That's an average weight of 306 for pro bowl NT's under Phillips. Hardly a ringing endorsement for a heavy weight at the position.
Also an average weight of 264.4 for all of the NT's you listed. I don't get it.
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Texans OTAs thread (5/20-21, 23, 28-30, 6/3-6).
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Also an average weight of 264.4 for all of the NT's you listed. I don't get it.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
It's skewed by the how far back some of those statistics go. If you look at a roster of the Oilers for the 1976 season, you'll see the heaviest player on the team was 267 pounds. Curley Culp was only 2 pounds behind at 265.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti/1976_roster.htm
In fact, if you start from the bottom up, you have to go all the way to the 1990 Broncos that Kragen played on before you even find a roster that had a player at 300 pounds (the 1989 Broncos maxed out at 290). That means that Wade coached the first 14 of those 35 years without even having a 300 pounder on his team's roster, much less playing nose tackle.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
let's not forget, anybody is going to look good playing next to JJ Watt 
also everyone on that line practices & learns from him, elevating their games as well.
tricky business to project just pure nose guards because they flip & rotate so much. Mitchell is the clear front runner, young & now nearly developed into a polished starter IMO. After which rookie 6th rd. draft choice Chris Jones stands an excellent chance to back-up Earl & rotate. In fact I'm almost certain Texans will go heavy @ DE over nose, several which could also kick inside, Jared Crick, Sunny Harris or David Hunter. That would effectively give Texans five possible combinations inside.
also everyone on that line practices & learns from him, elevating their games as well.
tricky business to project just pure nose guards because they flip & rotate so much. Mitchell is the clear front runner, young & now nearly developed into a polished starter IMO. After which rookie 6th rd. draft choice Chris Jones stands an excellent chance to back-up Earl & rotate. In fact I'm almost certain Texans will go heavy @ DE over nose, several which could also kick inside, Jared Crick, Sunny Harris or David Hunter. That would effectively give Texans five possible combinations inside.
I like what you've done. Sorry I hadn't jumped in earlier, but you make a pretty good argument.
Fuggit... your numbers show he's been productive in the past. More productive than we perceive. That's good enough.
He's also being promoted to starter, in Wade's eyes, he's earned the spot. Imo, we need to forget what we know about the traditional NT & try to understand what Wade is doing.
That's the way I read it.
I can't wait to see what the defense will look like with Cushing & Reed behind him instead of tweedle-dee & tweedle-dum
deucetx
Rookie
I wouldn't put that as part of your equation on the NT because they played about half the defensive snaps. They weren't part of the issue in those games. I think it has been well documented that Wade does generally not keep the NT out there on passing downs/spread formations and our worse defensive efforts came against the spread meaning the NT doesn't have that much of an impact.
For example, one of those games was Jacksonville part deux. Total defensive snaps was 68. Earl Mitchell only had 36 of those snaps (4 went to McClain)
Detroit was the other. Total defensive snaps around 91. Mitchell was in 41 (McClain 2). In fact, our 3rd safety was in more with Demps in there for 51 snaps. It's one reason why I tell others that the Swearinger pick is more important than they realize.
That means the position has less impact than most are making it out to be. Important? Course as every position is. At the same time not like a team can afford to pay every spot so you have weigh the importance of each in your scheme. For ours and against todays NFL the NT is not that impactful unless Wade switches things up which I am guessing would take one hell of a NT to make happen. Those aren't easy to find (or should we say afford lol).
Heck, against the Packers and Patriots part deux we didn't even start the NT. We immediately leaped into Wade's passing defense. So I'm okay with Mitchell as being 'servicable' because that is about all he is at this point. At the same time we could use something behind him as we have saw little of McClain to say much. I'm thinking Crick may get in there more than we think.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
Chickens and eggs. Is the reason why a true DT doesn't see the field a ton because a different defensive lineup gives them a better chance to win? Does this create problems for the Texans against more balanced offenses where you can't load up on either the run or the pass?
My greater point was just some were predicting Earl Mitchell would have a breakout season because he looks good. My blog post was, hey, he looked good going into OTAs last season too, but there is little reason to believe that all of a sudden Mitchell is going to be a player that we haven't seen in previous games.
Pro arguments for Mitchell improving?
More time with Cody gone.
Defensive linemen not named JJ Watt sometimes need more time to get better at what they do and become full growed mens.
Anti arguments for Mitchell improving?
His individual PFF numbers in limited time have stayed about the same the entire time he's been with the team.
If he was that good, he'd already be seeing the field more than he had.
In the games that Cody was out, the defense played poorly, and his individual numbers via PFF are sort of average.
Under Wade's defense, DTs can excel, make Pro Bowls. Nothing in EM's performance to date suggests that will happen.
Sometimes with more snaps, a player improves, but often it exposes their weaknesses unless they are an outstanding player.
