"Because someday, someone will say -There goes Roy Hobbs, the best there ever in this game" !! The great ones often have dreams of greatness, or so I'm told !
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Watson’s a top 5 qb. Do you agree?
- Thread starter DanielTx
- Start date
"Because someday, someone will say -There goes Roy Hobbs, the best there ever in this game" !! The great ones often have dreams of greatness, or so I'm told !
Who wants to talk about the defense ? Most of those dudes will (should) be gone sooner than later.
I don't think I'm being overly critical of Watson at all .... I've gone so far as to say there aren't 3 other QB's I'd rather have to build around. Really only 1 ....
And this isn't just about this season , many of the things I criticize go back to last year and before.
You see him make a great play , I see him put himself in the position that it takes that great play to not be a negative play. He puts himself in those situations quite often.
You complain about what's around him ... I see those dudes getting open and Watson not taking those opportunities trying to take more. (watch the all22).
You tell me , when's the last time you saw Watson hit the top of his drop and let it fly ?
You can talk about how he's handicapped this year with no running game but this isn't just about this year , over two seasons they have scored a grand total of 2 FG's and 1 TD on opening drives with Watson at QB. You blame anything but Watson , I say a big part of that is on Watson. Its his decisions with the ball that matter more than anything else and quite often , he's making the wrong decision.
Last season they had 9 drives of 10 plays or more that resulted in a TD , this season they have had 5 such drives. The Chiefs had 5 in the first 3 games.
They average 5.9 plays per drive this season which is 25th. They are 22nd in average time per possession (2:40). They are dead last in # of offensive plays.
You should watch the all 22 film .... It'll change the entire perspective of the game. And I'm not talking about just the good plays that these Twitter fanboys post. He makes a lot of really good plays but he also leaves a whole lot of easy one's on the field.
You think he's just flat out missing those , not seeing them ?!
I don't , I'm almost convinced he see's those open short to intermediate routes and think's he can get more.
I was thinking the same thing when they bungled that snap against the Colts at the goal line - How many more ways can they find to lose a football game .... Then the fumble by Coutee and that last one where Watson got his hand tied up in a facemask ....
How many more ways can Schaub throw a pick 6 ?!
I said pretty much the same thing yesterday .....
Its odd how the same OL went from last years respectable production on the ground to this years total ineptitude.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
For the sake of argument lets say you are right, in your opinion is that something that can be coached out or is it something that a new HC will have to plan around? Also what would cause a QB as smart as Watson has shown himself to be to decide not to take the easy plays? By now he should know going for the big plays hasn't really worked in the last 4 years, he knows he is working with a very limited talent wise team and he knows that defenses have studied him inside and out now and figured out his strengths and weaknesses. So why would you say he still goes for 30+ when all he needs is 5-10?
I think you can change this as its simply philosophical. If you can show him why it isn't conducive to winning , I'm fairly certain he'll try adapt. He's made statements on the subject recently ....
Why does he do it ? There's a lot going on here , it starts with the confidence he has in his ability to get out of trouble. And there's no one more slippery ... just about every game he pulls of a Houdini act or two.
Some of it might be that he feels like he has to do everything because the team around him is poor to middling.
This ability to escape is what sets Watson apart from "everyone else". It's made him a whole Brinks truck full of $$$. He's done it at every level. It seems strange to ask him not to ... and that's not really what I'm saying either - I'm asking him to be more selective in when he takes those chances. Be more understanding of situations , down and distance , and taking advantage of coverages when the opportunity presents itself.
You look at how defenses have played him since early last year. They know what he's going to do and they use it against him , trying to keep him in the pocket and constrict that space without over pursuing or going out the back door , forcing him to make decisions from that collapsing pocket. Quite often , he gets out of it and beats them for a big play.
Really , looking back I think the blame goes on OB , he built the offense with many deep / long developing route combinations that plays into that chunk play philosophy and quite often resulted in Watson doing what Watson does .... Its fun to watch when he pulls off the seemingly impossible.
Its not so simple as stating going for 30+ on every play , that's an over simplification. His yards per attempt & yards per completion both lead the league by a fairly wide margin.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Nothing in this offense takes advantage of that mobility. It's just an oh @*!t button.
