vince has tremendous upside, but if it had been Vince fresh out of college vs DC fresh out of college these past four years, he would have suffered similarly. We may have picked up a few extra wins, even, if you think Vince would have been done better, but you are lying to yourself if you propose we would have been substantially better (> 2 wins per season, and that is pretty generous.) Our defense was habitually blown out of games, we have no established #2 receiving threat, our line is the perennial joke of the leage (and yes, Carr is responsible for some of those sacks, but the O-line is far and away the worst in the NFL) and our very good but injury riddled RB has yet to play a full season.
Click to expand...

Though I am not one of them, I am sure that there are a number of people on the MB and otherwise, that think DC is not "at least decent" but rather affirmatively bad.

As Carr took most of the snaps last season, we really do not know how much of it was him, and how much of it was everyone else.

How do you know we wouldn't have an established #2 receiving threat?

How do you know whether our Oline would look better with a different QB back there?

The hypothetical you set up is something we could never know. I do not know what sort of QB Carr is, so comparing him to a hypothetical VY in the NFL starting for a baby expansion team is even more muddled. Obviously, taking the reins of an expansion team as a rookie can't be easy for anyone, but I still don't have a sense of how much of this is on Carr and how much of this is on everyone else. And whether just this last four year experience has ruint him some.

There are too many variables, and that is what makes evaluating Carr extry difficult.

But as I said, I am hoping he is a good one. :texflag:
 
jerek said:
Yes and no. You are still ignoring the driving point: virtually anybody you ask will admit that Carr is decent. Whether or not they think he will be good, great, or what have you, and whether or not they think Vince will be better, Carr has been and will always continue to be at least decent.

We are rolling the dice on Vince being better than Carr on this Texans franchise. It is a coin flip at best: all but the most diehard UT homer will acknowledge this as well. Vince has tremendous upside, but if it had been Vince fresh out of college vs DC fresh out of college these past four years, he would have suffered similarly. We may have picked up a few extra wins, even, if you think Vince would have been done better, but you are lying to yourself if you propose we would have been substantially better (> 2 wins per season, and that is pretty generous.) Our defense was habitually blown out of games, we have no established #2 receiving threat, our line is the perennial joke of the leage (and yes, Carr is responsible for some of those sacks, but the O-line is far and away the worst in the NFL) and our very good but injury riddled RB has yet to play a full season.

So now we have by far the most valuable draft real estate in this short franchise's history. More valuable than our expansion draft, because we have four years of personnel and at least some idea of how they will perform at the professional level, albeit skewed at least somewhat by our bumbling ex coaches.

Do we spend this valuable pick on what will be at best a moderate upgrade to the QB position - a player that comes with his own set of whens and ifs - or do we bite the bullet, do the unfashionable, and trade down, cover some serious ground on one or more of the other twenty-one positions on the field? Again, Carr has been at least decent. He may, I say will, but even at that, let's just say he may get better, but he has been decent. Plenty of decent QBs have won Super Bowls, and plenty of great QBs have not. Do we even know that Vince will be great?

It comes down to what will be the most valuable to the team, again, all things considered. My take: trade that pick = most value.
Click to expand...

I understood that point quite well, especially when I mentioned the part about him always being able to find a team because he will look too good in practice, some guys are meant to hold a clip board (NOT saying Carr is that guy) and other guys are meant to be on the field. No analysts will badmouth Carr because he's young, healthy, and has great arm strength. I haven't heard any of these guys say it's time for Harrington to be canned yet, they think he should be brought back into their new scheme under new OC Martz. Anyone in the NFL will tell you, in the way of talent, across the board, there is little difference, meaning only a couple of standout talents at every position. There isn't a QB in the league that can't make the throws, or they wouldn't have a job. That alone makes them "decent".

I agree with you, that the least risky move the Texans can make is to trade down and accumulate picks (that means an extra 1 and 2, not just a swap and one 2), but are any of the guys on the board the most intriguing/talented prospect at their position in the last 10, 15, 25+ years? In one or two years we will be raving about another player just like them. No. This is as cliche as it gets, but you do not pass on potential this great (Bush or Young), especially when you are in the process of building a winning team, meaning, no chance of playoffs next year. To me, it is simply unwise to committ so greatly to an NFL "veteran" who we have little idea as to what kind of success he will have, and then shun the chance to take one of the most promising QB prospects ever.

You're right, I don't know what kind of success VY would have had if he came out in 2002, and became a Texan (he probably would have won two extra games a year on his running ability alone), but I'm pretty resolute in the belief that only a small fraction of fans would point the finger at the QB as to what was wrong...
 
TreWardTxn said:
I understood that point quite well, especially when I mentioned the part about him always being able to find a team because he will look too good in practice, some guys are meant to hold a clip board (NOT saying Carr is that guy) and other guys are meant to be on the field. No analysts will badmouth Carr because he's young, healthy, and has great arm strength. I haven't heard any of these guys say it's time for Harrington to be canned yet, they think he should be brought back into their new scheme under new OC Martz. Anyone in the NFL will tell you, in the way of talent, across the board, there is little difference, meaning only a couple of standout talents at every position. There isn't a QB in the league that can't make the throws, or they wouldn't have a job. That alone makes them "decent".

I agree with you, that the least risky move the Texans can make is to trade down and accumulate picks (that means an extra 1 and 2, not just a swap and one 2), but are any of the guys on the board the most intriguing/talented prospect at their position in the last 10, 15, 25+ years? In one or two years we will be raving about another player just like them. No. This is as cliche as it gets, but you do not pass on potential this great (Bush or Young), especially when you are in the process of building a winning team, meaning, no chance of playoffs next year. To me, it is simply unwise to committ so greatly to an NFL "veteran" who we have little idea as to what kind of success he will have, and then shun the chance to take one of the most promising QB prospects ever.

