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Olinemen in the 2019 draft.

steelbtexan said:
Like I said before getting who I consider a decade long franchise LT that can start day one is worth a Risner who probably won't be there anyways or Long.

I can see how you feel differently. But give me the one guy rather than 2 maybes.

Just a different way of looking at it. Protecting Watson from taking 62 sacks is my number 1 priority and Williams will greatly help with this. Certainly more than a project like Howard. Although I would not mind if Gaine traded up up for Williams in the 1st and drafted Howard or Risner at 54. That's how much I want the OL to add premium talent so we can see Watson at his best.

I think Gaine most likely will see things the way you do more than me.
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I agree with all that you said. It's a natural reflex to want all the players we can possibly get to improve our team. However, I've got this little voice that keeps saying that Watson is the QB that can get us to the SuperBowl. There are precious few you can say that about .... normally in 2 or 3 drafts combined. I'll bet I have read and listened to 50 or more mock drafts over the past week or so. It is amazing how utterly and completely different they are. My gut is telling me that we've got to get the best protection we can get .... and I have become convinced, that we have to get Dillard. That will most likely not happen .... but if it does, I hope we put McCoy right beside him !
 
justmy2cents said:
I agree with all that you said. It's a natural reflex to want all the players we can possibly get to improve our team. However, I've got this little voice that keeps saying that Watson is the QB that can get us to the SuperBowl. There are precious few you can say that about .... normally in 2 or 3 drafts combined. I'll bet I have read and listened to 50 or more mock drafts over the past week or so. It is amazing how utterly and completely different they are. My gut is telling me that we've got to get the best protection we can get .... and I have become convinced, that we have to get Dillard. That will most likely not happen .... but if it does, I hope we put McCoy right beside him !
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Just keep in mind that many of those mocks don't have a clue to what teams actually need or have actually watched player games or film. The really good guys after say pick 10 are accurate perhaps 30 percent. Also most mocks even this close to draft are first round only. An example would be having Giants select RT Mann at #6. Very cool and a needed spot filled; however there will be several very good RT later even as low a round three. So mock looks good and gets clicks but that is not the way a war room works.
 
Wolf12339 said:
Moving up for Williams or Dillard to you is worth Risner and Tytus Howard? Or Risner and David Long? Neither player is worth giving up a 2nd rounder.
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To me, yes. Getting one guy who is a potential pro bowl level player at the LT position is worth more than two good but not great players, especially if one of those is a developmental guy. Give me the elite player at the premium position.
 
YoungTexanFan said:
To me, yes. Getting one guy who is a potential pro bowl level player at the LT position is worth more than two good but not great players, especially if one of those is a developmental guy. Give me the elite player at the premium position.
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Andre Dillard is no where close to a Elite prospect. Plenty of higher rated Left tackles have come out in previous years and been huge busts. Give me the two good players.
 
Wolf12339 said:
Andre Dillard is no where close to a Elite prospect. Plenty of higher rated Left tackles have come out in previous years and been huge busts. Give me the two good players.
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I will take my chances with either

Jonah or Dillard over 2 lower rated prospects.
 
JB said:
Yes, but not at the expense of a 2nd this year
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For an above avg LT I would gladly give up a 2nd. (Which I think Dillard/Jonah will be) Gotta keep Watson from getting sacked 62 times at all costs.
 
steelbtexan said:
For an above avg LT I would gladly give up a 2nd. (Which I think Dillard/Jonah will be) Gotta keep Watson from getting sacked 62 times at all costs.
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I wouldn't mind 23 and 86 and a 2020 2nd. Too many holes to give up a prime pick this year
 
JB said:
I wouldn't mind 23 and 86 and a 2020 2nd. Too many holes to give up a prime pick this year
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They aren't winning the SB next yr anyways so they should plan for the future while trying to keep Watson healthy.

I could go for this trade.
 
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Wolf12339 said:
Andre Dillard is no where close to a Elite prospect. Plenty of higher rated Left tackles have come out in previous years and been huge busts
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I would agree and disagree with your post. Dillard's knock as a run blocker keeps him from being a no doubt top 5 LT prospect. There haven't been 'plenty" of LT busts in the past 8 years, but there have been Luke Joeckel (2013 #2), Greg Robinson (2014 #2), and Erik Flowers (2015 #9). Why did they "bust"? Because they couldn't handle the pass blocking duties of a LT. That's Dillard's strength. He may not have the highest upside, but Dillard's bust potential is low.
 
