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Jared Goff

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Still say the best case scenario would be for him to get drafted by a team like Dallas (who would at least try to sit him) instead of a team like Cleveland (who will throw him into the fire immediately).


That being the case, you'd still take him in the first? Early first? Passing on a player that could produce at a high level this year & the near future?

If you had a strong team would you be as cautious with Goff?
 
That being the case, you'd still take him in the first? Early first? Passing on a player that could produce at a high level this year & the near future?

If you had a strong team would you be as cautious with Goff?

Speaking for myself, though I know you weren't asking me, always take the guy who you think will be the best. I'd value potential over anything else when it comes to a QB, unless we are talking far fetched potential that is unlikely to develop. I wouldn't mind if they didn't play their first year, if that player had more potential than the guys taken behind him.

I'd always take a shoot for the stars approach with QBs. You can sign average guys like Hoyer off the street most years in FA.
 
That being the case, you'd still take him in the first? Early first? Passing on a player that could produce at a high level this year & the near future?

If you had a strong team would you be as cautious with Goff?

Yes. If I was convinced that he would be special (but just needed a year or two to develop) then I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger. The league and the fans are so quick to judge young QB's. Everything is so rushed. 10 years ago a QB could go in the 1st round, sit on the bench for a year or two, then be the starter. And nothing about that was odd. It was the norm.

Nowadays if a QB gets drafted in the 1st and isn't starting by mid-season he's already being labeled a bust. The change in expectations is just ridiculous. Do you expect a kid to start as a true freshman in college? No. You expect to redshirt him or bring him along slowly for a year. NFL should be no different. Young QB's starting as rookies should not be the norm.
 
The change in expectations is just ridiculous. Do you expect a kid to start as a true freshman in college? No. You expect to redshirt him or bring him along slowly for a year. NFL should be no different. Young QB's starting as rookies should not be the norm.

Why a year? What takes a year to learn & what methods would be used to train him?

I ask, because some will say the best way to learn is on the field.
 
Why a year? What takes a year to learn & what methods would be used to train him?

I ask, because some will say the best way to learn is on the field.
I think you will find there are compelling arguments for both sides of the argument. In general I'm in the camp that taking 1000 snaps is a better learning tool than holding a clipboard. However if you're going to get sacked 75 times in the process then maybe not so much.
 
Why a year? What takes a year to learn & what methods would be used to train him?

I ask, because some will say the best way to learn is on the field.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a year. It's as long as it takes to get him comfortable with the system and his responsibilities. Sometimes that takes a couple months, sometimes it takes a year or two. Depends on the player. It didn't take Luck or Bridgewater long at all. They ran the offense as rookies. They also had tons of experience doing that in college. It took Carr and Bortles a little longer so they ran watered down versions of the offense as rookies. Not surprising considering both had limited experience doing that in college. Personally, I'm not a fan of watering down my offense just so a rookie can run it. But that's just me. That was the only way they could get those guys on the field without being overwhelmed so that's what they went with. To each his own.

For guys with limited experience running a pro offense, I typically aim for a year window because that gives him a season to watch and learn and then a full offseason of going through everything and applying that knowledge that he now has in hand. I would play a guy later in the year if I thought he could go out and not get overwhelmed so he can get his feet wet, but I'm not going to let his draft status impact his development. If he's not ready then he's just going to spend his time on the field confused. He's not going to learn a whole lot and may even regress because he has no idea what to do.

The offseason is the important part. As a rookie, you're just sprinting the whole time to keep up. A player makes his most progression during the offseason after his rookie year because now he has all this knowledge and he can apply it. For a guy who's never run a pro system before, as a rookie he's going to be more worried about his pre-snap obligations, drop steps, and the playbook before he even starts worrying about reading the defense and getting through progressions. If you're on the field and you're more worried about that stuff then you're going to spend much more time just reacting to the defense rather than applying your knowledge and engaging.

For a guy like Goff, who has never run a pro offense, he's going to be learning a ton whether he's on the field or not because the offense and it's concepts are all new to him. Once I feel he's comfortable with those concepts then I will explore him going out and applying them on the field. That takes time though. What all is there to learn you ask?

He's going to have to learn and master the playbook (this means formations, play packages, pre-snap reads/adjusments, etc), he's going to have to learn and master verbiage, he's going to have to learn and master protections, he's going to have to learn and master audibles, he's going to have to learn and master reads, he's going to have to learn and master progressions, and he's going to have to perfect his mechanics. You think that takes months? Just look at Cam Newton. It took 4 years for things to click. But once they do...


