Davis Mills vs rookie QBs

[OptimisticTexan]

I don't think talent is the issue. You don't get to the NFL if you don't have talent.

For Mills it's between his ears where he needs to progress. Processing the defense. Processing his offense, processing what he can & can't do.

Just like a coach needs to assess the talent on his team & plan accordingly. Mills has to do the same as a player

…..don’t forget, to begin the processing process….one must have a pocket in which to work from. Hopefully Caserio can finally find a way to get these puzzle pieces on the table at the same time over the next 2-3 drafts.

 

[thunderkyss]

…..don’t forget, to begin the processing process….one must have a pocket in which to work from. Hopefully Caserio can finally find a way to get these puzzle pieces on the table at the same time over the next 2-3 drafts.

False.

Did you watch Joe Burrow against the Titans in the Div playoff game? Sacked 9 times & still processed the heck out of the Titans.

An OL is preferable. But if you can't evaluate your QB apart from the rest of the team you end up wasting 6 years on a David Carr.

 

[steelbtexan]

I like the way you think. Hopefully Jack reads this.

Yep, and adding Burks at say 1-20 after Neal at 1-3 then add Salyer at 2-37 and Caserio would be off to a great start in the draft. Get guys like like Goodrich/ Woods in the 3rd and Calactera in the 4th and I would think that woulD work.

…..don’t forget, to begin the processing process….one must have a pocket in which to work from. Hopefully Caserio can finally find a way to get these puzzle pieces on the table at the same time over the next 2-3 drafts.

And get some weapons for Mills to throw too. A RB wouldn't hurt either.

Caserio has so much to fix on the offensive side of the ball.

 

[Lucky]

False.

Did you watch Joe Burrow against the Titans in the Div playoff game? Sacked 9 times & still processed the heck out of the Titans.

An OL is preferable. But if you can't evaluate your QB apart from the rest of the team you end up wasting 6 years on a David Carr.

Having possibly the best #1, best #2, and best #3 WRs in the league helps Burrow enormously. And getting smacked as much as Burrow has this season is not sustainable. You must have blocking for a QB to survive.

 

[OptimisticTexan]

False.

Did you watch Joe Burrow against the Titans in the Div playoff game? Sacked 9 times & still processed the heck out of the Titans.

An OL is preferable. But if you can't evaluate your QB apart from the rest of the team you end up wasting 6 years on a David Carr.

steelb and Lucky pretty much summed up my response perfectly. When debating it’s only fair to do so when we put all apples or oranges on the table.

Burrow has a running game, top notch receivers, effective TE’s, and a somewhat questionable OL.

Mills has no running game, one top notch receiver, ineffective TE’s b/c they’re kept in as blockers, and an OL that would be a massive step up if they were only somewhat questionable.

On a side note….Bengals are here to stay…at least for a while….and they’ll only get better when they add OL talent and some additional pieces on defense.

 

[thunderkyss]

Having possibly the best #1, best #2, and best #3 WRs in the league helps Burrow enormously. And getting smacked as much as Burrow has this season is not sustainable. You must have blocking for a QB to survive.

I don’t disagree. The point was you have to be able to evaluate your QB in spite of the team around him

 

[thunderkyss]

Mills has no running game, one top notch receiver, ineffective TE’s b/c they’re kept in as blockers, and an OL that would be a massive step up if they were only somewhat questionable.

Still you believe Mills is worth going forward with. Despite everything that happened around him you saw him as an attribute to the team.

 

[Texansphan]

Still you believe Mills is worth going forward with. Despite everything that happened around him you saw him as an attribute to the team.

I think it would be silly not to try and see what we really have with Mills - you cannot get an accurate assessment after just one rookie season in a rebuilding team.
You're going to continue to improve the team anyway.
Sure, go ahead and bring in another QB to compete and may the best man win, but you still have to give both guys a decent team around them if you have aspirations of winning championships.

 

[thunderkyss]

Sure, go ahead and bring in another QB to compete and may the best man win, but you still have to give both guys a decent team around them if you have aspirations of winning championships.

Gotcha. If that’s what we’re debating you win. But it has nothing to do with what I’m saying.

 

[Texansphan]

Gotcha. If that’s what we’re debating you win. But it has nothing to do with what I’m saying.

