travfrancis
Waterboy
glad to see some of the most respected posters on this forum hold the same belief that i do.
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Bush to Texans... Young to Titans
- Thread starter Hookem Horns
- Start date
Some of you need to calm down and think for a minute. The Texans have yet to even hire a head coach. They're going to need the head coach's input and talk over offensive philosophy before they can even seriously discuss personnel requirements, or who they are going to take in the draft.
On top of that, Bob McNair doesn't have his head in the sand to the point where he doesn't recognize the business and marketing significance of bringing Vince Young to Houston.
C'mon! This is Chris Mortenson, for God's sake.
Hasn't anyone heard of trial balloons?
On top of that, Bob McNair doesn't have his head in the sand to the point where he doesn't recognize the business and marketing significance of bringing Vince Young to Houston.
C'mon! This is Chris Mortenson, for God's sake.
Hasn't anyone heard of trial balloons?
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
pv1999 said:
They are both better than Major.
edo783
Hall of Fame
Me, I HOPE it is true and all the whinning BS'es moves over to the Titanics board and we can get back to actually discussing the Texans and what they are doing and not the flavor of the week saviour who has the cure for cancer and walks on water. Damn I am tired of all this.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Hulk75 said:
It is statements like this that should put everyone on the same page. We should not be paying a QB first pick money if he is not good enough to make a difference. We can pay someone league minimum and get the same results.
pv1999
Waterboy
edo783 said:
Then Logoff.
Go play some golf, Go to the Park and feed the pigeons. I love it.
We have struggled through the season from hell so we could debate who we would take if we could have anybody. Carr deserves a chance to be successful elsewhere before he gets too old, kinda reminds me of Reggie White who had never won a championship on any level of football until the Superbowl. Carr has been good for us but we owe him to let him go. He won't win here. That means a franchise QB makes since, so its a good idea to get excited about him. Now I don't know about water in to wine or any of that other stuff but if he can give us more wins than Bud's Team, He is worth every minute.
I've never seen someone like VY take so much pride in where he is from and show the amount of kleadership he posses on the field. He's a natural born leader and that isn't something you learn how to be , its just something your born with. Carr might have the potential to be great but Vy is already great and basically they would be learning a whole new Offensive Scheme. I know Carr's got the NFL experience but I realistically don't see us heading to the playoffs this year and I'm sure there will still be O-line problems that will be much of the continuing topic of discussions on the message board. Why not pick VY up so at least he can make things happen with his instints until the new Offensive Scheme is learned and the problem with the O-line takes care of its self. We have all been waiting for the potential long enough in Houston and if we continue to base players on their potential then it's a fact that VY coming out as a Junior rather DC coming out as a senior has more potential than that of DC currently. That's the truth and it's clear to see. Leaders (VY)are born not molded (DC)!
aj. said:
I attempted to say this about Carr a year or so ago only to be met with this of excuses. At some point if Carr was special he would have made a way.
Can Carr look like a good NFL Qb if you put him behind a really good line, give him a quality RB, two or three above average WRs, and coach who understand what he does well? Of course. Then again there are 50 guys floating around the NFL I could say that about.
I've been for trading down all along, but Vince Young sure has me thinking a little differently now.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
aj. said:
This is so right it is scary.
aj. said:
This too hits the mark.
2006 is both the grand opportunity and gift, and also the perfect storm. Us with the top pick. Hometown hero, and in my belief, the best player in the draft possibly available. (And if there were a post bowl recount of the Heisman, those voters would be agreeing too). New Orleans, right down the street and with eyes on San Antonio with the second pick, and the evil in-conference nemesis, the Titanhicks with the 3rd pick.
Personally, I have never been sold on the Bush pick but was OK with it unless we got a blockbuster deal.
VY in a Texans uniform would benefit us:
1. On the field. He is such a competitor, I could never bet against him. Just as a shorthand comment, Mike Vick was taken with the first pick in 2001--VY has better college stats and a better NFL body. People claiming VY as the first pick is a reach, I do not understand.
2. In the clubhouse: VY obviously has a lot of personal charisma. I think he would be a good addition in that regard.
3.. In marketing. He would put people in the seats--this matters to winning because it gives us a better home field advantage. If we do the "unpopular but 'right' thing"--maybe it works or maybe it doesn't, but it doesn't help to p.o. the casual fan. We pick up VY, we are instantly the coolest team in the league. We need some of that.
