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Could Troy Smith be better then VY?

xtruroyaltyx said:
If you are talking about college achievments, it's not even close....

Comparing one players junior season to another's senior season is fair how ?
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So no matter what a player does as a senior it can never be as good or better than someone who left after their junior year. Sorry--bad argument. It may be a factor but it isn't a trump card IMO.

PS--by that standard Matt Leinart clearly had a better college career than Vince Young.
 
infantrycak said:
PS--by that standard Matt Leinart clearly had a better college career than Vince Young.
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LOL...Well Duh....I think Career wise Matt had a way better career than VY...

I think Leinart is a better QB than VY....
 
infantrycak said:
So no matter what a player does as a senior it can never be as good or better than someone who left after their junior year.
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No...Im not saying that...Im just saying that you have to put it into perspective...

VY did more, as a Junior than Smith did as a junior...in the same year...

nothing more...nothing less...
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
No...Im not saying that...Im just saying that you have to put it into perspective...

VY did more, as a Junior than Smith did as a junior...in the same year...

nothing more...nothing less...
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FYI--what I was saying above and here is not specific to the VY or Smith debate.

I have a little bit of a hard time judging it that way just because I figure the guy that leaves early decided to abbreviate his career and decided I am mature enough now and will rest my case on what I have done so far. Certainly something to have in perspective but my thumb wouldn't be too heavy on one side of the scale.
 
infantrycak said:
I have a little bit of a hard time judging it that way just because I figure the guy that leaves early decided to abbreviate his career and decided I am mature enough now and will rest my case on what I have done so far.
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Thats true... if you are talking about overall college legacy...

but IMO, if you are talking about who the "better" player was....hmmm....

Well I guess "better" can be percieved in different ways...So I guess it's moot...
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Thats true... if you are talking about overall college legacy...

but IMO, if you are talking about who the "better" player was....hmmm....

Well I guess "better" can be percieved in different ways...So I guess it's moot...
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To make the whole thing moot on this specific example--VY and Smith will have had basically equal playing time in the end. VY played in 12 games as a RS freshman so basically played 2.5 seasons which is about what Smith is going to have. Is this just a situation where one guy RS'd and the other did not so the junior vs. senior distinction is pretty silly?
 
TexansSeminole said:
I'd rather have VY as my QB because he is a proven champion and I like his style more. He also seems to have the intangibles as his former teamates have talked about his leadership qualities.

Troy Smith wouldn't be too far behind but I need to see the conclusion of this season before I can really give him a chance at being someone I would rather have at QB than VY.

Also I wouldn't rather have any QB in the NCAA over VY.

Are you asking if he is a better prospect than what VY was last year?
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I'm much more familiar with Vince Young, and right now, I'd much rather have him on my team.

But I wouldn't feel I've got an inferior player, if I had to take TroySmith. I do have concern about his height, and his overall size, but the kid can play football, and is very impressive in his own right.

But I don't think he is near the athlete Vince is, and for me, his size is a big plus.

but that's me.
 
infantrycak said:
Is this just a situation where one guy RS'd and the other did not so the junior vs. senior distinction is pretty silly?
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Not in my opinion....

That's like a 25 yr old freshman being judged on the same level as Colt McCoy....

Maybe it's just me, but I don't really see the comparison...If one player has proven himself to be better in the same year, playing basically the same level of competition.....Im not really sure how the other player can leapfrog or claim to be better than the player that has already proven himself.....Especially if that player was good enough to leave early....

I don't even think it's about opinion at this point....VY was light years ahead of Troy Smith when he left...So how can he all of a sudden be worse than him??? IMO, Troy is going to have to wait until he gets in the NFL to say he's better than VY, because IMO, VY has already proved he was the better college player....Troy hasn't...To me it's as simple as that.....

And by the way....Troy Smith is a RS Senior...
http://ohiostatebuckeyes.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/smith_troy00.html
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Not in my opinion....

That's like a 25 yr old freshman being judged on the same level as Colt McCoy....

