Several? How do you define several?It's been determined by several TT posters that a surrounding cast isn't needed for success. It's all on the QB's shoulders.
Sink or swim.
CJ Stroud Success Level (Mark it down)
- Thread starter BattleRedBlud
- Start date
Dave is infamous for a number of dubious accomplishments.
Seahawks Let One Slip Away -- Krieg's Record-Setting 107Th Career Fumble Helps 49Er Comeback
Toro Bravo
Rookie
It's a tough business.It's been determined by several TT posters that a surrounding cast isn't needed for success. It's all on the QB's shoulders.
Sink or swim.
Look at Minshew.
He came into a bad Jaguars team in 2019.
They finished 5-11 the previous season.
Minshew went 6-6 (WL), throwing for 21TDs vs 6 Ints, also adding 344 yards on the ground.
Foles went 0-4, with 3TDs vs 2 Ints.
The number one receiver was DJ Chalk, who could never replicate that 73-catch year.
The Oline ranked 26th
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season
Then came 2020.
Minshew went 1-7 despite throwing for 16 TDs vs 5 Ints.
Still no weapon.
The Jaguars finished 1-15 with the Defense ranking 31st in both points and yards.
Guess what happened?
The Jaguars drafted Lawrence and shipped Minshew out.
Mills was nowhere efficient as Minshew was.
He deserves no excuse.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
Jags were tanking in 2020. They didn’t give Minshew a fair chance.
Minshew is like a video game. He runs around & extends plays. That's not Foles' game. That's not what I hoped Mills would be. So I don't think this is a good comparison.
I want a QB who can sit in the pocket & make the plays when they are there. I don't know that Minshew is that guy, or could be that guy. I don't think the Jags thought he could be that guy.
That was what I meant.
It's a tough business.
It doesn't matter what you want.
Why do you think they took Stroud with the second pick?
Because they think Mills can be that guy?
But if you want comparison, look at Mike Glennon.
His rookie numbers were better than Mills.
His Oline was ranked 24th by PFF (you're not gonna like any name on that unit).
His top two RBs averaged 3.9 and 3.6 ypc.
Neither was a weapon out of the backfield either.
His number one receiver Vincent Jackson totaled 73 catches (the most in his career).
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/tam/2013.htm
He only started 5 games in his second year. He had much better number than old man Josh McCown.
If you prorate the numbers, again, it's better than Mills'.
Glennon is a pocket passer.
But the Buccs didn't think he was the guy either and brought in Winston the following year.
It's a tough business.
I'm thinking it's because they want a pocket passer. Someone who can operate an offense as designed.
I don't think Minshew is that guy. I think the league is saying Minshew isn't that guy. He can play. But not the kind of guy you build around.
Texansballer74
The Marine
The Pocket passer is becoming extinct, a thing of the past. Quarterbacks need to be able to extend plays with their feet, get the ball out quickly and accurately. Throw in all the other attributes.
Defensive lineman and linebackers are getting faster. DC are getting slicker with their schemes.
Defensive lineman and linebackers are getting faster. DC are getting slicker with their schemes.
The Jags took Lawrence because they thought he's the better QB.
Same with the Texans; they took Stroud because they thought he's a better QB.
Both Stroud and Mills are pocket passers mostly. But Stroud maneuvers the pocket better.
Boris
All Pro
and throws a better ball
sigh....
Texansballer74
The Marine
And isn’t scared to take off running when need be.
The Panthers took Cam Newton ahead of a bunch of pocket passers.
The Niners took Lance instead of Mac Jones, and even though they already had Jimmy G.
Whether the QB is a pocket passer or not was irrelevant to those HCs.
They just took the guy they thought is the better QB.
The Bears also favored Fields over Mac Jones.
Which point are you trying to refute?
Surely not these?
I'm not trying to refute or to do anything.
These HC/OCs will do whatever they think is good .
Sometimes, a lot of times, I think it's best to succcumb to the notion that it's all entertainment.
I loved Minshew's game when he was playing at Washington State for Mike Leach. He should probably be the starter in Indy. I think they made a mistake taking Richardson.
And still do.
Quarterbacks need pocket awareness so they can step up, back, to the side, etc., to both extend the play while still remaining in the pocket for an extra second or two to then execute a completion or throw it away. Running quarterbacks are great...until they get injured. Of course, QB's sitting in the pocket also suffer injuries. If I had to choose, I'll take the QB with pocket awareness over good running ability.
Texansballer74
The Marine
They get hurt just as much standing tall and doing that in the pocket as well. It’s football. But like I stated, that brand you like is becoming extinct.
It would be interesting to see a study on that.
Just to be clear, having mobility as a QB is a GOOD thing. I think we can differentiate between a QB that has mobility and a QB that can flat out run the ball, like Justin Fields, Lamar Jackson, Jalen Hurts, etc..
How many Super Bowl-winning QB's were also great at running the ball? Very few (if any) QB's can be the protypical NFL QB while also possessing the freakish ability to be outstanding at running the ball.
Guys that can beat you from the pocket are the guys that have been winning all the Super Bowls.
OptimisticTexan
2023 / Rebuilding Block 3 / Go Texans
To me, the NFL should be careful with the idea that the QB will be the secret weapon within the offense….as a runner and passer.
The most effective offense in the long run should feature an up-tempo passing game, but must have a stable of RB’s who keep defenses honest. Strong TE’s and a zone busting SWR can keep their QB’s in the pocket and clean as well. Of course….a strong OL is what makes all this happen.
