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Rebuilding this team

Corrosion said:
One quibble here .... on WFV and Watt.

You are likely to get a #3 comp pick for WFV if he walks as a FA - somewhere around pick #100ish.

But if you move him now for a and don't take back salary , you create actual cap space on this years cap which if unused gets rolled over onto next years cap - you are basically doubling his cap space with the roll over.
If he walks as a FA he's off your books and you likely get that comp pick but you don't get the added benefit of the roll over.

Same goes for Watt .... Shedding $17.5m from next years cap and $8m plus from this years in the form of roll over.

That cap space may be more valuable than a draft pick one round higher.

The rest .... yeah , dump them for whatever you can get.
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Fuller is going to create cap space anyway. He's making 10m this year and can walk. If he walks, 10m walks. You might want to keep him for that 10m. Moreso in rebuilding, they a gm to work those middle rd picks and coaches who can coach them up. I never understood for the life of me why they made the decision to move Howard to right tackle vs lg. Its not easy to switch stances like that especially after playing that position your entire life. Winston made the move, but Winston was originally recruited as a te.
 
leebigeztx said:
Fuller is going to create cap space anyway. He's making 10m this year and can walk. If he walks, 10m walks. You might want to keep him for that 10m. Moreso in rebuilding, they a gm to work those middle rd picks and coaches who can coach them up. I never understood for the life of me why they made the decision to move Howard to right tackle vs lg. Its not easy to switch stances like that especially after playing that position your entire life. Winston made the move, but Winston was originally recruited as a te.
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Howard played both RT/LT in college.
 
leebigeztx said:
Fuller is going to create cap space anyway. He's making 10m this year and can walk. If he walks, 10m walks. You might want to keep him for that 10m. Moreso in rebuilding, they a gm to work those middle rd picks and coaches who can coach them up. I never understood for the life of me why they made the decision to move Howard to right tackle vs lg. Its not easy to switch stances like that especially after playing that position your entire life. Winston made the move, but Winston was originally recruited as a te.
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The difference between moving Fuller now and letting him walk as a FA is $5,716,125 in cap roll over on top of the $10,162,000 he accounts for currently.
 
JPPT1974 said:
Really feel bad for Watson. As really he can't do it all alone. Need help there. Rebuild the team around him.
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Yes any team should be built around the QB offensively and if you have a superstar like JJ in his younger days, D around them.

My 2 cents is draft picks for Fuller, Watt and possibly Cooks could be very helpful bringing in younger cheaper guys for the future.
 
steelbtexan said:
Howard played both RT/LT in college.
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To me, it was typical mishandling of oline players. Remember how all camp Davenport played LT, then next thing he's right tackle. Through most successful history if a LT is struggling , he moves to lg. Hell, alot of times they will start a future LT at lg like Ogden. Remember when Leonard Davis struggled at left tackle in Arizona? Dallas signed him to play lg and he had a very good career.
 
Corrosion said:
The difference between moving Fuller now and letting him walk as a FA is $5,716,125 in cap roll over on top of the $10,162,000 he accounts for currently.
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Another point to consider is that Texans have already spent the $10 million ‘saved’ when Fuller walks in the way they structured the Watson/Tunsil and other deals.
Texans don’t have space to resign Fuller to anything substantial next year.

Cooks’ money next year sits at $12 million, with no dead money. Cooks has been ok this year, but $12m doesnt look likely to happen.

Randall Cobb’s cap hit next year is $10.6m. With $12.25m dead money that is probably the worst contract we hold on O. Absolute madness.

How will Cooks/Fuller feel when the Texans bring them to the table offering less than the WR3 is getting?
 
badboy said:
Yes any team should be built around the QB offensively and if you have a superstar like JJ in his younger days, D around them.

My 2 cents is draft picks for Fuller, Watt and possibly Cooks could be very helpful bringing in younger cheaper guys for the future.
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Unfortunately Watt is untouchable right now. So you will have to take him off of your trade list.
 
leebigeztx said:
To me, it was typical mishandling of oline players. Remember how all camp Davenport played LT, then next thing he's right tackle. Through most successful history if a LT is struggling , he moves to lg. Hell, alot of times they will start a future LT at lg like Ogden. Remember when Leonard Davis struggled at left tackle in Arizona? Dallas signed him to play lg and he had a very good career.
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Agree. I'm not sure if it's arrogance or incompetence that they continue to move the oline players from one side to the other. Especially when players say because the footwork is opposite from one side to the next, it's not as easy as people think. To your point on LG to LT:

Vikings OG Geoff Schwartz told me it was much easier moving from guard to tackle, or vice versa, than switching from side to side.

“If you look at most lines, the backup LT is the LG, or he's on the bench. Both teams I've played on, our backup LT was the LG.”

