HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Agreed! Plus, it'll be 'interesting' to see all the knee-jerking when their guy isn't picked 1-1.
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Clowney, then what?
- Thread starter thunderkyss
- Start date
Agreed! Plus, it'll be 'interesting' to see all the knee-jerking when their guy isn't picked 1-1.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Clowney may give some mystery team a short non-strenuous private workout.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/draft/2014/04/16/agent-rejects-notion-jadevon-clowney-is-spoiled-lazy/7768693/
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
Especially if you watched the impact it had on your own teammate (Lattimore's) career. Guy went from a top 10 pick to a practice squad player because he couldn't declare after his sophomore year and tore his ACL in college.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Like that was the 1st time something like that has ever happened. There are lots of career ending injuries and it doesn't provide an excuse for the whole team much less someone looking to go #1.
The whole argument is funny to me because the excuse of he was playing it safe makes me want him less. If he would come out and address two issues at once by saying "I didn't play as well because of injury and I am having the surgery yesterday" I'd consider drafting him. "I quit to get my big payday" means go get it from someone else IMO. Now he isn't working out anymore and still not having the surgery.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Yeah, the reluctance to get the surgery bothers me. He's been saying that he would get it for years now. I worry that he will get the surgery after he is drafted, as his mission will then be accomplished so it will be no loss for him. I'm fairly convinced that his reluctance to have the surgery is based on his desire to get drafted higher. When you combine that possibility with the propensity to quit on his teammates over injury risk and/or a lack of desire to win, and you get a pretty bad taste in your mouth about him.
If people accept that he didn't play hard because he was concerned with injury, what makes them think that this won't be a reoccurring problem, or that this attitude won't be reflected in other work habits?
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
I think there's a difference in incentive. Three's an obvious incentive to playing well in the NFL -- you get a better contract. There was no incentive for him to play all out last year. Best case scenario is that he's the #1 pick. Which is likely the result of him not playing all out anyway.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Is that the type of guy you want though? A guy that is more motivated by getting the top rookie contract than playing hard for his teammates and trying to win a championship. We are talking about an attitude that is completely opposite of someone like JJ Watt.
Even if he gets injured, which can happen when you don't play hard anyway, he's still going to get paid handsomely.
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
I truly don't care. When Tate was trucking it on a broken rib last year he wasn't doing it for his teammates or trying to win a championship. He was doing it for the money -- to get a big free agent contract somewhere else. It didn't make me respect him or his performance any less.
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
I also believe that the system is seriously broken. It's unbelievable to me that we force them to stay three years. I don't blame players for dealing with the system as best they can. I didn't fault Manziel for the autograph stuff for pretty much the same reason. I think it's crazy to crack down on kids for signing pictures while colleges make millions off of their jerseys and likeness.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Well, the big difference is that Tate never tanked to avoid injury.
Why would you think that this type of mindset won't affect Clowney's work habits once he enters the pros?
I don't understand your argument... if someone performs well there won't be too many questions asked about why ( providing there is no 4 game suspension ).
Lack of performance draws lots of criticism and questions. Not many can keep a job or get one if they are known to go half a$$
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
Well Clowney apparently was playing with an injury. Why it's bad when he does it and fine when other players do it is a different question.
Because the pros aren't college. NFL players are paid based on performance. I just don't see the character concerns. Clowney apparently doesn't drink. He's not in and out of trouble with the law. He's a professional. I don't mind that.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
The only serious injury he has had is the same injury he has had since high school and he has refused to get surgery.
What difference does it make if it is the pros or college? Why would he all the sudden play the game with different work habits? In college or pros, players are partially performing with the expectation that their performance dictates future earnings. I don't understand that comment. I don't understand any of this response actually. Aldon Smith drinks and gets in trouble with the law, yet he is a great football player that puts in 100% effort when on the field. No alcohol does not equal strong work ethic and will to win. Nobody is saying Clowney is some kind of bad boy.