You're right, I don't know what kind of success VY would have had if he came out in 2002, and became a Texan (he probably would have won two extra games a year on his running ability alone), but I'm pretty resolute in the belief that only a small fraction of fans would point the finger at the QB as to what was wrong...
Click to expand...
So your rationale for drafting VY is that the team is in full rebuilding mode. That makes sense if you belive that, but I, as well as most other trade down/D'Brick guys, belive that the team isn't all that far from success.

We are going through a major transition, with a new coaching regime and new schemes and philosophies on both sides of the ball, but from a talent standpoint the team underachieved this past season. Just in '04 the team went 7-9, and most of us were shouting playoffs in '05. Capers & Co. tried to implement a system to reduce the sacks on offense, and for a while it worked (well actually, just the Bengals game), but it quickly proved an ineffective system, and coupled with Caper's/Pendry's conservative philosophies, the offense had trouble functioning. Worst of all, Carr's sack numbers went UP from '04.

Capers then ejected Sharper and Glenn in favor of younger, faster, more athletic guys. It sounded great at the time, and Sharper and Glenn were in the down of their careers, but the new guys (Buchanon & Greenwood) disappointed. Greenwood wasn't big or physical enough for the 3-4, and P-Buch couldn't handle the complex zone scheme and the lack of safety support from Coleman.

Kubiak is good at tailoring his scheme to his talent (tosses for Terrell Davis, cut running for Portis, play-action and bootlegs for Plummer) and is capable of bringing out the best on the offense, and his assistants on D will likely do the same. With upgrades at several postions, we could explode this coming season.

Oh and, D'Brick is being talked about as a rare type of talent, one who wasn't available last year or next year. We have an opportunity to address one of our actual needs with an elite prospect, rather than succumbing to flash and fluff.
 
Next year you are going to have Brady Quinn (the next Tom Brady), two years from now you are going to have Brian Brohm (the next Peyton Manning), three years from now you are going to have Ryan Perilloux (a better Vince Young), four years from now you are going to have Jimmy Clausen (the best QB prospect in decades). If Carr turns out to be a bust over the next few years, we will have no problem getting the next transcendent QB of the NFL.
 
We are in rebuilding mode....teams that go 2-14 arent one or two players away...we arent reloading...we are starting from scratch and realizing the plan we had didnt work. Consider the few decent pieces we have (mathis, andre, dunta robinson, travis johnson) the equivalent of our expansion draft, and proceed from there. We WERENT better than our record indicated...if we go 4-12 next year are you going to claim it was because of the players adjusting to a new coach? Come on now, admit that its basically year one again. we did 4-12 our first first year, its feasible we do that again.
 
swtbound07 said:
We are in rebuilding mode....teams that go 2-14 arent one or two players away...we arent reloading...we are starting from scratch and realizing the plan we had didnt work. Consider the few decent pieces we have (mathis, andre, dunta robinson, travis johnson) the equivalent of our expansion draft, and proceed from there. We WERENT better than our record indicated...if we go 4-12 next year are you going to claim it was because of the players adjusting to a new coach? Come on now, admit that its basically year one again. we did 4-12 our first first year, its feasible we do that again.
Click to expand...

That you would list Travis Johnson as a "piece" should be cause to question all of your opinions. What - other than his ridiculous track record as a half-asser, at both FSU and with the Texans - has caused you to think that he is a piece to anything? Please let me know.
 
jerek said:
Plenty of decent QBs have won Super Bowls, and plenty of great QBs have not. Do we even know that Vince will be great?

It comes down to what will be the most valuable to the team, again, all things considered. My take: trade that pick = most value.
Click to expand...
10 of the last 15 Super Bowl winning QB's have been considered "Great" while the other 5 have been only "Decent".
Can Carr be Brad Johnson "Decent".........NO! Not mistake-free enough.
Can Carr be Kurt Warner "Decent"..........NO! Not highly accurate enough.
Can Carr be Ben R-Berger "Decent"........Doubt it. We'll have to let the WR's throw the TD's too in our Super Bowl if we make it.
Can Carr be Mark Rypien "Decent".........Maybe, I don't know enough about the guy.
Can Carr be Trent Dilfer "Decent"...........Yes! Now all we have to do is construct the one of the best, if not the best, defenses.

So IMHO, he barely stacks up against 1 or 2 of those guys. Maybe he has a 20%-40% chance of capturing lightning in a bottle and riding the coattails of his teammates (like Ben and Trent truely did) in a Super Bowl victory. And that is with him compared to the bottom 1/3 of the Super Bowl winning QB's.

Don't even get me started on his (non) comparisons to Elway, Montana, Farvre, S.Young, Aikman, and Brady. All these guys with the exception of S.Young led their team to multiple Super Bowls and all the others have 2 or more Rings except for Favre. I like those odds better. 2/3's of a chance compared to 1/3's of a chance.

Now I'm not saying VY is the answer. If some of you may have noticed I've kept the VY man-crush a little quiet cuz even I noticed how ridiculous I was sounding but.....I definately advocate us drafting VY but more importantly want a change at the QB position irregardless. Carr ain't got what it takes to even be second or third fiddle on this team even if we do manage string together a few wins with or without our QB even being "Decent".
 
tulexan said:
Next year you are going to have Brady Quinn (the next Tom Brady), two years from now you are going to have Brian Brohm (the next Peyton Manning), three years from now you are going to have Ryan Perilloux (a better Vince Young), four years from now you are going to have Jimmy Clausen (the best QB prospect in decades). If Carr turns out to be a bust over the next few years, we will have no problem getting the next transcendent QB of the NFL.
Click to expand...
Why wait?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top