ATXtexanfan
Hall of Fame
to be honest. **** dre. he should have thrown his hissy fit before draft. this is the same mofo who believed in kubiak and schaub. time to move on
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All Encompassing Andre Johnson Thread (Just got some disturbing news about A Johnson)
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Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
God gives us rights. He gives us promises, some unconditional and some conditional.
Man acknowledges them or chooses not to at their own peril. Laws are made by man and enforceable by men. Contracts are legal instruments designed to detail agreements with civil consequences when breached. Breaching the contract may trigger varying enforcement actions, some of which are agreed to within the contract. This does not mean there is no breach, only the remedy is agreed to in those special cases.
Back to AJ. He is in breach of his contract. Fines have been agreed to for these particular breaches, but permit the Texans to keep the contract in force. They have the option to void the contract and sue for damages, but it has not reached that point, yet. But have no doubt the damages could include the entirety of any new contract he signs to play football elsewhere. He always has the right to retire or quit. But that doesn't include the right to play elsewhere before the term of his contract expires.
The alternative is to waive him for a negotiated price which entails another contract. Why would you make a contract with someone who doesn't honor past contracts?
But this is basic contract law which any college grad should have in the recesses of their memory. It is not expert in any way. My expertise is in eminent domain law and right of way acquisition which is a specialized area of the specialized law dealing with real property which includes special requirements to be enforcable. But thank you for thinking I'm an expert in contract law.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
YET! There are remedies in place for these minor breeches. But these are breaches. The march toward material breach has begun.
Dishman
Miss Ya Blue
Why can't we give this situation more time to work itself out before writing off Dre? I understand he needs to be at camp, but his absence isn't going to ruin our SB chances for the year. If Dre was going to pick a year to cause some waves and sit out training camp this might as well be the year.
Can you help me differiate between Walter's and AJ's contract?
But as you stated, I don't think you can.
If the law governing player contracts is not working well for the owners, I'm absolutely sure they would do something about it.
The rest of your post is a given.
I have no doubt both parties know the ramification of their actions.
I just want to say I don't think Dre' is the devil. It's just business and if I was McNair I would be a very hardliner.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
I don't think McNair wants the public relations fiasco. Dre IS Texan Football. He is the single player who people would think of when the Texans are mentioned (relax .. I know JJ is beloved).
Whats the big deal by not allowing him to go somewhere else? I don't get it. This team stinks with or without Dre, why not give him the chance to play in meaningful games? Over zealous fans who turn on their city's icons are embarrassing. "Its all about the team, screw em"
I wonder how most of you would be commenting if say he hasn't been producing like an all pro. Say those injuries caught up to him and this conversation is about the team cutting him or the ever popular 'permission for player to seek trade' due to decline. Since that benefits only the team I guess it would be Ok huh?
Tough business decisions go both ways.
The big deal is about setting an example for other players. (This is a new regime) In this case it's the tail (Dre, feeling he deserves to get what he want, like he's done before renegotiating with McNair) trying to wag the dog.
If McNair lets Dre' walk what makes you think other players like Watt for instance wont try and use the same tactics? You're right business decisions go both ways. McNair has the hammer and hopefully he uses it.
Hottoddie
Veteran
It was a purely speculative trade idea I suggested in post 1254 on page 63. Sorry, didn't mean to cause any confusion.
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Hottoddie
Veteran
Great post. Sarcasm!!!!!:mariopalm:
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
He loses a lot of money if he retires, i am sure that plays a role in him not just retiring.
AJ will be back before the season and then everything will seem right in the world again. And this will all be forgotten after we win the superbowl with a 4th round rookie
The worst case scenario is him emotionally retiring before he actually retires. Then he gets paid well for sitting out because of a string of minor injuries, some of which are phantom injuries.
It's been done before, but AJ's usually been better than that. This is why I think someone is influencing him now. The biggest injury risk right now is to his Texans legacy.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
I don't pretend to know all the nuances about his contract, but didn't he extend with short term conditions that were favorable to the team? I was looking at his contract numbers here http://overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Andre Johnson&Position=WR&Team=Texans and he appears to have been paid well under the market for a few years in his prime, with balloon payments at the end.
In other words, are the Texans paying now for services already rendered? Does that make sense? What one can get on the open market, versus what one can get from the only team you've ever played for and had multiple renegotiations with, are two entirely different things.
That being said, Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald are both getting over $20MM this next season. From a production standpoint, AJ is right with these guys. Then you have Harvin, Mike Wallace, Bowe, Vincent Jackson, Greg Jennings all earning $12MM-$14MM this next season, and an old, slow broken down AJ out-performed them this last season. And the season before that. Several of these guys signed FA contracts or extensions within the last few years.
