Texian
Hall of Fame
This ^^^ sounds like a contradiction in terms.
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Teddy Bridgewater
- Thread starter revan
- Start date
This ^^^ sounds like a contradiction in terms.
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
Bridgewater went 19-29 and his WR's had at least four drops. He only had two bad throws the entire game and this is considered one of his worst games of the year. I'm really not seeing a bad game from Bridgewater here.
Well that was my only point. They started comparing that game against Manziel's & McCarron.
I said, "Look at this game & tell me Bridgewater is worthy of the 1-1."
They said, "Well Manziel sucked against LSU & McCarron sucked against Oklahoma."
I agree with you & it's not apples & apples, but that's they way they took it & now I'm trying to defend that argument to you.
This is not me "not doing my homework"
bah007
Hall of Fame
Understood. The homework comment was not meant as a dig, only as a suggestion that you were not actually considering the performances in the mentioned games, merely looking at who the opponent was.
To me, there are two arguments against Bridgewater at #1. One would be if his hands were to measure small at the combine. The other would be that he is so mentally ahead of his college opponents that he has an unfair advantage that may not translate to the pros where everyone studies the game just as much as he does. That could possibly limit his upside at the next level.
After studying these three I can say that at their absolute worst:
Bridgewater will play to his team's strengths and take what the defense gives him. He won't overwhelm you but he won't make mistakes and will beat you slowly.
Manziel will lose his team games because he is too reliant on his legs, too much of a gunslinger, and not efficient in the mental part of playing QB in the NFL.
McCarron will have to be carried by a superior supporting cast and won't be able to win games for his team with his arm.
This is only a discussion of the players at their absolute floor and ignores their potential upside.
bhsman
Rookie
Manziel's game against LSU was so weird; he had 41 pass attempts and they basically stopped running entirely, even after the first few attempts were getting some yards. I mean, we won so I'm not too upset, but it was also a bit of a weird game.
That's pretty awesome, actually.
Besides, it's fate. Just look at young Bridgewater with his Nostradamus hat on.
That's pretty awesome, actually.
bah007
Hall of Fame
In what way?
There are fair and honest criticisms against Bridgewater. And I have acknowledged them.
What I will argue against is when someone creates an unfair or dishonest argument against a player in an attempt to prop up "their guy".
UH has a pretty darn good defense actually, ranked top 20 in FCS. Houston has actually been doing very well on the recruiting front the last couple years despite having to compete with A&M, UT, and LSU.
The point is, looking at one single game, which wasn't even that bad in the first place is not a good practice for determining a players stock. You have to evaluate a player as a whole and look at their entire body of work and skill set and determine how that may translate into the NFL.
65% completion and 206 yards against one of the best defenses in his respective conference is not a single game damnation on Teddy not being a first overall pick. If you don't like him at 1.1, that is fine, but use more than one game, that was actually not that bad, as your reasoning.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Too many lazy 'analysts' in here.
So to summarize, Bridgewater opponents are saying that because he played in a poor conference and had a few bad games then he is destined to be a horrible QB? Not at all trying to guage the tools he's working with and the lack of talent he had on his team. Where could he be in 5 years with superior talent surrounding him and NFL coaches molding him?
So in essence SEC QB's should all flourish in the NFL because they played in the best conference? Crazy talk, go look back at how many of these 'super
conference' QBs are currently at the top of their game in the NFL.
If a QB needs the best players surrounding him in order to be successful then why do you think he would flourish when he is on a team that lacks that same type of talent?
So to summarize, Bridgewater opponents are saying that because he played in a poor conference and had a few bad games then he is destined to be a horrible QB? Not at all trying to guage the tools he's working with and the lack of talent he had on his team. Where could he be in 5 years with superior talent surrounding him and NFL coaches molding him?
So in essence SEC QB's should all flourish in the NFL because they played in the best conference? Crazy talk, go look back at how many of these 'super
conference' QBs are currently at the top of their game in the NFL.
If a QB needs the best players surrounding him in order to be successful then why do you think he would flourish when he is on a team that lacks that same type of talent?
Except bridgewater didn't have a bad game.
I don't like what I see watching this game. Only three throws were not screen passes or comeback routes. Most of those comeback routes, the receiver is waiting on the ball, may be two of them where the ball is there when the receiver turns. One of those screen passes was horrible placement where the ball was placed behind the RB.
I only saw three good throws, the one dropped over #9's shoulder for the TD, the one where he leads the receiver to the sideline, then the deep crosser that the receiver failed to catch.
