**Official Game-Day Thread** Texans at Saints, Saturday August 26, 2017!!

[Texian]

This is my issue. I'm sure there are guys out there who know how to win more games than the other guy. I just don't think they're as readily available as you think. Nor do I believe that success in college means they will have success in the NFL.

Like Lou said, it's different.

Readily available as I think???? I have listed 3 Head Coaches and 2 GMs. By my definition that is very limited. My perception of highly successful college coaches transitioning to the NFL with any degree of success is based on whether they have full and complete control. In the case of Spurrier and Saban, they did NOT. Saban has said that if he had been allowed to sign Brees he might still be the head coach of the Miami Dolphins. In the case of Carroll and Johnson they did and it worked out rather well. Well until Jerah rescinded Johnson's full and complete control anyways. And we all know what happened after that.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

..

 

[frethack]

When Nick Saban walks in to a recruits home and sits down on the couch with Mama and knows exactly what to say to get the Top recruits and recruiting classes each and every year, that's knowing how to win. Meyer, Fisher and Peterson know how to do what Nick knows how to do, win.

Not to stir the pot, but Nick Saban is 15 and 17 as an NFL head coach.

Connecting Meyer, Fisher, and Peterson with Saban doesn't help your argument. They could all be great NFL coaches one day, if someone is able to pry them from their current jobs, but no one, including you, has any idea how they will adjust to the NFL game. It goes without saying that the college game is not the pro game.

Saban can say anything he wants, but there are plenty of successful NFL coaches who do not have complete control of their teams. If a frog had wings...

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/SabaNi0.htm

 

[frethack]

double post

 

[Texian]

Not to stir the pot, but Nick Saban is 15 and 17 as an NFL head coach.

Connecting Meyer, Fisher, and Peterson with Saban doesn't help your argument. They could all be great NFL coaches one day, if someone is able to pry them from their current jobs, but no one, including you, has any idea how they will adjust to the NFL game. It goes without saying that the college game is not the pro game.

Saban can say anything he wants, but there are plenty of successful NFL coaches who do not have complete control of their teams. If a frog had wings...

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/SabaNi0.htm

Sometimes the devil is in the details and the proof is in the pudding. Saban is extremely critical to my argument because he is the best example of highly successful college coach NOT having full and complete control. Saban proves my point. Maybe you just failed to understand the argument. Reading comprehension.

The Dolphins did not allow Nick Saban to be Nick Saban. Saban wanted Drew Brees but the owner (Huzienga) and GM (Mueller) would not sign off on it because of his shoulder surgery. Instead they forced Dante Culpepper on Saban and Saban promptly benched Culpepper after the 4th game. And that is why Saban is at Alabama today and not in Miami. Had Saban been able to sign Brees he may still be in Miami today and NOT in Alabama.

It goes without saying that a good football coach, is a good football coach, is a good football coach. And Saban usually does say anything he wants and he makes most people like it.

 

[adama51]

Sometimes the devil is in the details and the proof is in the pudding. Saban is extremely critical to my argument because he is the best example of highly successful college coach NOT having full and complete control. Saban proves my point. Maybe you just failed to understand the argument. Reading comprehension.

The Dolphins did not allow Nick Saban to be Nick Saban. Saban wanted Drew Brees but the owner (Huzienga) and GM (Mueller) would not sign off on it because of his shoulder surgery. Instead they forced Dante Culpepper on Saban and Saban promptly benched Culpepper after the 4th game. And that is why Saban is at Alabama today and not in Miami. Had Saban been able to sign Brees he may still be in Miami today and NOT in Alabama.

It goes without saying that a good football coach, is a good football coach, is a good football coach. And Saban usually does say anything he wants and he makes most people like it.

This is the argument I use for everyone who says Saban couldn't hack it in the NFL but nobody seems to listen.

 

[Rich Schmidt]

Sometimes the devil is in the details and the proof is in the pudding. Saban is extremely critical to my argument because he is the best example of highly successful college coach NOT having full and complete control. Saban proves my point. Maybe you just failed to understand the argument. Reading comprehension.

