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Davis Mills vs rookie QBs

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I'm allowing him more time to learn his craft. He will continue to learn.

Again, to me it's about the mindset of the organization. Every decision must be about winning. If Mills gives you the best chance to win, you play him. If Tyrod gives you the best chance to win, you play him.

If developing Mills is more important than winning games, then this team will never get past the divisional round. I know you don't get it... or at least you think differently. But winning begets winning. Not wanting to win every moment of every play, drive, qtr, half, game has to be rooted out completely.
Tell that to the Manning's/ Herbert etc....

And playing the rookie QB doesn't mean you're not trying to win games.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
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If Mills stops progressing (or if he doesn't progress), letting him see the game from the sidelines could be beneficial. It's really too soon to have an opinion, one way or the other. My feeling is, let the situation play out.
What would you consider progression over the next couple of weeks.
 

Dejaview

All Pro
I'm allowing him more time to learn his craft. He will continue to learn.

Again, to me it's about the mindset of the organization. Every decision must be about winning. If Mills gives you the best chance to win, you play him. If Tyrod gives you the best chance to win, you play him.

If developing Mills is more important than winning games, then this team will never get past the divisional round. I know you don't get it... or at least you think differently. But winning begets winning. Not wanting to win every moment of every play, drive, qtr, half, game has to be rooted out completely.
Lol, these were my expressed thoughts but I seemed to have lost out to the “we are tanking” gurus. Playing not to win is bull ****.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
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Who in particular said to bench Mills because he's a rookie?

Most everyone I've seen here says to sit him because the other guy gives us the better chance to win.
Yep, I misunderstood what you were saying. (This is for those who say that I never admit I'm wrong, another fallacy.)

Fact is we're talking about long term different philosophies. If you let Mills play (Like the Jags/Jets/Bears/Pats are doing) and he keeps improving then you've won long term even if the record isn't good this yr. A plus in doing things this way is you get another high draft pick next offseason

Versus playing TT and maybe winning a couple of more games and finishing say 6-11. (Seems weird typing this) Is finishing 6-11 vs say 4-13 going to really make a difference in setting a winning culture for the org? Versus letting your young QB learn under game conditions and therefore speeding up the learning process. The only reason not to keep starting Mills is if he regresses, or you dont think the OL can protect him and that he will get hurt.
 
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thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
And playing the rookie QB doesn't mean you're not trying to win games.
I understand that. But as of right now, especially with the running game being what it is. Tyrod gives us a much better chance to win.

3 games from now if Mills is playing at more than game manager level & the run game is able to take serious weight off his shoulder then yes it might make sense. Right now, I don’t believe it is.

We disagree. That’s ok.


Tell that to the Manning's/ Herbert etc...
You’re completely missing the point if these are your comps.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
A plus in doing things this way is you get another high draft pick next offseason
This is another fundamental difference. I can not understand how earning a high pick is winning. That the Texans have already had three number 1 overall picks should be evidence enough. Coupled with all the loser teams who continue to be loser teams is even more evidence.

The Rams seem to have finally got over that thinking.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
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This is another fundamental difference. I can not understand how earning a high pick is winning. That the Texans have already had three number 1 overall picks should be evidence enough. Coupled with all the loser teams who continue to be loser teams is even more evidence.

The Rams seem to have finally got over that thinking.
If you happen to win while you're QB is learning that's a bonus. If you lose while he's learning then that's also a win. Win-Winn.

If you dont let the young QB take his lumps this yr then he will be taking them next yr. It's part of the learning process. Mahomes is an outlier.

BTW, I agree with the Rams philosophy over say Badboy's philosophy. The Rams have proven there's more than 1 way to skin a cat. But it costs more $$$$ to build a team this way.
 

Jack Burton

Rookie
If you happen to win while you're QB is learning that's a bonus. If you lose while he's learning then that's also a win. Win-Winn.

If you dont let the young QB take his lumps this yr then he will be taking them next yr. It's part of the learning process. Mahomes is an outlier.

BTW, I agree with the Rams philosophy over say Badboy's philosophy. The Rams have proven there's more than 1 way to skin a cat. But it costs more $$$$ to build a team this way.
Mahomes walked into the ideal, perfect situation.
He had zero pressure his rookie year, sitting and watching and then was able to slide right into a top 3 team with a ready made offense, tailored for him. Similar to Marino.
I think Marino played 6 games his rookie year? And then he was unleashed. Remember that MIA team went to the SB and they drafted Marino the following draft.
Ready made team for Dan.


Elway is considered the greatest college prospect ever and arguably the greatest QB ever and he was benched his rookie year for 5 games. He came back and led DEN to the playoffs.

Each team and each QB is different.