His feet... when I think of footwork, I'm looking for something more than the fact that he crosses his feet as he backs out of the line. His steps are supposed to be his timing mechanism. Each step should be a read, by the time he gets to his last step he should have made his decision & his forward step should be in the direction of that decision. Instead, Bridgewater gets to the bottom of his drop, then goes through his reads.
That was only true for later in the game, the second half. The first half, it looked like every throw was predetermined before the snap... I don't have a problem with that, only that the receivers shouldn't be waiting on the ball. Instead of going through his reads, he's waiting for the receiver to open up, then he throws the ball. I know a lot of you are not going to agree with me on this, but this is what I see.
1st half, he consistently held the ball high & it paid off with nice throwing motion. 2nd half, he drops the ball & you can see that hitch in his throwing motion.
When I think of a #1 overall pick, I expect a guy who is 6-4, 6-5... 225-240, I expect his throwing mechanics to be automatic, his footwork & his reads to be synchronized. I expect to see good anticipation, good ball placement, good accuracy, good arm strength, & good mobility.
In my lifetime the only guys who met those requirements, the "prototypical" guys were Peyton Manning & Phillip Rivers.
You don't have to be prototypical to be worthy of the #1 overall though. Michael Vick for instance. He lacked size, his mechanics weren't even close, he had no accuracy to speak of. But he had plus mobility... a big plus mobility. I wouldn't have taken him #1 overall, but I had no problem with Atlanta doing it.... I could understand it.
I don't see where Bridgewater's plus attributes overcome his minus attributes. He's not Troy Aikman with placement & accuracy. He's not Michael Vick athletic. He's going to have to work on his mechanics when he gets to a real "pro system." He shouldn't be having to work on his throwing motion, how he holds the ball, or sync'ing his feet & his reads if he's the #1 overall, if he has no plus attributes.
I see people talking up his footwork & his throwing motion, saying he's the most technically sound QB in this draft & I'm just not seeing it.
I see people saying his size isn't an issue, that he'll be put on an NFL diet... but the NCAAF does a good job putting weight on other players.
His biggest attribute is his TD/Int ratio but imo, his level of competition makes it a wash.
Now if the argument is that this draft is void of talent & therefore Bridgewater deserves to be a top 10 pick & our need dictates we take the best QB, then I can see an argument for Bridgewater. But on his own, he does not merit a 1st overall selection.
I've watched this cut-up. I've watched the one against Miami, I've watched the one against UCF, I've watched several drives against Ohio, & a few from 2012. Every time, I'm more impressed with his receivers than I am with Bridgewater.
bhsman
Rookie
I was about to say, as someone who doesn't watch UH, wasn't their defense a bit improved this year?
Eh, it's still worth looking at someone's 'worst' game just for the sake of comparison. That said, these were my takes:
1:17 - Everything up to this point looked just fine; Houston's corners are covering UL's pretty well but Teddy is still getting the ball to his guys. I only point out this play because it was an incompletion because the WR slipped, and on the play following it Teddy should have just thrown the ball away, but he still got some yardage under pressure, which could effect punts. It's not first down, but it's something; he didn't get sacked.
2:03 - Holy inside pressure, Batman! Sacked, though I think any QB not named JFF would have been sacked, as well.
2:18 - Gets the ball out very quickly with pressure in his face, but WR bobbles the throw and drops it.
2:28 - Good coverage by UH's secondary; Teddy checks it down and gets what he can; second time this has happened on 3rd and 15+. There wasn't a big sack before this that I noticed, so maybe some runs got stuffed? Won't be able to tell without watching the full game.
2:57 - Again, has to check it down on 3rd and 23(!!!) after a DB blitz wasn't blocked. At this point I'd like to see Teddy challenge UH deep, but at this point the ball was right next to UL's end zone so I can't blame Teddy too much.
3:11 - Throws off-balance and doesn't get enough air under the ball; WR has to come back for it but it bounces off the hands. I think this was the most pressure I've seen Teddy under.
3:23 - Turns his head way too early on the screen pass and the LDE notices and swats the pass down.
3:33 - Internal Pressure, Part 2: Electric Boogaloo. Teddy does a nice job of escaping to his right and getting the ball out, but again this came on a 3rd and 15. Early MVP vote for this game goes to Houston's defensive line; they must have been stuffing runs all day.