Edit: As Texian pointed out above, live reps are great, but if you are overwhelmed then they are not doing much for you. If you can't run the offense then it's better to stand aside and watch someone who can. Then you can gain comfort in the knowledge you are gaining from observing.

It's not that much different than being in a classroom. If you showed up for your first day of physics and the teacher told you to solve the equation on the chalk board you would be like "what, seriously?". But if the teacher showed you the formula for the equation and the process of how to solve it and then asked you to do it you would feel so much more comfortable in doing so. Comfort is a key ingredient to a player's development that is often overlooked. Just look at Robert Griffin. You think he was comfortable during his development years? He spent the entire time either injured or in the dog house. Not exactly the best learning environment.
 
Great answers, both Texian & WolverineFan.

I don't know everything, but I've got a few ideas of how it works & I wanted to see how close/far off my idea was.

I know it isn't uncommon for many QBs to spend a year or so running the scout team. & I've been trying to figure out what all a QB could learn there.

I think learning how to protect one's self is of utmost import to a young QB. Learning to identify rush schemes, calling out the MIKE, identifying hot routes, checking run plays to the more favorable side.

He should also work on Mechanics, which boils down to muscle memory & repetition.

All of this can be learned on the scout team. As well as recognizing coverages, improving timing & anticipation, of course verbage, & commanding an offense.

2nd team QBs can learn these as well, but imo it hurts the development of the rest of the team, because he's also learning the offense. But that's just me & there are plenty examples of it working "successfully."

I'll always think it's a mistake to start a young QB who doesn't know how to protect himself or a natural ability (such as RG3, Cam Newton, Peyton Manning) to protect himself. Especially if the team can't run the ball effectively, still I know there have been some success stories.

But I do agree, a year is just a "number," not a finite time period. When he's ready, he's ready.

Oh yeah, & slide. If it were up to me, my QB wouldn't even be allowed to hold the clipboard on the sideline until he learns how to slide. It doesn't seem the NFL puts much importance in teaching QBs how to slide. They either know or they don't.
 
Great answers, both Texian & WolverineFan.

I don't know everything, but I've got a few ideas of how it works & I wanted to see how close/far off my idea was.

I know it isn't uncommon for many QBs to spend a year or so running the scout team. & I've been trying to figure out what all a QB could learn there.

I think learning how to protect one's self is of utmost import to a young QB. Learning to identify rush schemes, calling out the MIKE, identifying hot routes, checking run plays to the more favorable side.

He should also work on Mechanics, which boils down to muscle memory & repetition.

All of this can be learned on the scout team. As well as recognizing coverages, improving timing & anticipation, of course verbage, & commanding an offense.

2nd team QBs can learn these as well, but imo it hurts the development of the rest of the team, because he's also learning the offense. But that's just me & there are plenty examples of it working "successfully."

I'll always think it's a mistake to start a young QB who doesn't know how to protect himself or a natural ability (such as RG3, Cam Newton, Peyton Manning) to protect himself. Especially if the team can't run the ball effectively, still I know there have been some success stories.

But I do agree, a year is just a "number," not a finite time period. When he's ready, he's ready.

Oh yeah, & slide. If it were up to me, my QB wouldn't even be allowed to hold the clipboard on the sideline until he learns how to slide. It doesn't seem the NFL puts much importance in teaching QBs how to slide. They either know or they don't.

It also depends on the team they go to . Luck's team crashed after losing Manning but was a playoff team and Teddy went to a team with Peterson as their RB . The best rookie QB that I've seen was Dan Marino and he was picked in the twenties to a super bowl contender .
 
Since it is topical:

That makes it a big positive that Bengals offensive coordinator Hue Jackson has seen quick and steady growth from McCarron in the last few weeks. Jackson says that McCarron, who is expected to play this weekend despite a left wrist injury, has handled the transition “extremely well” and looks like a different player than the one who replaced Dalton.

“Night and day,” Jackson said, via ESPN.com. “When he first took over, he walked off the sideline after the starter got hurt. That’s different. You just go in there and play and you wing it and you do things. Now it’s about the process through the week of getting ready to play that builds up to the game, and then you walk out there first. That’s a different set of pressure, a different set of anxiety. That’s a different set of everything.”

Link

I think there is a variable but rapidly diminishing return in bench time. They need to learn to practice, train and most importantly study like a pro (both commitment and ability to learn from film study) and learn the offense. Don't think they have to know the whole offense but enough it isn't so dumbed down as to get them killed. After some minimum pro understanding (may get it in TC, may take a good portion of the season) they need to go into the game. Barring an established starter or team making a run that should normally be less than a year imo. Get them at least 4 games experience to take into their 2nd offseason.
 