I think the arguments for EM having a "breakout year" are wishful thinking. I think they may have a rotation of guys, and just hope that it isn't something that is exposed.
deucetx
Rookie
I doubt he'll have a breakout year as well but still not seeing where he has to. Just like you brought up the defense played poor when Cody was out but Cody could have been healthy it wouldn't have mattered. He wouldn't have been on the field anyway but partially. The NT is not out there for the spread formations so his presence would have meant little hence what I disagree on. Plus Mitchell's grades in those games were actually positive. In fact, he has had more positive graded games than Cody.
Even in 2011 in a possible 1168 defensive snaps Cody got only 451. I would say the fact time was shared means Mitchell actually did show the coaches something otherwise he wouldn't have seen so much time. When Cody was down did Mitchell have to share time? Nope because no one else warranted it except spot duty.
Since we're talking PFF:
2011 Cody ranked 62nd among DT/NT Overall grade -2.8
2011 Mitchell ranked 64th among DT/NT Overall grade -3.4
Not much difference there.
2012 Cody ranked 63rd Overall grade -4.0
2012 Mitchell ranked 47th Overall grade 1.8
So actually Mitchell's PFF grade did improve unless you're going back to the time before Wade. I'm only focusing on the time with Wade here in a new defensive approach and a coach who actually knows how to tie his shoes unlike the previous incarnations we had here lol.
In any case it illustrates an actual improvement on Mitchell's part. Plus I guess I just find the whole Cody thing a reach. He wasn't good. He was a below average guy in this defense that had a moment here and there so I just can't see how Mitchell can't do the same thing. He already has actually so to me the only difference is we had two servicable guys at the spot where as now we only have one that we know of.
Guess comes down to how you want to view it. Are you looking for a heavy impact guy or someone servicable? Cody was only servicable and I am probably being generous saying that. I don't expect Mitchell to be anything more than that. Anything more is gravy which always is a good topping.
Anyway, nice talk! Feel like I drag it off topic lol. Thanks for the updates from all by the way.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
Yeah, I think we mostly agree. That there isn't going to be a breakout Mitchell season. The reason why I mentioned it was because I heard some media person talk about how great Mitchell looked and breakout season this and that, and I was wondering where that was coming from.
I think the idea of two serviceable guys to one serviceable guy and a bunch of question marks is a concern.
Can't find the quote, but I also believe that Wade talked about the difficulty of having fewer guys available for a defensive rotation when Cody was out. And that they were better when he became available.
tru80texan
Waterboy
Kind of off subject, but ties into the d-line rotation. What are your impressions of Delano Johnson at DE thus far? I have read that he is impressing some w/ his transition, but do you believe he's capable of earning a roster spot? I realize the pads will show the true story, but if Delano gets into the DE rotation could they possibly use Crick at NT since he is being reported to have beefed up to 295lbs & some have repotted that he could be used there in a pinch. Crick could lessen the dependence on a rookie in the rotation at NT.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
I haven't spent the time I want watching the dlinemen because I've focused more on QB, WR, secondary. Will work on next week.
I'm guessing it will hard to say definitively in shorts. With WR/secondary, you can gauge play a little easier because a lot of what they do isn't supposed to have a ton of contact.
Brandon420tx
Flounder
I'm not really worried about Earl Mitchell or whoever ends up lining up at NT. It wasn't inside that JJ needed help from to avoid double and triple teams, it was outside. The OLB's really let us down last year
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
Have to run away soon, but my Day 3 report is fixing to go live on the Chron website. Waiting for editor. Maybe up within 30 minutes?
Later!
Later!
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Would that be the same Wade that started Cody over Mitchell all that time? Neither are all that great, but are stop-gap until the Texans no longer have more pressing needs.
Definitely onboard with this. Barwin was "ineffective" at best.
Kind of contrasting statements.
Barwin did nothing all last year and yet no one else was really given a chance. I understand Merciless was a rookie last year, but he didn't start taking reps away from Barwin really...No one else got a chance either.
I think Braman can do more on the edge that Barwin or Reed and he's not really been given a chance until this off season.
Barwin and Reed did almost nothing last year and no one really got a chance to replace them.
Shilo Keo was kept on the roster over Troy Nolan. Yet when we picked up Nolan again due to Demps injury, Nolan played over Keo.
There are a lot of politics on a football team and sometimes there are more talented players waiting in the weeds that just aren't given the chance. We see it all the time.
Now, I know Earl has played some, but he hasn't been the man at the position before. The fact that he wasn't given a chance to start ahead of Cody is hardly evidence that he's not a better player or won't become a better player now that he will get more snaps.
And if you're going to look at the coaches actions as evidence, who exactly is your starting NT right now? Cody was not brought back and no one else of significance was added. They didn't draft one high in the draft. Didn't sign any Free agents.
