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Andre Johnson released - cut by Colts - signs with Titans

dalemurphy said:
You think GMs dont, or shouldnt, explore trade possibilities, because it could be leaked?...

In this case, so what if it was leaked? The Texans want to move on from AJ. They shouldnt make big decisions about the teams future prioritizing offending the playe they no longer want.
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I think it all depends on what you think the Texans really want. If the goal is to move on from Aj, then surely they would have inquired about trades & surely there would have been some indications... like there was about Brandon Marshall, like what we're hearing about Jay Cutler, like we've heard about several FAs who have already been cut.

So far, with everything that's happened/not happened, everything we've heard/not heard.... I think the Texans are torn about Andre Johnson. I can definitely see RickyBobby on one side of the equation (that's both Rick Smith & Bill O'brien) & McNair on the other.

So far, nothing makes sense if they "clearly" wanted on or the other.
 
steelbtexan said:
I'm excited, I believe job #1 is replacing the OL and getting Newton re-signed.
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duck.jpg
 
dalemurphy said:
You think GMs dont, or shouldnt, explore trade possibilities, because it could be leaked?...

In this case, so what if it was leaked? The Texans want to move on from AJ. They shouldnt make big decisions about the teams future prioritizing offending the playe they no longer want.
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My comment was very specific to this circumstance and your specifying doing so without having had any conversation first with AJ.

It is obvious that there are politics and representations by McNair at issue here that don't apply to normal situations such as Brandon Marshall.

I'd bet courtesy calls to players are very common as well.

In this circumstance running the risk of the media and AJ first hearing about it through a leak, an event which has to be regarded as likely with any big name player, would be stupid.

And while you may give a crap about offending AJ or other players, I'm pretty sure McNair does care...and should. Plus the issue isn't just offending AJ, it's McNair's word at stake as well.

None of which is to say gauging the market can't or shouldn't be done. Just that would be a stupid way of doing it.

And to reverse your question, if you've decided to move on even if there is little or no trade market, why bother to take the PR risk?
 
thunderkyss said:
I don't understand how we "can't be sure" what was said in the room, but we're positive Andre doesn't believe he's anything less than a #1.

For all we know Hopkins was "designed" as the #1 all year & Andre still garnered more targets. Like I said before, why would OB wait a full season before working Andre into his "new role"?

& Andre has never been so selfish that he "demanded" to be the offense's focus. He didn't demand that when Arian continued to get carry after carry, or OD & Dressen got all the end zone targets.

To be "this" upset, it's easier for me to believe they described a role drastically different from what he played in 2014 & I don't think he was the #1 in 2014.
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IF he simply said move to the SLOT receiver, can everything else be inferred? ie 40 catches and non starter?
 
infantrycak said:
And to reverse your question, if you've decided to move on even if there is little or no trade market, why bother to take the PR risk?
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There is one successful PR strategy in the NFL: winning... Losing teams have to manage PR to limit the damage losing causes to their brand. Risk is almost always strongly correlated with greatness. Innovation, thinking/acting out of the box, preemptive and unpopular action are common ingredients in the formative years of most great organizations (NFL and in most areas of life). It is encouraging to me to see the Texans acting courageously and outside of the popular opinion and doing so with priorities structured and ordered buy BOBrien.
 
If AJ were to return to a reworked contract for multiple seasons at lower cap, do the Texans draft a WR and if so what round or do they fill another need and wait for another draft?
 
Marshall said:
IF he simply said move to the SLOT receiver, can everything else be inferred? ie 40 catches and non starter?
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I'm really questioning if you & I are speaking the same language. Andre was led to believe his role in the offense would be drastically reduced.

Wes Welker never had less than 80 catches as a New England Patriot.
 
thunderkyss said:
I'm really questioning if you & I are speaking the same language. Andre was led to believe his role in the offense would be drastically reduced.

Wes Welker never had less than 80 catches as a New England Patriot.
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That is why I asked. Is Wes Welker a typical slot receiver in that system or was it adjusted for a particular player? Was he considered a starter or a third down specialist?
 
badboy said:
If AJ were to return to a reworked contract for multiple seasons at lower cap, do the Texans draft a WR and if so what round or do they fill another need and wait for another draft?
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I still wouldn't be surprised to draft a WR high even if we convince AJ to stay.
 
Marshall said:
That is why I asked. Is Wes Welker a typical slot receiver in that system or was it adjusted for a particular player? Was he considered a starter or a third down specialist?
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It's typical for about the last 9 years which includes OB's time there. Edelman is similarly running 90+ receptions.

Two different answers on "starter." Conventionally the slot is not considered a starter spot. But starters are literally determined by who is on the field for the first play in terms of the record books. Thus Welker started most but not all games while with the Patriots. But I think given the role of Welker/Edelman they're generally considered starters.