That's another reason I think he can do better in an offense designed to get him outside the pocket naturally & with the deep routes coming off of play action & otherwise getting the ball out quickly. When you look at the split stats , they support that as well. Under center and out of play action is where his passer rating is the highest.
Stats also show that when he gets it out quick he's much more effective a 10% swing in completion percentage and a 10 point swing in passer rating while the sack rate drops from 1 in 5.9 plays to 1 in 45.3. That figure is pretty eye popping.
I see him making decisions, good decisions (not necessarily right, or wrong) based on the defense. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. There are times, where he looks to throw the ball beyond the sticks, like on third down & sometimes he's in those situations because the two plays before didn't work. A lot of those times, at least one of those plays is a run that went for negative or less than three yards.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
How does all this reconcile with the game he had against the Colts where David Johnson had a 100 yard receiving day?
Texansballer74
The Marine
Lol already
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
I tend to have an opposite view here. I think Kelly has been intentionally moving the pocket more, which is one of the reasons Watson's taken fewer sacks this year.
I think I tend to have a more long-term view of things than many. I don't really see Watson's tutelage under BOB as lost time and opportunity. I see it as a critical step in his development as a well-rounded QB. Sure, the Texans could have taken advantage of his mobility more often during Years 1-3, but then would he have progressed as much as he has in pure pocket passing situations? BOB expects a QB to sit back and analyze all 411 options in Brady-like manner, which is hard to do. Watson clearly struggled with it early on, which is why I believe he resorted to using checkdowns so often. But if he can learn to play that type of game only half as well as Brady/Manning, but then exploit his ability to throw on the run unlike any other QB in the NFL (imo), he can become the most dangerous QB in the NFL, no question.
So in the long run, I see (most) of this is a positive (the accumulation of hits is definitely a negative). The Texans have no run game. Good. That means Watson has to learn to beat defenses when they are expecting the pass. Watson is down to spare parts on his receiving corps. Good. That means he'll need to be even more accurate since Chad Hansen and Keke Coutee have nowhere near the catch radius (or dependability and athleticism) of Nuk Hopkins. BOB has Watson sitting in the pocket like Tom Brady. Good. That means he has more opportunity to master the more cerebral and technical aspects of the QB position.
I'd rather see this type of progression than a scheme that leverages his physical tools for short term results at the expense of long-term development. We see these clips of Watson moving safeties and LBs with his eyes, turning his hips one way to fool a defender and then quickly switching back to his intended target, using pump fakes to open up throwing lanes, making adjustments pre-snap, dropping 30 yard dimes along the sidelines between a safety and a defensive back, etc. When do you ever see Lamar Jackson doing that? You can always learn to shut down a scheme. It's much tougher to shut down a QB who can think his way through things. And from everything I have learned about Watson, he is very diligent when it comes to film study.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
A lot of this depends on the offensive philosophy of the HC/coordinator. I posted a video earlier about the philosophical differences between Brady and Arians. Brady prefers to read the field from low to high and dink and dunk. Arians wants his QB to read the field from high to low and take deep shots often. I don't think it's simply a matter of what the QB is seeing and not seeing or what the QB wants to do and doesn't want to do.
People watch Brady slice up defenses with a thousand paper cuts and assume that this is the best way to approach the game. Simply because he plays that way doesn't mean it's the best way. He's a great player and that's what has worked for him. Peyton Manning was also a great player with a completely different approach.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
They all leave easy ones on the field. You want to be critical of those things he doesn’t do during games, that’s fine, as long as you recognize the overall body of work. The so called “fanboys” are so because the so called “haters” do not make that recognition and focus solely on the few bad plays. The “fanboys” simply point out the overall picture that the “haters” don’t acknowledge.
And I don’t know any “fanboy” here that doesn’t acknowledge Watson’s flaws. I know very few “haters” though, who give him credit for the overall body of work.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Where is this evidence that he's leaving all these 5-10 yard receptions on the table? On passing alone, PFF grades him at 91.9, only behind Rodgers and Brady. This accounts for missed reads, balls that should have been intercepted but were not, ill-advised passes that were somehow caught anyway, on-target passes that were dropped, balls that were thrown late, etc.
