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DC and VY from a coach point of view
- Thread starter expwrlifter
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TexanBacker93
Veteran
stevo3883 said:
Houston Texans fans aren't all from this city. Even fans living here didn't all originate here. I would bet if they could poll every Texans fan living in the city as many would want Bush, Brick, or Mario than want Young.
I know UT fans that don't want Vince. I know non-UT fans that do want him. It's not just a few, but they are the loudest.
TexanBacker93
Veteran
Maddict5 said:
I was thinking of L.J. Shelton when I saw Levi Jones. I know the names aren't the same, but that's who I was thinking of. I don't consider Jones a bust. He is one of the top LTs. McKinnie is too, though.
Koolbrz
Waterboy
Big B Texan Fan said:
They don't have his #. Our team just sucked last yr. DC is not looking to run and has a better arm than VY. Damn, everyone was all up on DC's wagon in 04. Talkin about next yr he will take us to the playoffs. Now everyone wants his head on a silver platter. Honestly, if the play calling would have been better, instead of the run, run, pass gig they had going all yr, better o-line, better team all around no one would be DC hating so much. Come on now, am i not telling the truth. Did you even know that they had switched up the offensve scheme for the begining of the yr. Then after the 2nd game tried to go back to the offense they ran the yr. before. That is after running the new offensive scheme all preseason long and first 2 games of season.
Wolf
100% Texan
funny how people on here get blinders on (or should I say tunnel vision) and it is easy to twist things around about this guy didn't get to the superbowl or that guy so they must be bad
For some reason we relate whether ONE player can carry a team to a championship
I see no Michael Jordan -equivalent in the NFL.. where one player can carry a team (Jordan about the only player)
If that is the case. Peyton, Marino, Barry Sanders,Bo Jackson,Randy Moss , Earl Campbell, (just naming alllstars here) would have some SuperBowl wins and not people like Larry Brown,Trent Dilfer (just trying to think of some skill position non all-stars)
In all sports it is a team effort and destiny has a way.. I mean would would have thought Robert Horry or John Salley has numerous NBA titles over someone like Barkley
or back to football .. someone had a quote about .. "the only reason Emmitt Smith was a Cowboy is because Blair Thomas was taken" or something to that effect..
Carr is far from being "great" but I feel he hasn't been in a position to grow. (if he can grow)
2002.. OL stunk...yet Palmer had to run a vanilla offense (hitches and predictable runs up the middle on passing downs) just to keep him from getting knocked around.
2003.. we saw about the same..
2004 protection was better and we got AJ the ball on quick slants and AJ made Carr look great because he could break one (don't reacall his YAC offhand)
2005 protection went south and AJ couldn't get the slants and stats fell..
Carr has confidence problems IMO.. maybe not in himself, but with the system that we ran and confidence in his OL
As with the grumbling on the defense .. same scenario..
Good QB's when rushed... look downfield and "feel" the pressure... Carr still looks at the Pressure and "feels" the turf (whether it is the defense coming on him or like Vinny said.. curls up) and hopefully coaching can straighten him out mentally
anyway end rant..
For some reason we relate whether ONE player can carry a team to a championship
I see no Michael Jordan -equivalent in the NFL.. where one player can carry a team (Jordan about the only player)
If that is the case. Peyton, Marino, Barry Sanders,Bo Jackson,Randy Moss , Earl Campbell, (just naming alllstars here) would have some SuperBowl wins and not people like Larry Brown,Trent Dilfer (just trying to think of some skill position non all-stars)
In all sports it is a team effort and destiny has a way.. I mean would would have thought Robert Horry or John Salley has numerous NBA titles over someone like Barkley
or back to football .. someone had a quote about .. "the only reason Emmitt Smith was a Cowboy is because Blair Thomas was taken" or something to that effect..
Carr is far from being "great" but I feel he hasn't been in a position to grow. (if he can grow)
2002.. OL stunk...yet Palmer had to run a vanilla offense (hitches and predictable runs up the middle on passing downs) just to keep him from getting knocked around.
2003.. we saw about the same..
2004 protection was better and we got AJ the ball on quick slants and AJ made Carr look great because he could break one (don't reacall his YAC offhand)
2005 protection went south and AJ couldn't get the slants and stats fell..