It seems it's a tough enough transition, without significant lead time, that teams would rather put a far less athletically able player on an island at left tackle than expect the guy on the right to swap sides in-game.

“It's very difficult for guys to be able to effectively play on both sides of the line without long hours practicing it,” Schwartz went on.

“That is why you don't often see linemen switching sides of the ball for injury or performance. Playing offensive line is a very technical position. Being a great athlete and a physical player can only take you so far if you don't use proper technique. You must drill over and over again to get the footwork and hand placement down. On top of that, mentally switching things over in your head can be tough at first. You’re used to reacting to movement on one side of the line of scrimmage, now it’s happening on the opposite side”.

https://www.pff.com/news/switching-sides
 
welsh texan said:
Another point to consider is that Texans have already spent the $10 million ‘saved’ when Fuller walks in the way they structured the Watson/Tunsil and other deals.
Texans don’t have space to resign Fuller to anything substantial next year.

Cooks’ money next year sits at $12 million, with no dead money. Cooks has been ok this year, but $12m doesnt look likely to happen.

Randall Cobb’s cap hit next year is $10.6m. With $12.25m dead money that is probably the worst contract we hold on O. Absolute madness.

How will Cooks/Fuller feel when the Texans bring them to the table offering less than the WR3 is getting?
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After a season in which the offense has been criticized as much as ours for bringing in these “has beens” to replace the “great” Nuk Hopkins, I’m thinking Cooks and Cobb might be open to restructuring to stay in a more stable situation with a qb they believe in...at least I hope that’s how they’d think about it. Fuller would be a little tricky, but I think if he was approached the right way, he might be open to staying as well.
 
76Texan said:
Has exclusively played right tackle in college after converting from tight end. Range and lateral mobility may be better suited for duties in a zone scheme. Has upside on the move and in pass pro but he needs to get stronger and improve technique.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/tytus-howard
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FALSE!!!

Howard has grown from a high school quarterback and basketball star into a NFL prospect on the offensive line. He redshirted as a tight end for the Hornets in 2014 but managed to work his way onto the field at right tackle the following season (six starts in eight games played). Howard started seven games on the rights side his sophomore year before replacing NFL draft pick Jylan Ware at left tackle, starting all 11 games in 2017. SWAC coaches named him the Hornets' only first-team all-conference selection in 2018 after he started 10 games at right tackle.

www.nfl.com

Tytus Howard Draft and Combine Prospect Profile | NFL.com

All Combine and Draft-Related Analysis, News, Video, and Biographical Information for Tytus Howard
www.nfl.com www.nfl.com
 
JPPT1974 said:
Really feel bad for Watson. As really he can't do it all alone. Need help there. Rebuild the team around him.
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I understand your perspective, but I've got 40 million reasons why I can't feel bad for him.

Mr teX said:
After a season in which the offense has been criticized as much as ours for bringing in these “has beens” to replace the “great” Nuk Hopkins, I’m thinking Cooks and Cobb might be open to restructuring to stay in a more stable situation with a qb they believe in...at least I hope that’s how they’d think about it. Fuller would be a little tricky, but I think if he was approached the right way, he might be open to staying as well.
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Why the quote marks around "great"?

Nuk.png
 
Earl34 said:
Agree. I'm not sure if it's arrogance or incompetence that they continue to move the oline players from one side to the other. Especially when players say because the footwork is opposite from one side to the next, it's not as easy as people think. To your point on LG to LT:

Vikings OG Geoff Schwartz told me it was much easier moving from guard to tackle, or vice versa, than switching from side to side.

“If you look at most lines, the backup LT is the LG, or he's on the bench. Both teams I've played on, our backup LT was the LG.”

It seems it's a tough enough transition, without significant lead time, that teams would rather put a far less athletically able player on an island at left tackle than expect the guy on the right to swap sides in-game.

“It's very difficult for guys to be able to effectively play on both sides of the line without long hours practicing it,” Schwartz went on.

“That is why you don't often see linemen switching sides of the ball for injury or performance. Playing offensive line is a very technical position. Being a great athlete and a physical player can only take you so far if you don't use proper technique. You must drill over and over again to get the footwork and hand placement down. On top of that, mentally switching things over in your head can be tough at first. You’re used to reacting to movement on one side of the line of scrimmage, now it’s happening on the opposite side”.

https://www.pff.com/news/switching-sides
Click to expand...

That was all O’Brien’s vision. He wanted his offensive linemen to be versatile instead of focusing on their natural positions. To make matters worse, he thought it was difficult to train up rookie left tackles.
 
Last edited:
Texansballer74 said:
That was all O’Brien’s vision. He wanted his offensive linemen to be versatile instead of focusing on their national positions. To make matters worse, he thought it was difficult to train up rookie left tackles.
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O'Brien would have been a great character in the Dilbert comic strip. The smart guy who over engineers everything or always recreating the wheel.
 