So when you say that AJ wouldn't get $16MM on the open market, what do you think he would get? Half of the players listed above are 30 or older. Is it reasonable to say at 32, with the consistent Top 5 production from the last two seasons, that AJ is in their ballpark?
I won't argue that $16MM is a lot of money, but the market is clearly supporting $12MM-$14MM for players that have not had his performance. I am just curious where you think the right salary would be for him based on age, current performance, and compared to both production/contracts of his peers.
If his 2nd contract comes at age 32 (AJ's didn't) and there are signs of slippage from a talent standpoint and Clowney is playing at an all pro level, then I imagine there will be a lot of people that will be OK letting Watt walk.
But these situations aren't even close to the same. AJ was signed to his 2nd contract (Even though McNair didn't have too) and now he's trying to force his way out of that 2nd contract.
It will be interesting to see how McNair lets this play out, since the Texans aren't going to the SB with or without AJ.
From what I understand, the Texans cap would take a big hit if they were to trade AJ.
The team's best interest, PR aside, is to let this thing play out and give AJ his only two options: retire or play football as a Houston Texan. The team has all the leverage right now.
Of course, if the team is asking him to take a pay cut, this whole situation changes the perceptions of a lot of folks.
I would let AJ and his 16MM hit cap walk if I could be assured that McNair/Smith would spend the $$$$. This 1 move will get the Texans out of what seems like eternal cap he**. The Texans can add a lot of quality players with 16 MM.
You want to fix the secondary/RT/LB spots? You can do this with 16 mil in cap space. This is the direction that I can see BOB moving Rick in rather than paying the AJ/Foster/Cushing type contracts. But that is time for another thread.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
Problem is not many teams will want to take on his salary, only way he will go somewhere else IMO is if he retires, and comes out and signs somewhere else. Then again he will lose about 30 million dollars doing that. But i just dont see any teams willing to take on that salary for a 32 yr old WR.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
AJ went to Rick last offseason for more guaranteed money. No go.
Rick wanted to rework AJ's deal down to keep him a Texan for 3 more years.
Texans position is they can't keep current contract in 2015/16 and improve their roster in FA. Too much. There are other pending issues, as well.
So they're at loggerheads... AJ was coming in thinking he'd get a raise to make up for "lost salary", and the Texans looking to lower his cap & cash hit to keep him in the fold until retirement.
Worst case is AJ walks into camp late and forces team to cut him after this season. (Texans save ~$9 million in 2015 & $12 million in 2016 v. cap.) In the past when AJ has done this, throwing a little money at him and massaging contract numbers to make him look good has sufficed. We'll see.
Rick wanted to rework AJ's deal down to keep him a Texan for 3 more years.
Texans position is they can't keep current contract in 2015/16 and improve their roster in FA. Too much. There are other pending issues, as well.
So they're at loggerheads... AJ was coming in thinking he'd get a raise to make up for "lost salary", and the Texans looking to lower his cap & cash hit to keep him in the fold until retirement.
Worst case is AJ walks into camp late and forces team to cut him after this season. (Texans save ~$9 million in 2015 & $12 million in 2016 v. cap.) In the past when AJ has done this, throwing a little money at him and massaging contract numbers to make him look good has sufficed. We'll see.
Agreed
But I think the yrs of massaging the numbers to keep AJ happy have come to an end. This is truly a new era. BTW Jerry Rice didn't retire a 49er and I doubt that AJ will retire a Texan. How the split occurs is yet to be determined.
You you're saying that this split has come down to $$$$? Who would of thunk it?
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
This is one massage I don't see resulting in a "happy ending."
But what option does he have besides playing for the Texans ? He can retire and leave all of that money on the table, but what else can he do unless he would actually play so badly, even try to sabotage the Texans season by inept play and they would cut him ? As I understand it, it would just cost the Texans too much to trade him or release him outright ?
DX-TEX
#TomSavageDontCare
**** in one hand and want in another and see which one fills up first
Texian
Hall of Fame
so original....wish I had a nickle for every time I've heard someone use that phrase.
tbh, I'm not too thrilled about having to watch Fitz in a Texans uniform trying to throw passes, so I can only imagine what is going through AJ's head.
That said, like AJ, we do not have a lot of options right now. He can retire and we can stop watching, or, he can keep getting paid as a Houston Texan and we can continue to root for them and hope for the best as fans of the team.