Mills is doing what anyone could ever ask of him so far. Just gotta wait and see from here.
 

Speedy

Former Yeller Dweller
I'm allowing him more time to learn his craft. He will continue to learn.

Again, to me it's about the mindset of the organization. Every decision must be about winning. If Mills gives you the best chance to win, you play him. If Tyrod gives you the best chance to win, you play him.

If developing Mills is more important than winning games, then this team will never get past the divisional round. I know you don't get it... or at least you think differently. But winning begets winning. Not wanting to win every moment of every play, drive, qtr, half, game has to be rooted out completely.
And what is the mindset of the organization? I heard with my own ears the guy in charge say this season was not results driven but process driven. I see Culley declining penalties that would give him a do over on 3rd down and punting instead, or never going for it on 4th down in plus territory. I see an o-line that's supposed to be miles ahead of what they were under Devlin, looking worse, at least in the run game, under Campen, than they ever did with Devlin.

The players are on the field playing to win every snap they can. They are not the ones who do the tanking. Not sure what the rest of the organization is doing.
 

OptimisticTexan

2021 Building Block 1 / Go Texans
I know it was mentioned in another post but does anyone care to remind us of the other top QB’s who benefitted from carrying a clipboard in their first and possibly second seasons?
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
I know it was mentioned in another post but does anyone care to remind us of the other top QB’s who benefitted from carrying a clipboard in their first and possibly second seasons?
Mahomes only played in a meaningless last game of his rookie season.
Reid must have thought it's beneficial to the rookie.

Alex Smith saw the growth.

Don't forget Tyrek Hill's candid first impression of Mahomes "I thought he was trash".
It must mean there were a lot of things a rookie like Mahomes can learn from a pro like Alex.
 

OptimisticTexan

2021 Building Block 1 / Go Texans
Aj McCarron
I’ll help you get started down the right path:

A-A-Ron Rodgers served as QB2 from 2005-2007. Interesting read about the personal QB school McCarthy put him through when he arrived in 06. He made Rodgers go through his school for 6 hours a day. Rodgers wasn’t to thrilled about this but later conceded it did make him a better QB.
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
I know it was mentioned in another post but does anyone care to remind us of the other top QB’s who benefitted from carrying a clipboard in their first and possibly second seasons?
Not sure how far back you want to go, but going down the all-time passing yards list shows that these all sat at least their rookie season:

1. Drew Brees (2nd round)
2. Tom Brady (6th round) - ACTIVE
4. Brett Favre (2nd round)
5. Philip Rivers (1st round)
10. Aaron Rodgers (1st round) - ACTIVE
15. Vinny Testaverde (1st round)
21. Joe Montana (3rd round)
23. Dave Krieg (UDFA)
24. Boomer Esiason (2nd round)
26. Matt Hasselback (6th round)
30. Ryan Fitzpatrick (7th round) - ACTIVE
35. Tony Romo (UDFA)

These started at some point in their rookie year, but not a Day 1 starter:
6. Dan Marino (1st round)
7. Big Ben (1st round) - ACTIVE
8. Eli Manning (1st round)
20. Kerry Collins (1st round)
25. Donovan McNabb (1st round)
27. Alex Smith (1st round)
29. Jay Cutler (1st round)
32. Jim Everett (1st round)

Discounting 4 guys in the top 35 that played in way back eras, that's 20/31 not being named the starter at beginning of their rookie season.

Edited to add:

There are only two guys in the all-time top 10 for passing yards that started Day 1 of their rookie years: Peyton Manning and Matt Ryan
 
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Lucky

Not like this. Not like this.
Staff member
There are only two guys in the all-time top 10 for passing yards that started Day 1 of their rookie years: Peyton Manning and Matt Ryan
So 20%? What is the % of rookie QBs that start from day 1? My guess is 20% or less.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
And what is the mindset of the organization? I heard with my own ears the guy in charge say this season was not results driven but process driven. I see Culley declining penalties that would give him a do over on 3rd down and punting instead, or never going for it on 4th down in plus territory. I see an o-line that's supposed to be miles ahead of what they were under Devlin, looking worse, at least in the run game, under Campen, than they ever did with Devlin.

The players are on the field playing to win every snap they can. They are not the ones who do the tanking. Not sure what the rest of the organization is doing.
We all heard that.
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
So 20%? What is the % of rookie QBs that start from day 1? My guess is 20% or less.
When you look at Top 35 it is about one-third. Was just pointing out how small the number was within the elite, but still the number of Day 1 starting rookies isn't as high as some of the proponents of "let him take his lumps because it makes him a better QB" philosophy.