And by the way....Troy Smith is a RS Senior...
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The point was at the end of their college careers, regardless of what title you give them, they will have played QB about the same amount--2.5 years. That evens the playing field for saying what did you do in your 2.5 years IMO. I am not making a point at all that Smith is better than VY just that IMO the junior vs. senior argument is weak and really if you have to go there you have already lost the argument.

As for a 25 yr old freshman--last I checked they don't grade adjust for age. You pick the spot you want to be and live with it.
 
kastofsna said:
you. are. insane. russell SSUUUCCCKKKSSS.
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he doesn't suck. I brought his name up because he is built like a house and has a better arm than Young or Smith. He's not on their level, but on pure physical ability alone he is at least on their level. Unfortunatly, a lot of other factors make a good QB.
 
infantrycak said:
I am not making a point at all that Smith is better than VY just that IMO the junior vs. senior argument is weak and really if you have to go there you have already lost the argument.
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Well it get's kind of nit-picky at this point...

Because VY proved he was better than TS last year....He proved it....

Now you can speculate and guess that Troy will be the better pro, but that's all just an opinion....

All I'm saying is that in the same exact year...playing the same level competition, VY proved he was the best in the country, and it's not really fair to compare on players Senior yr. to anothers Junior yr. and say.."look how much better he is a passer than so and so"....Well wouldn't you expect him to be ? VY is competiting against NFL talent right now, and Troy Smith is playing college comp...I just don't see the argument....
 
Well we'll just have to agree to disagree as I don't see the junior vs. senior thing as very significant at all--heck the junior could be older than the senior. Really two different issues here which are getting mixed up--who had a better college career and who is a better pro prospect. For the former I give the junior no credit at all--you chose to end your college career, you don't get bonus points for something you intentionally skipped. For the pro-prospect--it really depends on the player and system whether another year would have made them a better pro-prospect. Prime example--Leinart probably benefited very little from his senior year. Judgment calls have to be made all the time comparing prospects--trying to judge across conferences and divisions seems far harder and more important than year--especially where the two players played the same amount.
 
kastofsna said:
you. are. insane. russell SSUUUCCCKKKSSS.
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He's looked pretty good to me. I believe if he were going to OhioState, & Troy Smith was going to LSU, you'd think differently.

xtruroyaltyx said:
All I'm saying is that in the same exact year...playing the same level competition, VY proved he was the best in the country,
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Didn't Troy Smith have to sit out last season??

But I agree, many people consider Vince to be the best College player ever, I haven't even heard that Troy Smith is the best anything yet. Best QB playing for Ohio State maybe.

In the pro's, I think he's going to compare more to JeffBlake than anyone else. & that's not a bad thing, Blake went from one bad team to another, he could've done some good things, had he gone to better teams.
 
thunderkyss said:
Didn't Troy Smith have to sit out last season??
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2005 (Junior): Sat out the opener against Miami (Ohio) ... came off the bench against Texas the following week and made his first start in week three against San Diego State ... was the regular from that point on ... averaged 263 yards per game in total offense ... also averaged 4.5 yards per rushing attempt and was the team's second leading rusher with 611 yards ... ran for a season-high 127 yards against Iowa ... the Buckeyes converted 49 percent of their third down possibilities with him at the controls ... became the first quarterback in OSU annals to run for 500 yards and throw for 2000 yards in the same season ... threw just four interceptions on the year ... had six 200-yard games passing ... threw for two or more touchdowns five times ... his 85-yard TD toss to Santonio Holmes in the Fiesta Bowl is the second longest touchdown pass in Ohio State history.
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http://ohiostatebuckeyes.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/smith_troy00.html
 
thunderkyss said:
He's looked pretty good to me. I believe if he were going to OhioState, & Troy Smith was going to LSU, you'd think differently.
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lol, what is that supposed to mean? LSU is one of the top 5 talented teams in the country. they're right there with OSU. and pretty much everyone agrees they're the most talented team top-to-bottom in the SEC. that's saying a lot.

and i don't care what program they go to. i watch the player. i see a clutch accurate guy who makes great decisions in troy smith; i see a boneheaded guy who is accurate deep but nowhere else on the field in jamarcus russell. who also happens to suck in games that matter.
 