Rodgers, Mahomes and Watson actually hold the ball longer than most QBs and coincidentally also lead the NFL in net adjusted yards per attempt. I think this is in large measure because their ability to scramble compromises the integrity of opposing defenses. You're more likely to have a coverage bust somewhere on defense (or a defender playing man simply getting lost) when you are also worrying about a QB who might gash you for long runs on any given dropback. A lot of what I see isn't Watson throwing bombs downfield often. It's often him using the threat of his legs to pull defenders out of position and then hitting guys on the run. He's really incredible at doing that.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Yeah, I don't mind well-reasoned criticism. I do mind lazy, unsubstantiated criticism.
Even if you believe "my eyes tell me everything I need to know," you can at least take a quick look at the numbers to see if they jive with your perception. For example, someone once said Watson is "big play or bust," but then when I looked at the numbers, he ranked 7th in checkdown passes thrown between 2017 and 2019. Personally, I thought he went to the checkdown far too often, but then you've got posters saying he doesn't do it enough. That goes to show that two people can watch the same games and see completely different things. It's no different from eye witness testimony where one person identifies the killer as a 6'6 man wearing a white sweater and blue jeans while another witness describes a 5'9 man wearing a yellow sweater with blue shorts.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Since you've been going through the games.....how many times (est %) has Watson hit his 5 step drop, planted and had time to go through his progressions?
Texansballer74
The Marine
The reason for that is because those members really didn’t want Watson from the get go. They wanted Mahomas or Mitch. They also think it was only a Rick Smith pick. Therefore, they will be very critical of Watson’s play. Their argument to a degree will be compelling and sometimes well thought out. The lazy takes come from them just not wanting Watson in Htown.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
I don't really understand how people decide which QBs to lust over. I've seen a few posts here to the effect of "Oh no, we'll have to face Trevor Lawrence for the next 10+ years." He's 6'6. White. And he has a big arm. But in no way is he a better QB than DW4 was coming out of college. Half of the people lusting over him haven't really even seen him play.
Texansballer74
The Marine
I’ve watched him play and he’s pretty legit. Now will that translate over into the pros, well we’ll just have to wait and see. Jacksonville has a pretty decent receiving core and their offensive line isn’t too bad. Will they make him a day one starter or will they let him sit and learn for a few game-a year?
I agree he’s not better than Watson but he will be coming out as the number one pick.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
And this is why we can’t have any real discussions on this forum about Watson. Anybody says anything critical about him and then breaks it down why they are saying that and out come the “You’re just a Watson hater” crowd. Doesn’t matter how much you have praised him, doesn’t matter if you highlight his strengths all that matters is you dared to say anything other than he is the greatest thing to ever happen to the QB position and the sport of football as a whole.
It really makes you just want to put half this board on ignore because they have no interest in honest debate they just want to push their agenda.
It really makes you just want to put half this board on ignore because they have no interest in honest debate they just want to push their agenda.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
You’re new here but Corrosion has broken it down many, many times and had pictures and videos to back up what he is saying. Just some on here still go with the “Watson hater” label.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
It's no different the other way, with all the "fanboy" crap. Why do you just gloss over that part?
As I said in another post somewhere, it's not about those being critical of Watson. It's those who are being critical as if that's his overall body of work. You want to discuss a bad throw or stupid decision, that's fine, until you act like that's what he is.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Once again in your rush to attack anyone you think is criticizing Watson you have made a post that doesn’t seem to have a point or even make sense.
Yes some people wanted Mahomes over Watson, you know who one of those people was? ANDY REID, or maybe you think that he doesn’t know QB talent? Don’t think anybody has ever said they would rather we had drafted Trubisky over Watson.
So now you are saying Watson wasn’t only a Smith pick? So OB wanted him to? Does that mean you think OB was good at judging QBs? Also will you be calling Smith a liar seeing how just this year he went in depth on how he was the only person that wanted to draft Watson.
Arguments seem well thought out and compelling because, surprise, they are. It’s not hard to do when you care only about the facts and not trying to push an agenda. Calling everyone a “Watson hater” or “1000% club” does not equal a compelling or well thought out argument.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Didn’t gloss over anything but which side attacks the other the most? Also not sure what you mean by “that’s what he is” so what it’s ok to point out flaws but only if done in a way that is acceptable to you? His overall body of work has both good points and bad points as has been pointed out but apparently we are suppose to act like his overall is nothing but old and the bad are just random flukes that are rarely his fault?
