All Encompassing Andre Johnson Thread (Just got some disturbing news about A Johnson)

[cbs1507]

Transactions per Spotrac:
Sep 3 2013
Restructured 2013 salary/roster bonus from $10.5 million to $5 million with Houston (HOU)
Mar 13 2012
Restructured 2012 salary from $6.5 million to $700k with Houston (HOU)
Aug 5 2010
Signed a 7 year $67.8 million extension with Houston (HOU)
Mar 3 2007
Signed a 6 year $70 million extension with Houston (HOU)
Jul 22 2003
Signed a 6 year $39 million contract with Houston (HOU)
Apr 26 2003
Drafted by Houston (HOU): Round 1 (#3 overall)

Career earnings from bonus (guaranteed money) ~ $44m and career earnings with salary ~ $75m

You can say it was the first contract re-worked over and over...still doesn't change the fact that Andre could have probably had a contract more in line with his skill level on the first extension.

That was just me being anal. But yeah he definitely could have had had more money if he just finish out his rookie contract.

 

[Playoffs]

That's what happens with you negotiate contracts without good representation...

Yep. That agent who's been making the radio rounds pointed out that Larry Fitzgerald has earned $15 million more than AJ over his career, while playing one less year.

 

[Hottoddie]

Ya' know, I have a real hard time feeling sorry for a multi-millionaire because he's not making more money than the next multi-millionaire. I truely enjoy watching AJ play & hope he decides to come to camp & finish out his career as a Texan. But, if he chooses not to, I'm going to wish him the best & continue to cheer for the Texans. I'm a fan of the team more than I'm a fan of an individual player. Thanks for the memories AJ.

 

[noxiousdog]

Yep. That agent who's been making the radio rounds pointed out that Larry Fitzgerald has earned $15 million more than AJ over his career, while playing one less year.

I really don't understand this theory that Andre is under compensated. That's going to equate to less than 15%. Add on that Andre was drafted first, and renegotiated first, that's about to be expected and there's a good argument that Fitzgerald is better anyway (87 TDs to 61).

The facts don't fit the theory.

 

[Uncle Rico]

I really don't understand the theory that Andre is under compensated. That's going to equate to less than 15%. Add on that Andre was drafted first, and renegotiated first, that's about to be expected and there's a good argument that Fitzgerald is better anyway (87 TDs to 61).

The facts don't fit the theory.

How many TDs would Dre have with a strong armed COMPETENT QB? How does that stat reflect negatively on Dre?

 

[noxiousdog]

How many TDs would Dre have with a strong armed COMPETENT QB? How does that stat reflect negatively on Dre?

You're painting into a binary when we are talking about nuance. It was a contract negotiation. One guy scores 8.7 tds per year, and the other 5.5. And while Fitzgerald did have Warner, he also had McCown, Leinart, Kolb, and Anderson, and Palmer.

Look, I'm not running down Andre. I'm just saying that it's easily arguable that Fitzgerald deserved a little more money, but clearly they are both are similar in performance and compensation. They far more alike than different anyway.

 

[EllisUnit]

You're painting into a binary when we are talking about nuance. It was a contract negotiation. One guy scores 8.7 tds per year, and the other 5.5. And while Fitzgerald did have Warner, he also had McCown, Leinart, Kolb, and Anderson, and Palmer.

Look, I'm not running down Andre. I'm just saying that it's easily arguable that Fitzgerald deserved a little more money, but clearly they are both are similar in performance and compensation. They far more alike than different anyway.

Give me AJ in his prime over Fitzgerald anyday. AJ has had Carr and Schaub, Warner easily helps give AJ 10-15 more total TDs to his resume. AJ has carried this team with sometimes little or no help. And he has atleast made our crappy QBs look descent sometimes.

 

[dalemurphy]

Give me AJ in his prime over Fitzgerald anyday. AJ has had Carr and Schaub, Warner easily helps give AJ 10-15 more total TDs to his resume. AJ has carried this team with sometimes little or no help. And he has atleast made our crappy QBs look descent sometimes.