My opinion is that Earl will be a good NT. A plus player. I think Cody held the point better than Mitchell because he had better leverage. But I don't thin Earl sucks in that regard. But in every other aspect, I think Earl is superior. He's a far better pass rusher, and he's much better at making plays down the line. He's more active at the position than Cody was. I don't know if he's going to be a super star....But I do think he's going to be good.
The bolded is pretty good evidence that he wasn't a better player LAST year than Cody. As for the rest, I'm certain Mitchell IS the current starter, but that doesn't mean he's improved appreciably yet. The fact that they didn't sign an NT or pick up a good veteran one in free agency is proof only that the Texans had other higher priorities.
I think you're equating roster / contract moves with who gets to start on your final 53. They aren't remotely similar. Do we really think the RT rotation last year was more effective without Winston?
No, that's evidence that the coaches wanted Cody to start because they felt like he was the better option to start.
You think when Arian was not playing when he got here the other backs on the roster were better than him? Or were they who the coaches trusted more at that time?
I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden when Arian played against NE he magically became a better player than the guys that were ahead of him all year.
That's the point. The coaches are wrong sometimes. Just because they feel they have other viable options or just because they start another guy doesn't mean that it's the correct decision.
That's exactly my point. The fact that Cody started over Mitchell proves nothing other than the coaches that makes those decisions felt Cody should be the starter last year.
Sometimes when you are too close to a situation you make decisions on other things beyond actual performance.
Yes, that's called being better.
Evidently, you missed the point entirely. That confusing player effectiveness with roster / contract moves. Hard choices have to be made sometimes. I seriously doubt the coaches were telling Rick Smith "Cut Winston, we'll be better off without him".
No, I think I outlined it correctly.
Evidently you're missing the point. And I like how you completely ignored my Arian Foster example as well as countless other examples that I shouldn't have to name of better players sitting behind players that started.
It's the same reason you have good players taken in the draft in the later rounds and top players taken that are bust. The same reason you have undrafted Free agents go on to have great careers.
Your logic is silly. I can see if you want to debate actual points regarding their performances, but resorting to the "well the coaches didn't start him" card is kinda weak. This is a message board. We're all aware that the coaches have more information and knowledge than the rest of us, but that doesn't mean their moves are gospel.
Right. And with the defense going into the 3rd season under Wade, the NT position has not been a high priority. So as a fan, I'm not going to get that worried about a position the team is not overly concerned with. The Texans have not been dominated on the ground, and the NT comes off the field on passing downs.
Having said that, I have a good feeling about this Chris Jones. Maybe he will be what so many are looking for at NT?
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
We've had this conversation before but...
Arian is a HORRIBLE example.
He, himself, said that he was in a bad place after not being drafted. When he was put on the practice squad, he gave up and stopped really trying because he thought he didn't have a real chance of playing.
Then when he saw a PS player on MNF get called up, he had a talk with Kubiak and he rededicated himself. As the season went on, he learned the playbook and when he was ready, they started giving him some snaps.
Was Arian more talented than Chris Brown and Ryan Moats? Yeah. Was he ready to play? No.
Also, you make it sound like Arian was just put in the last game of the season and that's not what happened. He was activated for the Titans. Then he saw some action against the Seahawks and he didn't look good. Then they put him in against the Rams and what did he do? He fumbled.
THEN he had a good day (97 yards, 1 TD) against the Dolphins and he finished up with a good day against the Patriots.
They worked him in slowly because he wasn't ready. Not because of some bias against rookies.
I think that makes Arian the perect example. Who knows why Mitchell didn't start? Maybe Wade had it against him or eating the last chicken wing. Maybe he didn't "push" enough.
I heard Kollar say even though Mitchell didn't start, he had as many snaps as Cody, meaning they probably saw it as a 1a & 1b kind of thing.
No coach is perfect. I think he is gambling with Mitchell and the NT position as a whole and there is a better than good chance that its going to backfire on him.
This whole "the NT comes out on passing downs" craze is just plain silly. Did Jay Ratliff come out on passing downs? I guarantee you if Wade had a really good NT he wouldn't come out on passing downs. The fact that Wade pulls them here just shows that our NT's (Cody and Mitchell) are nothing more than serviceable.
He'll Mitchell 's best attribute is supposed to be his ability to penetrate. Yet he comes out on passing downs. You guys drink your Mitchell juice all you want. I'm going to wait till be shows me something consistently in games before I stop worrying about the middle of our defense.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Arian is a horrible example of someone who should have been playing earlier in the season.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Whoa..... not drinking any Mitchell juice.
Yes, Mitchell comes out on passing downs, because he is not as good a pass rusher as JjWatt & AntonioSmith.