But all of that is way far afield from any kind of 40 catch role. That's basically a Demaris Johnson role who by the way went down as starting 8 of 16 games he played in last year based on the 1st play formation. But I don't think many would list him as a starting WR.
 
Marshall said:
That is why I asked. Is Wes Welker a typical slot receiver in that system or was it adjusted for a particular player? Was he considered a starter or a third down specialist?
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Like everyone else is saying, we don't know the specifics. All we know for sure is that Andre was lead to believe his role would be drastically reduced. So much that he believes he would not be a starter.
 
infantrycak said:
It's typical for about the last 9 years which includes OB's time there. Edelman is similarly running 90+ receptions.

Two different answers on "starter." Conventionally the slot is not considered a starter spot. But starters are literally determined by who is on the field for the first play in terms of the record books. Thus Welker started most but not all games while with the Patriots. But I think given the role of Welker/Edelman they're generally considered starters.

But all of that is way far afield from any kind of 40 catch role. That's basically a Demaris Johnson role who by the way went down as starting 8 of 16 games he played in last year based on the 1st play formation. But I don't think many would list him as a starting WR.
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Thanks for the info. I just wondered if the mention of slot meant something different to each party in the conversation and might be a cause of a misunderstanding. I know it is grasping at straws.
 
Lucky said:
Even fewer would want to.

They (7-11s) left town in the mid-80's. Miss them.
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Slightly modified, they (7-11s/Yankees refer to them as party stores) returned as dollar stores. While some would claim they (Dollar Stores) are a current version of 5 and 10 cent stores, they are actually a blend of both {value of 5 & 10 cent stores and convenience of 7-11s}. Particularly in small towns and suburbs.
 
This non starter issue is a pc version of the Texans wanting him to take a paycut.
No way in hel would bob not put players on the field that gives him the best chance to win on game day. Hell I don't buy the 40 receptions thing either. If a player can get open, then a player will play and catch passes.

Hell I don't even know if our TEs(collectively) caught a total of 40 passes

Sad to see AJ go but if we can use his cap savings to fill other needs (ideally multiple). The Texans have to do it. AJ wants a ring and so do the Texans. It is just that money (cap hit)is affecting both right now

Unfortunately, I think AJ realized it the minute he was pissed at Schaub in 2013 and walked off the field on that infamous late game scene .Andre doesn't have time to wait for a rebuild.
 
Number19 said:
Under O'Brien, players are expected to put the team first. Those who violate this rule will be in the dog house and with a strong likelihood of seeking employment elsewhere.
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I think this is the way it has to be for a coach to be successful.

OB got his foot in the door first. Ran a different type of TC, no preferential treatment for veterans (or so it was reported). OB saying, so to speak, now prove yourselves to me. AJ chose not to report.

No knee jerk reaction from OB. Next year, no worries whether AJ chooses to report for TC or not.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it.

:coffee:
 
Wolf said:
This non starter issue is a pc version of the Texans wanting him to take a paycut.
No way in hel would bob not put players on the field that gives him the best chance to win on game day. Hell I don't buy the 40 receptions thing either. If a player can get open, then a player will play and catch passes.

Hell I don't even know if our TEs(collectively) caught a total of 40 passes
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This theory flies in the face of O'Brien being this straight-talking, no-nonsense, straight shooter his supporters say he is. Why didn't he just man up and tell A.J. "we need more cap room; will you take one for the team one more time?" or "we're going to draft a WR early and I'm going to start the best two of you, Hopkins, and the new guy. If you lose, you may not get more than 40 catches this year. That would have been the straight shooter thing to do.
 
ObsiWan said:
This theory flies in the face of O'Brien being this straight-talking, no-nonsense, straight shooter his supporters say he is. Why didn't he just man up and tell A.J. "we need more cap room; will you take one for the team one more time?" or "we're going to draft a WR early and I'm going to start the best two of you, Hopkins, and the new guy. If you lose, you may not get more than 40 catches this year. That would have been the straight shooter thing to do.
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But this is what I've been saying, we don't know that it didn't go down that way but AJ just heard the "you may not be a starter" and "you may only get 40 catches" part. Whenever there's a conversation between people and then those people relate what they heard, they focus on different things. AJ hearing OB saying that he might not get 40 catches that may have been the part that stuck in his craw and he may be overly focusing on that.

I can't imagine a world where a coach like OB is going to tell AJ that he's definitely only going to get 40 catches and he's not going to be a starter without giving him the opportunity to prove himself and win more targets and playing time through his hard work. That just doesn't fit with everything I've heard about OB.
 
infantrycak said:
Does AJ strike you as a guy unwilling to compete? That was one of his specific complaints, not having been beat out.
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Maybe Andre is not being as genuine as you or I would expect?