The Dolphins did not allow Nick Saban to be Nick Saban. Saban wanted Drew Brees but the owner (Huzienga) and GM (Mueller) would not sign off on it because of his shoulder surgery. Instead they forced Dante Culpepper on Saban and Saban promptly benched Culpepper after the 4th game. And that is why Saban is at Alabama today and not in Miami. Had Saban been able to sign Brees he may still be in Miami today and NOT in Alabama.

It goes without saying that a good football coach, is a good football coach, is a good football coach. And Saban usually does say anything he wants and he makes most people like it.

Are you implying Saban's offense would be like New Orleans? I don't think Drew would be Drew without Sean Payton. Nick is not that creative of offensive mind. So not buying it. The NFL is a different beast and leading grown paid men, takes a different skill set and motivational angle Nick has not shown. May be GOAT in college though

 

[Texian]

Are you implying Saban's offense would be like New Orleans? I don't think Drew would be Drew without Sean Payton. Nick is not that creative of offensive mind. So not buying it. The NFL is a different beast and leading grown paid men, takes a different skill set and motivational angle Nick has not shown. May be GOAT in college though

Is that you Dante? I am implying that Drew Brees would be a much better QB than Dante Culpepper (and he is). What makes you think that Saban's Miami OC Scott Linehan and QB Coach Jason Garrett could not have had success with Brees? Garrett and Linehan seem to be doing quite well in Dallas TODAY. (Are you implying they would have destroyed Brees?) What's with all this reading comprehension difficulty? [foot in mouth smilie]

 

[Texian]

This is the argument I use for everyone who says Saban couldn't hack it in the NFL but nobody seems to listen.

They don't want to listen, doesn't fit their narrative. They only want to hear and see what they want to hear and see.

 

[amazing80]

They don't want to listen, doesn't fit their narrative. They only want to hear and see what they want to hear and see.

Says the guy who insulted people with his last 3 posts in this thread. You are the one who is forcing your narrative on everyone else and saying we don't understand if we disagree.

 

[Texian]

Says the guy who insulted people with his last 3 posts in this thread. You are the one who is forcing your narrative on everyone else and saying we don't understand if we disagree.

I am responding to commenters who have responded and made inquiries to my comments. I have not forced anything on anyone. And I responded in a same manner in which I was addressed. Thank you very much for reading. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Don't forget that the first person to respond called me stupid and I'm the one guilty of insulting people.

 

[Rich Schmidt]

Is that you Dante? I am implying that Drew Brees would be a much better QB than Dante Culpepper (and he is). What makes you think that Saban's Miami OC Scott Linehan and QB Coach Jason Garrett could not have had success with Brees? Garrett and Linehan seem to be doing quite well in Dallas TODAY. (Are you implying they would have destroyed Brees?) What's with all this reading comprehension difficulty? [foot in mouth smilie]

All I am saying is Drew was only OK before going to Payton, and you have to admit that is a wide open offense that Saban as a defensive guy would be unlikely to employ. You cannot change key variables and assume the same outcome. You can imply he would be the same guy, I say talent may be there, but people are products of the system and coaching. Just look at the talent that rolled through Austin under Mr Brown that went undeveloped. Anyway, this does not fit your agenda so you can ignore

 

[Rich Schmidt]

Is that you Dante? I am implying that Drew Brees would be a much better QB than Dante Culpepper (and he is). What makes you think that Saban's Miami OC Scott Linehan and QB Coach Jason Garrett could not have had success with Brees? Garrett and Linehan seem to be doing quite well in Dallas TODAY. (Are you implying they would have destroyed Brees?) What's with all this reading comprehension difficulty? [foot in mouth smilie]

And by the way, you say you only respond like others, I rarely comment and you have to smart ass two things, so I say BS.

 

[Texian]

All I am saying is Drew was only OK before going to Payton, and you have to admit that is a wide open offense that Saban as a defensive guy would be unlikely to employ. You cannot change key variables and assume the same outcome. You can imply he would be the same guy, I say talent may be there, but people are products of the system and coaching. Just look at the talent that rolled through Austin under Mr Brown that went undeveloped. Anyway, this does not fit your agenda so you can ignore

And by the way, you say you only respond like others, I rarely comment and you have to smart ass two things, so I say BS.