Carr has confidence problems IMO.. maybe not in himself, but with the system that we ran and confidence in his OL
As with the grumbling on the defense .. same scenario..
Good QB's when rushed... look downfield and "feel" the pressure... Carr still looks at the Pressure and "feels" the turf (whether it is the defense coming on him or like Vinny said.. curls up) and hopefully coaching can straighten him out mentally
anyway end rant..
Maddict5
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
1- have these 'excuses' been discredited-has it been shown that in fact DC has loads of time in the pocket- please explain what you expect VY to do if he has no o-line
2-what is it with all the 'VY could be...' any player in the draft 'could be'...a HoF....a bust....no1 ever knows
3- correct me if im wrong, but i havent heard Kubiak sayin he'll run the Dom Capers style of offence
Maddict5
Hall of Fame
TexanBacker93 said:
ok fair enough..all the other o-line 'busts' you named were spot on so i accept it was a slip..still think mckinnie is way overrated..id regard him as average at best at pass protection and for some1 his size you'd think he would be a better run-blocker
Texans_Chick said:You do not know that pocket passers = wins or mobile QBs = no Super Bowl. You haven't got a large enough sample to make such a conclusion, and even if you had a huge sample, that sorta reasoning doesn't take into account individual talent differences between players that defy categorization.
It just so happens that most great QBs in NFL history are pocket passers and most of the atrocious QBs in NFL history are pocket passers. You can't draw any conclusion from that, other than surmising that most NFL QBs are pocket passers.
I kinda like this logic fallacy.
David Carr is better than nothing.
Nothing is better than God.
Therefore David Carr is better than God.
(cue lightning bolt).
The sample is in the statics and the list of QBs SuperBolw winners. +/- 37 of 40.
funny logic you post...but not really accurated.
its more like the Darwin´s theory : natural selection makes passer QBs win SB (if not, mobile QB could win a SB too), so a "new" QB, would like to be a winner tipe or a loser...been a passer a Qb has a chance , been a mobile hasnt....so thats why there are (much) more passer than mobile Qbs, because a MOBILE QB NO WINS SB.
BTW: Nothing is better than God???
Nighthawk
Rookie
Maddict5 said:1- have these 'excuses' been discredited-has it been shown that in fact DC has loads of time in the pocket- please explain what you expect VY to do if he has no o-line
2-what is it with all the 'VY could be...' any player in the draft 'could be'...a HoF....a bust....no1 ever knows
3- correct me if im wrong, but i havent heard Kubiak sayin he'll run the Dom Capers style of offence
1. WWVYD? Move, something Carr can't do except (a) into a sack, or (b) toward the sidelines
2. VY has a career at prior levels that show him to be well above most other players at those levels, thus it is reasonable to infer that he has a good chance of being well above average at the next level.
3. K will, we all assume, run Denver's offense, or some variant thereof.
Wolf said:funny how people on here get blinders on (or should I say tunnel vision) and it is easy to twist things around about this guy didn't get to the superbowl or that guy so they must be bad
For some reason we relate whether ONE player can carry a team to a championship
I see no Michael Jordan -equivalent in the NFL.. where one player can carry a team (Jordan about the only player)
If that is the case. Peyton, Marino, Barry Sanders,Bo Jackson,Randy Moss , Earl Campbell, (just naming alllstars here) would have some SuperBowl wins and not people like Larry Brown,Trent Dilfer (just trying to think of some skill position non all-stars)
In all sports it is a team effort and destiny has a way.. I mean would would have thought Robert Horry or John Salley has numerous NBA titles over someone like Barkley
Good post alltogether. But.........
Not everybody here thought Carr would take us to the playoffs. I thought we'd get there, but not all of us thought Carr would take us.
Barkley...... Stockton...... Malone.... Iverson......... all great players. Great Talent. Michael Jordan had that extra something. If you can't see that, I understand how you don't understand.
At least you acknowledge that Carr has problems. You want to fix him. I don't. Well, I would if I didn't see Vince Young being much more than what Carr could be. That's why I could care less for Matt Lienart...... I doubt he is going to be much more than the best David Can be. Even Cutler...... from what I've seen, I'd love him to be on this team. I think he's got that competitive edge in him, that goes beyond his talent.