4:02 - Teddy gets the ball out as the pocket implodes, but his receiver (#10) drops it, ugh. On second watch, it looks like Teddy was pressured into throwing it behind 10, who can only palm it with his left hand.
4:12 - Houston's Dline doin' work; Teddy has a 7-step drop and almost immediately has to start running left before throwing it away.
4:26 - Teddy has nobody to throw to (last play of the half so it probably wanted to go deep); Houston's line breaks through (there's a flag, so holding?) and Teddy again has to run left and throw it away.
4:53 - Goin' deep! Would have been a touchdown but the receiver was pushed OOB at the 3 yard line after beating his man and making the catch. Probably could have dived for the TD, but whatever. There's no plays made in the RZ, so I'll assume UL just punched it in and didn't throw.
5:30 - Teddy gets a ball out and accurately to his receiver out near the boundary on a 3rd and 13 play, where only his guy could catch it; Teddy might not have Mettenberger's arm strength but if he can make those throws all day he might not need it.
6:01 - 3rd and 9 (UL must have called a LOT of runs - especially considering the video is only 7:38 long; doesn't seem like it was super-effect, though) and AGAIN Teddy is being thrown to the wolves by his line; internal pressure nearly forces a pick, though luckily it was just defended.
6:31 - Just wanted to note that UL seemed to use a lot of screen plays this game that, like their runs, seemed to blow up more than be effective. Just weird play-calling.
So, overall thoughts:
-Houston's defensive line seemed very effective, going by downs and yardage (a surprising number of 3rd and 10+ plays with a couple of sacks to show for it)
-I agree with what was said earlier: UL's receivers didn't seem like they could get a lot of separation and Teddy was forced to run away from incoming pressure
-Teddy did all the things that he normally does, but it was complicated by all the third and longs and his offensive line not giving him much help.
Texian
Hall of Fame
If someone's evaluation of player is such that a players value and draft position drops that is NOT necessarily desperation.
FWIW - I gave Thunder a REP for making a very good, sound and solid argument. There was nothing in what I read that sounded anything like a statement reeking in desperation.
Understood.
But I don't have "a guy."
You won't see me argue that any one of these guys is any better than the other. I believe they've all got good resumes, strengths & weaknesses, & would support whatever decision OB/Smith/McNair decides will help the Texans most.
I've mentioned who my favorite is, I've mentioned how I would target a QB in the upcoming draft, & I've suggested how I would handle the draft.
I am most definitely not as invested in any of these guys as some others are.
TexansFTW
Veteran
super dumb question. I know, but what does MSR mean?
Does it have something do with messenger repped or something like that?
lol. To reverse psychology, one must first... learn psychology
lol, he seems too thin while he's doing this. If he puts on another 20 pounds this would have looked way better.
Don't bother. Texian is very knowledgeable, but when he picks a horse he just wildly swings at the other horses and backs everyone that does the same, even when they say something dumb AKA trolling.
Dude knows his stuff, but it's just a time suck to engage him about QBs in this year's draft class. Talk about any other position and he, like you, have very valid and great points.
I read this whole thing and really wish I hadn't. I still read all of your posts because you sometimes bring pretty valid points, but I'm getting close to just dismissing everything you post in this TB thread, you still got good stuff mostly elsewhere though.
You're just reaching, you don't make much sense, and you don't care about the guy because he's not 6'5 - 240. You've said it before MANY times and it's clear if the guy doesn't meet that requirement he is dead to you.
You want Andrew Luck, don't we all, but you don't understand Andrew Luck comes once in 10 years and only 1 of the 32 teams has a crack at him. Look at what the Skins threw at the Rams. I'd be willing to bet they threw the same package at the Colts and the Colts denied it.
And you do have a guy FYI. AJ McCarron and Zach Met. All good though bro. Do your thing.
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JCTexan
Hall of Fame
MSR= Must Spread Rep. It means I was trying to rep his post but I couldn't.
I'm liking Mettenberger less & less as I watch more of him.
But I do not prefer McCarron over Bridgewater, Manziel, Bartles, Murray, or Garapulo (sp).... I prefer McCarron at 2-1 over Bridgewater/Manziel/Bartles/Murray/Garapulo at 1-1.
Playoffs posted a mock sim yesterday that had us taking Manziel at 2-1... I'd have no complaints with that. If we could get Bridgewater at 15, I'd have no problem with that.