Russell is the closest thing you'll see to a Daunte Culpepper clone. Problem is, you're going to take the bad with the good. But I like him though. Good kid that is keeping Ryan Periloser on the bench.
 
Huge said:
Russell is the closest thing you'll see to a Daunte Culpepper clone. Problem is, you're going to take the bad with the good. But I like him though. Good kid that is keeping Ryan Periloser on the bench.
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Yeah, Periloux was supposed to be the second coming of VY out of HS. That hasn't really panned out yet.
 
YoungTexanFan said:
No he shouldn't have. I remember calling him stupid when he committed there. It's still stupid.
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Well..I would'nt go that far...they have some good young talent. R.J. Jackson from Houston commited there also...he was a great player in high school, playing all sorts of positions. I think he had like 8 INTs a bunch of rushing and receiving yards. Also did kick returns and punt returns and had a real high number of touchdowns in all categories. He hasn't even played yet there. Seems like they have guys set up to come in one after the other at the skill positions at that school.

Periloux may not play until his junior or senior season, but he could easily do very well for that team. Same goes for R.J. Jackson in my opinion.
 
BattleRedToro said:
That should have read the Longhorns proved they were better than the Buckeyes. It takes more than Vince Young or Troy Smith to win OR lose games.
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Dude....Are you serious ???

So you are honestly going to try and lead me to believe Troy Smith was anything close to VY last year ?

C'mon...you can do better than that....:rolleyes:
 
Troy Smith this year may not be better than Colt McCoy this year, let alone VY last year.

I stole this from another thread from another board that another poster took from a blog. Confused yet? :)

Bob,

Knowing your penchant for ol' Colt McCoy - I had to pass along how his stats and record compare to a prominent Heisman candidate - gotta love stats!

In each of the categories below, compare Quarterback A's passing stats with those of Quarterback B's and try to determine if you know which one is Colt McCoy.

Pass Completions
QB A: 147
QB B: 145

Pass Attempts
QB A: 217
QB B: 214

Pass Yards
QB A: 1705
QB B: 1898

Completion %
QB A: 67.7%
QB B: 67.8%

Longest Completion
QB A: 62
QB B: 58

Passing Touchdowns
QB A: 24
QB B: 22

Interceptions Thrown
QB A: 4
QB B: 2

Most TDs thrown in single game
QB A: 6
QB B: 4

Times Sacked
QB A: 10
QB B: 8

In the above stats Colt McCoy is "Quarterback A" and, by the way, "Quarterback B" is the hands down Heisman favorite Troy Smith. Was it fair to just compare their passing stats? Of course not. The senior Buckeye has that extra dimension that separates himself from other top quarterbacks, including the freshman Lonhghorn. So, for full disclosure, below are rushing stats.

Rush Attempts
QB A: 55
QB B: 42

Rush Yards
QB A: 174
QB B: 169

Most rush yards in single game
QB A: 68
QB B: 54

Longest Rush
QB A: 33
QB B: 34

Rush Touchdowns
QB A: 1
QB B: 1

Once again, McCoy was "Quarterback A" and Smith was "Quarterback B."

I hope this helps explain why Smith will win the Heisman and McCoy will be fortunate to gain any conference honors that aren't preceded by the term "Freshman."

Either that or Colt McCoy needs to insist on being refered to as Heisman Candidate Colt McCoy rather than Redshirt Freshman Colt McCoy.

Now, Im not saying he should be considered, but that does make an argument for him...
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rmartin65 said:
Troy Smith plays in an offense somewhat like the NFL....

VY didn't....
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The Atlanta Falcons sent coaches to Austin to get a few pointers about the zone-read offense. They've used it in their offense this season.

If the Falcons are running an offense similar to what Texas runs and the Falcons are in the NFL, wouldn't that make the offense that Vince Young ran at Texas somewhat like an NFL offense?
 
BattleRedToro said:
I haven't seen VY take over a football game, either. Every game of VY's I have seen his team's defense had to play as well.
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Are you saying all players are equal because everybody plays with teammates that contribute towards winning the game as well?
 