I would also take AJ in his prime... However, that ship sailed 3 years ago.

 

[EllisUnit]

I would also take AJ in his prime... However, that ship sailed 3 years ago.

Dunno he looked damn good last season as well, even with horrible QB play

 

[Uncle Rico]

109 catches 1400 yards. Yup definitely in decline we should ship that bum out of here, but then nobody would want him on their team with his bad attitude and poor production.

 

[dalemurphy]

109 catches 1400 yards. Yup definitely in decline we should ship that bum out of here, but then nobody would want him on their team with his bad attitude and poor production.

I did not assert that he had a bad attitude or that he was unproductive. As I wrote earlier, I equate him to be a similar receiver at this stage of his career to A. Boldin, who is an excellent receiver as well. However, neither he nor AJ (at this stage of his career) have the explosive speed and playmaking ability to justify a $16 million cap hit.

 

[cstyle42]

109 catches 1400 yards. Yup definitely in decline we should ship that bum out of here, but then nobody would want him on their team with his bad attitude and poor production.

A lot Texans fan are just plain slow... Andre Johnson is still a beast.

 

[Uncle Rico]

I did not assert that he had a bad attitude or that he was unproductive. As I wrote. arlier, I equate him to be a similar receiver at this stage of his career to A. Boldin, who is an excellent receiver as well. However, neither he nor AJ (at this stage of his career) have the explosive speed and playmaking ability to justify a $16 million cap hit.

Boldin put up similar stats sure IN 2005! When you talk about speed do you mean like Deandre Hopkins fast? Lol

 

[steelbtexan]

How many TDs would Dre have with a strong armed COMPETENT QB? How does that stat reflect negatively on Dre?

Speculate for us?

How many more TD's would AJ have had with a WR like Boldin opposite him? How many more TD's/catches would AJ have had if Kubiak wasn't his HC? All of this is just speculation.

 

[EllisUnit]

Speculate for us?

How many more TD's would AJ have had with a WR like Boldin opposite him? How many more TD's/catches would AJ have had if Kubiak wasn't his HC? All of this is just speculation.

IF AJ had a QB like Brees or Manning i believe he would have close to 100 or more for his career. I mean he was and still is one of the best in the game

 

[dalemurphy]

Boldin put up similar stats sure IN 2005! When you talk about speed do you mean like Deandre Hopkins fast? Lol

I would imagine that Posey is our most explosive WR, particularly if you focus on speed. I love AJ, and I have no desire to tear the man down. I'm simply stating what is clear. Watch footage of him 4-5 years ago and compare it to the last couple seasons. Not only has his speed diminished but his ability to break tackles, to accelerate have also diminished. It happens. He has played for a long time and been the center of the offense for most of that time, suffering injuries like the PCL and detached hamstring. Despite that, he is still an excellent WR.

Other than wanting to operate in the realm of reality, my only point is that a $16+ million cap hit is very expensive for a descending WR (descending from a very tall peak, I would agree).

 

[JRingo]

Needs to go. Cancerous attitude is no bueno IMO.

 

[dalemurphy]

IF AJ had a QB like Brees or Manning i believe he would have close to 100 or more for his career. I mean he was and still is one of the best in the game

I think you are likely correct. None of that would change the fact, though, that his skills are declining due to age and injury. If this was 2010, I would be panicked about a holdout by AJ. It isn't... I doubt that New Orleans, Denver, or New England has any interest in trading for him at this point, even though he would only count about $11-$12 million against the cap the next two seasons instead of the $16-$17 million he will count against the Texans' cap.

 

[OzzO]

That's really good but somewhere you could have mentioned beating the hell out of Finnegan .

It's there, last line of 2nd paragraph.

No way one can forget that.

 

[mussop]

I need to go. My Cancerous attitude is no bueno.

Fify

 

[Uncle Rico]

Speculate for us?

How many more TD's would AJ have had with a WR like Boldin opposite him? How many more TD's/catches would AJ have had if Kubiak wasn't his HC? All of this is just speculation.