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
Ok, your stance is starting to be a bit more clear to me. However, there is no way that Bridgewater is going to fall out of the top five much less into the mid-teens. I think Bridgewater is the clear cut #1 QB in this draft. If we could trade down to #4 with Cleveland and still get him I'm all for it, but I don't think he would get past Jacksonville at #3. Settling for Mccarron at 2.1 at most I would be hoping he would turn into the next Andy Dalton. I would simply have higher hopes for Bridgewater.
bah007
Hall of Fame
I agree with everything in this post except for the bolded. You very clearly do have a guy, McCarron. You just don't value him on the level that some other posters value their guy. My only argument with anything you said was that the UH game is some sort of proof against Bridgewater that puts him on the same level as Manziel or McCarron. I just felt that you were being very selective by pointing to that one game when the other two both have worse games on tape against similar (and better in some cases) competition.
I don't agree with a lot of your conclusions about this QB class but I appreciate your ability to come to your own conclusion and back it up with your own reasoning. I can at least have an intellectual debate about it with you, unlike with others who will just pull other people's opinions off of twitter and parrot it as their own.
At the moment, here is where I am at QB, in order of preference:
1.1 - Bridgewater, Bortles
2.1 - Mettenberger
3.1 - Brett Smith
4.1 - Connor Shaw
Those are the only guys I would be comfortable with the Texans drafting. But OB knows far more than I do, so if he were to go another direction I would of course fall in line.
badboy
Hall of Fame
If it is possible for Browns to take Maziel over TB, is it not possible that Jags would take home boy Bortles? Is there anyone 5-8 that has to have QB, if not Vikings could take or as silly as it seems to me, they could take Carr allowing TB to fall like Lucifer.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
If Teddy drops he wont get past Oakland.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
The funny thing is that if the Broncos won , the Texans would have to take a QB #1 . Now they have to take a QB later .
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Heard a fascinating interview with Drew Brees on the B.S. Report (Grantland.com) and they were talking about what makes a great QB.
Simmons proposed that a great QB was 25% talent and 75% intangibles.
Brees countered by saying that if you get drafted into the NFL you have the arm to play, but to be great it was probably closer to 20% talent and 80% intangibles.
He spoke about toughness, leadership, short term memory, dedication, all those things that can't be measured.
I wasn't sure where to put it so I put it in this thread becasuse Bridgewater is my horse in this race. From what I have heard and read about him, I think he has those qualities. JFF probably has them too. Not sure about Bortles but that is more my ignorance than a judgement on him.
Simmons proposed that a great QB was 25% talent and 75% intangibles.
Brees countered by saying that if you get drafted into the NFL you have the arm to play, but to be great it was probably closer to 20% talent and 80% intangibles.
He spoke about toughness, leadership, short term memory, dedication, all those things that can't be measured.
I wasn't sure where to put it so I put it in this thread becasuse Bridgewater is my horse in this race. From what I have heard and read about him, I think he has those qualities. JFF probably has them too. Not sure about Bortles but that is more my ignorance than a judgement on him.
TexansFTW
Veteran
Yep. Prisoners of the moment. Then if Peyton or Brady win next year it will be all about the QBs again.
People all forget that in the 2013 Super Bowl Flacco against a very comparable defense (see 2014 NFC Championship game) put up 3 TDs in the first half and basically put the game out of reach. Defense is awesome, but QBs are always gonna be the most important.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I think you are correct .
Ken Norton broke Ali's jaw in a fight in 73 but Ali fought 10 more rounds after getting his jaw broke . QBs are going to get smashed , throw ints , and so on . It's what they do afterward which makes them great . That quality goes across the board with the greats .
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
Yes, it's possible. I don't see them both passing on Bridgewater though.
I put very little stock into what people are saying right now. The draft is still three months away and I bet the SB comparison is long forgotten by then. After all, I don't think the Seattle defense has one elite DE so why do we need two?
I was watching Manziel's game against Duke last night. I seriously don't see him having the intangibles Brees was talking about. Manziel was consistently in the shotgun, was lazy with his three step drops and even when he made good throws he didn't seem to be stepping toward his receiver.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Forgive my ignorance, but why do you feel that way? Why would anything that happens to Denver influence Houston? Before the Super Bowl the Texans needed a QB. After the Super Bowl the Texans still need a QB.
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Austin
Age: 24
I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.
Seriously, your objective opinion is that JM lacks the "intangibles"? Heck, that's one of the only things most scouts have been in agreement on.
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Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/46173/325/nfl-draft-norris-top-50
Interesting to note that the next QBs they rank come in succession at 27-29.
