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Bryce Young vs CJ Stroud
- Thread starter beerlover
- Start date
badboy
Hall of Fame
You can guarantee Caleb Williams next year
badboy
Hall of Fame
Jalen Hurts played his first three years at Alabama which is thought to have the best of everything annually. I would ecstatically take Jalen stats for Bryce Young. I am a fan of Hurts but think that Young is a better quarterback.
It did not take Hurts long at all in my opinion as he took over Wentz at the end of his rookie season and then had a very good sophomore season going eight and seven if I recall.
Stros fans used to say the same things about Crane and that turned out pretty good. Rebuilds are painful and really 3-4 bad yrs isn't that long. Ask Browns/Lions/Jags etc... if 3-4 yrs is a long time.
The 49ers are a good example of being bad for a few yrs and becoming really good.
Nope, but most likely Williams or Maye will be there when the Texans are picking.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Just me but I would rather swing and Miss than not swing at all.
Yep, BOB hasreally coached Young up well. LOL
Or is Young succeeding inspite of BOBlike many said happened when towel boy was here?
When you swing you gotta know the odds, you're hitting on an inside straight at best. Probably more like 1 in a million.
Number19
Hall of Fame
Let's say the Texans do what you want and sign a quality veteran QB. Then hit on two or three or four offensive players in the draft. And Metchie comes back. Are you that positive the Texans won't win enough games to put these two QB's out of reach, especially if teams won't trade? What's the backup plan? Draft your third or four best option.
Pretty sure because most rookies hit a wall.
Do you really believe Dalton/McCoy etc... is going to lead them to more than 4 wins? I dont
Number19
Hall of Fame
I happen to believe the Texans offense is three quality players - a deep threat WR, a Center and a RG - from making significant improvent. So yes, I believe more than 4 wins in '23 is not out of the realm of possibility. But there are too many question marks between now and the draft. Who knows?
Agree to disagree
They also lack the depth at most positions. to have a better season. I definitely want 2 high picks 2nd/3rd rd to be spent on 2 centers that can also play OG. (Depth along with Cann.)
I'm wanting Caserio to beef up the OL/DL in this draft.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
I’d rather not reach on over hyped RD1 QB’s either. Build the team first b/c it would be a completely new path for the Texans.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
I really don’t want to see Bruce “Dark Helmet” Young in a Texans uniform. He’s too small for my liking to perform well in a NFL pocket.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
So you got Young that is coming from an OB system to be then put into a Pep system?
A QB who is already undersized.
Why are we even talking about this guy?
Do you think Bryce Young will be ready to start day 1?
just for information's sake
www.profootballrumors.com
Latest On 2023 QB Draft Class
As the regular season continues to wind down for the teams near the bottom of the standings in the NFL, …
www.profootballrumors.com
Number19
Hall of Fame
What I noticed is the comment that few teams at the top of the draft are locks to draft qb.just for information's sake
Latest On 2023 QB Draft Class
As the regular season continues to wind down for the teams near the bottom of the standings in the NFL, …
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
I heard Lance Zierlein say when judging QBs in college you need to remove the wide open receiver completions because in college that happens a lot. You really want to focus in on the other completions.
That can really change the completion % for a QB that has elite receivers like Stroud did this past season. I am not saying he should not be drafted but his numbers are more skewed.
Also, the smaller college QBs have to deal with lesser talent so they are making more of those contested throws that may be in tight windows or using better ball placement.
It definitely makes sense to look at college QBs that way.
That can really change the completion % for a QB that has elite receivers like Stroud did this past season. I am not saying he should not be drafted but his numbers are more skewed.
Also, the smaller college QBs have to deal with lesser talent so they are making more of those contested throws that may be in tight windows or using better ball placement.
It definitely makes sense to look at college QBs that way.
Along with a change in playcalling
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
I agree somewhat, but in Stroud case, his #1 wr hasn't hardly played. Williams has the former best wr in the nation trophy winner. Peyton Manning had Pearless Price and Nash. All these bigtime college programs have wrs running butt naked in the secondary. Look at who Tua, Mac Jones, and Hurts.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
It’s not about the #1 receiver. It’s about taking out the throws to wide open receivers and only grading the receiver on the throws that were in coverage.