I'd guess that Dre had to wait on about 20 would-be TD passes during the Schaub era. Like literally stop running and catch the ball. Sprinkle in another 10 on miscellaneous screw ups and 30 more TD's would be my answer.

Wish they would have just tossed it up for him more in the red zone. Wonder what a cannon armed and accurate QB would have brought to an offense with a prime #80. Weak coaching and mediocre to bad QB play might cost him an early trip to Canton. (I think he'll get in eventually thus the importance for him to be on a team that will be able to utilize him effectively and solidify his legacy in football)

 

[maddogmrb]

IF AJ had a QB like Brees or Manning i believe he would have close to 100 or more for his career. I mean he was and still is one of the best in the game

Agreed ... I also believe that Kubiak and the schemes/playcalling had a lot to do with his lack of TDs.

 

[xtruroyaltyx]

Texans didn't honor Yates contract.

 

[disaacks3]

Texans didn't honor Yates contract.

Yep, they're a bunch of quitters.

 

[eriadoc]

Lots of things could have been "if" ... Fact is, AJ has put up amazing yardage statistics with pretty low TD numbers for that yardage. If his ratio was within the same ballpark as some of the other elite WRs, then I'd be more inclined to buy the "if" argument for TDs. He has the stats he has, and the Texans have had more losing seasons with him than they have had winning seasons. If a QB is around for losses, he's not good enough and needs to be canned, right? Well, either the same goes for the All World Elite WR or you just concede that WRs aren't all that important to team success. Either way, it's not worth a 60 page thread.

If he shows up, good. If he doesn't, good. Whatever.

 

[mussop]

He is a quitter, and I never asserted he displayed the character flaw before. You are making that up. It's not about what I asserted, it's about what AJ asserted when he signed that contract.

AJ gave his word when he signed his contract. I am sure if you read it, it lays out that he is expected to show up to OTA's and camp. In fact, as it has been reported, he has forfeited a 1 million dollar roster bonus for not showing up, plus he will be fined nearly 70k for missing the 3 day mandatory camp. So yeah, he gave his word and even signed on the dotted line to back that up.



I fail to see how asking an athlete to honor his contract is getting emotional. I normally agree with most of the things you post DB, and the same holds true for most of your post, but in regards to the last few paragraphs, I couldn't disagree more.

An NFL contract is just like any other contract. If it were not binding then he would not be losing roster bonuses or being fined for not showing up. That is not to say things cannot be negotiated and both parties agree to dissolve the old contract and work something out that benefits both parties. But if that is the case. then men with honor would have handled that behind closed doors in the off season. Why is it you think us regular folks have to honor our contracts, but athletes don't?

Obviously you never served or you would not be saying that. I did serve and I can tell you this is desertion of the unit. You may not like the comparison, but that does not mean it is not a valid one.

Someone who calls another man pathetic for expressing his views on a message board is the one who needs to have his head checked. It seems to me you are the one getting emotional about it with your ad hominem attack. It's just an opinion. No reason for you to make it personal.

The sun will rise tomorrow whether Dre shows up or not, and I will not lose a wink of sleep over that. But the damage Dre has done to young kids who look up to him will last a lifetime. I can only imagine parents telling their kids when they ask why Dre is doing this: "Yes I know I said there is no I in team little Johnny, but it's complicated"

We teach our kids right from wrong, and then someone who has been a well respected role model behaves like this and smashes those lessons to pieces.

You are being hypocritical DB because you have commented plenty of times where you should have practiced what you are preaching.

I guess the texans organization are quitters now. Yates had a year left on his contract. Those poor little kids are that you have been teaching right from wrong are surely going to have the lessons they have learned smashed to pieces. Or are you going to be a hypocrite And not hold the team to the same standard you're holding AJ to? Or do you now see that an NFL contract is NOT like any other contract?

 

[76Texan]

I guess the texans organization are quitters now. Yates had a year left on his contract. Those poor little kids are that you have been teaching right from wrong are surely going to have the lessons they have learned smashed to pieces. Or are you going to be a hypocrite And not hold the team to the same standard you're holding AJ to? Or do you now see that an NFL contract is NOT like any other contract?