You started off with "Are you implying Saban's offense would be like New Orleans?" And I'm thinking where did I ever say anything that would lead anyone to that conclusion? New Orleans was never part of this conversation. Then you tried to make the argument that Saban was bad example when in fact he is the perfect example "for my agenda". Saban's 15 -17 record IMO is directly related to Saban not having full and complete control over all football operations in Miami. And yes that is my agenda until proven otherwise. He did have control over the 53 man roster however he was overruled by the owner on Brees.

You're making all these what ifs about what Miami's offense would not have been and how terrible the offense would have been had they signed Brees. I say BS and that Linehan and Garrett would've had Brees operating a high efficient capacity. I think Linehan and Garrett have shown they can develop talent at a very high level in the NFL. You do know who Linehan and Garrett are don't you? I think you are also wrong about Saban and his offense. His Alabama O has developed and evolved under several OCs and a Saban O today employs a hurry up no huddle spread. It doesn't get much more wide open than that.

As to the tone of the conversation, I can do snark or congenial. your choice.

 

[thunderkyss]

Readily available as I think???? I have listed 3 Head Coaches and 2 GMs. By my definition that is very limited. My perception of highly successful college coaches transitioning to the NFL with any degree of success is based on whether they have full and complete control. In the case of Spurrier and Saban, they did NOT. Saban has said that if he had been allowed to sign Brees he might still be the head coach of the Miami Dolphins. In the case of Carroll and Johnson they did and it worked out rather well. Well until Jerah rescinded Johnson's full and complete control anyways. And we all know what happened after that.

By readily available I mean the guys you've listed aren't easily pried away from their current gigs.

 

[thunderkyss]

Sometimes the devil is in the details and the proof is in the pudding. Saban is extremely critical to my argument because he is the best example of highly successful college coach NOT having full and complete control. Saban proves my point. Maybe you just failed to understand the argument. Reading comprehension.

The Dolphins did not allow Nick Saban to be Nick Saban. Saban wanted Drew Brees but the owner (Huzienga) and GM (Mueller) would not sign off on it because of his shoulder surgery. Instead they forced Dante Culpepper on Saban and Saban promptly benched Culpepper after the 4th game. And that is why Saban is at Alabama today and not in Miami. Had Saban been able to sign Brees he may still be in Miami today and NOT in Alabama.

It goes without saying that a good football coach, is a good football coach, is a good football coach. And Saban usually does say anything he wants and he makes most people like it.

Not much of a coach if he could only win with Drew Brees.

Heck, had Kubiak been able to get Drew Brees... That would have been something.

Sean Payton won a Super Bowl, even though he doesn't have complete control.

Mike Tomlin did it without complete control & without Drew Brees. So did Tom Coughlin & Mike McCarty.

But I'm getting off track.

Surely Saban could have won with another QB... I mean if he got Brees & his shoulder was gone, he'd have come up with a plan B right? Or would he have blamed someone else for not being able to coach up an NFL QB?

 

[Texian]

Not much of a coach if he could only win with Drew Breed.

Heck, had Kubiak been able to get Drew Brees... That would have been something.

Sean Payton won a Super Bowl, even though he doesn't have complete control.

Mike Tomlin did it without complete control & without Drew Brees. So did Tom Coughlin & Mike McCarty.

But I'm getting off track.

Surely Saban could have won with another QB... I mean if he got Brees & his shoulder was gone, he'd have come up with a plan B right? Or would he have blamed someone else for the crappy defense?

Now you're rambling, sorry, that was not my intent.

 

[frethack]

Sometimes the devil is in the details and the proof is in the pudding. Saban is extremely critical to my argument because he is the best example of highly successful college coach NOT having full and complete control. Saban proves my point. Maybe you just failed to understand the argument. Reading comprehension.

The Dolphins did not allow Nick Saban to be Nick Saban. Saban wanted Drew Brees but the owner (Huzienga) and GM (Mueller) would not sign off on it because of his shoulder surgery. Instead they forced Dante Culpepper on Saban and Saban promptly benched Culpepper after the 4th game. And that is why Saban is at Alabama today and not in Miami. Had Saban been able to sign Brees he may still be in Miami today and NOT in Alabama.

It goes without saying that a good football coach, is a good football coach, is a good football coach. And Saban usually does say anything he wants and he makes most people like it.