I do think that the changes in college programs to more pro-style offenses have allowed more QB's recently to be Day 1 starters, but that could also be bad teams making more bad decisions. I want to look through the last 10 drafts and see the data. Stay tuned.
 

Dejaview

All Pro
We all heard that.
The guy who said the season is process driven has more than one task to perform. Results are the measure of the process No doubt. He knows that. No doubt he wants to win as much as the coaches and players. But he was implying that to clean up this roster, to make it competitive and to shape it for future drafts he also has to make some initial moves that may impede the job of his coaches. In essence he is putting the results of this season on his own shoulders to deflect unfair criticism on his players and coaches. It’s about time that we are seeing responsibility at his level. Good changes are coming IMO.
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
The guy who said the season is process driven has more than one task to perform. Results are the measure of the process No doubt. He knows that. No doubt he wants to win as much as the coaches and players. But he was implying that to clean up this roster, to make it competitive and to shape it for future drafts he also has to make some initial moves that may impede the job of his coaches. In essence he is putting the results of this season on his own shoulders to deflect unfair criticism on his players and coaches. It’s about time that we are seeing responsibility at his level. Good changes are coming IMO.
It is ridiculously early for some to be judging the results and process, regardless of whose feet the accountability should be laid at. I knew the latent level this team didn't have. I knew the culture change this org needed to make. I knew what Culley's role and TT's role were in this grand scheme. I also knew it would take more than three games to start seeing results.

That being said, I am giving the side-eye to the running game and/or OL run blocking. In their own words, they were supposed to be committed to the run.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
When you look at Top 35 it is about one-third. Was just pointing out how small the number was within the elite, but still the number of Day 1 starting rookies isn't as high as some of the proponents of "let him take his lumps because it makes him a better QB" philosophy.

I do think that the changes in college programs to more pro-style offenses have allowed more QB's recently to be Day 1 starters, but that could also be bad teams making more bad decisions. I want to look through the last 10 drafts and see the data. Stay tuned.
Jags vs Bengals

2 day 1 starters.

Not that Mills falls into this category.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
It is ridiculously early for some to be judging the results and process, regardless of whose feet the accountability should be laid at. I knew the latent level this team didn't have. I knew the culture change this org needed to make. I knew what Culley's role and TT's role were in this grand scheme. I also knew it would take more than three games to start seeing results.

That being said, I am giving the side-eye to the running game and/or OL run blocking. In their own words, they were supposed to be committed to the run.
The OL has 2 new starters and 4 guys playing different positions, hopefully this is a case of, it's gonna take some time for the OL to jell and they have played the top ,defenses in the league.
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
Jags vs Bengals

2 day 1 starters.

Not that Mills falls into this category.
Considering how Burrows' rookie season went, and how Lawrence's is currently going, there are cases to be made that they could have benefitted from sitting at least the start of their rookie seasons. But the Bengals got rid of Dalton and the Jags got rid of Minshew so they set themselves up to be forced to play the rookies no matter what.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Considering how Burrows' rookie season went, and how Lawrence's is currently going, there are cases to be made that they could have benefitted from sitting at least the start of their rookie seasons. But the Bengals got rid of Dalton and the Jags got rid of Minshew so they set themselves up to be forced to play the rookies no matter what.
Burrow was playing very well before he got hurt. As well as Herbert was playing.

They didn't set themselves up to be forced to play Lawrence. They obviously wanted to play Lawrence.
 

sandman

Brexit Advisor
Burrow was playing very well before he got hurt. As well as Herbert was playing.

They didn't set themselves up to be forced to play Lawrence. They obviously wanted to play Lawrence.
Burrow played 10 games (2-7-1). In Herbert's first 10 games (2-8) he had 300 more passing yards, 10 more TD's, 5 games with a passer rating over 100 (Burrow had 2) and 5 games with a QBR over 75 (Burrow had 1). Burrow was having a good rookie year before he got hurt, but they were not playing at the same level.

My whole point is that if Lawrence struggles (and he is), they have no other option. No capable vet as a backup both for giving him a breather and to mentor. The only other QB on their roster is Beathard who has 3 years experience as a backup/injury starter in SF.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Burrow played 10 games (2-7-1). In Herbert's first 10 games (2-8) he had 300 more passing yards, 10 more TD's, 5 games with a passer rating over 100 (Burrow had 2) and 5 games with a QBR over 75 (Burrow had 1). Burrow was having a good rookie year before he got hurt, but they were not playing at the same level.

My whole point is that if Lawrence struggles (and he is), they have no other option. No capable vet as a backup both for giving him a breather and to mentor. The only other QB on their roster is Beathard who has 3 years experience as a backup/injury starter in SF.
Which is the way Meyer wants it to be.
 


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