While our bodies are not going to take another year of beating in the NFL, we are also not going to get paid $10 million to do it.
drs23
Veteran
Texian
Hall of Fame
tbh, I'm not too thrilled about having to watch Fitz in a Texans uniform trying to throw passes, so I can only imagine what is going through AJ's head.
"That said, like AJ, we do not have a lot of options right now. He can retire and we can stop watching, or, he can keep getting paid as a Houston Texan and we can continue to root for them and hope for the best as fans of the team."
While our bodies are not going to take another year of beating in the NFL, we are also not going to get paid $10 million to do it.
As a big picture, long term guy/thinker I would opt for trading AJ this year and take the $2.7 mil in 2014 reduction in salary/cap relief. Even better is the $16.1 million in salary cap relief in 2015 and $14.6 million in 2016 (BIG picture thinking).
AJ is only a year away from the same age as Owens, Ocho Cinco and Moss when their skills began to NOTICEABLY decline. Philly makes perfect sense, has the $, AJ makes them prohibitive favorites to win NFC East and go deep in playoffs with home field advantage (especially after losing DeSean Jackson).
$15 million a yr for a couple of years will go a long way in signing some very good footballs players OR pay 35%-40% of JJ Watts new contract ....but that's big picture thinking.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/andre-johnson/
Good points, man. Many have speculated that they would cut AJ next year simply because of the money due in his contract. Huge numbers that the Texans probably thought would be renegotiated at some point...perhaps 2014?
What kind of cap hit does trading him now do to the Texans? Both this season and beyond?
I like AJ, but if he's cool with it and the Texans are cool with it, I'd go along with trading him for a variety of reasons. Mostly the space to sign JJ to a long term deal, in addition to giving AJ a chance to go deep in the playoffs.
Philly would be an interesting destination, too, especially if Nick Foles continues to trend like he did last season.
DeSean Jackson could stretch the field as could AJ when he was Jackson's age, but not anymore as now AJ is basically just a possession receiver.
But are you sure about that relief in cap to the Texans of being over the sum of 30 million ? If that were the case, Texans would seem to would have a real motivation to make the deal. Otherwise, another Texans to Philly would further enhance the rep of a Philly/Texans connection with about 7 or 8 former Texans now on their roster.
Yep,
The question is how long will it be before he gets injured?
How long will it take for him to learn a new offense?
Will his heart be in it?
Nobody knows the answers to these questions.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Good points, man. Many have speculated that they would cut AJ next year simply because of the money due in his contract. Huge numbers that the Texans probably thought would be renegotiated at some point...perhaps 2014?
What kind of cap hit does trading him now do to the Texans? Both this season and beyond?
I like AJ, but if he's cool with it and the Texans are cool with it, I'd go along with trading him for a variety of reasons. Mostly the space to sign JJ to a long term deal, in addition to giving AJ a chance to go deep in the playoffs.
Philly would be an interesting destination, too, especially if Nick Foles continues to trend like he did last season.
AJ's salary cap number this year, 2014, is $14,644,583. This is the salary cap allocation if AJ remains a Texan for this upcoming season. If AJ is traded the Texans would NOT have to pay his 2014 $10,000,000 salary. If traded to Philly, Philly would've to pay the $10,000,000 unless that amount is renegotiated with AJ. However the Texans would still be accountable for all bonuses that were paid to AJ in advance (restructuring, money paid in advance in 2011,12,13 but amortized, applied to salary caps in 2014,15,16).
All moneys that were paid in advanced, and have not been accounted for, become due immediately when the player is traded or released. This is known as dead money. AJ's 2014 Dead Money (if traded or released) is $11,964,166. Therefore if AJ is traded the Texans will have to account for $11,964,166 in dead money against the salary cap instead of the $14,644,583 if AJ remains a 2014 Texan. A savings of $2,680,417 against the 2014 salary cap.
The BIGGER prize is once traded, all money comes forward and due immediately. That eliminates AJ's 2015 salary cap charge of $16,144,583 in and his 2016 salary cap charge of $14,675,000 if AJ is traded in 2014.
That's BIG as in BIG LONG TERM THINKING!
I'm on board with this line of thinking. Hopefully there will be a Kubiak/Johnson, Schaub/Johnson, Ryans/Johnson reunion in the near future. I would take a 3rd/5th rd pick in exchange.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Unfortunately I'm not sure the current Texans brain trust sees it this way. Their point of view is more likely in the line of thinking that AJ is the bank. Should the need arise and it usually does, if the Texans need to borrow money from 2015 and 2016 to fully pay for the 2014 53 man roster, as has been the practice the last 3 years, they've always been able to restructure AJ's contract in order to make it happen. He's good for a $5-$8 million restructure. Trading AJ takes away that security blanket. IMHO a security blanket that needs to be taken away as it is the direct result of the Texans salary cap hell.