Like I said a couple days ago: get both sides comments BEFORE you pass judgement
 
DX-TEX said:
Maybe Andre is not being as genuine as you or I would expect?

Like I said a couple days ago: get both sides comments BEFORE you pass judgement
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Sure that's a theoretical possibility. Nothing in 12 years of history to suggest it's likely.

And like I said a couple days ago, I discuss things on the information available at the time. The Texans have declined a rebuttal or comment of any kind to this point.

If you look at my supposition on the transaction it has not been to paint anyone as a liar, but perhaps a bit Machiavellian.
 
infantrycak said:
Sure that's a theoretical possibility. Nothing in 12 years of history to suggest it's likely.

And like I said a couple days ago, I discuss things on the information available at the time. The Texans have declined a rebuttal or comment of any kind to this point.

If you look at my supposition on the transaction it has not been to paint anyone as a liar, but perhaps a bit Machiavellian.
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Just because AJ has been a man of few public words during his time as a Texan and been a great ambassador for the team, doesn't mean that his words in this matter are fact just because he stated them publicly. He is human, and a pro athlete with an ego, so his version of the story doesn't automatically become the benchmark that the Texans have to disprove. They are not obligated to respond, especially if they feel his comments have no merit.
 
infantrycak said:
Does AJ strike you as a guy unwilling to compete? That was one of his specific complaints, not having been beat out.
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AJ strikes me as a guy who's getting older and who knows he's getting older and he's trying to convince himself that he's still the guy he was 5-6 years ago. AJ is a guy who hasn't competed for his job... ever. He walked in as the starter and he's been the starter ever since. Talent-wise and work-ethic-wise, he's always been head and shoulders above everyone else on the team until recently. And now, his ability is starting to decline.

I love AJ. I want him to stay and I want him to retire a Texan. He's done so many great things for this franchise. But he is getting older and he's not the guy he was and he may not have nearly as much tread left on the tires as he thinks he does.
 
sandman said:
Just because AJ has been a man of few public words during his time as a Texan and been a great ambassador for the team, doesn't mean that his words in this matter are fact just because he stated them publicly. He is human, and a pro athlete with an ego, so his version of the story doesn't automatically become the benchmark that the Texans have to disprove. They are not obligated to respond, especially if they feel his comments have no merit.
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Did I say anything which contradicts any of that? No.

Since you bring it up though you might check out tacit admissions. Not going to argue over whether one has been made, just going to observe it's arguable.
 
Just something to think about. After his uncle's screw ups in representing and negotiating for him, AJ had no real reason to complain or misrepresent subsequent negotiations, as the Texans gave into some very generous terms.........and AJ was at more of his peak. Circumstances are quite different now, in that performance is still expected to closely match the ability to fulfill a requested role on the team (which understandably could be lesser than in the past) and the level of compensation more appropriately associated with it.
 
What is the possibillity this is all a big misunderstanding? What if OB just told AJ that he would be playing predominately in the slot and a new guy was going to be drafted. AJ considers what DJ's production was last year and assumed the 40 catches and non starter role?


the old "what you think you heard me say is not what I meant at all"
 
JB said:
What is the possibillity this is all a big misunderstanding? What if OB just told AJ that he would be playing predominately in the slot and a new guy was going to be drafted. AJ considers what DJ's production was last year and assumed the 40 catches and non starter role?


the old "what you think you heard me say is not what I meant at all"
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I would think something like that would have been cleared up in moments with "woah AJ, think supersized Wes Welker not Demaris Johnson."
 
JB said:
What is the possibillity this is all a big misunderstanding?
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Then what was the whole point of meeting with Andre in the first place? If it wasn't a precursor to trading or cutting him (or cutting his salary), I don't get it. Seems to me the Texans thought they were going to be players in the WR free agent market, and needed the cap space. I don't think this is going to plan, so far.
 
infantrycak said:
I would think something like that would have been cleared up in moments with "woah AJ, think supersized Wes Welker not Demaris Johnson."
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Lucky said:
Then what was the whole point of meeting with Andre in the first place? If it wasn't a precursor to trading or cutting him (or cutting his salary), I don't get it. Seems to me the Texans thought they were going to be players in the WR free agent market, and needed the cap space. I don't think this is going to plan, so far.
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The point I was trying to make is that we really don't know what was said in that meeting. AJ got upset, we know that. Maybe he said some things and OB got upset also. It seems strange to me that the Texans haven't released any kind of statement at all to either confirm or deny what AJ said
 
JB said:
The point I was trying to make is that we really don't know what was said in that meeting. AJ got upset, we know that. Maybe he said some things and OB got upset also. It seems strange to me that the Texans haven't released any kind of statement at all to either confirm or deny what AJ said
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They haven't cut AJ, yet. No reason to hold that press conference until it happens. My guess is that we still won't hear much. McNair, Smith, and O'Brien will keep it classy and speak to what a great Texan Johnson has been, but that it was time to turn the page. We may never hear the full story in an official manner from the Texans.