The new staff that O'Brien has here has one or more coachs and/or trainers who were at South Carolina during Clowneys time there, and there's no telling how many additional members of this staff has close contacts with coachs past and present at Carolina. Then there's the owner himself who as an alumnus and a very generous financial benefactor of South Carolina no doubt wields serious influence with far reaching access to all corners of that campus.
So I'm not concerned that collectively the Houston Texans aren't gonna get the bottom line on what makes young Mr Clowney tick including any questions they might have on what motivates him. I'm just happy he's not one of these prospects who's a real head case with serious off field issues like an Aldon Smith.
So I'm not concerned that collectively the Houston Texans aren't gonna get the bottom line on what makes young Mr Clowney tick including any questions they might have on what motivates him. I'm just happy he's not one of these prospects who's a real head case with serious off field issues like an Aldon Smith.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
This isn't about understanding or empathizing with him. This is about picking a player who will be best for the team. Let someone else gamble they can keep his attention focused.
And can you say player who will hold out or only play in contract years?
This "he quit on his team" crap is so exaggerated. If he had played with as little effort as you guy suggest, he would of been Benched. You guys are mistaken lack of effort for frustration. Frustration from being chipped, double teamed, triple teamed, ran away from and three step drops designed specifically to keep him from making plays.
Just because he didn't chase guys completely accross the field and dive on the pile doesn't mean he "Quit on his team". Show me a single play where the ball was ran at him and he showed no effort. He was the best edge setter in college football last year. Show me one play where he had a chance to make a play and dogged it.
I've said since the begining that I will be happy with any of the top three QB's at number one. If we pick one it's because OB believes he turn that QB into a franchise guy. He knows what that takes better than all of us put together. I also said I would be happy with several other players at number one. Robinson, Clowney, Watkins and Mack. It won't upset me if we take Donald or a couple of other guys. But after listening to all the BS being spewed on this board about this player and that player I really hope we draft Clowney or Manziel just to watch all you haters freakout.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
For those interested, if Clowney has his surgery right after the Draft, depending on how extensive the surgery required is on the bone spurs, his return to running could be anywhere from 6-8 weeks. But expectations for him to be back to full speed with great explosiveness and ability to make sudden changes of speed and direction could easily be from 2-3 months (again depending on the extent of his surgery). If he agrees to have surgery (and I would not pick him if he didn't), he will still have the benefit of a full TC to participate in the system, and be ready at full go for the regular season, barring any complications.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
How common are complications after that surgery?
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Q/ESPN Radio: Is there any consensus on a player, from all the different people you talk to in the league, a guy where there's just no differing opinion at all?
Chris Mortensen: "No, for the most part, if you're talking about all 32 teams... you do get consensus opinions on Jadeveon Clowney, I think most people say 'hey, those physical traits are unique, you don't ignore them.' You do get the occasional "his work ethic bothers me"... you do get the more consensus, near unanimous 'he's the best player in this draft.'
They're some people who like Khalil Mack, but because of the level of competition he played at... it can't just be the Ohio State game. So, you...
Now you get some pretty positive feedback on offensive linemen. Robinson/Matthews... Taylor Lewan, a lot of interest in him. And wide receivers, it's true, there's going to be like 10 WRs going off in the first two rounds."
--Also said Manziel will go top 5/top 10. Hand size good for northern climates... don't think he gets past Minnesota. Doesn't think Oakland wants him.
Chris Mortensen: "No, for the most part, if you're talking about all 32 teams... you do get consensus opinions on Jadeveon Clowney, I think most people say 'hey, those physical traits are unique, you don't ignore them.' You do get the occasional "his work ethic bothers me"... you do get the more consensus, near unanimous 'he's the best player in this draft.'
They're some people who like Khalil Mack, but because of the level of competition he played at... it can't just be the Ohio State game. So, you...
