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Manziel
- Thread starter Wolf
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CretorFrigg
Fire Rick Smith
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI8TrW7vJC4
Is it just me or was the guy open the entire time? His antics were unnecessary.
Is it just me or was the guy open the entire time? His antics were unnecessary.
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
What you fail to see is how bad his offensive line and receivers performed. It's incredible that he's doing this singlehandedly.
CretorFrigg
Fire Rick Smith
I do fail to see that. On that play, his line was holding up pretty well. He could've just stepped up, away from the "pressure" from the DE and didn't have to jump into his own lineman. I also put quotes around pressure because his RT was doing his job and holding his man. There was no pressure until he jumped into his own blocker.
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
I forget to use the sarcasm tag sometimes.
CretorFrigg
Fire Rick Smith
First off let's leave Manziel out of this since the discussion is about the talent AROUND Manziel. Now what's left? Mathews first round talent. Evans great college WR. One other OL that could go high in next years draft. If he comes out this year he's probably a third round or later grade. That's it! Three draftable players. Only one skill position player out of that group.
Stop acting like he has this AWSOME supporting cast. He doesn't.
Blake
MMQB
+1
There is no doubt that Manziel is a helluva college football player. I just feel uneasy about his style (havoc?) working well in the NFL. I am not saying I would not take him, just that I would feel more comfortable with a more traditional talent.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
People didn't ever stop calling this QB Joe Willie Namath. It faded over time but it never went away.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
I really wanted to watch the A&M/Duke game, but my Uverse DVR decided to wipe itself between the evening of the 31st and around 2pm on the 1st. Sooooooo I'm waiting for it to be uploaded to TYT 
I'm not worried about his style too much. I think that can be coached down enough. IMO People are under estimating his pocket ability because he makes such big plays outside the pocket. And too many people want to label him a running QB in a negative way. He is top 4 in just about every passing category playing in a tough conference.
ubecool454
Veteran
Manziel would be smart to enter the draft as a slot receiver. He is a running QB just like Mike Vick and Vick is bigger and faster and tougher. Those NFL linebackers had no problem getting the big hard shots on Vick and knocking him out game after game so what do you think will happen with Manziel? Johhny Football is a great college player but that will stop in the NFL.
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
Do you think that every player in college is drafted or something? Three or four players with first round talent on an offense is OUTSTANDING. Since A&M is so terrible other than Johnny, what team's offense would you surround him with instead? Since Matthews is soooo overrated and his line is a sieve and he's only got one receiving option there must be like a dozen teams that are better right?
Who are they?
Quick cheat sheet for ya:
http://espn.go.com/college-football/statistics/team/_/stat/total
Not to mention how carelessly he holds the ball when he's ping ponging around in the backfield. A well timed slap by a better defensive player and that's a 90 yard fumble return TD for the defense
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Harrell/Simmons/Cumbie/Kingsbury topped tons of passing categories as well. So did Florence/Petty. The offense gives you that ability. There are some subtle differences between the A&M/Baylor/Tech offenses, but when you drop back to pass 40-50 times every game, you're going to lead the country in plenty of passing categories.
And coaching down his most effective quality is not something I want to hear when drafting a QB. He has improved his pocket passing, but he still bails the pocket early and puts his blockers in tough spots. How many times does he have a clean pocket and he bails out, runs around, and then puts it up to a WR. That just doesn't work in the NFL where the defensive players are just as talented and athletic as you and your teammates.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
Right. He keeps acting like Favre or Romo back there.
FirstTexansFan
The Unknown Fan
We can't have any of that! Banish this egotistical bastage to the CFL along with his daddy Doug Flutie... they like short QB's there!
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
Can you explain what you mean by this?
Most efficient passer, well what do you mean by this?
VY 444/718 61.8% 8.4 ypa 6040 yards 44 TDs 28 INTS rating 144.9
JM 595/863 68.9% 9.1 ypa 7820 yards 63 tds 22 ints rating 164.1
Better runner, scrambler? What do you mean by that?
VY 457 attempts 3127 yards 6.8 ypa 37 tds
JM 345 attempts 2169 yards 6.3 ypa 30 tds
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
This X 100. The bolded is whyy he is who he is..if you coach him not to do that, you're not gonna get the guy you saw in college. Cue the sly and family stone song... "The same things that make you laugh, make you cry......" In his case, the same things that folks love about him in college now....the off schedule play making & unwillingness to give up on a play... will make you cry in the NFL when he goes to the next level b/c they'll more often than not lead to something negative....injury, sack fumble, ints..
Someone pointed it out, but that stuff he did in the play above was completely unnecessary. The guy he wound up throwing it to was open the whole time. Another thing is Evans was open coming across the middle (NFL open anyway) & he came off him to try and run....