Having said that, why would you distrust what Johnson said? He didn't call the meeting. If the plan wasn't to get a reduced salary or have him look for a trade, there was no reason to hold the meeting. Nothing else adds up.
 
Lucky said:
They haven't cut AJ, yet. No reason to hold that press conference until it happens. My guess is that we still won't hear much. McNair, Smith, and O'Brien will keep it classy and speak to what a great Texan Johnson has been, but that it was time to turn the page. We may never hear the full story in an official manner from the Texans.
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Correct and for good reason. Not many players would want to play for an organization that throws the greatest player in franchise history under the bus. It's best for the Texans to keep their side of it out of the media.
 
ObsiWan said:
This theory flies in the face of O'Brien being this straight-talking, no-nonsense, straight shooter his supporters say he is. Why didn't he just man up and tell A.J. "we need more cap room; will you take one for the team one more time?" or "we're going to draft a WR early and I'm going to start the best two of you, Hopkins, and the new guy. If you lose, you may not get more than 40 catches this year. That would have been the straight shooter thing to do.
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In fairness, we have only heard one side of the story. And that's Andre's side. Smith and O'Brien appear content to let the organization take the PR hit and move on. Maybe O'Brien said, "Andre, I think you are a great man and still have something left in the tank but with Hopkins' ascension and our desire to utilize the TE and slot a little more next season you may only get 40 catches." At that point Andre laughs and demands to be traded or released.
 
Any body find it odd that one day we get slapped with "Andre given permission to seek trade" to the next day "Andre wants out right release" to, well, nothing. Radio silence ever since. The only people chirping about this are the fans.

And, nothing coming from the Texans. I wonder if Bob stepped in? Maybe he has gotten everyone in the room at gun point and forcing them to resolve this?

We signed KJax and Newton with AJ's salary still attached.
 
infantrycak said:
Sure that's a theoretical possibility. Nothing in 12 years of history to suggest it's likely.

And like I said a couple days ago, I discuss things on the information available at the time. The Texans have declined a rebuttal or comment of any kind to this point.

If you look at my supposition on the transaction it has not been to paint anyone as a liar, but perhaps a bit Machiavellian.
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Does the Texan lack of comment strike you as conceding his version or exercising discretionary silence to reduce tension? Either could be the case, but it becomes support fodder for those who think they know more than they do.

I will admit that I do not know. I HOPE it is the latter.
 
TEXANRED said:
And, nothing coming from the Texans. I wonder if Bob stepped in? Maybe he has gotten everyone in the room at gun point and forcing them to resolve this?
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That's what I suggested - that McNair was talked to generally but has now stepped in after the conversation went differently than he thought was going to happen.

Pure speculation but fits everything without anyone being a liar/not a man of their word.
 
brg88tx said:
andre is not nearly quick and shifty enough to be effective in the slot.
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That might be but he is savvy enough to know where dead spots are in zone coverages and get open in them. He's also still bad-ass enough to beat or out-muscle anybody's #3 CB or safety - aren't those guys responsible for covering the slot WR in man coverages?

In my mind, moving AJ to the slot could be a plus, not a minus.

...or do you think he's not even that good any more?
 
TEXANRED said:
Any body find it odd that one day we get slapped with "Andre given permission to seek trade" to the next day "Andre wants out right release" to, well, nothing. Radio silence ever since. The only people chirping about this are the fans.

And, nothing coming from the Texans. I wonder if Bob stepped in? Maybe he has gotten everyone in the room at gun point and forcing them to resolve this?

We signed KJax and Newton with AJ's salary still attached.
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could be...
:hmmm:
 
ObsiWan said:
That might be but he is savvy enough to know where dead spots are in zone coverages and get open in them. He's also still bad-ass enough to beat or out-muscle anybody's #3 CB or safety - aren't those guys responsible for covering the slot WR in man coverages?

In my mind, moving AJ to the slot could be a plus, not a minus.

...or do you think he's not even that good any more?
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I think he could. Have also always wondered why he couldn't move into a Shannon Sharpe role. But there's no indication that's what OB wants in a slot. He seems to be looking for Welker/Edelman types.
 
infantrycak said:
I think he could and have always wondered why he couldn't move into a Shannon Sharpe role, but there's no indication that's what OB wants in a slot. He seems to be looking for Welker/Edelman types.
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We do know he said we didn't have a slot receiver on the team
 
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