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
I'm a new poster but I've been reading this board since 2017.
Pictures from casual observers don't mean much to me. Now if you're posting a film study where a real analyst of the game (i.e., Peyton Manning on Detail) is walking us through the playcall, the design, the situation, etc., and then he says "Watson probably should have done this," then that's something different. Manning's film study on Watson is excellent and he was able to point out a lot of flaws in his game. I'm obviously going to take that much more seriously than posters who consistently demonstrate low knowledge about various aspects of the game. We have posters who don't know the difference between a slant and a hitch but yet they're able to tell us somehow what a QB should have done in X situation.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Yeah the bolded parts show you don’t know what you are talking about.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
I guess you'll have to provide more examples of "then breaks it down" because I'm not seeing much in the way of educated analysis of plays. And I'm not saying that I'm qualified to do that. Based on what I've read over the years, I haven't come across a single poster that can give the type of insight that Rivers McCown provides. And most casual fans can't, which is why I don't take much of what they seriously. The only time I really like to chime in is when claims are made that are outright inaccurate and run contrary to verifiable statistical data.
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Then I'll have to assume you don't know what you are talking about and we can agree to put each other on ignore.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
So what you are saying is unless Manning or Romo or whoever comes on this forum and declares themselves you aren’t going to believe the person is educated about the game and knows what they are saying. So why bother to come here? Because even if they do, and I will tell you we have some people on here that would come very close to meeting that criteria, you’re not going to believe or consider anything they say.
It’s anonymous board so if you are looking for big names only then you are going to be out of luck.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
I don’t put people on ignore just for disagreeing with me. I’m here to talk football, Texans football to be exact, not find a sounding board that agrees with everything I say. I’m just saying don’t assume everyone here is just some casual fan sitting in their recliner, drinking beer and coaching to the TV.
We have some people on here that know their stuff and even have experience at NFL level football both playing and coaching. Doesn’t mean they are always right or you should always agree with them, I certainly don’t, but don’t write someone and what they say off because you don’t recognize their avatar name on the forums.
I don't think anybody is lusting after Lawrence. It's the same when they learned Foles was going to Jacksonville or when Luck & Mariota were in the division.
Teams with "good" QBs are generally harder to beat, unless we're that team with a good QB.
He said he was the only one who wanted to trade up to get him. Felt like the gist of the article was they were all ok draft Watson/Mahomes, just not at the cost of trading up
ClemsonTexan
Waterboy
Rivers McCown is a "big name"?
Texansballer74
The Marine
Boy nobody is attacking anyone so stop bringing that crap up. And for Christ sake stop trying to defend those that really doesn’t need your help. My observation is spot on so I give two F’s what you think. This youngster has done a remarkable job this year especially with the crap that was going on around him. But yet those same people you tend to agree with as well defend still beats down certain aspects that are not true. Like I said they didn’t want him here and that is not a fn attack on them. So stop trying to paint it as such. I’ve told you before and I will say it again, you can easily stop responding to me period.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
I could but it’s fun. Love how you keep saying it’s not an attack yet are using very aggressive language, mixed signals there. Speaking of “defending those that really don’t need your help” why do you defend Watson every time anyone says anything about him? That “youngster” is no kid he is a grown man playing a man’s sport and making millions doing it. You really think he cares what any of us say?
You say aspects are not true but you never actually debate the points and just start mocking the people making those points and calling them Watson haters, myself included, try actually countering the points if you can and you might find it makes for a more interesting and educational discussion.
And no I’m not talking about @steelbtexan, I love the guy but I will be the first to admit you're not getting far if you plan to change his mind. As for the rest of us stopping lumping everybody together. Yes many of us wanted Mahomes but that doesn’t mean we are unhappy with Watson. Let me ask you if it was reversed and we had Mahomes over Watson would you be unhappy?
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
You started with Manning as your example and in a later post said McCown. I was competing on your point that you’re example of a “real analyst of the game” was Manning.