So while Manning was throwing to Nash and Price and had wide open throws he probably had throws that were covered well. If you only look at those throws and compare them to Ryan Leaf’s in the same circumstances you would be able to make a comparison. For example don’t take that literally.
Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Greg Cosell agreed with him. He was a guest on the show.
While Stroud doesn't have Smith-Njigba who is supposedly the #1, he does have Harrison Jr who I feel is quite a bit better and also has Egbuka and Fleming and Stover at TE. Harrison Jr would be a top 10 pick if he came out this year. So compared to Young and other QB's, Stroud is loaded with top receivers and rarely has to throw in a tight window
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
What separated Leaf from Manning was more maturity than ability. When Polian interviewed both and asked what was the 1st thing they would if drafted #1. Manning was like I want the playbook and get some film while Leaf stated he was going to get his crew and go kick it. Pollan said he knew right then whom he was drafting
You don't think Caleb got players at USC?
Who said anything about Caleb Williams? I was talking about Stroud compared to the other QB's in this draft
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
My previous post said - don’t take this literal when I spoke of manning and leaf. I was using their two names as a comparison because they went 1 and 2.
Those guys might be in a gimmick offense designed to get the ball out quickly. It's difficult to evaluate QBs in college because so much is different from the NFL.
What to look for? Traits. Does he have a good arm that can make NFL throws. Is he athletic enough to evade the pass rush? Accuracy. Whether a guy is tightly covered or is running wide open, is the ball where it needs to be? Competitiveness. Does he rally his teammates in the huddle and on the sideline? Poise. Does he bounce back after a bad drive or turnover? Improvision. Can he see the field in total and know where to go with the ball when a play breaks down.
A lot of little things go into finding the right QB. That's why it's so hard and there are so many mistakes made. Rarely is it something so obvious like "This guy is short". QB prospects can make up for physical limitations, but rarely can make up what's missing inside them.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
My post didn’t say it was the only thing people should look for…
I agree with you on 99% of you post. I was just sharing a little bit of knowledge that I heard on the radio. And Lance has better credibility than most radio personalities.
All of it goes into scouting a QB prospect that is arm chair GMs probably don’t do.
The second part of looking at a prospect’s height isn’t something new. That is part of the screening process or they wouldn’t have a height measurement at the combine. Or pro days. They measure hands too. I am sure you are well aware of this.
And I agree that skills or other intangibles can make up for height. Such as competitiveness, being clutch, processing information, etc.
But it is possible there are some aspects of a prospect that are too big to overcome.
You're right. I trust Lance's evaluations 99% more than my own. He has the time, the knowledge, and the contacts to thoroughly investigate the many, many prospects that come out. I have a handful of games I've watched without notes and a computer that I can use to look up stats. Basically, my gut (which is more formidable than ever). I know Lance looks at a ton of things. I was just pointing some things out.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
My apologies. I misread your post.
were you around when Lance used to post here? Here's thread from the 2008 draft where he discusses the draft with TT members.
Can they make up for being short?
How many QB's under 6'0 have won championships?
BTW, I'm a Young>Stroud guy.
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Texazan
Our HOF 34
Not many but I'd bet even the 6 footers and 6 1' guys fibbed on their height. Wison is under and accorrding to those that know him Brees was not 6' so you can put those two in that camp as SB winners. Different game now no doubt but Bart Starr was listed at 6′1″ Len Dawson at 6′, Joe Theismann, 6′0″, and Johny U at 6′1″. I'd bet all those had some fibbing going on....but back to your point its not a whole lot of them that's for sure.
There's more 6 ft QBs at the college level than under 6 ft. It's a matter of how big the pool is. A couple of years ago, there was the discussion of a 6'6" QB being too tall. How many 6'6" QBs have won the Super Bowl? Well, how many 6'6" QBs are there?
The tall and short QBs available have already made it through the filters to get to this point. They've proven the bias were wrong in their case. Now is the time to evaluate them on what they may be able to do at the NFL level.
The combine measurements stopped the fibbing.
The old guys you listed the fibbing was probably true. Also players were smaller back then. Also in addition to height Young has a smaller frame. You want to bet 1-1 on that?
What have they proven, other than the chances of winning a championship is slim with them as your QB?