My reading comprehension is just fine and ad hominem arguments against a person's intelligence won't help you. For the record I have a Masters in atmospheric physics and dynamics and am ABD with one publication left to finish before the PhD (both from UT Austin).

I can respect the plausibility of your Drew Brees hypothetical, but the reality is that there are too many variables to project the same success in Miami. In the NFL, Nick Saban is what his record says he is until he proves otherwise, just like every other head coach.

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[ObsiWan]

Very tough to do? Yet guys like Meyer, Fisher, Peterson do it year in and year out, with and without "elite" QBs. Some coaches just know how to win more football games than other coaches. That's a fact.

Never leaving? An assumption on your part only. Established winning NFL HCs and GMs won't leave, why would they? They already have an ideal job. As for college, most of these guys aspire to compete on the biggest stage (NFL). However they all have learned from Saban, Spurrier, Johnson, Carroll only cross that line with full and complete control. Without it, it's a suicide mission.

The guys I called out are more hands off than hands on when compared to other owners in the league. They pretty much stay in the background, give credit where credit is due, are NOT the first ones at the office every morning, riding in their golf carts at every practice, making player personnel decisions, standing on the sidelines most of the game, sitting on the front row in the NFL Draft Room with everyone else sitting behind him. Yeah the ones I called out pretty much let the person (singular) they hired do what he does best and pretty much stays out of their way (when compared to most of the other owners who have a record of average and ordinary).

First I don't put O'Brien in this class of college coaches, never have. Second O'Brien may think he's deserving of full and complete control but I sure don't. I'm not sure there has been a bigger critic of O'Brien's answers to Texans QBs and their performance than me. Not sure where your O'Brien comments are coming from?

Just to be clear, from the day that McNair hired O'Brien I was not an O'Brien fan and still to this today I am not.

Thing is, as I said in my post, those guys you keep putting forth as shining examples (and they are) EARNED that "Leave me alone" status over time. They weren't granted it going in.

And we totally agree on Bill O'Brien. I was patient with Kubiak because from year to year I could see the offense getting better and better. Took him just one season to see that Carr wouldn't cut it and just the following off-season to find a guy he could groom. Two years later that guy was putting up 4000-yd seasons and our offense was respected. After three years with O'Brien I'm still waiting on him to find a QB to run this "offense".

 

[Texian]

My reading comprehension is just fine and ad hominem arguments against a person's intelligence won't help you. For the record I have a Masters in atmospheric physics and dynamics and am ABD with one publication left to finish before the PhD (both from UT Austin).

I can respect the plausibility of your Drew Brees hypothetical, but the reality is that there are too many variables to project the same success in Miami. In the NFL, Nick Saban is what his record says he is until he proves otherwise, just like every other head coach.

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I agree that Saban's NFL record is what it says he is with the caveat that he was a highly successful coach who DID NOT have Full and Complete control of all Miami Dolphins football operations.

 

[Texian]

Thing is, as I said in my post, those guys you keep putting forth as shining examples (and they are) EARNED that "Leave me alone" status over time. They weren't granted it going in.

And we totally agree on Bill O'Brien. I was patient with Kubiak because from year to year I could see the offense getting better and better. Took him just one season to see that Carr wouldn't cut it and just the following off-season to find a guy he could groom. Two years later that guy was putting up 4000-yd seasons and our offense was respected. After three years with O'Brien I'm still waiting on him to find a QB to run this "offense".

I'm pretty sure that Kubiak would not have had the success that he did had Alex Gibbs not picked up the phone and called Gary to say he wanted a job.

 

[infantrycak]

I'm pretty sure that Kubiak would not have had the success that he did had Alex Gibbs not picked up the phone and called Gary to say he wanted a job.

And Jimmy Johnson wouldn't without Houck. Your point?

 

[thunderkyss]

After three years with O'Brien I'm still waiting on him to find a QB to run this "offense".

But how long did it take Kubiak to find someone to run his defense? That's where O'Brien hit it out of the park.

I think he should have brought in McCoy, or Turner, or some proven coordinator. He should, imo, focus on being a head coach, not a coordinator.

 

[ObsiWan]

But how long did it take Kubiak to find someone to run his defense? That's where O'Brien hit it out of the park.