Sure, a good QB can make the players around him better but few would disagree that one like Trevor Lawrence for example will not improve - a sentiment most in here express about Davis Mills.
For an experience deprived QB, and being selected in the third round, Mills has evident upside worth developing - if not as starter, then at the very least, as backup.
Who knows, some QB hungry team may offer a trade if you sit him on the bench behind another starter - who also will find it difficult to produce his best on this team as it currently sits.

 

[TheRealJoker]

I really would like to see Pep and Mccown together on the offensive coaching staff. Give Mills the best chance to succeed with awesome coaching.

 

[OptimisticTexan]

Still you believe Mills is worth going forward with. Despite everything that happened around him you saw him as an attribute to the team.

Yes. I saw enough good things in Mills to feel even more comfortable in saying the team should start building a team around him. If I wanted Mills to succeed, I’d bring in a solid veteran/mentor/insurance for the 2022-2023 seasons. This is how Mills would continue to progress while Caserio continues to assemble the team.

 

[OptimisticTexan]

I don’t disagree. The point was you have to be able to evaluate your QB in spite of the team around him

If the 49’ers had evaluated Steve Young under those parameters…..they’d left him to rot in Tampa Bay. Even when he got to the 49’ers, he had to follow Montana for 4 years before he was handed the starting reins. How’s the old saying go….”Rome wasn’t built overnight”. Thank goodness for Young that Rome had already been built when it was his turn.

Another one, “patience is a virtue” would be excellent if used during this rebuilding process.

 

[Number19]

I really would like to see Pep and Mccown together on the offensive coaching staff. Give Mills the best chance to succeed with awesome coaching.

If Gannon would come on board, conceding the coaching staff under Caserio, Pep as OC and McCown as qb coach would appear to be a nice combination.

Something I don't think has been commented on, is Pep in tune with Caserio? Or does he have his own ideas he would like to put in place?

 

[steelbtexan]

I don’t disagree. The point was you have to be able to evaluate your QB in spite of the team around him

You cant really make s proper evaulation like that. You can evaluate his reading of defenses, processing speed, accuracy and anticipation. But not know what you really have until you put talent around your young QB.

 

[thunderkyss]

If the 49’ers had evaluated Steve Young under those parameters…..they’d left him to rot in Tampa Bay. Even when he got to the 49’ers, he had to follow Montana for 4 years before he was handed the starting reins. How’s the old saying go….”Rome wasn’t built overnight”. Thank goodness for Young that Rome had already been built when it was his turn.

Another one, “patience is a virtue” would be excellent if used during this rebuilding process.

I don't follow. The 49ers appear to have evaluated Young despite the talent in Tampa Bay.

 

[Texansballer74]

Yes. I saw enough good things in Mills to feel even more comfortable in saying the team should start building a team around him. If I wanted Mills to succeed, I’d bring in a solid veteran/mentor/insurance for the 2022-2023 seasons. This is how Mills would continue to progress while Caserio continues to assemble the team.

Hey they can bring in Jimmy G. Ole Steels favorite player. Lol

 

[OptimisticTexan]

I don't follow. The 49ers appear to have evaluated Young despite the talent in Tampa Bay.

….as I’ve evaluated Mill’s despite the team around him. Of course, this is just my opinion since I’m on no NFL team’s payroll.

 

[thunderkyss]

….as I’ve evaluated Mill’s despite the team around him. Of course, this is just my opinion since I’m on no NFL team’s payroll.

Which is what I said. You have to be able to evaluate your QB (any player really) individually, apart from the team around him.

Our run game sucked. But what do you think about Jimmy Morrissey?

 

[Number19]

Which is what I said. You have to be able to evaluate your QB (any player really) individually, apart from the team around him.

Our run game sucked. But what do you think about Jimmy Morrissey?

Morrissey is a late round pick with size and length issues. Will be below average as a run blocker. I want to draft an OC on the second day or early on the third.

 

[vtech9]

Which is what I said. You have to be able to evaluate your QB (any player really) individually, apart from the team around him.

Our run game sucked. But what do you think about Jimmy Morrissey?

I like Morrissey in the ZBS, but he is only serviceable in the power running game. I went back and watched some of his pre-season games while with the Raiders, and he was one of the bright spots, but because of experience, Nick Martin beat him out for the backup spot. He still needs to get stronger, but he's still young, so that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Number19]

I like Morrissey in the ZBS, but he is only serviceable in the power running game. I went back and watched some of his pre-season games while with the Raiders, and he was one of the bright spots, but because of experience, Nick Martin beat him out for the backup spot. He still needs to get stronger, but he's still young, so that shouldn't be a problem.