4. In preventing VY from going somewhere else. He'd be popular in New Orleans and make me weep in TN. A QB touches every snap on offense--VY doing that for TN kills me more than Bush doing the same over there.
I have to say that I am not a big Carr detractor like some, and think he might end up being good under a new system with better players around but maybe not. Who knows? Carr might do better with a new start somewhere else without the "HEB don't like sacks" baggage, instead of trying to prove himself better than the hometown hero QB who ended up in N.O. or gag, TN. People talk about the pressure that VY would have in Houston--it would be nothing like the pressure Carr would be faced with in facing a VY led TN twice a year.
Seriously, I feel so strongly about it that I've been praying to God every night to get VY to the Texans. Praying about the NFL draft for pete's sake! I've never ever felt so strongly about a draft pick in any sport ever. At the risk of blaspheming and whatnot, I don't think God pays much attention to the NFL, but if He does, He is giving Houston a gift at VY at #1 and we should appreciate the blessings we have been provided.
Bongo59
Waterboy
salary cap woes are over..........after Mac deal is redone we will be 19 million under.............nice try..............now take Bush so we can make it truly hurt the next 15 yrs.................Carr deserves a chance with new coaching and a new OL but i think his contract make this a toughie to swollow.................I'd get him to cut his deal right now or just cut him.................you guys cant afford to trade him because it would kill your 06 cap to do soLucky said:
Htown34s
Waterboy
It all boils down to this:
If McNair passes on Vince but the Titans don't, and Vince has success in the NFL, then Bob McNair will have wasted $1 Billion dollars for nothing. I predict a backlash toward the Texans that could cripple this franchise until McNair is forced to sell or move.
Sorry, just the way I see it.
If McNair passes on Vince but the Titans don't, and Vince has success in the NFL, then Bob McNair will have wasted $1 Billion dollars for nothing. I predict a backlash toward the Texans that could cripple this franchise until McNair is forced to sell or move.
Sorry, just the way I see it.
Bongo59
Waterboy
............Mr Simms has looked pretty good this yr friend..............i think Mack Brown and his Offensive staff had more do do with stunting Simms development given how he has blossomed under Gruden............................VY young is a runner so it is hard to screw him up when he pulls it down when he cant find his progressions or read a D........................pv1999 said:
Most of you have made very good cases for VY and have supported him all along. Like I said before, I respect that opinion. This is what I would say to that.
1) The number one pick is important for YOUR franchise. I don't care who the Titans will pick. I don't care where Vincent Young or Reggie Bush are from. The number one pick should be the ultimate meritocracy. Some of you have made good arguments for Young on that point and some of you still seem stuck on the fact that he's from Houston and would go to the Titans.
2) Being the highest rated passer in college football doesn't mean you will succeed at the next level as a passer. Michael Vick was the number one rated passer his last season in college and he isn't a good passer. I'm not saying Young will be another Vick, but the fact that he was the highest rated passer is not PROOF of anything except for the fact that he was the best college QB this season. You will get no argument from me on that front.
3) "The first QB to pass for 2500 yards and run for 1000 yards." This is what my wife would call "random *** stats." I could find guys that passed for 3000 yards and maybe ran for 700 or 800. He's a great double threat and we'll leave it at that.
However, the body of work was great. I have a couple of concerns about Young though:
1) He did have a few down games (like A&M) where defenses were able to game plan for him. USC could game plan all they wanted, but they didn't have the players as proven by bad games against Notre Dame and Fresno State. Bush had a "down" game, but for him a down game was nearly five yards per carry and nearly 100 yards recieving. Overall, it wasn't what people expected, but it shows that neither player is Superman.
2) Young made good reads in the title game but some of his throws weren't that good. Yes, he went 30 for 40, but there were a lot of times that he threw off-target throws that were caught low to the ground or otherwise off target. Those players were wide open. They won't be wide open like that at the next level.
3) Realistically, we could expect Young to take a couple of years to adapt to the NFL. He took a couple of years to adapt to the NCAA, so we can reasonably expect the same at the next level. Running backs usually make an immediate impact. I like Bush because of his versatility. However, I recognize there are durability concerns with him as well.
Overall, even though it might seem I'm being negative, I would not be unhappy if we selected either player. It's a coin flip in my mind and I pick Bush for the reasons I elaborated on. Since it's a coin flip you can certainly offer very compelling reasons why you think Young is the guy. However, I think it is misrepresentation to say the Texans would be making an OBVIOUS mistake by passing on Young. We're a better team with either in my opinion.