Lucky said:
I would agree and disagree with your post. Dillard's knock as a run blocker keeps him from being a no doubt top 5 LT prospect. There haven't been 'plenty" of LT busts in the past 8 years, but there have been Luke Joeckel (2013 #2), Greg Robinson (2014 #2), and Erik Flowers (2015 #9). Why did they "bust"? Because they couldn't handle the pass blocking duties of a LT. That's Dillard's strength. He may not have the highest upside, but Dillard's bust potential is low.
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Top 5 LT in this draft isn't saying much. Jonah who is known as a technician was great at RT and was even better on blindside last two seasons; at least Dillards equal as pass blocker and much better as RT and yet he will probably go no higher than 17. Jags should take Taylor a very good RT. I truly hope Dillard goes before Jonah as well as Greg Little who if he decides to bring it all season could be best over all OT. Even if Dillard is as good as some think, with our RBs, he can still allow #4 to get hurt. Dillard at 23 is acceptable to me but not if we give up anything.
 
Lucky said:
What I meant to say:


Can you decipher that now?
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Oh I can decipher but still groggy from hitting my head when I fell down in surprise. I hope he goes that high as that would benefit Houston. My first reaction was to start posting players better than him and why but want to take jetski out before sun goes down.
 
badboy said:
Oh I can decipher but still groggy from hitting my head when I fell down in surprise. I hope he goes that high as that would benefit Houston. My first reaction was to start posting players better than him and why but want to take jetski out before sun goes down.
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Except that his run blocking skills will knock him down... I think you missed that part of Lucky's post
 
JB said:
Except that his run blocking skills will knock him down... I think you missed that part of Lucky's post
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Oh I get it but can't see him being that much better. Anyway moving on to other topic hopefully as draft edges closer. JB, if Texans draft solid say two Online and two corners plus depth elsewhere, what would your positions for 2020 draft?
 
badboy said:
Oh I get it but can't see him being that much better. Anyway moving on to other topic hopefully as draft edges closer. JB, if Texans draft solid say two Online and two corners plus depth elsewhere, what would your positions for 2020 draft?
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CB and OL, LB both inside and out and perhaps RB

edit: But I haven't studied the 2020 draft class yet
 
All of this discussion is interesting because I'm no expert on College players or on OL technique. But this I do know: there will be big surprises in the Draft. No matter who falls to the Texans or who they get by jumping up or back in the Draft order...and no matter if Gaine proves to be a subtle genius when it comes to picking players...I have a concern that's just as big if not bigger. Are the guys OB has around him able to coach OL players up? Can Devlin and his assistants turn a below average guy into an average guy or an average guy into a true plus player, or a plus player into an All Pro? So far, there's little evidence that they can. Gaine is bound to see that. I'd love to know the real inside, decision-maker attitudes and discussions about such things, especially about the OL possibilities. Now THAT would be interesting.
 
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HaveMercy said:
All of this discussion is interesting because I'm no expert on College players or on OL technique. But this I do know: there will be big surprises in the Draft. No matter who falls to the Texans or who they get by jumping up or back in the Draft order...and no matter if Gaine proves to be a subtle genius when it comes to picking player...I have a concern that's just as big if not bigger. Are the guys OB has around him able to coach OL players up? Can Devlin and his assistants turn a below average guy into an average guy or an average guy into a true plus player, or a plus player into an All Pro? So far, there's little evidence that they can. Gaine is bound to see that. I'd love to know the real inside, decision-maker attitudes and discussions about such things, especially about the OL possibilities. Now THAT would be interesting.
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This forum is just about players, not coaching or scheme. That's on the other thread.
 
Then let me clarify my comments, because I think this is about offensive linemen coming out this year. We look at a guy's skillset, potential, measurables, and film, but we should also consider who might benefit the most and least from the Texans' coaches. We're not just picking a player, we're hopefully picking a player who can grow over time to be really good. None of the potential draftees are finished products. Because guys respond to coaching and schemes differently, how they might respond in THIS situation should be taken into account when evaluating OL prospects.
 
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Texansphan said:
Yeah it's early for draft threads with Texans about to go to the postseason but it is pretty obvious to even a casual fan that our franchise QB needs better protection going forward.
The college ball season is almost complete now so we have a better idea of who the best prospects are.
Some of the posters in here are obvious college ball fans and have a good grasp of the better performers or those who could succeed at the next level.
With this in mind, who do you like as oline prospects in this upcoming draft?
Please give as much detail (school, etc,) as you can plus why you think they could be good.
I also have no problem with other suggestions for a better oline in Houston.
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I've gone back to the opening post of this thread. I believe my comments fit nicely under Texansphan's last sentence.
 