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I think this is somewhat overstated by LZ...I think something that alot of these guys..including LZ don't take into account enough anymore is the playcaller/coaching & systems these guys are coming out of; that is to say how good/bad is that guy making his qb look.
For instance, Caleb Williams is now the 3rd Heisman produced by Lincoln Riley and his offense/playcalling. Obviously the other 2 guys that won it under him went #1 overall. But that sizzle those guys had in college has yet to translate over to the NFL. Sure the numbers look good/decent on paper from a distance, but all of the obvious flaws they had coming out...flaws that scouts were or so willing to overlook b/c of the monstrous numbers they put up under Riley, have now begun to rear their heads.
Kyler's size has seen him significantly hurt/hobbled in every year he's been in the league...his height has him getting an inordinate number of passes batted down..or sends him scrambling around like a chicken with its head cut off looking for better passing windows b/c he can't really see from the pocket.
Mayfield showed a tendency to throw horrible picks in college & had some maturity issues as well. Safe to say those things have continued in the NFL.
I say all this to say, Although i prefer Young, I think all this applies to Stroud at OSU..The kid has only ever operated from a clean pocket. The system he runs is 1-2 reads max & the ball is out..& although he's got a plus arm and a silky smooth release, he doesn't....or has never had to make throws through NFL windows consistently. The system he plays in has done him no favors and its unclear whether he can be that difference maker at QB we'd need him to be here without being surround by elite talent.
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Texazan
Our HOF 34
and that is why NC is the GM, good luck with that.
Number19
Hall of Fame
Is a small frame really an issue? Do you have a problem with slot receivers, who are often under 6'0" and small framed? They certainly take more of a pounding, physical game than qb's.
The issue of small frame (small boned) vs large frame (big boned) would be an interesting one.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Kyler Murray 5'10"
Bob Griese 6'1"
Baker Mayfield 6'1"
Y. A. Tittle 6'
Doug Flutie 5'10"
Eddie Lebaron 5'9"
Tyrod Taylor 6'1"
Russell Wilson 5'11"
Fran Tarkenton 6'
It's the ability to be a Waffle House cook on a weekend morning and not so much as how tall you are. That said, I'm not that big a fan of the running QB. I'd much rather have a smart arm than a fast leg.
And how can we forget that other great Cowboys QB, Woodrow Dantzler, 5'10".
Bob Griese 6'1"
Baker Mayfield 6'1"
Y. A. Tittle 6'
Doug Flutie 5'10"
Eddie Lebaron 5'9"
Tyrod Taylor 6'1"
Russell Wilson 5'11"
Fran Tarkenton 6'
It's the ability to be a Waffle House cook on a weekend morning and not so much as how tall you are. That said, I'm not that big a fan of the running QB. I'd much rather have a smart arm than a fast leg.
And how can we forget that other great Cowboys QB, Woodrow Dantzler, 5'10".
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Apples and oranges comparisons when talking the QB/slot positions.
There's a reason not many small guys have played QB in today's NFL. BTW, with Wilson/Murray hurt, who's the smallest QB now starting in the NFL?
If he has any sense he will look at what's happened to the QB's this yr and pass on Young.
Number19
Hall of Fame
Quiet a few at 6'1", but LAR's Justin Wolford and Miami's Tua Tagovailoa are both at 6'0".
Wolford doesn't really count as he's a backup
Tua's short, but he's listed at 6'1. 3 inches taller than Young.
Young's closer to 5'9 Flutie than 6'1 Tua. BTW, I expect Young to have aFlutie type career. Great and similar college careers, although Flutie had much less to work with. I expect similar NFL careers also. Exciting but no championships.
Number19
Hall of Fame
Tua was 6'0", 217 lbs at the combine.
Learning that Saban wears 3" shoe inserts, Young looks to be 5'11" - 6'0", which is what he is listed at.
Williams is only 6'1" and 210 lbs.
ESPN listed Tua at 6'1.
We will see at the Combine what Young's true height is. I'm guessing around 5'10.5.
Number19
Hall of Fame
Why do you think ESPN is correct and the measurements from the combine are wrong? Wikipedia has measurements from the combine.
I'm guessing 5'-11 1/2" for Young. We'll see.