I think he should have brought in McCoy, or Turner, or some proven coordinator. He should, imo, focus on being a head coach, not a coordinator.

Think back, when Kubiak got hired what DC with top credentials was available?? Wade was headed to a HC job in Dallas and Crennel was leading the Browns to their last known winning season as HC. LeBeau wasn't ready to leave the Steelers.
Who else was out there??

 

[Texian]

And Jimmy Johnson wouldn't without Houck. Your point?

My point is, Kubiak would not have had the success that he did had Alex Gibbs not picked up the phone and called Gary to say he wanted a job. Is this really that difficult to understand?

 

[Texian]

Think back, when Kubiak got hired what DC with top credentials was available?? Wade was headed to a HC job in Dallas and Crennel was leading the Browns to their last known winning season as HC. LeBeau wasn't ready to leave the Steelers.
Who else was out there??

There were 3 or 4 after Richard Smith was fired. Kubiak only interviewed Frank Bush. Off the top of my head I want to say Rod Marinelli and Mike Nolan were between jobs then.

 

[austins23]

It goes without saying that a good football coach, is a good football coach, is a good football coach. And Saban usually does say anything he wants and he makes most people like it.

I don't have a dog in this "discussion", but I thought I'd share something (to the bolded) I heard on sports talk radio on the way to work tonight.

Jim Harbaugh. All the dude does is turn bad, losing teams into winners. Stanford, Niners, Michigan....
Just sharing what I heard, don't pile on me.

 

[steelbtexan]

Thing is, as I said in my post, those guys you keep putting forth as shining examples (and they are) EARNED that "Leave me alone" status over time. They weren't granted it going in.

And we totally agree on Bill O'Brien. I was patient with Kubiak because from year to year I could see the offense getting better and better. Took him just one season to see that Carr wouldn't cut it and just the following off-season to find a guy he could groom. Two years later that guy was putting up 4000-yd seasons and our offense was respected. After three years with O'Brien I'm still waiting on him to find a QB to run this "offense".

And I like BOB,

But this is the truth.

Now unfortunately Ricky has been in charge of finding a QB the last 2 yrs. After this season is over and BOB is gone, you can blame Smith for not being a good talent evaluator. (This is true) But BOB shares blame because he had 2 yrs to find a QB and he failed miserably. Unless Savage was his guy and mgmt overruled BOB and didn't let Savage play.

 

[beerlover]

Rick has been GM since 2006 (post draft).

 

[steelbtexan]

Rick has been GM since 2006 (post draft).

So this is yr #11?

Man how time flies.

I remember when I thought Smithiak would become one of the best GM/HC duos in the NFL. Boy was I wrong.

 

[JB]

So this is yr #11?

Man how time flies.

I remember when I thought Smithiak would become one of the best GM/HC duos in the NFL. Boy was I wrong.

Because it was Smithiak... should have been Kubith

 

[ObsiWan]

There were 3 or 4 after Richard Smith was fired. Kubiak only interviewed Frank Bush. Off the top of my head I want to say Rod Marinelli and Mike Nolan were between jobs then.

No. They weren't.
Marinelli was HC of the Lions from 2006-08. Then he was snapped up by the Bears to be assistant HC and O-line coach then DC from 2009-2012
Link1
Mike Nolan was the HC of the Niners from 2005-08. In 2009 he became Josh McDaniels' DC in Denver. He left there to become DC at Miami for the 2010-11 seasons.
Link2

Like I said, the "name brand" DCs all had jobs.

 

[ObsiWan]

And I like BOB,

But this is the truth.

Now unfortunately Ricky has been in charge of finding a QB the last 2 yrs. After this season is over and BOB is gone, you can blame Smith for not being a good talent evaluator. (This is true) But BOB shares blame because he had 2 yrs to find a QB and he failed miserably. Unless Savage was his guy and mgmt overruled BOB and didn't let Savage play.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I think O'Brien was brought in because of his success with Hackenberg at Penn St. and his association with Brady/Belichick. HE, not Smith, was brought in to fix the QB issue. I don't think McNair trusted Smith with that job because Smith was part of the no-backup-for-Schaub problem. You may ask - and justifiably so - why wasn't that enough to get Smith fired right along with Kubiak (they both painted us into that corner)? I dunno. I wonder that myself. You need to ask Uncle Bob McNair.