The most effective offense in the long run should feature an up-tempo passing game, but must have a stable of RB’s who keep defenses honest. Strong TE’s and a zone busting SWR can keep their QB’s in the pocket and clean as well. Of course….a strong OL is what makes all this happen.
QBs with mobility don't exclude the ability to maneuver around the pocket and the ability to scramble around to buy time to throw.
We're not (or at least I don't) talk about true dual-threat QBs.
In the old days, Roger Staubach was as close to a dual-threat QB that is also great at throwing the ball.
He had had seasons with 300 plus yards on the ground (high 343 yards with 10 starts).
I'm sure he can gain more on the ground if he simply decided to run more.
Another great one was Steve Young, who might have been a better runner.
So, yeah, this type of QBs can win the big games.
Many QBs that won the SBs were mobile; they just didn't want to not use all the weapons on the field.
And that was because they are also great passers.
Elway had wheels.
So did Tarkenton, Montana (deceptive), and many more.
Mahomes has some wheels; Josh Allen has wheels, Russell Wilson and many more.
But they're also great passers.
Exactly. In fact, when was the last time a running QB got injured running? I can't recall.
Because Hannah values marketing over anything else. Should've brought in Minshew and waited until 2024 to draft a QB.
True, but if you cant operate from the pocket you're not going to win championships.
For the Texans org it really is all about the show and very little substance.
Yep, Burrow/Herbert/Rodgers/Geno/Pudy etc... are becoming extinct.
Tell me how many of the run 1st QB's have won championships? I'll wait....
You might want to go check the Ravens game logs for the past couple of seasons.
I love mobile QB'S as long as they can do both. How many QB'S with elite running skills have won Super Bowls? Steve Young? I don't remember.
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The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I mean, define "elite."
Staubach, Elway, Young, Wilson?
But that's definitely arguable. Of those, I'd say only Staubach and Wilson were running qbs when they won theirs.
Most of the guys I would consider elite running QBs have have not won a SB: Vick, Cunningham, Jackson, Newton, Hurts, Fields.
But like I said, you can get sucked down a rabbit hole on definitions and semantics on this.
I don't know how we got to elite running QBs, but in the old days , didn't they run a lot more than today?
Even when they didn't run a lot, some of them were known as skilled at running the ball, like Bart Starr who had a 5.8ypc career average. Was there a great RB that ever came close to that?
In the semi-modern day, Steve Young was even better at 5.9ypc.
Both Len Dawson and Elway had a healthy 4.4ypc career average.
Staubach and Wilson were both at 5.5 and Newton was at 5.0
Anyhow, many QBs that were considered elite at running had won the SB like I mentioned: Elway, Staubach, Young, Wilson, Newton.
And many more had gone to the big game, from McNair to McNabb.
On the other hand, many great pocket passers, despite their gaudy numbers, never won one; the likes of Marino and Fouts.
Lucky for Andy Reid that he finally won a SB or two; otherwise he'd be crucified for having so many dumb running QBs.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
It depends on how far back you go.
If you get into the 40's and 50's, they were basically not throwers, but they were field generals, calling all their own plays and distributing the ball. In the pros, by the 60's, QBs didn't run much. Guys like Bobby Douglass who were run-first, pass-second were anomalies.
I don't remember Bart Starr as a running QB. He was a pocket passer who would scramble and run when things broke down, and he was a master of the sneak. He had a couple of seasons with some insane rushing yards, though. Would he be an elite runner? I don't know.
Staubach, Elway, and Young were guys I remember coming into the league as athletes more than quarterbacks. But by the time Elway and Young won their SBs, they were older and weren't relying on their legs as much as they had been when they were younger.
sprtsfanatic
Veteran
Id have to disagree w/ your assessment of young and elway. They both rushed a ton and especially near the endzone in their older years when they couldnt find an open man. Young had multiple cuncussions (not reported back then) and do you not remember the Elway helicopter at the goal line in the superbowl??
Elway was still very active on the ground during the year he first won a SB.
In the second, it was probably because the success of T. Davis that Elway didn't feel the need as much as his age told him.
He still scored TD on the ground in both wins though.
As for Young, he was still very active, especially in the playoff.
Look up his playoff run.
You could say he was bigger on the ground than in the air for the first two games.
In the SB, Young was the game leading rusher; can you believe it?
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I remember Elway's Helicopter but... if someone is running 3x a game and getting less than 15 yards a game, is that really "rushing a ton"? Even early in his career, he wasn't running that much.
Young's a harder call. He was getting 30 yards a game on less than 5 rushes a game.
Is that "elite"? You can be elite at running the ball (which they both were) but still not run a lot. To me, you have to put in enough attempts so that it's a big part of your game.
sprtsfanatic
Veteran
point taken...Elway had a cannon for an arm but was still a great scrambling qb. Both extended plays w/ their legs with the best of them
Ben Roethlisberger won TWO Super Bowls and my mom could run better than him.
And then there’s Tom…..
Defense is almost always ahead of the offense 2 days in... chill
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
Young is the 6th all time rushing qb. Elway 11.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
You shouldn’t put much stock in reports like this. It’s the 3rd day of camp. They haven’t even put pads on yet.
All the good defensive plays are against Davis Mills.
No contact allowed yet so the Olinemen can't hold on to the pass rushers when they got beat.