I think Goff is going to surprise people once he gets on the field. He does play in a Mickey Mouse offense, but he has more pre snap responsibility than any other top QB I've watched this year. He calls a lot of protections and he is given free reign to audible. That's the kind of thing that requires a lot of game reps to master and he already has a head start.

What he is gonna need time for is to absorb the massive difference in the scale of the playbook he will be jumping to. He knows Cal's playbook front to back because there are only like 20 plays.

He's going to have to learn and memorize brand new terminology (not that difficult but takes time). But the big thing is the massive amount of info he'll have to absorb in the new system (again, really shouldn't be that hard but takes time).
 
What would you give up to get him?

A lot. I don't think it will matter though. I think he goes in the top three when it's all done and we are just too far away to move that high.

If you go by the value chart, just to go from #22 to #6 we would have to give up our 2nd and 3rd this year plus next year's 1st.
 
A lot. I don't think it will matter though. I think he goes in the top three when it's all done and we are just too far away to move that high.

If you go by the value chart, just to go from #22 to #6 we would have to give up our 2nd and 3rd this year plus next year's 1st.

I'd probably do that deal for a legit QB.
 
I get the feeling from watcha Goff that he's going to be another Bortles. He'll put up good numbers but make big mistakes at the worst times a d not really be a true difference maker. No way I give up top 6 pick for him.
 
I think he's the best qb prospect, but i wouldn't give up a 2nd,3rd and next year's 1st for him.
 
I would do it too. But I don't think Goff will be there at #6. And if you go higher than that the price jumps up dramatically.

Sign me up, then I add Lamar Miller and FLeener in FA.

I look at it like this would you give up three #1's for Rodgers? That's the price of a true franchise QB. If you believe Goff can be a franchise QB (I do) then you make the trade.

Another thing that gives me a sense of urgecy to make the trade is all of the teams in the division have their young franchise QB's and if Rick doesn't do something bold at the QB position the Texans are going to get left behind as these young QB's start to improve.
 
Pats had Gronk and Hernandez who were both better players than Fleener and Allen.

Agreed, but the Colts have many holes on both sides of the ball and the $$$$ would be better spent filling those holes instead of keeping both Fleener/Allen. Keeping both of them is a luxury the Colts cant afford. IMHO
 
Agreed, but the Colts have many holes on both sides of the ball and the $$$$ would be better spent filling those holes instead of keeping both Fleener/Allen. Keeping both of them is a luxury the Colts cant afford. IMHO

Kind of depends on their cap situation and how they plan on spending in free agency and who they'd need to sign in the future.
 
Agreed, but the Colts have many holes on both sides of the ball and the $$$$ would be better spent filling those holes instead of keeping both Fleener/Allen. Keeping both of them is a luxury the Colts cant afford. IMHO

Keeping their current GM even replacing the HC do you really expect them to do what is wise?
 
Keeping their current GM even replacing the HC do you really expect them to do what is wise?

Depends on who the new regime is.

For instance if Saban is hired as has been rumored I could see the Colts doing something wise.
 
Agreed, but the Colts have many holes on both sides of the ball and the $$$$ would be better spent filling those holes instead of keeping both Fleener/Allen. Keeping both of them is a luxury the Colts cant afford. IMHO

Allen is JAG. Just not seeing where you get this big choice from. And if they did have to make a choice Allen will be the one on the market. Fleener is Luck's woobie.
 
Allen is JAG. Just not seeing where you get this big choice from. And if they did have to make a choice Allen will be the one on the market. Fleener is Luck's woobie.

Depends on what they want out of the TE position. Fleener is an avg blocker at best but can get down the seam. Allen is a great blocker who can catch the ball but doesn't have the speed to threaten defenses.
 
It looks like the Cleveland Browns will have the #2 pick in the draft, does anyone realistically expect Goff to get past Cleveland?
 
It looks like the Cleveland Browns will have the #2 pick in the draft, does anyone realistically expect Goff to get past Cleveland?

It's the Browns... they are as likely to take Lynch or Cook as Goff if they select a QB at #2
 
Make a trade with Cleveland and nab Goff at #2. To Hell with the rest!
Cleveland just hired a them a head coach who is a former QB and long time OC in the NFL. Cleveland just became a prohibitive favorite to draft a QB and a player in trading up with TENN for the #1 pick to make sure they get their guy.
 