Now you get some pretty positive feedback on offensive linemen. Robinson/Matthews... Taylor Lewan, a lot of interest in him. And wide receivers, it's true, there's going to be like 10 WRs going off in the first two rounds."
--Also said Manziel will go top 5/top 10. Hand size good for northern climates... don't think he gets past Minnesota. Doesn't think Oakland wants him.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Have a hard time trusting anything Mort says after he basically lied about Bridgewater performing horribly in multiple private workouts.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
That's not true.
I watched a few of his games and I saw a lot of plays where he seemed to be dogging it. People talk about how much he was doubled teamed and although I saw some double teaming and chipping and scheming against him, I also saw lots of plays where he was fine with just playing patty-cake with the OT and where he quit as soon as he saw the play was going the other way. I want my DL to chase after the play. I want my 1-1 DL to be a high-motor, no-plays-off kinda guy.
BUT.
What kinda changed my mind was that even though he had a ton of low-desire/low-motor plays, he still had those one or two plays near the end of the game where he was just unblockable. And on top of that, he was in there for pretty much every defensive snap.
So... while I was initially one of the guys that was the most vocal against picking him, I've softened on that position. He's not my first or second choice, but I'm not going to be upset if he's THE choice.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Without knowing the numbers or extent, probably anywhere as an average from 3% to 7%. However, depending on the source of the bone spur forming, such as an/the underlying arthritic condition, or the development of chronic nerve irritation/trauma........continuing chronic, possibly progressive pain is fairly common......in as many as 50%. However, it is the extent of continuing pain and tenderness that would dictate if it has significant effect on performance. Keep in mind that bone spurs do not go away or get better, nor does the underlying pathology, such as arthritis or plantar fasciitis........it will only get worse with time.........making surgery less predictable. Also there are no assurances that more bone spurs don't show up in the future. Clowney would probably have been much wiser to have addressed the bone spur(s) as they emerged, much earlier in his football career.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
He's a reporter, not a source.
I'm trying to get to the bottom of that report -- I can't find what the source was? ESPN show? Interview? I want to hear exactly what was said. I'm going to ask Chris and see if he can explain it.
And the report was he said "shakily" and "workouts"... the "workouts" part was refuted by his agent. Mort could have meant TB's meetings with teams. I dunno. We'll see if he responds privately.
Say Watt
Hall of Fame
And guess what. NFL coaches and GMs strike out quite a bit with getting cute drafting the athletic kid with all the talent in the world all the while forgetting what matters most: game tape. It's why guys like Demeco Ryans & Russell Wilson fall out of the first (and in the case of Wilson even out of the second) and instead, NFL studs like Vernon Gholston, Courtney Brown, Aaron Curry, Kyle Boller, etc. get picked. A guy might pass the eye test, he might be a "sexy" player with all the measurables, but don't let a player's athletic ability, height, or any other measurable override what that player did or did not do on the football field.
klockWork
Rookie
This^^^
All the people claiming he took the season off are lazy-minded with their math. They add lack of statistics production + his upcoming draft year and say, oh that equals to he's parking it for the season.
I watch a ton of game tapes on this guy and saw no such evidence of his alleged crime. And on plays where he's "patty-caking" with a lineman, he's was either guessing a run, play-action, or a screen. And when the play turned out to be a regular pass play any defender could be painted to look lazy on plays like that. And that's how many folks here chose to see it.
If Clowney truly did took a season off, then why would opposing teams even bother game-planning against this guy with screens, chips, double-team, and running the other away? Why compromise your offensive scheme by waste valuable resources on a guy that is on "vacation"?
klockWork
Rookie
I rewatched the Rams vs Texans game last season and noticed the Rams schemed JJ Watt more than any other teams last year. 3 out 4 plays they chipped, double, screen. There were about 4 plays where Watt were single block on regular passing play. Watt beat his man on half of those plays, only causing incomplete on hurries.