Texian
Hall of Fame
He could sit out ala Carson Palmer and force a trade or he could retire or he could show up and go through motions and bank $10 mil. Based on the fact that AJ is 33, the smart thing for the Texans is to get what they can for him and move on. See my previous post about what it would cost the Texans. The big obstacle here is finding a team willing to take on AJ's $10 million salary.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Pushing The Pocket - Examining The Potential Ramifications Of An Andre Johnson Trade
Cian Fahey examines Andre Johnson through the lens of a potential trade.
Cian Fahey examines Andre Johnson through the lens of a potential trade.
This looks to be viewable on the non-pay side... let me know if not....
During the 2013 season, each of Johnson's five touchdowns came on passes from Case Keenum. Keenum replaced Matt Schaub as the team's starter during the regular season and he initially provided a spark. Keenum didn't play great football, but he started off throwing the ball well and had an aggressive attitude that completely contrasted Schaub's. Once Keenum began to struggle, Schaub came back in.
Even though Keenum was more aggressive than Schaub, the quality of service Johnson received wasn't anywhere near what it should have been.
Every green circle on the above image is a catchable target. Every orange circle is a touchdown reception. As the chart shows, Johnson had only seven catchable targets in the end zone last season. Three of those weren't converted to touchdowns, with one contested drop over the middle of the field, one open drop down the seam and one poorly thrown jump ball that the defender beat Johnson to. Johnson's two touchdowns to the top of the above image in the end zone were the only two jump ball touchdowns he scored last year. The one at the bottom came on a crossing route against Patrick Peterson.
Both of those jump ball situations featured poorly thrown passes, but passes that both defenders, Peterson and Vontae Davis, failed to get to despite being in a better position than Johnson.
For Johnson to go through a 16 game regular season and only see three total jump balls there has to be something wrong with your philosophy on offense. Johnson has phenomenal ball skills, despite struggling with drops in 2013, and the size to dominate most defensive backs. Gary Kubiak has consistently avoided throwing the ball to his star receiver the closer the offense gets to the goal line. Over the past five seasons, only one team has run the ball more often within 10 yards of the end zone than the Texans...
Thanks for the information, man. Very interesting to read.
If I'm the Texans, I'd have to seriously consider a trade if someone was a willing partner.
Let's face it, the 2014 is a rebuild season and we cannot have a lot of expectations going in just based on the QB situation. Fitz, a rookie, and a still unproven UDFA gives me absolutely no confidence that this season has any sort of playoff aspirations.
So, take the big hit this season and put the team in a better position for the long term, including JJ Watt's contract. See how these three QBs develop over the season, and if they do not prove to be any sort of long term solution, the team will probably be in the top 10 pick for the 2015 draft.
As a fan, I like AJ and want to see him retire as a Texan. However, I also want to see this team be in position for long term success. And like you said, AJ is 33 and not getting younger. And if he's not willing to be a part of the program right now, why let this matter fester and have the potential to develop into some bad blood?
badboy
Hall of Fame
If Johnson is serious about going to another team
If Smith is willing to trade him
If another team wants him & is willing to offer good deal
If the offer is acceptable by Smith
If that offer is better than risking a year with AJ possibly not playing to expectations
Why is AJ still here?
If Smith is willing to trade him
If another team wants him & is willing to offer good deal
If the offer is acceptable by Smith
If that offer is better than risking a year with AJ possibly not playing to expectations
Why is AJ still here?
Vinnie
with an I E
I'd rather he be here, even if he isn't happy with it. LZ talked about it this morning, and says we'd be lucky to get a third for him, and it would be a late third at that considering he wants to be traded to a contender. Rick has been terrible at drafting in the middle rounds, so I really don't see the extra pick being of any more value then just keeping AJ around. Sorry Dre, your stuck with the Texans. He'll be back, no way he retires and gives up all that cash.
badboy
Hall of Fame
What about a swap for another vet that could strengthen our team? Maybe a safety or ILB...
I agree with you that I'd rather AJ be here, and like I said, I want him to retire a Houston Texan.
We were just discussing other possibilities from the team's perspective, because they have all the leverage in this situation.
And without knowing what is really going on in AJ's head right now, we can only talk about possibilities and speculation. It's all just food for thought. Only time will tell us what's happening in the end.
lol! You and me both, man. I'm so ready for football season to start so we have something real to talk about instead of this intangible stuff.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Why does everybody assume AJ is underpaid rather than other guys being overpaid?
PapaL
Loose Screw
Concur
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