Double Barrel said:
I understand your perspective, but I've got 40 million reasons why I can't feel bad for him.



Why the quote marks around "great"?

View attachment 6937
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Ehh I don’t toss that word around lightly. Nuk puts up numbers but I’ve never viewed him in the same class as Megatron, Larry Fitzgerald and other guys I’ve viewed over the years as truly unstoppable great WR’s that tilt schemes.
 
JPPT1974 said:
Really feel bad for Watson. As really he can't do it all alone. Need help there. Rebuild the team around him.
Click to expand...

I would not be surprised if he was gone in 2yrs. A HC and GM really tend to love drafting the QB. Would not shock me to see that happening. They will not say it to avoid not getting the job. But after that...you never know what will happen.
 
Mr teX said:
Ehh I don’t toss that word around lightly. Nuk puts up numbers but I’ve never viewed him in the same class as Megatron, Larry Fitzgerald and other guys I’ve viewed over the years as truly unstoppable great WR’s that tilt schemes.
Click to expand...

I would definitely put him in that class. He definitely tilted schemes.
 
steelbtexan said:
So did AJ, where did it get the Texans? Fact is where did Megatron's talents get the Lions? Paying Wr's is a recepie for failure.
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You may be onto something there ....

AJ never sniffed one
Megatron didn't either
Randy Moss was oh so close to perfection 18-1 and never won a ring.
AJ Green has been stuck in mediocrity or worse forever.
Julio Jones - got close too.
Larry Fitzgerald - Nodda.
DHop - Nodda.
 
steelbtexan said:
So did AJ, where did it get the Texans? Fact is where did Megatron's talents get the Lions? Paying Wr's is a recepie for failure.
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Sammy Watkins was at the top of the cap space list for WR last year, and he got a ring.

He drops to 5th this year, but Hill climbs to 3rd.
They might very well get another ring each this year.
 
Corrosion said:
You may be onto something there ....

AJ never sniffed one
Megatron didn't either
Randy Moss was oh so close to perfection 18-1 and never won a ring.
AJ Green has been stuck in mediocrity or worse forever.
Julio Jones - got close too.
Larry Fitzgerald - Nodda.
DHop - Nodda.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the Falcons got to the SB.

D. Thomas was no. 3 when the Broncos last won the SB.
(With Manning at no. 6 on the QB list).
 
Carr Bombed said:
I would definitely put him in that class. He definitely tilted schemes.
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Ehh it’s hit or miss with Nuk. Quiet as it’s kept, Nuk doesn’t draw the type of attention those guys drew. His Playoff numbers are trash for the most part..& even last year The Bills thought enough to single him up with Tredavious White for a large part of the game..... and were successful for the most part. You take away the 1 big play he did have in that game..he had like 50-60 yards receiving. And of course his numbers look great in the KC playoff game, but do you remember him being a factor at all? I sure as hell don’t.
 
Mr teX said:
Ehh it’s hit or miss with Nuk. Quiet as it’s kept, Nuk doesn’t draw the type of attention those guys drew. His Playoff numbers are trash for the most part..& even last year The Bills thought enough to single him up with Tredavious White for a large part of the game..... and were successful for the most part. You take away the 1 big play he did have in that game..he had like 50-60 yards receiving. And of course his numbers look great in the KC playoff game, but do you remember him being a factor at all? I sure as hell don’t.
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Isn't big play what make a receiver special?
 
Mr teX said:
Ehh it’s hit or miss with Nuk. Quiet as it’s kept, Nuk doesn’t draw the type of attention those guys drew. His Playoff numbers are trash for the most part..& even last year The Bills thought enough to single him up with Tredavious White for a large part of the game..... and were successful for the most part. You take away the 1 big play he did have in that game..he had like 50-60 yards receiving. And of course his numbers look great in the KC playoff game, but do you remember him being a factor at all? I sure as hell don’t.
Click to expand...
Also:

DeAndre Hopkins played second half of AFC Divisional Round loss to Chiefs with a broken rib, per report

www.google.com
 
Mr teX said:
Ehh it’s hit or miss with Nuk. Quiet as it’s kept, Nuk doesn’t draw the type of attention those guys drew. His Playoff numbers are trash for the most part..& even last year The Bills thought enough to single him up with Tredavious White for a large part of the game..... and were successful for the most part. You take away the 1 big play he did have in that game..he had like 50-60 yards receiving. And of course his numbers look great in the KC playoff game, but do you remember him being a factor at all? I sure as hell don’t.
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He currently leads the league in receptions & yards. Defenses are dumb if they're not paying extra attention to him.
 
dream_team said:
He currently leads the league in receptions & yards. Defenses are dumb if they're not paying extra attention to him.
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And I’m telling you brother that him leading in receptions and yardage doesn’t mean a whole lot b/c he doesn’t really put the fear of god in defenses like a Tyreke Hill does a guy who tilts an entire defensive scheme b/c he’s that dangerous. Nuk’s very good at what he does which is the contested catch, but a qb given the choice of throwing a 50/50 ball to Nuk or throwing to a guy like say Julio Jones whose gonna get his separation, qb’s would favor Julio every time.