HaveMercy said:
I've gone back to the opening post of this thread. I believe my comments fit nicely under Texansphan's last sentence.
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But best suited in one of the numerous other threads in this mis-mash of a MB. Your comments didn't fit the ideal of the coming talent available

If you read the entire MB you would understand better
 
I'd still like to see some discussion of which potential draftees would work best HERE, taking into account the Texan's staff and scheme. A guy's potential fit with the Texans heavily impacts his suitability for us. I thought we were talking about how a guy would fit HERE.

Any team's evaluation of a College player's talent should include the player's suitability for THAT team. He may be great somewhere else but not be a good fit with the Texans.
So, Yes, I understand the Hall Monitor comments and the very narrow view (in my opinion only, of course) of what comments go in this thread. I still think that narrow view limits the discussion of and insight into OL players the Texans should go for. Isn't that what this thread is supposed to cover?

Some days I'm more argumentative than others. "Hall Monitor" may be a bit strong, but this is one of my argumentative days and it's a lot softer than "Thread Police". Maybe I should go watch the Hallmark Channel with my wife.
 
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YoungTexanFan said:
To me, yes. Getting one guy who is a potential pro bowl level player at the LT position is worth more than two good but not great players, especially if one of those is a developmental guy. Give me the elite player at the premium position.
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Potential pro bowler? Ok
 
Over the last couple of days, Matt Weston at Battle Red Blog has, in 4 posts, done a ranking and breakdown of his top 15 tackles. I've been impressed with his detailed film study in the past. He makes some observations that surprised me, but again, I've always been impressed with his work in the past, so I'm inclined to believe any fault is mine.

He doesn't pull any punches and goes into a great deal of detail. I'm still trying to rap my head around some of his rankings. For instance he puts Kaleb McGary as the #4 overall tackle despite indicating that he is essentially useless at pass protection (I really agree with the last bit, he's a disaster). Essentially the only player he doesn't savage at least a little bit is Jonah Williams. He totally destroys Dalton Risner, which was kind of a surprise to me.

But most importantly, he includes a ton of detail and includes lots of video of game action demonstrating his points. It's informative even if you don't like his rankings.

Rankings below, organized by postings, so you can see his analysis (he gives Titus Howard and Max Sharping a N/A because he doesn't have enough video to evaluate):


2019 NFL Draft: Ranking The Offensive Tackle Prospects (Part I)
N/A - Titus Howard
N/A - Max Sharping
13 - David Edwards
12 - Derwin Gray

2019 NFL Draft: Ranking The Offensive Tackle Prospects (Part II)
11 - Chuma Edoga (PFF loves them some Chuma Edoga - this is a great counterpoint)
10 - Bobby Evans
9 - Dennis Daley
8 - Dalton Risner

2019 NFL Draft: Ranking The Offensive Tackle Prospects (Part III)
7 - Yodny Cajuste
6 - Greg Little
5 - Cody Ford

2019 NFL Draft: Ranking The Offensive Tackle Prospects (Part IV)
4 - Kaleb McGary
3 - Jawaan Taylor
2 - Andre Dillard
1 - Jonah Williams

Highly recommended reading and video watching if you care about the draftable tackles. He definitely does his own detailed film study unlike some other sites who parrot stuff they've heard elsewhere.
 
mussop said:
You’re really gonna be disappointed after the draft
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Maybe... Or the draft could easily go like this.
1st.-Jonah Williams-OT
2nd-Tytus Howard-OT
2nd-Lonnie Johnson-CB
3rd-Isaiah Johnson-CB
5th-Trayveon Williams-RB
6th-Hunter Renfrow-WR
7th-Joshua Miles-OT

Right now the Texans Don't have a single RT who they can count on, and its likely that every CB on the roster this year is gone next year except for maybe 1.

Roby- not very good and 1 year deal
-Aaron Colvin-one more disappointing season and he's cut
-Johnathan Joseph-Possible Retirment
-Calhoun-Not very good
Bademosi-Special teamer only
 
Wolf12339 said:
2nd-Lonnie Johnson-CB
3rd-Isaiah Johnson-CB
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Are we picking size over talent? Their weaknesses are exactly what eats our lunches, quick changes in speed and direction. If you're frustrated with people not locating and playing the ball now, this will not solve the proble.

Not saying couldn't develop, but jmo a round too high on each or pass.
 
infantrycak said:
Are we picking size over talent? Their weaknesses are exactly what eats our lunches, quick changes in speed and direction. If you're frustrated with people not locating and playing the ball now, this will not solve the proble.

Not saying couldn't develop, but jmo a round too high on each or pass.
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I'm picking them cause they fit the mold of what the Texans have said they are looking for. Height, Length, speed and ability to play man to man.

Lonnie Johnson is one NFC GM's 5th rated CB. Murphy, Greedy Williams, Rock Ya Sin, Deandre Baker, Lonnie Johnson in that order. I highly doubt Isaiah Johnson will be available in the 4th round.
 