 

[Texian]

No. They weren't.
Marinelli was HC of the Lions from 2006-08. Then he was snapped up by the Bears to be assistant HC and O-line coach then DC from 2009-2012
Link1
Mike Nolan was the HC of the Niners from 2005-08. In 2009 he became Josh McDaniels' DC in Denver. He left there to become DC at Miami for the 2010-11 seasons.
Link2

Like I said, the "name brand" DCs all had jobs.

Like I said, just like the Texans Defensive Coordinator position, Marinelli and Nolan, all were between jobs after the 2008 season. Marinelli and Nolan each had a couple of interviews. The reason neither Marenelli and Nolan never interviewed with the Texans is because Kubiak only interviewed Frank Bush.

 

[Texian]

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I think O'Brien was brought in because of his success with Hackenberg at Penn St. and his association with Brady/Belichick. HE, not Smith, was brought in to fix the QB issue. I don't think McNair trusted Smith with that job because Smith was part of the no-backup-for-Schaub problem. You may ask - and justifiably so - why wasn't that enough to get Smith fired right along with Kubiak (they both painted us into that corner)? I dunno. I wonder that myself. You need to ask Uncle Bob McNair.

IMHO I believe that McNair hired O'Brien on the advice of Bob Kraft.

 

[steelbtexan]

IMHO I believe that McNair hired O'Brien on the advice of Bob Kraft.

But he doesn't let BOB operate the way Kraft lets BB operate. Acquire talent, instead he's got Ricky, who's not very good at his job acquiring the talent.

 

[Texian]

But he doesn't let BOB operate the way Kraft lets BB operate. Acquire talent, instead he's got Ricky, who's not very good at his job acquiring the talent.

Yep McNair wants to be like Patriots but he doesn't want to operate like Bob Kraft.

 

[ObsiWan]

But he doesn't let BOB operate the way Kraft lets BB operate. Acquire talent, instead he's got Ricky, who's not very good at his job acquiring the talent.

Yep McNair wants to be like Patriots but he doesn't want to operate like Bob Kraft.

Well Belichick had three Superb Owl rings and five AFC championship banners when O'Brien was still at Penn. St. Maybe when O'Brien takes McNair's Texans to their FIRST EVER AFC championship game McNair will give him more leeway.
both remain to be seen

 

[Texian]

Well Belichick had three Superb Owl rings and five AFC championship banners when O'Brien was still at Penn. St. Maybe when O'Brien takes McNair's Texans to their FIRST EVER AFC championship game McNair will give him more leeway.
both remain to be seen

Again, that was never Kraft's MO.

 

[ObsiWan]

Again, that was never Kraft's MO.

While I'm not saying that Kraft "dabbles" as much as McNair seems to but I saw on that "A Football Life" about Belichick that Kraft is in on top personnel decisions.

The example they showed was whether or not to give big Vince a long term deal or franchise him when he was holding out. The GM, Belichick, and the DC all were in Kraft's office. The GM was hesitant to pay him but the DC and Belichick wanted him. Kraft "broke the tie" and said "we want him here". Here's the link to that 'A Football Life' episode; the Vince thing starts about 11:20. Note how they bring big decisions to the boss. Also note - to your point - that Kraft listens to his 'football people'.

Here's a link to the story about how Rooney stepped in and made Cowher draft Roethlisberger over some OG he wanted.

All owners step in when they think they need to. Its just a matter of how often.

Note: I edited this after I went back and found that Kraft/Wilfork story online.

 

[FuzzyLogic]

Love the above... anyone that thinks there is an owner anywhere who just hires people then "get's out of the way" is not living in reality. They all dable and make their voices heard when they want to.

 

[frethack]

While I'm not saying that Kraft "dabbles" as much as McNair seems to but I saw on that "A Football Life" about Belichick that Kraft is in on top personnel decisions.

The example they showed was whether or not to give big Vince a long term deal or franchise him when he was holding out. The GM, Belichick, and the DC all were in Kraft's office. The GM was hesitant to pay him but the DC and Belichick wanted him. Kraft "broke the tie" and said "we want him here". Here's the link to that 'A Football Life' episode; the Vince thing starts about 11:20. Note how they bring big decisions to the boss. Also note - to your point - that Kraft listens to his 'football people'.