1) The number one pick is important for YOUR franchise. I don't care who the Titans will pick. I don't care where Vincent Young or Reggie Bush are from. The number one pick should be the ultimate meritocracy. Some of you have made good arguments for Young on that point and some of you still seem stuck on the fact that he's from Houston and would go to the Titans.
2) Being the highest rated passer in college football doesn't mean you will succeed at the next level as a passer. Michael Vick was the number one rated passer his last season in college and he isn't a good passer. I'm not saying Young will be another Vick, but the fact that he was the highest rated passer is not PROOF of anything except for the fact that he was the best college QB this season. You will get no argument from me on that front.
3) "The first QB to pass for 2500 yards and run for 1000 yards." This is what my wife would call "random *** stats." I could find guys that passed for 3000 yards and maybe ran for 700 or 800. He's a great double threat and we'll leave it at that.
However, the body of work was great. I have a couple of concerns about Young though:
1) He did have a few down games (like A&M) where defenses were able to game plan for him. USC could game plan all they wanted, but they didn't have the players as proven by bad games against Notre Dame and Fresno State. Bush had a "down" game, but for him a down game was nearly five yards per carry and nearly 100 yards recieving. Overall, it wasn't what people expected, but it shows that neither player is Superman.
2) Young made good reads in the title game but some of his throws weren't that good. Yes, he went 30 for 40, but there were a lot of times that he threw off-target throws that were caught low to the ground or otherwise off target. Those players were wide open. They won't be wide open like that at the next level.
3) Realistically, we could expect Young to take a couple of years to adapt to the NFL. He took a couple of years to adapt to the NCAA, so we can reasonably expect the same at the next level. Running backs usually make an immediate impact. I like Bush because of his versatility. However, I recognize there are durability concerns with him as well.
Overall, even though it might seem I'm being negative, I would not be unhappy if we selected either player. It's a coin flip in my mind and I pick Bush for the reasons I elaborated on. Since it's a coin flip you can certainly offer very compelling reasons why you think Young is the guy. However, I think it is misrepresentation to say the Texans would be making an OBVIOUS mistake by passing on Young. We're a better team with either in my opinion.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
good post Barzilla
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
barzilla said:
If you believe, like I do, that a VY coming out would be the best player in the draft, you do not want such a player to go to the Titanhicks. In division. Horrible deluxe, and you can't ignore that. QB touches every offensive snap. (as opposed to however the heck number of times you are supposed to use Bush).
But that being said, and with me thinking VY IS the best choice no matter where he was from........
As much as some want this to be just a input in, output out kinda decision--put in the data, spit out a result--you cannot ignore the emotion that would be felt if VY becomes a flaming meatball in TN. Trying to make this a strictly, what would Mr. Spock do decision can't work--football is played in front of human beings, it ain't just Madden, and we need our casual fans to be really cool with what we do.
Nice try, but there would only be about a $750K difference in the cap between trading Carr or keeping him.Bongo59 said:
Here's a story from the world's sports leader on McNair's contract status. McNair seems confident that he can play another 3 or 4 years.
If the Titans kept McNair & drafted Vince, they'd likely have over $70 million invested in the QB position over the next 4-5 years. If they are out of cap hell, they'd be right back in with that kind of cap management.
CyberTexan
Waterboy
after the rose bowl I too like many of you had 2nd thoughts on picking Bush or Young but after thinking about it long and hard and reading every piece of info I could find I have to say everything points to picking Bush that is the best choice by far . You have to keep in mind Youngs performance was against the 39th ranked defense , if you think about the games he had against A&M and Oklahoma to name a couple it wasnt near as good actually almost dissaster . Young wont be able to play like the rose bowl game against the NFL theres no way . Look at Vick sure he wins for that team sometimes but he gets hurt alot and for long periods of time and he has never taken that team to the big game and Vick is alot faster than Young . Picking Young will be like starting over too will take 2 or 3 years at least to develope where as Bush will be an imediate help not only as a HB but as a WR too wouldnt it be nice to have Bush and Davis sharing the running duties plus having Bush as another WR threat. So in my mind Bush is still the right way to go. I dont think our team is that bad as we are sure we need some help here and there but I think it was just poorly coached and they underachieved .
TD
Super Bowl Mascot
Htown34s said:
Same could be said if it went just the opposite and Bush has a great career for the Titans and Vince is a bust for the Texans.
IMO there are THREE great choices for the number one pick and it would be hard to fault the Texans for taking any one of them. But if we're gonna keep Carr, then Bush is the way to go.