Wolf12339 said:
I'm picking them cause they fit the mold of what the Texans have said they are looking for. Height, Length, speed and ability to play man to man.

Lonnie Johnson is one NFC GM's 5th rated CB. Murphy, Greedy Williams, Rock Ya Sin, Deandre Baker, Lonnie Johnson in that order. I highly doubt Isaiah Johnson will be available in the 4th round.
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Speed? Lonnie is average. Isaiah slightly faster. Both with poor reaction times and speed changes. Lonnie locates the ball by letting it hit him in the backnof the head. One GM? Seriously?

If the Texans are drafting off of weigh ins they need to clean house & they probably need a different DC.

Proven coverage skills and twitch to deal with the Hiltons/Edelmans of the league is what they need. Yes they need to be able to press as well but that is more attitude & technique than size.
 
infantrycak said:
Speed? Lonnie is average. Isaiah slightly faster. Both with poor reaction times and speed changes. Lonnie locates the ball by letting it hit him in the backnof the head. One GM? Seriously?

If the Texans are drafting off of weigh ins they need to clean house & they probably need a different DC.

Proven coverage skills and twitch to deal with the Hiltons/Edelmans of the league is what they need. Yes they need to be able to press as well but that is more attitude & technique than size.
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Isaiah is the 6th fastest CB, 6th quickest in the draft and also the 4th longest. Ty Hilton kills us cause we had zero deep speed. Our fastest guy was a 34 year old... Sorry the 1 GM isn't enough to impress you. LZ also has Lonnie Johnson rated pretty high.

Who are your perfect CB you want to pick in the 2nd and 3rd round?
 
Wolf12339 said:
Isaiah is the 6th fastest CB, 6th quickest in the draft and also the 4th longest. Ty Hilton kills us cause we had zero deep speed. Our fastest guy was a 34 year old... Sorry the 1 GM isn't enough to impress you. LZ also has Lonnie Johnson rated pretty high.

Who are your perfect CB you want to pick in the 2nd and 3rd round?
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LZ said, and I agree, Lonnie will get over drafted on potential & said Isaiah is a 4th rounder

19 CBs ran faster than Lonnie & 4 as fast. As I said, it's not all straight line speed. Both have problems reacting to change of speed & direction. This is not shocking. Big and tall has some advantages, quick change is not one of them.

We should agree to disagree. I rarely value size for itself. In a CB I want savvy, twitch, closing speed & the attitude it's his ball.
 
infantrycak said:
LZ said, and I agree, Lonnie will get over drafted on potential & said Isaiah is a 4th rounder

19 CBs ran faster than Lonnie & 4 as fast. As I said, it's not all straight line speed. Both have problems reacting to change of speed & direction. This is not shocking. Big and tall has some advantages, quick change is not one of them.

We should agree to disagree. I rarely value size for itself. In a CB I want savvy, twitch, closing speed & the attitude it's his ball.
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So which players would you want in the 2nd and 3rd?
 
Wolf12339 said:
So which players would you want in the 2nd and 3rd?
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I like Isiah a bunch.

I would take him at 55 but would be really happy with him at 86. Big tall rangy CB who's really fast, plus he's only played CB for 2 yrs. His best football should be ahead of him.

What dont you like about him?
 
Wolf12339 said:
So which players would you want in the 2nd and 3rd?
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Well clearly depends on who they take in the 1st...and OL has been fairly beat to death...

Not real enamoured of this CB class, but...

Jamel Dean, Auborn, CB. Really like in 3rd, given our late 2nds, ok there. Press guy with speed to stick.

Kendall Sheffield, Ohio St., CB. As a slot really like in the 5th, like as a trade into the 4th, wouldn't kick the neighbor's cat in the 3rd.

RBs are an exception to my dislike of scales & tape measures but it is contrarian: I like low center of gravity, low & solid.

Jacobs would have to be a 1st.

David Montgomery, Iowa St., RB. Solid 2nd. Not going to pull a Dorsett 99 yd TD but will get what's there, create some & be a safety outlet.

Wish Miles Sanders, Penn State, RB had more pass catching film but 2nd ok, definitely 3rd. Less interested if move to more ZBS which I think we should.

Damien Harris, Alabama, RB. 3rd, not going to complain too much in 2nd.
 
steelbtexan said:
I like Isiah a bunch.

I would take him at 55 but would be really happy with him at 86. Big tall rangy CB who's really fast, plus he's only played CB for 2 yrs. His best football should be ahead of him.

What dont you like about him?
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He likes Isaiah. I was saying not fond in the 3rd. In the 5th sure. As I said, his change, both speed & direction, is lacking.
 
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