TEXANRED
Texan-American
You can't argue with UT fans.
We'd have to watch a lot of film & talk to Johnny to determine that. He doesn't look like a one read, then run QB to me. If there's a play to be made from the pocket he appears to be able to make them.
He did what he had to do within the system he was in. If our offense were more open... similar to what was done in New England for instance, I have no reason to believe he won't be able to find the open man. If his first read is open. I don't have the ability to determine with what consistency he would be able to find the second & third read, or if his capacity to be able to improve this ability.
We also know he is capable of finding an open man on the move. If he can go through two reads and improve as time goes on, he's going to make someone a really good QB.
Keep in mind, I'm not saying we should draft him. I've never said that. But someone will.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
of course someone will, he's sloted as a potential top 5 pick. But you can tell he's not comfortable sitting in the pocket & being just a passer...He's constantly moving & reacting to even the slightest bit of pressure & never fully sets his base to throw. he bails out the pocket prematurely alot & something i've noticed as of late, he's seemingly got the same syndrome Case has of trying to look for the big play all the time. That in turn causes him to miss windows where he should be hitting underneath stuff &/or just taking the play that's in front of him so as to move the chains.
In college, defenses were afraid to rush him & that allowed for him to really sit back. In the NFL, that won't be the case.
Your cheat sheet proves my point. A&M is 46 in total rushing. Take out Manziels rushing yards and they probably don't crack the top 100. What an AWSOME OL. ! And it's two possible first rounders. One skill guy and one OL. The rest of that team is average at best. You put an average QB on that team and they would be lucky to win a game.
You should watch more than YouTube highlights to form your opinions. It makes you look really really stupid.
I am worried about the offense he played in and how he will be able to adapt to a pro style offense. Other than that, I'm not worried about too much. He doesn't get any credit for his pocket passing. His accuracy from the pocket is on par with Bridgewater. That is his his most effective quality. His ability to create plays is special. Because he makes such highlight feel plays when getting out of the pocket people want to label him a mad scrambler. He has thrown more great passes from the pocket than he has made great aye with his legs.
It's funny Bridgewater made a play in his last regular game where he ran around and threw the ball up looking like a bad decision and it ended up a TD. Everyone went nuts and started claiming him as great. Saying that was a great play.
Same type of play Manziel does a couple of times every game. Yet the same people say look that won't work in the NFL.
Manziel is my second choice as of now behind Bridgewater. The only reason he is second is because of the offense Manziel has played in and because of Teddy's superior mechanics. Other than that they are the same player.
Say Watt
Hall of Fame
The irrational behavior by the anti-Manziel crowd screams either butt hurt UT fan and/or deflated former VY lover that was so wounded by VY's fall from grace that they are frightened Manziel is heading down the same path.
I still can't see how anyone could watch that A&M-Duke game and not come away overwhelmed by Johnny Football. He willed his team to victory, including on defense. This is the type of player the Texans need desperately.
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
A&M was 74th in rushing attempts (and 14th in passing attempts). They were top 20 in yards per rushing attempt. It's not that bad to rank 46th in total rushing yards when you are a pass oriented offense.
I'll ask again -- minus the QB position, what offense would you take over A&M's?
Errant Hothy
Hypermediocrity
Another year, another discussion about QBs and another year of TexansTalk message board slap fights and hurt feelings.
It's like the phases of the moon and the turning of the seasons, beyond anybodies control.
And I'll ask you again. Besides the two guys mentioned, who on that offense is even an above average college player?
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
Nice attempt at a dodge. I already complimented Ogbuehi, their RB corps and Walker.
Say Watt
Hall of Fame
Add Trey Williams and Malcolm Kennedy to the list as well.
I'm certainly on the side of the Manziel advocates. Yes, being an A&M fan skews my perception a bit, but it isn't a stretch, Aggie fan or not, to consider Johnny Football the most exciting college football player any of us have ever seen.
All that said, it's a bit foolish, IMO, to use Manzeil's teammates as a knock against him. He undoubtedly has a good supporting cast. Are they the best offense in the country without him? Not a chance. Would they be pitiful without him? Doubtful as well.
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
Kennedy was on my list in my earlier post and I was counting Williams as one of the three RB's. I forgot Kennedy this time. Good catch.
I'm not really anti Manziel. I definitely wouldn't take him with the first overall pick, but I do think he has a shot at an exciting career. If I had to pick the guy most likely to have a successful NFL career it would be Matthews, followed by Evans, followed by Manziel. I also don't think that Manziel really fits what O'Brien is looking for in a QB. I could see him looking for more of a pro style guy like Murray or Mettenberger.