A better example would be Kevin Walter.
It is true that the Texans can cut him, but they asked him to take a 2M pay cut.
Instead of earning 3.5M in each year from 2012-1014, he agreed to take just 1.5M in 2012 to stay with the team in the hope of going to the SB.
The Texans ended up cutting him after the season anyway.
They were hoping that Posey, Martin, or Le Jean would step up, but none did last year.

 

[Brandon420tx]

It does seem like people are taking this way too personally. Almost as if Andre Johnson kicked their dog.

I laughed at the "from idol to just want him gone post"

 

[mussop]

A better example would be Kevin Walter.
It is true that the Texans can cut him, but they asked him to take a 2M pay cut.
Instead of earning 3.5M in each year from 2012-1014, he agreed to take just 1.5M in 2012 to stay with the team in the hope of going to the SB.
The Texans ended up cutting him after the season anyway.
They were hoping that Posey, Martin, or Le Jean would step up, but none did last year.

Well nitro fish what do you have to say about that????????


Great example 76.

 

[xtruroyaltyx]

The way NFL contracts are structured, holding out is the only leverage the players have.

If Andre was truly in breach of his contract the Texans would be taking legal action. Andre is doing what his contract and CBA allows.

 

[cbs1507]

The way NFL contracts are structured, holding out is the only leverage the players have.

If Andre was truly in breach of his contract the Texans would be taking legal action. Andre is doing what his contract and CBA allows.

Let me reiterate what I said in a earlier post. Contract, CBA's etc do not give anybody rights. The rights are your by virtue of you being in existence. You can only willingly give up rights (usually for a perceived benefit) or not speak up when they are encroached upon. Andre is just exercising a right, which has never been conceded. They may have agreed upon fine schedule for exercising it, but it was never relinquished. Point blank.

 

[xtruroyaltyx]

Let me reiterate what I said in a earlier post. Contract, CBA's etc do not give anybody rights. The right are your by virtue of you being in existence. You can only willingly give up rights (usually for a perceived benefit) or not speak up when they are encroached upon. Andre is just exercising a right, which has never been conceded. They may have agreed upon fine schedule for exercising it, but it was never relinquished. Point blank.

I didn't say anything about rights in my post.

The bolded is the point of my post.

While Andre isn't doing what's best for the team at this point, he isn't doing anything that isn't allowed.

 

[Nitrofish]

I guess the texans organization are quitters now. Yates had a year left on his contract. Those poor little kids are that you have been teaching right from wrong are surely going to have the lessons they have learned smashed to pieces. Or are you going to be a hypocrite And not hold the team to the same standard you're holding AJ to? Or do you now see that an NFL contract is NOT like any other contract?

Well nitro fish what do you have to say about that????????


Great example 76.

It's real simple. They did not lock Yates out of competing for the job. They gave him a fair shot to stay with the team, he failed to perform, and he was cut. I am confident that language is built into each and every contract which is why they are not in breach of contract, and Yates, as well as every other NFL player knows that when they sign and take the money. Had they asked Yates to stay on the sidelines while they stated in the press the competition was wide open, then you could call them hypocrites. Yates will walk away with whatever money he was guaranteed to make, if any. I'm no lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

You guys are comparing apples and oranges. The team clearly stated what it expects from it's players, and allowed them all the same opportunity to compete to stay on the team. Something Dre is not doing. How is he supposed to know if the team can win if he is not there competing with everyone else to find out?

Dre is sabotaging this teams season with this nonsense, and letting his teammates down while he worries about his personal goals or feelings.

The truth is none of us really know what his reasons for sitting out are. He has not asked for a trade that we know of, he has not asked for more money that we know of. All we do know is he chose to comment to the media that he was not sure the Texans were where he wanted to be because of yet another rebuild.

The other thing we know is Dre himself said after signing his last contract;

"I always said I wanted to play for one team, and to be able to play for the Houston Texans for the rest of my career, it's a tremendous honor." -Andre Johnson

 

[Nitrofish]

Let me reiterate what I said in a earlier post. Contract, CBA's etc do not give anybody rights. The right are your by virtue of you being in existence. You can only willingly give up rights (usually for a perceived benefit) or not speak up when they are encroached upon. Andre is just exercising a right, which has never been conceded. They may have agreed upon fine schedule for exercising it, but it was never relinquished. Point blank.