Texansballer74
The Marine
You win dude
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Deshaun Watson has dropped back to pass 1,709 times in 52 games as a starter. I don't care who wants to supply the images and breakdowns but I figure there has been a handful at best. Of those handful, they are treated as gospel in bereating Watson as a QB who is either stupid, lacks the ability to lead an NFL offense, or will never amount to anyhing.......all this BS without ever taking into consideration the team that has surrounded this QB for 52 games. Based on his winning record and overall stats.....the one's missing the boat are the one's standing around and thinking he doesn't have the ability to win in the NFL. He's been winning with one of the worst shite-shows in the NFL.
Rivers McCown is pretty good for a cheerleader. I'd be shocked if I ever saw a, "this is what Watson should have done." tweet from him.
If all you're going to seriously consider is that kind of thing then you'll naturally be slanted.
Sorry we don't meet your bar for "education" but this is a message board. I'm going to post my opinion. If it doesn't make sense to you, that's fine. This is a message board.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Exactly that’s what so freaking puzzling to me. Yes he has areas that need improvement. But under the stinky circumstance he has improved on a lot of those areas these select few complained about. And instead of giving this young his just do, we’re still talking about holding onto the ball too long. We’re still talking about him not taking or missing his hot read receiver in the flat. 4400+ yards 30 Touchdowns, 3 rushing touchdowns and only 6 interceptions, add in a 70% passer rating. What makes it stand out is: some said he couldn’t make players around him better. Well two practice squad players and Keke out there looking pretty darn good wouldn’t you say. That atrocity of a line play but he still drop 300+ yards a game. Then how many times has he put this team position to win only for the defense to blow it or another player screws up?
theCATALYST
Football Messiah
No amount of persuasion and facts will change some folks attitude towards Watson. In my opinion he is #4 QB in Todays NFL behind only Wilson, Rogers, Mahomes.
whodknee
Working Class Hero
Is Watson a top 5 QB? Too many variables. Coaching, surrounding cast etc. Stats..Yes, He is. If I had to have a game winning drive on one of the 2 best teams this would be my list in no particular order of current QBs.
1. Mahomes
2. Brees
3. Wilson
4. Rodgers
5.Rivers
6. ?
1. Mahomes
2. Brees
3. Wilson
4. Rodgers
5.Rivers
6. ?
I like Watson. I think he's really good. I think he's improved his game a lot since leaving Clemson. I hope he'll win us a Super Bowl & if we don't in the next 4 years, it won't be because Watson isn't good enough.
That said. Top 5 QBs right now. I don't like Rodgers, but can't deny. Rodgers, Mahomes, Brady, Brees, Wilson. I'd say Watson is in the next 5 with Josh Allen, Matt Ryan, Tannehill, & Hebert.
Edit: I forgot Prescott, he belongs in the 2nd group somewhere.
Texansballer74
The Marine
And that’s fair even though I wouldn’t put Brees there this year because of the games he missed.
Decim8
Veteran
Personally I'd swap matt with Ben but otherwise that's a pretty good list
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
I could easily pull Rivers and insert Watson right there.
whodknee
Working Class Hero
Or Big Ben
whodknee
Working Class Hero
And I think Brady can still lead a team down field
FuzzyLogic
Mathematically Possible
That's the problem with the 'Top 5' mentality - certainly the top 8 or so QB's in the league anyone can make an argument that QB x, y, or z should be in the top 5 (from those 8) may depend on if they are your teams QB, or they have a play style that matches with what you like to watch, or their team may be having a really good season (I'd put Rivers here). It's too subjective.
I don't really care if Watson is top 5 - I think he's pretty darn good and if you can't win with a Watson at QB, then as an organization you are terrible at building a team.
I don't really care if Watson is top 5 - I think he's pretty darn good and if you can't win with a Watson at QB, then as an organization you are terrible at building a team.
True.
The Patriots were terrible at building teams until Brady.
The Saints were terrible at building teams until Brees.
The Chiefs were terrible at building teams until Mahomes.
The Packers had been terrible at building teams for a good while, until Favre.
The Colts were terrible at building teams until Peyton.
My fault for thinking that way. But I was hoping the losing was over & BO'b would be fired because he failed to get past the divisional round.
I'm happy he's gone. But I expected Mercilus to make a game saving play or two. But since he doesn't like Watson... he refused to attack anyone with the ball.