Bongo59
Waterboy
....................maybe you should read this then.................http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/titanscentral/vpost?id=841365Lucky said:
scourge
Digression King
I am not a big fan of college football. Not a big fan of High School football. Dont care about Longhorns or Aggies. If I cared about hometown heroes would've been going hysterical for the Texans to pick up Clint Stoerner, Rocky Bernard, or saying don't worry, there's always Drew Tate next year, etc. And I think David Carr could easily be a pro bowl qb... in the right system.
Having said that, the Texans entire front office is absolutely retarded if they don't pick Vince Young. Other than clips on SportsCenter, I've never watched an entire game of college football in my life until that Rose Bowl. And Ive watched it twice now. VY has the skills and more importantly the leadership qualities this team deparately needs. If I thought for a second that Bush could actually run between tackles at the NFL level(which he can't seem to do at the college level), then I wouldn't care which one we chose. But VY's record, stats, and leadership are too good to pass up, no matter how much it may cost to dump Carr.
Having said that, the Texans entire front office is absolutely retarded if they don't pick Vince Young. Other than clips on SportsCenter, I've never watched an entire game of college football in my life until that Rose Bowl. And Ive watched it twice now. VY has the skills and more importantly the leadership qualities this team deparately needs. If I thought for a second that Bush could actually run between tackles at the NFL level(which he can't seem to do at the college level), then I wouldn't care which one we chose. But VY's record, stats, and leadership are too good to pass up, no matter how much it may cost to dump Carr.
Htown34s
Waterboy
scourge said:
Scourge, if you liked that game then you owe it to yourself to watch last years Rose Bowl against Michigan and this years game at Ohio State. Of course, you can watch any Longhorn game from the last two years, VY does the same thing every single game. He is incredible.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Marcus said:D'yup! Having Vince Young as backup should make the Titans real cap-happy to say the least.
I heard somewhere, and yes it is hearsay, that McNair would be released and resigned and that somehow the cap hit would not be significant. Can anyone corroborate that?
my dream scenario is to have the Titans trade up with us to get Young(giving us their 1st and 2nd this year..and 2nd next year)...then the saints take Matt Lienart, and we get Reggie Bush and the 2 2nd rounders.
Dunno if someone already mentioned this scenario in this thread.. i imagine they probably have.. but that would rock so much in needs to be repeated
Dunno if someone already mentioned this scenario in this thread.. i imagine they probably have.. but that would rock so much in needs to be repeated
The Texans better not draft Bush without even considering Young unless they want to alienate all Longhorn fans forever. Personally, I don't think Bush is the kind of player you waste a number one first pick in the draft draft choice on.
If I were the Texans' GM (Casserly should be replaced BTW) I would trade down and get some O-line help.
It doesn't matter who your skill position players are if you can't block anyone.
If I were the Texans' GM (Casserly should be replaced BTW) I would trade down and get some O-line help.
It doesn't matter who your skill position players are if you can't block anyone.
see.. thats not right. This is the NFL, not College Footbal Part 2. If you are a Texans fan.. BE a Texans fan. You can disagree with the decisions, but boycotting the team because they didnt make "YOUR" pick, that just aint right. Sometimes what is best for the team isnt what you want.
Magnahorn said:
The priorities of the Texans should be in this order:
1) Don't alienate Longhorn fans
2) Hire a new head coach
3) Hire new coordinators
4) Discuss offensive and defensive philosophy
5) Draft the players who will help the team win
But always remember No.1 . . . don't alienate any Longhorn fans.
:brickwall Christ! I'm gonna be sick!
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Vinny said:
That's a legitimate concern. I just hope that the change of coaches and systems does what it's expected to do and David Carr starts looking like the QB he was expected to be. Since I've come down strongly on the side of "It's the coaches" I'm still firmly in the Reggie Bush camp. I think Vince needs to wait another year before coming out myself.
Tulip
Veteran
Hervoyel said:
OK. Am I the only one who noticed that this poster said:
A) that not considering Vince Young and settling on Reggie Bush now -when Vince is also considered a top-level draft pick, mind you- would alienate Longhorn fans.
B) the Texans should trade down instead of picking either of them.
How are either of those "blind orange" statements?
LoneStarState
Waterboy
Fiddy said:
Not really... could mean that he was playing against bad defenses and piled on the points...
Texanfan4ever
Rookie
You people are amazing! You change with the wind depending on which way the wind is blowing. I for one, am glad you are not on our decision making team....