Maddict5 said:1- have these 'excuses' been discredited-has it been shown that in fact DC has loads of time in the pocket- please explain what you expect VY to do if he has no o-line
2-what is it with all the 'VY could be...' any player in the draft 'could be'...a HoF....a bust....no1 ever knows
3- correct me if im wrong, but i havent heard Kubiak sayin he'll run the Dom Capers style of offence
1: Throw the Ball...... Not to him.... those are the words that I screamed at my poor TV, as I saw How David handled himself out of the pocket..... yeah, that was a first down, but look he was open.. or he was open...., or don't run that way...... What are you doing...
2: There's got to be a reason you rank players coming out of college. Some players are projected to have better careers than others........... I'm not the only one who does this. You do it too. You just don't project Vince as highly as I do. That's ok.
3: You're not wrong about Kubiak's anouncing his offensive plans, however, your conclusion from my statement is wrong. It's a nock against Vince, because he ran a simple offense......... it's not David's fault, that he ran a simple offense. We'll take a step back drafting Vince, because he'll have to learn the offense. But we won't take a step back with David, who didn't run any offense at all for the last 4 years.....
Koolbrz said:
Were's the "it's a team game" mentallity?? If we want to go there, David still hasn't won three in a row. How many games has he thrown more than two touchdowns?? Pro-Bowls?? Offensive MVP-of-the-week?? has he even won one of Howie Long's tough man awards?? Phil Simms' Iron man awards?? a John Madden Turduckin leg?? anything??
MorKnolle
All Pro
Maddict5 said:
Vick does have one of the 5 strongest arms in the league, and I think he is getting more accurate than people realize. I think a lot of his accuracy problems can be attributed to the fact that he never has a consistent receiving core (Crumpler is the only decent receiver that has been with the team for more than two years outside of Brian Finneran. His receiving core keeps changing and it naturally takes both the QB and WRs time to adjust to each other. I think he also has a problem that Favre used to have with many of receivers that he can throw the ball pretty accurately when he guns it, but many of his guys have trouble catching passes that are thrown that hard, so he either needs to learn to put a little more of a soft touch on it or his receivers have to learn to catch his throws. His completion percentages are always pretty low, but he does take care of the ball and has never thrown more INTs than TDs after his rookie year (49-36 since then, which isn't a bad ratio).
bklatch
Practice Squad
texan279 said:
Because if DC and VY had been the QB's this year at UT, DC would not have started. Face it guys and gals DC played in the WAC. DC was a great QB in that league, but he has had 4 years and that is plenty. If he was so fast and so good he would have been able to make things happen for the Texans. In stead he suffered with brain lock and got sacked a lot. I agree with the coach VY will make things happen at the next level. We can either watch him do it on our team or watch him beat us playing for someone else.
MorKnolle said:
If I remember correctly, Vince was showing flashes of brilliance when Mock and crew were starting. People were wanting to start Vince, and Mack was dealing with his can't win the big one troubles.
You may very well be right, but I think starting Vince came at a time when Mack understood he needed to do something different...
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
stevo3883 said:
You mean the Chance Mock who won't ever play in the NFL and wasn't even drafted. Yup, that is pretty much the same question as any other pocket passer going up against him, much less someone who garnered a #1 overall pick. C'mon--that isn't in the same ball park--didn't really need to know much about VY to know that was silly.
infantrycak said:
So you guys don't see the comparison between McNabb and Culpepper??
infantrycak said:
what?
He said if they had a qb like Carr. i figured that meant a pocket passer. Chance Mock was i think the #3 qb recruit in the nation.
He suggested that if Texas had a pocket passing qb, that VY wouldve been moved to WR. except texas did have a more than capable junior pocket passing qb, and vince jumped him on the depth chart as a freshman.
just because he isnt in the nfl doesnt mean he wasn't any good.
MorKnolle
All Pro
stevo3883 said:
Chance Mock sure is a great QB, Carr was much better in college (and now) than Mock, and Mack Brown showed that he wanted to play a traditional QB rather than an athlete there so Carr most likely would have been given the starting spot and never had it taken from him and Vince would likely be a WR right now.