Huge said:
Troy Smith this year may not be better than Colt McCoy this year, let alone VY last year.

Bob,

Knowing your penchant for ol' Colt McCoy - I had to pass along how his stats and record compare to a prominent Heisman candidate - gotta love stats!

In each of the categories below, compare Quarterback A's passing stats with those of Quarterback B's and try to determine if you know which one is Colt McCoy.

Pass Completions
QB A: 147
QB B: 145

Pass Attempts
QB A: 217
QB B: 214

Pass Yards
QB A: 1705
QB B: 1898

Completion %
QB A: 67.7%
QB B: 67.8%

Longest Completion
QB A: 62
QB B: 58

Passing Touchdowns
QB A: 24
QB B: 22

Interceptions Thrown
QB A: 4
QB B: 2

Most TDs thrown in single game
QB A: 6
QB B: 4

Times Sacked
QB A: 10
QB B: 8

In the above stats Colt McCoy is "Quarterback A" and, by the way, "Quarterback B" is the hands down Heisman favorite Troy Smith. Was it fair to just compare their passing stats? Of course not. The senior Buckeye has that extra dimension that separates himself from other top quarterbacks, including the freshman Lonhghorn. So, for full disclosure, below are rushing stats.

Rush Attempts
QB A: 55
QB B: 42

Rush Yards
QB A: 174
QB B: 169

Most rush yards in single game
QB A: 68
QB B: 54

Longest Rush
QB A: 33
QB B: 34

Rush Touchdowns
QB A: 1
QB B: 1

Once again, McCoy was "Quarterback A" and Smith was "Quarterback B."

I hope this helps explain why Smith will win the Heisman and McCoy will be fortunate to gain any conference honors that aren't preceded by the term "Freshman."

Either that or Colt McCoy needs to insist on being refered to as Heisman Candidate Colt McCoy rather than Redshirt Freshman Colt McCoy.

Now, Im not saying he should be considered, but that does make an argument for him...
Click to expand...

I stole this from another thread from another board that another poster took from a blog. Confused yet? :)
Click to expand...


I just had to re-post this....:ohsnap:
 
BattleRedToro said:
The implication here is obvious. It is that Vince Young won a game single-handedly. This is patently false and demeaning to the contributions of the other players and coaches of his team. I would also like to note that it is VY's fans and not VY that makes these kind of ridiculous statements. That is one thing I must say about VY. He has always presented himself in a very humble way in interviews.
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Excellent post. VY is probably above the adoration exaggeration many of his fans give him and would recognize simple things like the play stopping USC's last drive was just as important to the win as his last run. Who made that tackle?--must have been VY because he won the game.
 
BattleRedToro said:
No, I'm not saying that all players are equal, but I find it very irritating to totally discount an entire unit's performance by the assertion that a single player " took over" a game. The implication here is obvious. It is that Vince Young won a game single-handedly. This is patently false and demeaning to the contributions of the other players and coaches of his team. I would also like to note that it is VY's fans and not VY that makes these kind of ridiculous statements. That is one thing I must say about VY. He has always presented himself in a very humble way in interviews.
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I think it's the exact opposite....

I have not seen one single post where someone has said that VY won that game "all by himself"...but I have seen several post where VY detractors have tried to diminish what he did....Just because people choose to aknowledge VY's effort doesn't mean they don't recognize the efforts of the whole team...

That was one of the single greatest individual performances by a player in college football history....It is comments like yours that detract away from that....Again....I haven't seen ONE SINGLE post where someone has said he did it all by himself....have you ?

BattleRedToro said:
No, I'm not saying that all players are equal, but I find it very irritating to totally discount an entire unit's performance by the assertion that a single player " took over" a game. The implication here is obvious. It is that Vince Young won a game single-handedly.
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obvious???

That's all in your head buddy.....

VY DID take over the game...how you get that he won it by himself I'm clueless???

Just because someone doesn't point out what every individual player did or didn't do doesn't mean that they think he did it "all by himslef"....

Question: Who do people recognize and talk about when they think about the Patriots Super Bowl wins??????????????????????????????.......................................TB and AV.........Why????..........because of last minute drives.....and last minute field goals......and AV is a frickin' kicker......
 