Interesting to note that the next QBs they rank come in succession at 27-29.
I think what people forget is that the Ravens won that game because their defense prevented SF from scoring a TD with 1:50 left in the game.
Defense won that Super Bowl too (hard to say that with a combined score of 65 points). If the Ravens D had allowed that TD, the NFC West could have won back to back Super Bowls & the Ravens would have had money to resign some of that talent.
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Austin
Age: 24
I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.
Seriously, your objective opionion is that JM lacks the "intangibles"? Heck, that's one of the only things most scouts have been in agreement on.
haha I will suffice it to say that being a UT fan has nothing to do with it. I stopped caring about A&M years ago when the rivalry ended. I don't honestly bleed orange like most people in Austin and I'm much more into Houston Texans football than any other team in sports. If I thought Johnny Football was the best QB in the draft I would easily get behind him. I don't though, I believe that's Bridgewater.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
That is not what people mean when they say defense wins championships.
markn
All Pro
The defense team that kept Ray Lewis out of prison?
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Pros:
Cons:
Read more: http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-...ing-teddy-bridgewater-12042288/#ixzz2sZBPvQhN
Cons:
Read more: http://www.sports790.com/onair/the-...ing-teddy-bridgewater-12042288/#ixzz2sZBPvQhN
Allstar
Bona fide
All of those cons are coachable.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
bOODRO87
Time Consumer
The beer will flow like wine if I hear Teddy's name called with the first pick.
dc_txtech
All Pro
The women will instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano.
bhsman
Rookie
Reminder that this guy has a Hall of Fame vote. "What? Andre Johnson? But he never even broke 100 touchdowns!"
Ugh.
I agree 100%! but get ready there is a poster here that loves peter............................................................................................................................................................................................................................King.
Despite the fact, that I don`t think the "defense wins championship" argument applies in this game - of course a good defense is important. And of course a great defense can be the main force in winning a championship.
But there is one big important thing: a defense consists of 11 players plus their subs. You can`t get a great defense by drafting one player. And if you look at the Seahawks team, you can get great defensive players in the later rounds.
Now a QB is only one player - but he is by far the most important player on a team. I would argue, that the QB position is about 10x more important than the next best position. So drafting one player at QB can change the whole dynamic of your team.
And don`t forget, that it is close to impossible to get a good to great QB in FA or via trade. Yeah, it happens, but it is rare and you need to be lucky. Now, you can almost always pick up great defenders.
That is why drafting a QB should be the priority. Of course we have to be sure, that he might be a franchise QB and of course we shouldn`t take one, that we don`t believe in. But when you have the chance to fix your QB position you do it, even if superior talent is available.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Pffff and right on cue TT's own pro analysts spew the "Peter King doesn't know anything" crap. Nauseating.
bhsman
Rookie
I'm sure he knows a lot about airport Starbucks.
I believe finding a franchise QB is a priority, however I don't believe that means we have to use the 1st overall selection to draft a QB, especially if you do not believe one guy has separated himself far above the others.
Some people believe Bridgewater is that guy, I don't.
I believe this is a really good QB draft, but in terms of quantity, not quality. Pre-combine it looks like a bunch of late 1st early 2nd round QBs. Picking any of them earlier does not make them better.
I want the best QB of the bunch & if that's Bridgewater so be it, but overpaying for him is not going to help this franchise get to where we want it to be. We took Carr, should have taken Peppers, even though our need for a QB was just as real then. We took Travis Johnson instead of Roddy White. We didn't improve our pass rush, run defense, our receiving corps, or our QB's production.
We've got to get better at assessing a player's value, if we're ever going to get true value out of our players; like Seatle, or New England. There are deals to be had in every draft, we've got to stop making it easy for the other teams to make them.
Maybe Bridgewater can separate himself with an exceptional combine...... but I don't see it.
We should only take a QB if we are sure but since we have the chance to fix the QB position we should do it even if superior talent is available?
I'm so confused
Coincidently, the last defensive player in Clowney's stratosphere was Suh, who went No. 2, behind Sam Bradford -- a player Bussell feels is the closest recent comparison for Bridgewater. So far, Bradford has underwhelmed while Suh, despite occasional lapses in judgment, has proved to be one of the most disruptive interior players in the league. In other words, Detroit seems to have gotten the better end of that pair of selections.
Clowney possesses the type of talent to make any team who passes on him look inept.
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