Cleveland just hired a them a head coach who is a former QB and long time OC in the NFL. Cleveland just became a prohibitive favorite to draft a QB and a player in trading up with TENN for the #1 pick to make sure they get their guy.

In 2014, the Texans had hired a HC who had spent time in the NFL as an OC. He didn't play QB, but I'm sure he imagines he did. They took the highest rated defensive player on their board & finished with a winning record. 9-7.

In 2015, with a new HC, the Jets took the highest rated defensive player on their board & finished with a winning record. 9-7.

In 2014, with a new HC, took the highest rated QB on their board & have failed to finish even close to .500 in two seasons.

In 2015, with a 2nd year HC, the Titans took the best QB on the board & finished no where close to .500 & fired said coach after just two seasons.

If I were the Browns, unless I thought one of these guys was a franchise guy... & not just the best available, given the opportunity to trade down, get extra picks, including an extra 1st next season... I'm rebuilding the sht out of my team.
 
Make a trade with Cleveland and nab Goff at #2. To Hell with the rest!
well they better be successful as that will cost two firsts and two seconds and probably more to move up 20 spots. Goff may be good but I doubt he is that good. I'd rather we continue to build team and get best QB available later in draft (3rd or 4th) and get impact players like WR Docston or OT Conklin and in second, RB Collins or opposite first round. That path allows us to add first and second round picks in 2017.

I don't want a "well he's better than what we got" QB. Especially at that price.
 
If they have to make a choice then they will keep Fleener. Allen is very upset about his role in Indy.
Yes he is. I don't see him returning there. When healthy is light years better than what we have now. I wouldNT mind seeing him signed here for the right price. Maybe he'll give us a discount so he cn stick it to the Colts twice a year.
 
well they better be successful as that will cost two firsts and two seconds and probably more to move up 20 spots. Goff may be good but I doubt he is that good. I'd rather we continue to build team and get best QB available later in draft (3rd or 4th) and get impact players like WR Docston or OT Conklin and in second, RB Collins or opposite first round. That path allows us to add first and second round picks in 2017.

I don't want a "well he's better than what we got" QB. Especially at that price.

^^^This exactly^^^

I want a new QB as much as the next person and I'm all for trading up to get one, but when you get in the top 5 trades become exponentially expensive and you had better be 100% certain the guy your trading up for is a franchise QB and not some guy that's "better than what we got". My fear is that we'll overpay for whoever we want so that McNair doesn't look foolish regarding his recent statements and so that he can sell jersey's.
 
^^^This exactly^^^

I want a new QB as much as the next person and I'm all for trading up to get one, but when you get in the top 5 trades become exponentially expensive and you had better be 100% certain the guy your trading up for is a franchise QB and not some guy that's "better than what we got". My fear is that we'll overpay for whoever we want so that McNair doesn't look foolish regarding his recent statements and so that he can sell jersey's.

In the same interview, McNair also mentioned Tom Savage, saying they have to work with him also and see if he'll develop into the player they want him to be. This part was omitted by almost every story out there, but it tells me that they think they might have something there so at the very least they wont make any drastic moves
 
In the same interview, McNair also mentioned Tom Savage, saying they have to work with him also and see if he'll develop into the player they want him to be. This part was omitted by almost every story out there, but it tells me that they think they might have something there so at the very least they wont make any drastic moves

I actually think this Savage angle is partially true. I think they'll make a draft move for a QB, but I don't expect them to make a trade-up move or even draft one in the first round unless one of the top guys falls (Goff, Lynch, Wentz).
 
I actually think this Savage angle is partially true. I think they'll make a draft move for a QB, but I don't expect them to make a trade-up move or even draft one in the first round unless one of the top guys falls (Goff, Lynch, Wentz).

Thats how im feeling unless they absolutely fall in love with one of them and that person slips into reasonable trading range
 
Whoever they get, they're going to say, "We had him rated as the top QB in the draft." Which is what the Patriots said about Ryan Mallett. Hmmm... Bryan Hoyer, Matt Cassel, Ryan Mallett... not really a good track record for those guys.
 
Whoever they get, they're going to say, "We had him rated as the top QB in the draft." Which is what the Patriots said about Ryan Mallett. Hmmm... Bryan Hoyer, Matt Cassel, Ryan Mallett... not really a good track record for those guys.

I laugh every year when I hear this stuff. They never miss on their players and always get exactly who they were targeting. It's all a bunch of PR BS to make uneducated fans happy about the picks.
 
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