As for the stats compating Colt to Troy Smith...so what, both are going to have a better year passing the ball then VY ever did.
 
BattleRedToro said:
No, I'm not saying that all players are equal, but I find it very irritating to totally discount an entire unit's performance by the assertion that a single player " took over" a game. The implication here is obvious. It is that Vince Young won a game single-handedly. This is patently false and demeaning to the contributions of the other players and coaches of his team. I would also like to note that it is VY's fans and not VY that makes these kind of ridiculous statements. That is one thing I must say about VY. He has always presented himself in a very humble way in interviews.
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infantrycak said:
Excellent post. VY is probably above the adoration exaggeration many of his fans give him and would recognize simple things like the play stopping USC's last drive was just as important to the win as his last run. Who made that tackle?--must have been VY because he won the game.
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As it's been pointed out, nobody has said VY won the game all by himself. "Taking over a game" is a figure of speech. Even at his best, Michael Jordan never won a game "single-handedly" because he wasn't going to play defense against 5 opposing players at the other end of the court. But are you willing to admit that at times he elevated his game (another figure of speech) to where it was obvious that he was playing at a level much higher than everybody else on the court?

This is what VY did on a few occasions during his collegiate career. Most notably, in the most important game of this past season. If you were unable to recognize that, you either lack the ability to do so or you're biased and are unwilling to admit to it.

And as of yet, Troy Smith has not had a game(s) similar to what Young did during his career in college. Or maybe I'm just lacking the ability to recognize it or I'm biased against Smith (I'm not) and I just haven't noticed. But if anybody could point out such a performance by Smith, I'd like to see it.
 
Hoth-Boy said:
As for the stats compating Colt to Troy Smith...so what, both are going to have a better year passing the ball then VY ever did.
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Kliff Kingsbury
Andre Ware
David Klingler
Sonny Combie
BJ Symons

All had better years passing the ball than VY ever did.

See where I'm going with this?
 
Huge said:
As it's been pointed out, nobody has said VY won the game all by himself.
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I have heard numerous people make such statements.

But are you willing to admit that at times he elevated his game (another figure of speech) to where it was obvious that he was playing at a level much higher than everybody else on the court?
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Nothing to admit (except I have a problem with your phrasing)--I have said several times VY's performance in the Rose Bowl was one of the best individual performances of all time in college ball. I do have a problem with your phrasing and with they way people define things in saying it was much higher than everybody else. Leinart for instance had a fantastic game as well--his game didn't get worse because Lendale White got stopped and on the flip side VY's game would not have been lessor of White had not been stopped. Neither of them played a role on the play which undoubtedly was pivotal for the game--White's 4th down attempt.
 
infantrycak said:
I have said several times VY's performance in the Rose Bowl was one of the best individual performances of all time in college ball.
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That's all that matters

infantrycak said:
Neither of them was on the field for a play which undoubtedly was pivotal for the game.
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Well, actually they were....Had they gotten that yard on 4th down, that would have pretty much sealed the deal....

They didn't....

It wasn't really about their overall performance at that point...It was about making the plays when they counted...VY(and his teamates--just throwing that in for your satisfaction) did...
 
Teams win championships.

Texas won.

VY was the best player on the winning team & the MVP but TEXAS won the game.
 
bah007 said:
Teams win championships.

Texas won.

VY was the best player on the winning team & the MVP but TEXAS won the game.
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I just think it's odd that I never hear this discussion come up, when people talk about Tom Brady's late game heroics.....

Tom Brady was the face of those superbowls....VY was the face of that championship...period...
 
Answer me this question & you will have your answer to this thread.

Vince Young is considered to be one of the best college QBs of all time (ESPN said this & they hate Texas).

He became the only player in the history of football to have 1000 rushing & 3000 passing in the same season.

VY was the #3 pick in the NFL Draft. Do you even think Smith will be a first rounder? I dont.
If you seriously think that Troy Smith will ever be considered as one of the greatest of all time then your answer is yes. If not then...
 
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