Are you sure?

Why do people make half assed comments like this? Why don't you read it yourself?

http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

I read over the nfl contract portion. It just basically says if a player willfully misses practice, workout, off season stuff etc he can be fined up to a certain extent. The fact that they even word it in the manner they did shows that it always has been and will continue to be a right of a player to holdout for any reason. It defintely doesn't speak of this bullcrap alot of other posters are saying "Well he signed a contract. He owes it to the team" I haven't seen a clause about that BS. It's a business. Get over it.

 

[dalemurphy]

The way NFL contracts are structured, holding out is the only leverage the players have.

If Andre was truly in breach of his contract the Texans would be taking legal action. Andre is doing what his contract and CBA allows.

True, but he is currently being overpaid. He is delusional if he believes any team in the NFL would willingly pay him more than he is scheduled to make under the current contract. I don't think anyone is arguing whether AJ has a legal right to holdout. Instead, people are assessing his wisdom (or lack of), as well as his fulfillment of his moral and ethical responsibilities. Those are always valid concerns apart from legal responsibility.

 

[Nitrofish]

The way NFL contracts are structured, holding out is the only leverage the players have.

If Andre was truly in breach of his contract the Texans would be taking legal action. Andre is doing what his contract and CBA allows.

This is nonsense. You do not go from holdout to lawsuit, but you can bet your sweet bippy if negotiations do not resolve the dispute it will eventually go to court. If Dre refuses to play, and then refused to return money that has been paid to him, he will indeed be sued to recover the money.

The point is they do not want it to come to legal action. They want to convince him the best thing to do is give them one more season, and they will promise to try to do all they can to trade him, or release him next season so he can pursue his personal goals.

Here are a few examples:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3373026
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...a-grievance-workout-bonuses-patriots/2703989/

 

[cbs1507]

Are you sure?

What point are trying to make because you're not making any sense? Are you trying to insinuate a contradiction? If we are to focus on the sentence that you highlighted. If something has ALWAYS been a right, then it must have preceded a CBA agreed to in 2011. It's simple logic. Perhaps you cannot distinguish between the 2.

 

[sandman]

True, but he is currently being overpaid. He is delusional if he believes any team in the NFL would willingly pay him more than he is scheduled to make under the current contract. I don't think anyone is arguing whether AJ has a legal right to holdout. Instead, people are assessing his wisdom (or lack of), as well as his fulfillment of his moral and ethical responsibilities. Those are always valid concerns apart from legal responsibility.

Dre has been a Top 5 receiver in receptions and yards the last two seasons.

Is he overpaid because of his age? Because his production says he earned his paycheck the last two years compared to his peers.

 

[False Start]

Dre looking like a Kingpin

 

[NCTexan]

True, but he is currently being overpaid. He is delusional if he believes any team in the NFL would willingly pay him more than he is scheduled to make under the current contract. I don't think anyone is arguing whether AJ has a legal right to holdout. Instead, people are assessing his wisdom (or lack of), as well as his fulfillment of his moral and ethical responsibilities. Those are always valid concerns apart from legal responsibility.

Why do people keep saying this is about money and not results? Did I miss where he said he wants more money? I thought this was about losing.

 

[xtruroyaltyx]

If Dre refuses to play, and then refused to return money that has been paid to him, he will indeed be sued to recover the money.

What does something he hasn't done yet have to do with what is going on right now?

If you run across the freeway you might get hit by a car.

You're creating your own story line.


The point is, at this point, Dre has not done anything that his contract does not allow him to do.

It's like if you get a loan from somewhere. Right now Dre is late on a payment. There is language in the contract which accounts for situations like that.

Now if he were to go all out, I'm not paying this loan back...well then, that's something totally different...

That hasn't happened yet and really I doubt that what you have stated ever will.