To me Nuk’s always been a slightly better version of Anquan Boldin. The fundamental difference between the 2 has been health and that Nuk has been seen as a #1 pretty much his entire career and the targets he has recieved throughout reflect that. Boldin had a few years where he had that & he put up similar numbers to Nuk. he also mostly played in a time where teams were still enamored with the measurables and the college game hadn’t yet infiltrated the NFL.
 
Mr teX said:
And I’m telling you brother that him leading in receptions and yardage doesn’t mean a whole lot b/c he doesn’t really put the fear of god in defenses like a Tyreke Hill does a guy who tilts an entire defensive scheme b/c he’s that dangerous. Nuk’s very good at what he does which is the contested catch, but a qb given the choice of throwing a 50/50 ball to Nuk or throwing to a guy like say Julio Jones whose gonna get his separation, qb’s would favor Julio every time.

To me Nuk’s always been a slightly better version of Anquan Boldin. The fundamental difference between the 2 has been health and that Nuk has been seen as a #1 pretty much his entire career and the targets he has recieved throughout reflect that. Boldin had a few years where he had that & he put up similar numbers to Nuk. he also mostly played in a time where teams were still enamored with the measurables and the college game hadn’t yet infiltrated the NFL.
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I was a bìgger JJ's fan out of college than Nuke's, but now I can't say I favor one over the other.
Hopkins won me over with his improvement year over year despite having a bunch of lesser-names at QB while Jones has the good fortune of having a good one throwing him the ball all these years.
Their first down making ability/target is roughly the same (slightly to Jones), but the TD rate goes to Hopkins.
And Jones play on a team with a lot of weapons, especially early on, such that the oppponent can't really afford to double team any one guy, including the TE, who can make the safety pay, too.
 
Mr teX said:
And I’m telling you brother that him leading in receptions and yardage doesn’t mean a whole lot b/c he doesn’t really put the fear of god in defenses like a Tyreke Hill does a guy who tilts an entire defensive scheme b/c he’s that dangerous. Nuk’s very good at what he does which is the contested catch, but a qb given the choice of throwing a 50/50 ball to Nuk or throwing to a guy like say Julio Jones whose gonna get his separation, qb’s would favor Julio every time.

To me Nuk’s always been a slightly better version of Anquan Boldin. The fundamental difference between the 2 has been health and that Nuk has been seen as a #1 pretty much his entire career and the targets he has recieved throughout reflect that. Boldin had a few years where he had that & he put up similar numbers to Nuk. he also mostly played in a time where teams were still enamored with the measurables and the college game hadn’t yet infiltrated the NFL.
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Yup. We're gonna have to strongly disagree here. I see him more like Fitzgerald rather than Boldin.

What makes Nuk great is he doesn't need separation to be "open". That's why no matter the QB or system, he produces.
 
dream_team said:
Yup. We're gonna have to strongly disagree here. I see him more like Fitzgerald rather than Boldin.

What makes Nuk great is he doesn't need separation to be "open". That's why no matter the QB or system, he produces.
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Hard to follow the conversation when Mr tex is on ignore for me.. Whatever. Is the topic about having talent at wr or cap space dedicated to a wr? It doesn't matter. On the rare occasion a franchise has marquee talent you go with it. If we can't make it work with Hopkins its just bad cap/talent management.
 
I just read an article on the Google home page from the NFL. Texans have announced they’re open for business with 4 untouchables: Watson, Watt, Tunsil, and Howard.

Maybe Watt has mentioned his willingness to re-structure his contract in order to retire in Houston. Hope so, otherwise making him off limits doesn’t really make sense.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
I just read an article on the Google home page from the NFL. Texans have announced they’re open for business with 4 untouchables: Watson, Watt, Tunsil, and Howard.

Maybe Watt has mentioned his willingness to re-structure his contract in order to retire in Houston. Hope so, otherwise making him off limits doesn’t really make sense.
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Trading Watt has always been considered a bad PR move.
 
powda said:
Agreed, but for the right deal it would be worthwhile.
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To you and me sure but not for many of people I know. Probably not for Janice either. It is possible Texans said Watt is untouchable to drive up interest and return. My most recent info has only Fuller and Cooks receiving much interest. Hopefully, behind scenes negotiations going on.
 
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