Another thing, with the NFL going to more of a passing game, RBs becoming a dime/dozen commodity, & the way our offense generally took away the opposing teams running game, I think the prototypical NT will continue to be very low on our priority list.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
Curious, who threw the pass that would of ended in a 10,000 dollar fine? I know Schaub seemed to throw a fair share of those passes last season. Poor OD took a licking on the majority of them.
I wonder how they can blame the pass or the QB.
Don't lead with the head. Don't hit the receiver in the head.
No $10,000 fine.
Of course you do and those poor coaches were just silly to give him 10% less snaps than Cody.
You're subscribing to the 'conspiracy theory' of they just didn't like him then, but love him now?
:kubepalm:
I'll be pulling for whoever is on the field for the Texans, but try and sell the "better player" B.S. somewhere else, I'm not buying...and neither were the guys who matter.
If only it were that simple with the "defenseless receiver" rules. Ed Reed was fined not $10K, but $55K for THIS hit. He lead with his shoulder. Why is it the DBs fault that the WR helmet comes down AFTER the hit?
Just want to let you know that Mitchell has been WAY MORE productive than Ratliff through their first three years in the league.
And a hair better than Jamal Williams with the Chargers.
Still can't blame it on the pass or the QB. Poor officiating.... but not on the pass.
drs23
Veteran
...and remind me where Cody is now? And why is another player wearing his ex-number now? I predict no drop off in NT production and possibly an increase. We'll all see together.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
FWIW, Ratliff came to the Cowboys during a 3-4 D transition (2005) after 45years of a 4-3. On top of that, he had just prior transitioned in his senior year from a 4-3 DE to a 4-3 DT. I would suspect that there was some significant "acclimation" going on during those first couple of years with the Cowboys.
tru80texan
Waterboy
Answers:
1) On the street.
2) Refer back to answer #1
I too believe there will be no drop off in production at NT w/ Mitchell & very easily could be an increase. Cody, IMO, was every bit the Kevin Walter of the defense w/ lackluster production & constantly had his small contributions over exaggerated & glorified.
Im not saying Mitchell will be an All Pro or Pro Bowler, but he is young w/ some potential & obviously has earned an opportunity to be a starter w/ those in charge.
I will miss "On the Nose". Cody was funny.
Doc, I don't see how the Cowboys' change in D scheme has anything to do with a rookie.
Mitchell was recruited as a TE.
He didn't move to the D until his Jr year.
He did not play much at the nose in the Wildcats 43 defense
Most often, he lined up as a 3-tech Undertackle in college.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Interestingly, Ratliff was also recruited as a TE and made the transition to DE in his sophomore year. But virtually all of his junior year was screwed up by an early high ankle sprain which made him miss 4 1/2 games only to come back to be used sparingly as rotational DE piece. His senior year was his only year to really gain experience at DT.......a 4-3 position in which he shined.
I guess I brought this up in the context that position changes and scheme changes can take time with some players over others, and be kinder to some and rather "cruel" to others.
It is difficult for me to see Mitchell used in the same sentence as Ratliff as an interchangeable part. But, from all looks, it appears that Wade is Hell-bent to make it work.
After Cody suffered his original disc injury, I suggested that without long-term rest and rehab, he could very well be dealing with this problem throughout the season. I feel that if Cody was not hampered throughout the 2012 season with a disc problem, he could have developed into a better fit than Mitchell can be expected to. We will all have to wait and see. But meanwhile, I will keep hoping that something more promising reveals itself between now and the beginning of the season.
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Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
Not certain, so I didn't say it. Not sure if I knew for sure I'd even want to say because people blow up selective things bigger than just one play which seems a little unfair.
Will say that JJo was plaguing Schaub on Day 3. Busted up plays to both AJ and Hopkins.
OTOH, Schaub to Hopkins 30 yards down field was a thing to behold. Didn't think Hopkins was going to get it but I love how when the ball is in the air, he just has more want to for it. He attacks the ball, doesn't just wait for it.
It's weird to talk of wide receivers being aggressive, but with his hands/body positioning, he collects the ball as soon as it is anywhere near him.
(I know there was a Chron article talking about how Martin and Jean are better this year. And they are. And that they are ahead of Hopkins in the playbook. And they are. But Hopkins is just such a fun receiver to watch in ways that the collection of WRs post-AJ aren't. Both AJ and Hopkins are the kind of receivers who do stuff in practice that make you go whoa a couple of times a practice. There's a reason why Hopkins is playing with the 1s--learn up faster, and because whoa that upside. Love watching him play.)
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
b0ng
Bad Hombre
Pat Starr's assessment of OTA's Day 3
http://www.stateofthetexans.com/texans-otas-day-three-recap/
I think this is a quality writer and is a good twitter follow
@PatDStat
http://www.stateofthetexans.com/texans-otas-day-three-recap/
I think this is a quality writer and is a good twitter follow
@PatDStat
linkage
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ed-off-from-texans-practice-with-calf-injury/
does not appear to be serious at the current moment.