Wolf said:funny how people on here get blinders on (or should I say tunnel vision) and it is easy to twist things around about this guy didn't get to the superbowl or that guy so they must be bad
For some reason we relate whether ONE player can carry a team to a championship
I see no Michael Jordan -equivalent in the NFL.. where one player can carry a team (Jordan about the only player)
If that is the case. Peyton, Marino, Barry Sanders,Bo Jackson,Randy Moss , Earl Campbell, (just naming alllstars here) would have some SuperBowl wins and not people like Larry Brown,Trent Dilfer (just trying to think of some skill position non all-stars)
In all sports it is a team effort and destiny has a way.. I mean would would have thought Robert Horry or John Salley has numerous NBA titles over someone like Barkley
or back to football .. someone had a quote about .. "the only reason Emmitt Smith was a Cowboy is because Blair Thomas was taken" or something to that effect..
Carr is far from being "great" but I feel he hasn't been in a position to grow. (if he can grow)
2002.. OL stunk...yet Palmer had to run a vanilla offense (hitches and predictable runs up the middle on passing downs) just to keep him from getting knocked around.
2003.. we saw about the same..
2004 protection was better and we got AJ the ball on quick slants and AJ made Carr look great because he could break one (don't reacall his YAC offhand)
2005 protection went south and AJ couldn't get the slants and stats fell..
Carr has confidence problems IMO.. maybe not in himself, but with the system that we ran and confidence in his OL
As with the grumbling on the defense .. same scenario..
Good QB's when rushed... look downfield and "feel" the pressure... Carr still looks at the Pressure and "feels" the turf (whether it is the defense coming on him or like Vinny said.. curls up) and hopefully coaching can straighten him out mentallyanyway end rant..
exactly...and thats why we shouldnt draf VY.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
stevo3883 said:
This really is simple--just because VY beat out one pocket passer doesn't mean he would have beat out every pocket passer--also known as every pocket passer is not created equal. Applying those to this scenario, sorry but no there is no comparison between someone who may have been just fine in college but who the entire NFL rejected and someone who was universally viewed as a 1st round pick. I am not saying Young would not have beaten out Carr. All I am saying is Young beating out Mock has zilch to do with whether he would have been able to beat out Carr.
bigTEXan8
Rookie
bklatch said:
And I can see by only your 2nd post, you already know my exact position about Carr. I am from Fresno yes, but that doesn't mean I am blind to what is obvious. So, to inform you, to preven future rush of judgement, my opinion about Carr:
He is perfect...believe me, I'm not blind. I just credit his lack of production to lousy coaching, lack of production, lack of supporting cast. Appparently, I'm not the only one either. A majority of people in the NFL think that DC can succeed, provided he is given the benefit almost every other QB in the NFL has been given. Has Carr made mistakes, yeah, ones that drove me bonkers. But he has shown he can compete in the NFL legitimately.
bigTEXan8 said:
a majority of the people thought Couch was the right pick. They thought Ryan Leaf would be an NFL Star. A lot of people thought Indy would win the SuperBowl in 2005.
TheOgre
All Pro
thunderkyss said:
I would not consider McNair a running QB. Plummer is more of a running QB than McNair. You could even make the argument that McNabb wins with his arm, not his legs too. Michael Vick is really the only starting QB in the league that tries to win primarily with his legs, not his arm.
bklatch said:
So, if M. Leinart and VY had been the QB's this year at UT (or USC), VY would not have started....(?).
If DC and VY were availables in the same draft, who do you think would be the nr 1? impossible to know. You can say the WAC is weak and UT is in a more competitive league...but that include that VY has a better suporting cast that Carr so is logic to think that is more difficult to put good numbers in Fresno. The league doesnt mean much in this (DC vs VY).
Check the stats of their last year at college and wait for the result of the scouting combine for a fair comp.
BTW : ML is the best QB available in this draft (check the stats...3 Nat Champ games, 2 wins...etc etc).
TheOgre said:
Exactly, & I see Vince more along the mold of McNabb, than Vick. I think most people are. Hence the reason many people were saying he is what Mike Vick will be.
thunderkyss said:
I read a lot of "pro VY" posts but this is really strange...
You see Vince along the mold of McNabb???
College stats:
McNabb in 4 years : 1561 running yards and 8389 pass yards.
Young in 3 years : 3127 running yards and 6040 pass yards.
M. Vick in 2 years : 1202 running yards and 3074 pass yards.
As you can see, Young and Vick have a 1/3 Run/pass yard ratio, and McNabb 1/6 (half than VY and MV)......so how can you say that VY is more like McNabb than Vick????