Here's a link to the story about how Rooney stepped in and made Cowher draft Roethlisberger over some OG he wanted.

All owners step in when they think they need to. Its just a matter of how often.

Note: I edited this after I went back and found that Kraft/Wilfork story online.

Dont cloud this debate with facts, sir.

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[Texian]

While I'm not saying that Kraft "dabbles" as much as McNair seems to but I saw on that "A Football Life" about Belichick that Kraft is in on top personnel decisions.

The example they showed was whether or not to give big Vince a long term deal or franchise him when he was holding out. The GM, Belichick, and the DC all were in Kraft's office. The GM was hesitant to pay him but the DC and Belichick wanted him. Kraft "broke the tie" and said "we want him here". Here's the link to that 'A Football Life' episode; the Vince thing starts about 11:20. Note how they bring big decisions to the boss. Also note - to your point - that Kraft listens to his 'football people'.

Here's a link to the story about how Rooney stepped in and made Cowher draft Roethlisberger over some OG he wanted.

All owners step in when they think they need to. Its just a matter of how often.

Note: I edited this after I went back and found that Kraft/Wilfork story online.

Man o man, talking about grasping at straws, whew. Got absolutely nothing from 10 sec piece bit. You could extrapolate a dozen different scenarios from that sound bite and not one of them be right. By your rationale, it was Kraft who got rid of Richard Seymour, since it was Kraft who said now that Richard is gone. Belichick didn't say a word. Good Grief, C'mon Obsiwan you are capable of doing so much better than this. Sorry I can't even give you a "Nice Try" on this one.

It may be in this same piece, I did here Kraft say once that there wasn't a major decision that was made concerning the Patriots that he didn't cross his desk. Never said he made the decisions or not, only that he signed off on them.

 

[Texian]

"

 

[frethack]

Man o man, talking about grasping at straws, whew. Got absolutely nothing from 10 sec piece bit. You could extrapolate a dozen different scenarios from that sound bite and not one of them be right. Belichick didn't say a word. Good Grief, C'mon Obsiwan you are capable of doing so much better than this.

It may be in this same piece, I did here Kraft say once that there wasn't a major decision that was made concerning the Patriots that he didn't cross his desk. Never said he made the decisions or not, only that he signed off on them.

Aren't you the one who tried to pass off a tinfoil hat scenario off of just this picture?

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[Texian]

Aren't you the one who tried to pass off a tinfoil hat scenario off of just this picture?

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Don't think so. I think you're confusing pictures. I am guilty of saying the Pic with Bob McNair on the front row says a lot about his ego and being the real GM.

 

[infantrycak]

Don't think so. I think you're confusing pictures. I am guilty of saying the Pic with Bob McNair on the front row says a lot about his ego and being the real GM.

And yet he isn't there in this pic. One would think the 'real decision maker(s)' would always be present. Oh look, Rick and OB next to each other in both.

 

[ObsiWan]

Man o man, talking about grasping at straws, whew. Got absolutely nothing from 10 sec piece bit. You could extrapolate a dozen different scenarios from that sound bite and not one of them be right. Belichick didn't say a word. Good Grief, C'mon Obsiwan you are capable of doing so much better than this.

It may be in this same piece, I did hear Kraft say once that there wasn't a major decision that was made concerning the Patriots that he didn't cross his desk. Never said he made the decisions or not, only that he signed off on them.

That's my point. All owners are in on major decisions; first round picks, big money extensions, whether the HC can sign someone with issues (see Kaepernick).
Bottom line: There's no such thing as a "totally hands off" owner. It's just a matter of how often he decides to overrule his "football people" like Rooney did.

 

[thunderkyss]

But he doesn't let BOB operate the way Kraft lets BB operate.

Maybe because he ain't BB.

 

[thunderkyss]

]Here's the link to that 'A Football Life' episode;

Pretty interesting starting at 24:55 Belichik has a lengthy meeting with Brady hashing out how they're going to approach the Raven's defense. At the conclusion of the meeting Brady says, "Alright, I'm going to go talk with Billy for a minute." % Belichik says, "Ok, I'll be right behind you."