I don't think Watt made a single tackle in that game. But the effort and effect Watt had in that game was undeniable. That's the kind of attention and scheme I saw when watching games of Clowney. This whole accusation of him tanking the season is sickening to me.
I don't think Watt made a single tackle in that game. But the effort and effect Watt had in that game was undeniable. That's the kind of attention and scheme I saw when watching games of Clowney. This whole accusation of him tanking the season is sickening to me.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Was his worst game of the year, PFF ratings. Also the lowest number of team defensive snaps all year.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
What you guys are missing is it is Clowney defenders who came up with this "crap" are other Clowney defenders attempting to justify his lack of production.
In response to that defense, some of us have said if that is true then it is worse.
Without a name attached to this it's worthless.
bhsman
Rookie
So evidence of someone being defended is evidence of guilt? I hope you never have to deal with the legal system. :p
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Look, you blind Clowney guys are stuck in one of two positions:
1) He was giving full effort and was nonetheless unproductive, or
2) He was taking a year off so his unproductive year is not indicative of ability.
Frankly I don't care because I wouldn't take him because of injury concerns alone.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Pretty much agree 100% with that.
My issue, as far as looking at other people's views on him, is with how miffed Spurrier seemed to be when dealing with him.
bhsman
Rookie
You're free to cite actual downs and plays where this happened rather than accuse other people of blind. Please, do try and be a little self-aware, eh?
bhsman
Rookie
Honestly I just want to draft him to form an all-dreds defense. This includes Cush and Watt.
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
lol I'm not saying that he's the next coming of Bruce Smith. My preference would be to trade down and take Mack along with multiple other picks. If we have to take someone #1, I'd take Clowney -- not because he's perfect, but because I think he's less of a risk than the others. I also think Clowney is BY FAR the most likely player that someone will want to trade up to #1 to take. I don't see any other player that a team would be willing to mortgage their 2014 draft for.
Honest question, do you fault a team's management for quitting on a season and preparing for their future, or just players? Was Bill Polian a quitter with no work ethic for telling Manning to take a seat and tanking the Colt's 2011 season so they could "suck for Luck?" I think it's understandable sometimes to suffer through short term pain in return for long term success (ironic considering that South Carolina was better last year than they've ever been before. They finished #4 in the country -- their highest ranking ever -- and also produced their best defense ever).
Amen
aussie_texan
Veteran
That's all fine and well, but when and if you are able to find some big boy pants and make a decision on your own about who you would advise the Texans to select with their 1.1, get back to us. In the meantime, sure of course it's always easy and convenient to sit back and criticize others for their choice while remaining uncommitted on the sidelines yourself.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Hey I didn't throw you into the blind Clowney defender pool, you just jumped there.
His injury concerns alone make him a bigger risk than several other players. Putting aside the QBs Watkins and Robinson for instance are much safer picks. And I'm not saying Clowney is slag or does not have potential, he does. IMO his risks of injury primarily and then motivation mean other players would be better choices.
Agreed and I hope some team is willing to pay to move up.
Given that Manning was not medically cleared to play 2011, you've presented a false analogy. In any event preparing for the future isn't the same thing at all as broadly as you have worded it. For instance the FA QB market sucked rocks this offseason. If the Texans don't like any of the draft QBs then even though QB is a giant need the team will be better built by waiting a year rather than forcing the need. That's not sucking just to protect yourself. It's playing the hand you were dealt.
When you want to grow up and take your cheerleading costume off you can come eat at the adult table.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Because of bone spurs? I think this type of clean up is about as minor as you can get given the location of the spurs. I think Doc even said it should be a minor surgery. DB had a similar clean up leading up to camp.
I don't know if I'm considered a "Clowney guy", but I still think he's the better option among the "top 3" QBs. Will I whine if a QB's taken 1-1? Nah.
Personally, I'd take Clowney, Mack, Watkins, Mathews or Robinson over the Qbs at 1-1. And I don't give a darn if we already have DB as our LT.