With Pep now the OC, we may be using more ZBS, although his offense emphases power running as well.

 

[vtech9]

With Pep now the OC, we may be using more ZBS, although his offense emphases power running as well.

With that one change, our current OLine just got better. And as an extension of that, our running game got better as well. With an upgraded running game, defenses can't sell out to stop the passing game, so that should make Mills better as well. All of that makes the whole offense better. A better offense means the defense will have more time to rest in between series, which should make the defense better. That's a win all around in my book.

Now, this is all conjecture at this point. The team still has to buy into the change, and the magic word, execute.

 

[thunderkyss]

With that one change, our current OLine just got better.

Pep described more of a Power run game

 

[Number19]

Pep described more of a Power run game

I agree. But I've heard of ZBS broken down to include an "outside" ZBS, as opposed to...what? The question I have is, can you have a power running offense using zone blocking?

 

[The Pencil Neck]

I agree. But I've heard of ZBS broken down to include an "outside" ZBS, as opposed to...what? The question I have is, can you have a power running offense using zone blocking?

There's outside and inside zone. It all depends on where you try to attack. Kubiak and Shanahan favored outside zone where you run to the outside like a sweep and wait for seams to appear. In an inside zone, it's more about flooding the inside, hitting the guys in front of you, and then the RB looking for daylight there.

At least, that's my understanding.

 

[Number19]

... In an inside zone, it's more about flooding the inside, hitting the guys in front of you, and then the RB looking for daylight there.

At least, that's my understanding.

My understanding also. I'm just thinking inside ZBS is not that different from power blocking. I may be wrong thinking this.

 

[thunderkyss]

My understanding also. I'm just thinking inside ZBS is not that different from power blocking. I may be wrong thinking this.

I think it’s about the rules the OL & RBs use to read & make blocks.

a lot more pulling guards, wham blocking & people generally know the FB’s name

 

[michaelm]

I said earlier that for the sake of consistency and Mill's development, it was imperative that Tim Kelly was retained, even though I agree Kelly was not a good OC.

Today I feel much better. I hadn't considered a scenario of Pep staying as OC. This will definitely help bridge the gap between old and new systems.

I also agree McCown would be good as QB coach.

 

[thunderkyss]

This will definitely help bridge the gap between old and new systems.

I hope there isn’t much of a gap. Hopefully they were at least using Hamilton’s terminology & framework at Stanford when Mills was there.

the rest of the team may need to catch up, but I hope Davis is adept at communicating Pep’s ideas in the huddle & at the LOS.

 

[vtech9]

I agree. But I've heard of ZBS broken down to include an "outside" ZBS, as opposed to...what? The question I have is, can you have a power running offense using zone blocking?

I prefer the outside ZBS with a little inside ZBS thrown in for short yardage. The outside ZBS is more effective with smaller more agile OLinemen, whereas the inside ZBS and power gap schemes work better with roadgraders.

 

[Number19]

I prefer the outside ZBS with a little inside ZBS thrown in for short yardage. The outside ZBS is more effective with smaller more agile OLinemen, whereas the inside ZBS and power gap schemes work better with roadgraders.

From reports today,, both Hamilton and Warhol coach a power running offense, which seems to imply the inside zone blocking. I had seen comments that Hamilton ran a power running offense and a zbs and was confused.. This reconciles these two seemingly contradictory positions.

 

[Number19]

I prefer the outside ZBS with a little inside ZBS thrown in for short yardage. The outside ZBS is more effective with smaller more agile OLinemen, whereas the inside ZBS and power gap schemes work better with roadgraders.

For the draft, I have been behind agile roadgrader OL'men picks. Looks like I can stay with my picks.

 

[vtech9]

For the draft, I have been behind agile roadgrader OL'men picks. Looks like I can stay with my picks.

Yeah, I'm disappointed. We pretty much need to upgrade the whole OLine now.

 

[wildroot]

How’s the old saying go….”Rome wasn’t built overnight”

in a day....

 

[steelbtexan]

With Pep now the OC, we may be using more ZBS, although his offense emphases power running as well.

Yep, think I'd the Stanford run game when Luck was there. Gotta add a couple of ol to have that type of run game though.

 

[steelbtexan]

Yeah, I'm disappointed. We pretty much need to upgrade the whole OLine now.