McNabb is a passer Qb with very good legs.
Vick and Young are running QB with averages/good arms.
If you like VY its ok, but dont expect to see him like Mcnabb couse he isnt.
CarrIsFine
Noob
Dave Landry just said for the NFL he would draft Leinart and Cutler ahead of VY. He said if he was starting a college team he would draft VY first.
A lot of people don't seem to understand that the NFL really is different than college. A players strength that made him a stud in college may not be a critical success factor in the NFL. Bottom line is VY won't be able to shred defenses by himself running, so passing becomes the critical success factor. On that basis Leinart and Cutler are better choices. It will take VY a year just to get used to taking regular snaps/drops.
David Carr was picked number one because he can make all of the throws. Yes, he has other issues to work out, but number one an NFL QB has to be able to make all of the throws.
A lot of people don't seem to understand that the NFL really is different than college. A players strength that made him a stud in college may not be a critical success factor in the NFL. Bottom line is VY won't be able to shred defenses by himself running, so passing becomes the critical success factor. On that basis Leinart and Cutler are better choices. It will take VY a year just to get used to taking regular snaps/drops.
David Carr was picked number one because he can make all of the throws. Yes, he has other issues to work out, but number one an NFL QB has to be able to make all of the throws.
CarrIsFine said:
what if I don't agree that he won't be able to be a very effective runner in the nfl?
and a year just to get used to taking snaps? are you serious? he's been a qb for what 8 years, he knows how to take a freaking snap.
and saying Cutler is a better passer is debateable, and frankly i don't think jay cutler should be in the same breath as leinart or VY as they are two of the best college qb's ive ever seen.
CarrIsFine
Noob
Well, that is your opinion, and the other is that of a veteran NFL scout that now consults NFL teams/colleges. I don't really know your credentials, so I'll leave it at that.stevo3883 said:
Yes, I was exaggerating about a year to learn to snap, but the main point is he didn't play in a pro-style offense (see Alex Smith).
CarrIsFine
Noob
My bad, the name is Chris Landry. Dave Landry is the stock market guy.
kingdee09
Another One
texan279 said:
Young produced so much more than Carr in college, Carr only had a few good games in college. VY has taken a team to two championships...VY is a leader and thats exactly what DC isnt. DC has been given 4 years to prove himself as a franchise QB and it still hasnt happend..how long does houston have to wait for him to improve?
Overall VY is a better player than DC whether hes steped on an NFL field or not....VY is the furture for the Texans somethin that DC cant be
Koolbrz
Waterboy
thunderkyss said:
Ask me these same questions in about 2-3 yrs. Then i will be able to give you an answer. That is, now that he is going to have much better coaching, better line, possibly a GAMEBREAKER in RB, and an improved defense. You know a defense that will not blow a lead in the last couple of min. of a game. Oh one more thing, I have been saying that it is a team game since i became a member of this MB. Everyone else seems to think that it is DC's fault that we sux, and that VY alone can get us to the superbowl...LMAO...Yeah right!!!
texarg said:
Well, First:
thunderkyss said:
texarg said:
Vince improved, and changed his game...... he became more of a passer, than a runner. He did this by working with McNair in the offseason. I agree he still has problems with his game. I agree he should sit out his first year. But I think he is mature enough, and bright enough to play through it. Yes there will be some losses, but you'll still be able to see his potential everygame.
kingdee09
Another One
Koolbrz said:
VY would probly get us to a super bowl quicker than DC will. Im not saying its 100% DC's fault we suck but it is at least 75-80% why we do. DC has no leadership cant carry the texans to a 3 game win streak he barely got his 2 game winners.
It takes at least 2-3 years for a QB to improve from the start of his rookie season. DC is a 4 year experienced QB that shows no sign of improvment and is a defences favorite target. VY is a leader his teamates trust him and believe in him he can put this team back together plus he can take over a game at all cost. 2 4th quarter comebacks in 2 championship games. VY has probly experienced more than DC has ever had and VY isnt even a pro yet.
So check back with me in 2-3 years when DC is on the bench watching VY take the team to a SB. DC taking Texans to the SB...LMAO...YEAH RIGHT!!!!!
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