I expect A&M to be very potent again next year on offense. Hill is a perfect fit for their scheme, that WR corps may be even better depending on how RSJ recovers, and they've got a ton of young talent on the offensive line. I really think if Sumlin uses their running game more effectively they could be record setting. They bog down too often -- most frustratingly in the red zone -- because he won't establish a running game. Very Kubiakish to me.
I think Mathews will have a good career jus not at LT. He's defiantly not worthy of the top pick. Evans is your typical oversized college WR. Just another mike Williams USC. I expect the same results. Manziel will either be great or will be a bust. IMO if he goes to the right situation he will be great.
As for the rest of the hacks you keep pumping up, we will see how good they really are next year when Manziel isn't carrying them on his back.
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
Given the needs of the Texans and this draft class' strengths I'd take Clowney and then work on offense later. I'd take Matthews over Manziel at #1 because like you said I think he'll have a long career at multiple spots. He's a "safer" pick.
I agree with that. Here's what I expect we will see:
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Very astute observation.
Vince Young went to tu.
Jonathon Manzeil went to Texas A&M.
Therefore, Vince was better in every way.
Of course he bails a lot, that's why he's potentially a top 5 pick. It's all hype & overrating the guy. Only we, on TT, can properly judge a QB's talent. If not for being uncomfortable in the pocket, which is clear as day, he'd be the clear cut #1 pick... no, he'd be signed 17 days before the draft.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
We on TT have all the modern technology known to man . I'll leave a picture so you'll know what to get .
Agreed, for the same reason. I don't know how close you've got them, but I've got them really close. Which is why I can't take anyone serious who thinks we should take Bridgewater with the #1, but Manziel shouldn't be drafted in the top 10. Or even top 15.
Manziel's play making ability compensates for the lack of a "pro offense" a lot. Then the way nfl offenses are run now anyway, nothing like they ran back in the 90's when coming from a pro offense was important. & with the success of Kaepernick, Wilson, RG3, & Luck because their coaches are willing to make concessions to help their young QB be successful... & the rules protecting the QB & receiver......
Coming from a pro system is still important, just not as important as it used to be.
I'm not arguing that we should draft Manziel.
I have them very close
There were several displays of leadership during that game & I'm not talking about that rah-rah, cheerleading crap. I'm talking about getting in Mike Evans' face & calming him down. I'm talking about the little pow wow he had with the offense before their second(I think) scoring drive. I'm talking about going up & down the sideline enlisting his whole team....
Of course there was that moment he took a little nap, but other than that. Great display of leadership.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Not to jump into the middle of this argument, but I'd like to say my piece here. A&M will likely have 2 offensive players other than Manziel drafted in the top 20 this year. Think about that. How many other offenses can say that they will have 3 players drafted top 20 in the same year? Not many I would bet. That's not even to mention their other OT, who has an outside shot at being a 1st round pick.
They also have three 5-stars (T. Williams, Carson, B. Williams) and a 4-star (Malena) at RB. The reason they don't get the ball isn't a lack of talent, it's by offensive design. The offense is extremely QB-centric. To say otherwise is ignorant or just flat lying.
A&M's 4 RB's combined this year had 279 carries for 1556 yards (5.8 ypc) and 24 TD's. To call that unproductive is asinine. Meanwhile, Manziel had 144 rush attempts and 429 pass attempts. They don't get the ball enough. The problem isn't that his supporting cast is bad (it's not), it's that the offense is so QB-centric that everyone and everything depends on Manziel.
The notion that A&M lacks talent on offense outside of Manziel is absurd.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
It's not that Manziel can't throw from the pocket. It's that he plays a spread system with half field reads where every adjustment and read is pre-determined by the coaches. Comparing his pocket passing to Bridgewater's is baseless unless you are talking strictly arm strength and accuracy.
Bridgewater has proven adept at running a pro style offense efficiently and making plays from the pocket. Which is exactly what he will need to do to succeed in the NFL. The fact that he also has that ability to improvise on a broken play is a plus.
Manziel, on the other hand, runs a spread system where every play and adjustment is made by the coaches on the sideline. He gives up on plays early, bails the pocket despite protection, and improvises by running around and chucking up contested passes or scrambling and taking hits. That is not what NFL teams will be asking him to do. Freelancing should be a trait that you possess that you can utilize when a play breaks down. It should not be the entire basis of your game as a QB.
The bolded part above is completely inaccurate. They are not the same player. Not at all.
You pretty much repeated everything I said. I respect your opinion more than most on here but disagree with the last part. It is not the entire basis of his game. Does he have a tendency to leave the pocket early. Yes! But it's not nearly as much as it's made out to be. It just stands out more so people notice it more. He throws perfectly placed passes from the pocket more than he scrambles unnecessarily.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
He won't make it past pick 33.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Oh yeah, and how'd that help out case keenum?
Stemp
Brew Master
Comparing a UDFA to a likely first rounder??
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