Not really, just the guards and a center wouldn't hurt either. I would draft either Neal or Ikwonu and put them at LG next to Tunsil then draft Salyer to play RG. I would then trade Tunsil in the 2023 off-season if I needed cap space.

 

[steelbtexan]

With that one change, our current OLine just got better. And as an extension of that, our running game got better as well. With an upgraded running game, defenses can't sell out to stop the passing game, so that should make Mills better as well. All of that makes the whole offense better. A better offense means the defense will have more time to rest in between series, which should make the defense better. That's a win all around in my book.

Now, this is all conjecture at this point. The team still has to buy into the change, and the magic word, execute.

The ZBS isn't some magic elixir. You still need to add talent to the ol and a RB that understands the scheme.

 

[vtech9]

Not really, just the guards and a center wouldn't hurt either. I would draft either Neal or Ikwonu and put them at LG next to Tunsil then draft Salyer to play RG. I would then trade Tunsil in the 2023 off-season if I needed cap space.

I still think we trade Tunsil. If we can get a 1st for him, we could get Neal and Ekwonu. I'd move Howard to LT, Neal to RT, and put Ekwonu at one of the OG spots.

 

[Toro Bravo]

I came across an interesting stat of the 2021 performance of Davis Mills and Tua Tagovailoa. They both played 13 games;
Mills - 2664 yds. 16 TD. 10 int. 66.75%. 88.8 rating.
Tua - 2653 yds. 16 TD. 10 int. 67.78%. 90.1 rating.

Considering Mills was a rookie and 3rd round pick and Tua was in his second year and of the same offense and a 1st round pick, I think Mills did very well.

 

[steelbtexan]

I came across an interesting stat of the 2021 performance of Davis Mills and Tua Tagovailoa. They both played 13 games;
Mills - 2664 yds. 16 TD. 10 int. 66.75%. 88.8 rating.
Tua - 2653 yds. 16 TD. 10 int. 67.78%. 90.1 rating.

Considering Mills was a rookie and 3rd round pick and Tua was in his second year and of the same offense and a 1st round pick, I think Mills did very well.

Plus Tua had Waddle, Giesecki etc... to throw too.

 

[Mangler]

I came across an interesting stat of the 2021 performance of Davis Mills and Tua Tagovailoa. They both played 13 games;
Mills - 2664 yds. 16 TD. 10 int. 66.75%. 88.8 rating.
Tua - 2653 yds. 16 TD. 10 int. 67.78%. 90.1 rating.

Considering Mills was a rookie and 3rd round pick and Tua was in his second year and of the same offense and a 1st round pick, I think Mills did very well.

The fact that Tua was drafted 5th overall while Mills was drafted 67th overall makes it so much sweeter.

By the way, you just pissed off a certain (delusional) group of people that believe Watson is incapable of doing anything wrong, lol. They don’t care for facts!

 

[Lucky]

By the way, you just pissed off a certain (delusional) group of people that believe Watson is incapable of doing anything wrong, lol. They don’t care for facts!

What? Where in @Toro Bravo 's post was there a reference to Watson?

 

[thunderkyss]

Considering Mills was a rookie and 3rd round pick and Tua was in his second year and of the same offense and a 1st round pick, I think Mills did very well.

I thought the only knock on Tua was his medicals. If healthy, he's supposed to be a good prospect, right?

 

[Lucky]

I thought the only knock on Tua was his medicals.

Some questioned his arm strength. His pocket poise. And his ability to fit the ball into tight spaces. Basically, the same issues he has in the NFL today.

 

[thunderkyss]

Some questioned his arm strength. His pocket poise. And his ability to fit the ball into tight spaces. Basically, the same issues he has in the NFL today.

But he was consensus 1st round pick right?

I mean coming out of college he still graded as a 1st rounder, better than the guys in this draft. I'm remembering the big question was the surgery on his hip.

He struggled his first season, common. He had a decent 2nd season. Similar to Davis Mills 1st season.

I'm sure there are people down on Tua's future. Likewise some are bullish.

 

[Lucky]

I mean coming out of college he still graded as a 1st rounder, better than the guys in this draft.

Reminded me of Matt Leinart. A ton of success with one of the best college teams assembled. When the talent level equaled out in the NFL, his flaws became apparent. That's how I see Tua's career unfold.

 

[thunderkyss]