Listen...I'm not thrilled about Dre not being there because I don't think it's what's best for the team. But his contract that he signed has 0 to do with that. From his perspective and the team's it's just business.

 

[Nitrofish]

What point are trying to make because you're not making any sense? Are you trying to insinuate a contradiction? If we are to focus on the sentence that you highlighted. If something has ALWAYS been a right, then it must have preceded a CBA agreed to in 2011. It's simple logic. Perhaps you cannot distinguish between the 2.

Yes, you contradicted yourself. In one post you said it was his right to hold out because the way the CBA was worded, then you said the CBA does not give rights. And went on to say some nonsense about by just existing you have rights to do whatever you want.

It is a strategy he can employ as a last resort, but it is not his right under the CBA, or there would be no fines for exercising such a right.

"Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory. Rights are of essential importance in such disciplines as law and ethics, especially theories of justice and deontology."

link

 

[xtruroyaltyx]

Why do people keep saying this is about money and not results? Did I miss where he said he wants more money? I thought this was about losing.

From Andre's uncle:

“Right now, that’s all that he can do,” Melton said. “We’ve done what we can do, so we’re just sitting there waiting.”

The rational thought pattern would be...well...ok...what are you waiting on....

Are they waiting on the team to get better? Not likely
Are they waiting on a trade? possible, but I don't think it's likely
Are they waiting on the Texans to do something with his contract? I think that's most likely...

And then you have other clues and things....Supposedly Andre went to the Texans last year about his contract. There was a report a little while ago that Andre wanted more guaranteed money because if he was going to go through this re-build he didn't want to just be cut next year when it was convenient for the team to do so.

I think it's about money from what I've read/heard....But I don't believe Andre has come out and directly said that and I don't expect him to either.

 

[dalemurphy]

Dre has been a Top 5 receiver in receptions and yards the last two seasons.

Is he overpaid because of his age? Because his production says he earned his paycheck the last two years compared to his peers.

Overpaid based on the market... If he was a free agent, he would not see any offers equal with what he is making now.

 

[dalemurphy]

Why do people keep saying this is about money and not results? Did I miss where he said he wants more money? I thought this was about losing.

He is either holding out because he wants his contract adjusted or because he wants traded... Either way, his market value is essential to the question. The Texans would be crazy to entice him with more money... And, the Texans would get almost nothing in return for trading his current contract. If he wants to be traded, he should be willing to cut his salary so the Texans can get some value in return for him.

 

[Nitrofish]

He is either holding out because he wants his contract adjusted or because he wants traded... Either way, his market value is essential to the question. The Texans would be crazy to entice him with more money... And, the Texans would get almost nothing in return for trading his current contract. If he wants to be traded, he should be willing to cut his salary so the Texans can get some value in return for him.

Agreed, but I am thinking he wants his cake and eat it too. But that contract and his age makes a trade unlikely.

 

[NCTexan]

I think it's about money from what I've read/heard....But I don't believe Andre has come out and directly said that and I don't expect him to either.

He is either holding out because he wants his contract adjusted or because he wants traded... Either way, his market value is essential to the question.

So it's speculation at this point. Got it.

 

[xtruroyaltyx]

So it's speculation at this point. Got it.

I have one dog. He was in the house. I come home, there's dog crap in the middle of the floor.

Is it speculation to think fido took a **** in the house?

Probably, but it's probably also just common sense.

You asked, I gave an explanation. I'll go with it's about the contract/trade and others can believe he's waiting on the team to get better.

It's no biggie.

 

[NCTexan]

I have one dog. He was in the house. I come home, there's dog crap in the middle of the floor.

Is it speculation to think fido took a **** in the house?

Probably, but it's probably also just common sense.

You asked, I gave an explanation. I'll go with it's about the contract/trade and others can believe he's waiting on the team to get better.

It's no biggie.

I mean, I agree it's about a trade most likely. I don't think he's holding out for more money from the Texans is all.

 

[xtruroyaltyx]

I mean, I agree it's about a trade most likely. I don't think he's holding out for more money from the Texans is all.

If it is about a trade, I hope the Texans grant him his wish.